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| == Rename to "small bird" == | | == Rename to "small bird" == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|6-1|Rename}}
| | {{TPP}} |
| Our friends here are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (pages 69 142, 249). Because this text is a direct translation of a Japanese book and it is equally as justifiable to translate [[Small bird#Names in other languages|their Japanese name]] as "little bird", I thought this could have just been a preference of the book's translators. However, I recently noticed that these birds are explicitly named in ''Super Mario Odyssey'', in the mission "[[List of Power Moons in Bowser's Kingdom#Small Bird in Bowser's Castle|Small Bird in Bowser's Castle]]". | | Our friends here are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (pages 69 142, 249). Because this text is a direct translation of a Japanese book and it is equally as justifiable to translate [[Little bird#Names in other languages|their Japanese name]] as "little bird", I thought this could have just been a preference of the book's translators. However, I recently noticed that these birds are explicitly named in ''Super Mario Odyssey'', in the mission "[[List of Power Moons in Bowser's Kingdom#Small Bird in Bowser's Castle|Small Bird in Bowser's Castle]]". |
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| In all other missions that involve striking a bird for a Power Moon, the general term "bird" is used, but this sometimes includes avifauna that are clearly not the same thing as the little birds - namely hawks, seagulls, doves, pigeons, penguins and the small UFOs. They have different body shapes, and are not recognized as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey''. So I think "bird" is the overarching term for all of these animal characters. But "''small'' bird"? That's specific to the subject of this article, and I believe it is the current, preferred English name. | | In all other missions that involve striking a bird for a Power Moon, the general term "bird" is used, but this sometimes includes avifauna that are clearly not the same thing as the little birds - namely hawks, seagulls, doves, pigeons, penguins and the small UFOs. They have different body shapes, and are not recognized as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey''. So I think "bird" is the overarching term for all of these animal characters. But "''small'' bird"? That's specific to the subject of this article, and I believe it is the current, preferred English name. |
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| #{{User|Somethingone}} If this is the official in-game name, then it makes sense to go with it. Best to be consistent with our policy. | | #{{User|Somethingone}} If this is the official in-game name, then it makes sense to go with it. Best to be consistent with our policy. |
| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} We are sorry to the Small Birds that we've been using the wrong name for them this entire time... <small>no joke, we have this article perma-watchlisted just because we love it when this gets a new picture in the gallery.</small> We would also be fine with Small bird as a mere redirect, but we think this just makes sense for consistency's sake--no matter how small the subject matter is, we should be treating it with the same scrutiny and quality as the rest of our articles, even if the previous name is more poetic sounding in our opinion. | | #{{User|Camwoodstock}} We are sorry to the Small Birds that we've been using the wrong name for them this entire time... <small>no joke, we have this article perma-watchlisted just because we love it when this gets a new picture in the gallery.</small> We would also be fine with Small bird as a mere redirect, but we think this just makes sense for consistency's sake--no matter how small the subject matter is, we should be treating it with the same scrutiny and quality as the rest of our articles, even if the previous name is more poetic sounding in our opinion. |
| #{{User|Ahemtoday}} Seems like a pretty cut-and-dry case to me.
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| #{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
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| ===Leave it as is=== | | ===Leave it as is=== |
| #{{User|Mister Wu}} Based on what emerged from the comments. These birds have had a consistent design across many games, and are not what we have in Bowser’s Kingdom. There are small differences among the many small birds of Odyssey, with the little birds being one of them, so we should first ask ourselves a different question: do we want to make this page a page about all the small birds or do we want it to deal with just the iconic ones that appear in several games, with the same consistent design? Worth noting how the Twitter post dealing with Bonneton’s little birds - that are instead the familiar little birds we saw in the other games wearing a hat - indeed used the term “little birds”.
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| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
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| Anyhow I'm abstaining from voting as it feels like a very very hairsplit decision so the impact either way is insignificant. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:38, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | | Anyhow I'm abstaining from voting as it feels like a very very hairsplit decision so the impact either way is insignificant. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:38, April 5, 2024 (EDT) |
| :Oh also "seagulls". D:< Hmph!! {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:40, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::This is one of those things where Nintendo made a decision to annoy me specifically. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:50, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
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| I'm not sure how significant this is, but I think it's important to note that the small birds in Bowser's Kingdom are NOT the same kind of bird as the little dove-like birds we see across the Mushroom Kingdom. They do have the same shape, but their feathers are brown and black, making them resemble little sparrows. If we end up moving this page with ''this'' mission as the clincher, maybe it's important that we cover ''all'' small birds across ''Super Mario Odyssey'' in this article (as well as mentioning the butterflies from the Lost Kingdom, and the UFO """birds""" from the Moon Kingdom), instead of only some of them. {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:43, April 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The impression I have from ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' is that every kingdom has ''a'' bird, but not all of these animals are considered ''the'' small bird, if that makes sense. The top hat-wearing birds from the Cap Kingdom, the {{wp|scarlet macaw}}s from the Cascade Kingdom, {{wp|budgerigar}}s from the Sand Kingdom, pink birds from the Lake Kingdom, {{wp|blue jay}}s from the Wooded Kingdom, salt-covered birds from the Luncheon Kingdom, {{wp|Eurasian tree sparrow}}s from Bowser's Kingdom, and traditional white birds from the Mushroom Kingdom are all small birds. I think they should all be covered here.
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| :Though mechanical equivalencies, the avifauna present in the other kingdoms (the doves from the Cloud Kingdom, pigeons from the Metro Kingdom, [[Seagull|gulls]] from the Seaside Kingdom, [[penguin]]s from the Snow Kingdom, mini-Torkdrifts from the Moon Kingdom, and [[Butterfly|butterflies]] from the Lost Kingdom) are not considered small birds, and should have their own articles. (Three of them already do.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:53, April 6, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Mister Wu, I am not sure if the birds from ''Super Mario 64'', the parrots from ''Sunshine'' or any other animals in games released before ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' are ''the'' small bird, and I am not personally invested in reducing them into a generic "bird" article. However, I do feel pretty confidant that the sparrows in Bowser's Kingdom and the traditional white birds from ''3D Land'', ''3D World'', and ''Odyssey'' are intended to be the literal same thing, even if they are derived from different real world species of animals. That was just a design choice to compliment the respective kingdom's topography, similar to how every kingdom has its own [[Flower (environmental object)|vegetation]] that are all the same thing even though they reflect a wide diversity of real-world species.
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| I should note that the blue jays from the Wooded Kingdom are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' - they are never referred to as the species they clearly are based on, nor are they ever generically just called a "bird", so the impression I have is that it is a literal translation of the same Japanese name used for the white birds of older games. That tells me they are recognized as the same subject. If these blue jays are "small birds", then Bowser's Kingdom's sparrows of the same name are certainly "small birds". That's at least my view. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:01, April 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I’m not arguing whether the small birds take inspiration from the little birds, but I see it as an expansion of the concept: in the Mushroom Kingdom and Bonneton we have the familiar little birds, that then ''Odyssey'' reveals being part of a bigger family of small birds. It should be noted that this page deals with the little birds because they are recurring and even had gameplay value in at least one game. They definitely deserve an individual page. Now, we might argue that there’s simply too little material to make a page about the broader small birds, and at this point we can decide to make this a page about the small birds as well. Absolutely nothing wrong with this, but I think at this point we should indeed vote on this intermediate step before jumping to conclusions and already making the rename. This is my position, and sorry if it wasn’t clear.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:13, April 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Thank you for clarifying your position. It's appreciated :) I I respect your perspective. But I do think ''Super Mario Odyssey'' considers the small birds in the Mushroom Kingdom, Cascade Kingdom etc. to all be one in the same, not just conceptually-related but distinct birds, and it consequently would be more accurate to keep them all in one article together.
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| ::I'm not sure how helpful this is, but it is noteworthy that the posts dedicated to the small birds from Fossil Falls, Tostarena, Steam Gardens, and Mount Volbono on the [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/switch/aaaca/archives/world.html?page=1 Odyssey Journal] refer to them all as {{hover|小鳥|ko tori}} ("small bird"), whereas a post dedicated to the pigeons in the Metro Kingdom simply refers to them as {{hover|鳥|tori}} ("bird"). To me, this name unifies these specific birds together, distinguishes them from the other avifauna in the game, and is directly shared with the white crested birds in the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'', suggesting they are one in the same. The use of 小鳥 for the small birds in Tostarena, Steam Gardens, and Mount Volbono mirrors the localization choices made in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (and presumably the original Japanese text), where there was plenty of opportunity to have adopted more discrete names for these animals, as was done with penguins, gulls, doves, and pigeons in the same book. Not these guys though - they are all explicitly named "small birds". In my experience on the wiki, we have lumped other subjects together that were previously seen as different because they share the same name in Japanese, and it seems inconsistent to not do the same here. (With regards to ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'', they are demonstrated to even share the same name in English.)
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| ::I would also say that the small birds in Bonneton are probably not supposed to be the same literal species as the one from the Mushroom Kingdom. Their differences are more apparent [https://www.models-resource.com/nintendo_switch/supermarioodyssey/model/66702/ here], where they are side-by-side. Their body shapes are different. Their beak shapes and sizes are different. The color of their eyes differ, and even the shade of white differs. If they were suppose to be the same literal species, then I don't understand why they would have changed so many subtle details and not just include a hat. So I would think splitting each small bird into separate articles would necessitate splitting the Bonneton birds off too, and I am not sure that is the most accurate direction to take this. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:41, April 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::While the bit about the Bonneton birds is valid, I think these two bits of information from the site you linked clarify how the different small birds are viewed:
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| ::: 砂の国「アッチーニャ」に生息する黄緑色の小鳥です。街中や砂漠のオアシスに暮らしています。群れで集まっている所には、何か秘密が…？
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| :::Here they are stating that they live in towns and desert oasis, so it’s pretty clear that they are talking about the specific variant of Tostarena, this one is even clearer:
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| ::: 滝の国「ダイナフォー」に生息する小鳥。都市の国に生息する鳥とは異なり、カラフルなのが特徴です。ZZZ…
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| :::Here they clearly say that the small birds of Fossil Falls are peculiar because unlike the birds of the cities they are colorful.
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| :::Ultimately, like I said before, the various small birds aren’t seen as a single species, but rather as various species that all behave similarly, like the little birds of the Mushroom Kingdom. You can see those as counterparts.
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| :::For this reason I would have preferred if we made first this page a page about the various small birds - since honestly I doubt we could make more than a stub about the ''Super Mario Odyssey''’s concept of small birds - and then the name change would have been consequential, with the introductory paragraph noting how the small birds of the Mushroom Kingdom are recurring and were often referred to as '''little birds''' in English material.
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| :::Not a big deal, just what I think to be a more direct M.O., so that the indirect purpose of the proposal - making this a page about the various small birds we see in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' - was more apparent. Indeed, all the case you listed in the body of the proposal aren’t about the little birds of the Mushroom Kingdom, so at this point, with the official site confirming they are different species, if we were to be pedantic we arguably shouldn’t rename the page if we didn’t intend to make this a page about the small birds.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 04:51, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::I mean, I would be fine with dropping this proposal if you feel this is the wider discussion we should have first. I can see the benefit of having dedicated articles for each small bird. I am sorry if it seemed like I was trying to Trojan horse this proposal - the way the page was already written and the way its [[Gallery:Little bird|gallery]] page was laid out left me under the impression that this article was already written with other small birds in mind. My intent was just to change the name to what I believe the preferred name is in ''Super Mario Odyssey''. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:21, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::My thoughts on this are still the same as they were 7 years ago: I think that indeed all the small "fly away when approached" (and otherwise generic) birds should be treated as the same subject regardless of design, including the [[Bird (Super Mario Sunshine)|ones from ''Super Mario Sunshine'']]. ''Odyssey'' just clarified that that is the correct decision by giving multiple designs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:27, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::To be fully fair, the behavior of the small birds is still that of the little birds, and the appearance of the little birds continues to be very consistent. They’re a very clear distinguishing element of the modern games. With that being said, we could indeed make a proposal to decide if we want this page to only cover the Mushroom Kingdom little birds or if we want to include the ''Odyssey'' small birds or, as a third choice, include even the ''Sunshine'' birds. In my opinion, it’s not a big deal if we just keep this proposal, in case we’ll make a second proposal afterwards, so in the meantime you might gather some material to see if indeed Nintendo wanted to make a connection between the ''Sunshine'' birds and the ''Odyssey'' small birds - after all Isle Delfino was originally planned for ''Odyssey'' so there might be some leftover material about a possible “bridge” between the two.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:22, April 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Expand or split ==
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| {{talk}}
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| As it currently stands, this covers only the SM3DL-derived birds... except it also covers all of the other ambient small-sized birds in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' despite their own variation being even wider than the pre-SM3DL birds. At this point, I think it would be best either to make an article for all ambient birds and have this be treated as a variant, or retool this page into being about all ambient birds and noting that SM3DL established a consistent design for them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:56, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| :We're not entirely sure about a split, given that if memory serves, the ''Odyssey'' small bird variants all operate roughly the same anyways. There's not much a difference between the ones in the [[Luncheon Kingdom]] and the ones in the [[Cascade Kingdom]] beyond aesthetic. A split like this would only make sense in a world where we do things like split the multicolored [[Koopa Troopa]]s, and even then, this would have to contend with not having the mechanical differences those have. Incidentally, what ambient birds are even in the series pre-''3D Land'' codifying a design for them? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:00, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::[[Bird (Yoshi's Island)|These]], [[Bird (Super Mario Sunshine)|these]], the ones outside Peach's castle in SM64/DS (which gets a model reuse in NSMB), the original SMW2YI, there's probably others. Can also count [[Bird (Mario's Time Machine)|this]]. I'm not even counting [[seagull]]s, which do have their own page with pretty much full coverage. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::We don't think the ''Sunshine'' ones should count since they serve a non-ambient gameplay function (namely, the non-Green ones guard various collectibles), and we should ESPECIALLY not count the ''Time Machine'' ones; that's just an outright enemy. We would rather not turn this article into a generic catch-all bin for "anytime a small bird appears in the series", instead of being about the established entities from ''3D Land'' onwards; otherwise, this article would become incredibly muddy in what it's actually about. It's like the distinction between a [[Moo Moo]] and just an ordinary cow. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:11, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::::..."Moo Moos" ''are'' ordinary cows, as confirmed by ''Mario Kart World''. And I don't think "creature that appears in a cutscene to take away a thing you put in the wrong place" really counts as an "enemy." And plenty of ambient creatures have served a variety of purposes, like the aforementioned seagulls being platforms in ''Wario Land II'', not to mention the various things on [[butterfly]], which is usually treated equal to birds in games that have them (including ''Sunshine''), or [[frog]] and [[fish]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:20, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::::When we say "the difference between a Moo Moo and an ordinary cow", we mean how stuff like the cow in the [[Community Service]] microgame aren't included on the Moo Moo page, because that's stylistically a different cow altogether. We offer similar distinction between generic penguins and the [[Penguin]]s that first appeared in ''Super Mario 64''. If you wouldn't put a random cow that appears in a microgame on the Moo Moo page, and you wouldn't put a random penguin that appears in a microgame on the Penguin page, we don't see a reason to put a random enemy from ''Mario's Time Machine'' on this page. (We kind of feel like the way we handle generic subjects as a whole is in need of a rework, as it's currently rather arbitrary; cough cough. [[Tornado]]. That's neither here nor there, though.) {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:27, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::::::I have little to no knowledge on microgames, so I don't have any opinion on that matter. Regardless, in 2017 [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Bird_(Super_Mario_Sunshine)&oldid=2244171 I made the "bird (species)" page be relatively comprehensive], it was truncated and split due to the generic subject policy of the time, and now we have pages for things like [[fish]] that wouldn't fly back then but clearly do now. And I ''did'' bring up the possibility of expanding the penguin page's coverage to be more thorough on its talk page recently. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:30, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| :::::::Strongly against adjusting the scope of this page. The bird design introduced in 3D Land is obviously intended by Nintendo to be a specific, recurring thing and shouldn't be lumped in with the rest. Even the Odyssey birds are directly confirmed to be variants of these by the Odyssey artbook. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:54, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::::::::If they're more different, than this manner of coverage objectively does not make any logical sense. My preference would probably be to create a new article for the non-recurring designs (including the SMW and Sunshine ones), but I think the miscellaneous ''Odyssey'' ones like the macaw and bluejay should also be in that article rather than this article. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:09, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
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| I understand the desire to have a neutral space to discuss the other birds, and I would support an article of that ilk, but I think the small bird is a discrete subject that should continue to have its own article, and I say this as someone who supports including the kingdom-specific iterations of "small birds" in this article. ''Super Mario Odyssey'' is a tactile game in part because different kingdoms secretly have the same objects, just with different coats of paint to match the local topography, and that is what is done for the small birds. The article does not even include every bird in the game - only the ones recognized explicitly as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey''. Not all birds in the game go by that name, and this reinforces the idea that small birds are a specific type of bird in terms of nomenclature, application, and gameplay design in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, and I think it would misrepresentative of these games to lump all little avifauna into one "bird" article. Not all birds are "small birds," and I would rather we not act otherwise. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:00, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
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| :I know there's the large "traveling" birds that are not included, though the SM64 and Sunshine ones feel like a pre-codifying version of the same subject in my opinion at any rate, as they are ontologically no more different from a gameplay perspective than the macaws and bluejays. Regardless, yes, as I previously stated, I would be fine with having an article for the more variable designs from previous games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:05, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::For lack of a better word, I do think "ambient subjects" are worthy of archival. They help contextualize the spaces the player is in and they sometimes do have impacts on gameplay. I think I would personally support a [[bird (environmental object)]] article, and then just keep the small bird article as a variant of it. Maybe they can be briefly mentioned in the bird (environmental object) article, but more dedicated coverage is best kept here. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:55, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
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