Editing Talk:Shadow (character)
From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.
| Latest revision | Your text | ||
| Line 48: | Line 48: | ||
== Rename to "Shadow" == | == Rename to "Shadow" == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
Okay, hopefully this is better than my first time around. Upon reflection and reading people's comments on this, I think it would be best to rename this page to just "Shadow," or maybe "Shadow the Hedgehog." Based off of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Decide how to handle identifiers for non-Mario characters|this proposal]], Shadow would get priority over the current [[Shadow]] page, which would be renamed to "Shadow (enemy)" if the first option for this proposal passes. I still believe that the name "Shadow (character)" is really generic, because all of the other "shadow" characters covered on this wiki are video game characters as well. He is also mostly referred to as just "Shadow" both in the ''Super Mario'' series and his home series. Renaming this page would keep it consistent with how he is referred to in most video games, and it would also line up with the other ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' characters' current page titles on MarioWiki. | |||
Okay, hopefully this is better than my first time around. Upon reflection and reading people's comments on this, I think it would be best to rename this page to just "Shadow," or maybe "Shadow the Hedgehog." Based off of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Decide how to handle identifiers for non-Mario characters|this proposal]], Shadow would get priority over the current [[ | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|FanOfRosalina2007}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|FanOfRosalina2007}}<br> | ||
| Line 72: | Line 71: | ||
====Keep as is==== | ====Keep as is==== | ||
#{{User|Arend}} Recently, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Decide how to handle identifiers for non-Mario characters|a proposal]] (in regards of how to handle crossover characters and identifiers) has passed with a vast majority for the outcome to prioritize identifiers for only less culturally-prominent subject and give priority to the most prominent one. Renaming this article to the proposed {{fake link|Shadow (''Sonic the Hedgehog'')}}, ''literally goes against that''. If anything, this article should be renamed to just {{fake link|Shadow}}, while [[Shadow | #{{User|Arend}} Recently, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Decide how to handle identifiers for non-Mario characters|a proposal]] (in regards of how to handle crossover characters and identifiers) has passed with a vast majority for the outcome to prioritize identifiers for only less culturally-prominent subject and give priority to the most prominent one. Renaming this article to the proposed {{fake link|Shadow (''Sonic the Hedgehog'')}}, ''literally goes against that''. If anything, this article should be renamed to just {{fake link|Shadow}}, while [[Shadow|the current article with that name]] should be renamed to {{fake link|Shadow (enemy)}} or {{fake link|Shadow (''Super Mario RPG'')}}, because according to that proposal outcome, one of the most prominent ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' characters that makes a playable appearance in every single ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games'' entry from the start clearly should have priority over a random ''Super Mario RPG'' enemy that only appeared in that one game and its remake. And so should Jet the Hawk have priority over [[Jet|a random golfer from ''Advance Tour'']], btw. | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} The current name perfectly follows [[MarioWiki:Naming#Shared titles|identifier rules]] - in fact, it already did even before the proposal Arend is talking about, as this is the only character using the title "Shadow" on this wiki. The highest priority identifier in policy is "type of thing" (character in this case), and since that already adequately distinguishes the subject, we have no need to make the identifier more specific than it needs to be. <s>The argument that this could "cause confusion" is also weak in my opinion - no one will look up "Shadow character", and if they look up "Shadow" they get taken to the Mario RPG enemy's page with its handy [[Shadow (disambiguation)|disambiguation]] at the top. "[[Shadow Characters]]" is an especially weak argument as it's an unofficial name and is a redirect anyway (to another unofficial name). Jet the Hawk also doesn't work as an argument - unlike Shadow, we can't use "character" for him since the other [[Jet]] is also a character.</s> Retracting those arguments as they were in reference to the original version of this proposal. | #{{User|Hewer}} The current name perfectly follows [[MarioWiki:Naming#Shared titles|identifier rules]] - in fact, it already did even before the proposal Arend is talking about, as this is the only character using the title "Shadow" on this wiki. The highest priority identifier in policy is "type of thing" (character in this case), and since that already adequately distinguishes the subject, we have no need to make the identifier more specific than it needs to be. <s>The argument that this could "cause confusion" is also weak in my opinion - no one will look up "Shadow character", and if they look up "Shadow" they get taken to the Mario RPG enemy's page with its handy [[Shadow (disambiguation)|disambiguation]] at the top. "[[Shadow Characters]]" is an especially weak argument as it's an unofficial name and is a redirect anyway (to another unofficial name). Jet the Hawk also doesn't work as an argument - unlike Shadow, we can't use "character" for him since the other [[Jet]] is also a character.</s> Retracting those arguments as they were in reference to the original version of this proposal. | ||
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}}Per all. | #{{User|DryBonesBandit}}Per all. | ||
| Line 100: | Line 99: | ||
:::::::::::Sure he's been Sonic the Hedgehog often in ''his'' games, but those aren't the games we're covering on this wiki. His trophies (which are actually just titled "Sonic" anyway), stickers, and spirits don't outweigh the name used for him as an actual playable character, both in Smash and (perhaps most importantly) in all the Mario & Sonic games. I'm not necessarily all for shorter names specifically, I'm just all for commonly used official names, the exact length of the name doesn't really matter to me as long as it's accurate to official sources (note that I supported [[Talk:The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens#Move to The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before it Happens (take two)|this proposal]]). And anyway, "Shadow (character)" (the name I actually think this article should use) is slightly shorter than "Shadow the Hedgehog", so the length differences aren't consistent enough to be a good argument. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:23, July 18, 2024 (EDT) | :::::::::::Sure he's been Sonic the Hedgehog often in ''his'' games, but those aren't the games we're covering on this wiki. His trophies (which are actually just titled "Sonic" anyway), stickers, and spirits don't outweigh the name used for him as an actual playable character, both in Smash and (perhaps most importantly) in all the Mario & Sonic games. I'm not necessarily all for shorter names specifically, I'm just all for commonly used official names, the exact length of the name doesn't really matter to me as long as it's accurate to official sources (note that I supported [[Talk:The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens#Move to The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before it Happens (take two)|this proposal]]). And anyway, "Shadow (character)" (the name I actually think this article should use) is slightly shorter than "Shadow the Hedgehog", so the length differences aren't consistent enough to be a good argument. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:23, July 18, 2024 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::I just checked my trophies in my Smash games. His trophies aren't actually titled "Sonic." They are "Sonic the Hedgehog." Also, if player names outweigh any other names then the princesses would not have "Princess" in their page titles and the Koopalings would just go by their first names. Also, it doesn't make much sense to shorten Sonic the Hedgehog (character) to just Sonic but keep his full name as a parenthetical. Even if you're referring to his series, the series name is often called just "Sonic" and every video game that includes "Sonic the Hedgehog" in the title would often have "the Hedgehog" omitted in conversation. Like Sonic the Hedgehog 2 would be referred to as Sonic 2. I remember a time when the Fire Emblem character Roy had his page titled {{fake link|Roy (Super Smash Bros. Melee)}} because Mario only met him in Melee at the time. He was later moved to {{fake link|Roy (Fire Emblem)}} some time before he was released as DLC for Smash for Wii U/3DS. At least the Fire Emblem series had been referred by name in Smash. But if Sonic the character was just Sonic, shouldn't the series with his exact same name also be just Sonic? Why not call this page {{fake link|Shadow (Sonic)}}? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:40, July 18, 2024 (EDT) | :::::::::::I just checked my trophies in my Smash games. His trophies aren't actually titled "Sonic." They are "Sonic the Hedgehog." Also, if player names outweigh any other names then the princesses would not have "Princess" in their page titles and the Koopalings would just go by their first names. Also, it doesn't make much sense to shorten Sonic the Hedgehog (character) to just Sonic but keep his full name as a parenthetical. Even if you're referring to his series, the series name is often called just "Sonic" and every video game that includes "Sonic the Hedgehog" in the title would often have "the Hedgehog" omitted in conversation. Like Sonic the Hedgehog 2 would be referred to as Sonic 2. I remember a time when the Fire Emblem character Roy had his page titled {{fake link|Roy (Super Smash Bros. Melee)}} because Mario only met him in Melee at the time. He was later moved to {{fake link|Roy (Fire Emblem)}} some time before he was released as DLC for Smash for Wii U/3DS. At least the Fire Emblem series had been referred by name in Smash. But if Sonic the character was just Sonic, shouldn't the series with his exact same name also be just Sonic? Why not call this page {{fake link|Shadow (Sonic)}}? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:40, July 18, 2024 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::::...I don't think so. The official title of the series is ''Sonic the Hedgehog,'' and it is used pretty much everywhere, including in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. When casually talking, people may refer to the ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' series as just ''Sonic,'' but this is supposed to be an encyclopedic wiki and encyclopedias usually use the full, official titles of subjects in this case. And I think I have an idea about what I'm going to do. I am totally up for renaming this page to "Shadow the Hedgehog" or even just "Shadow." Shadow (character) is ''super'' generic, because all of the other "shadow" characters covered on this wiki are characters too! He is referred to as "Shadow" more often in his home series, and he introduces himself as "Shadow" more often than he does "Shadow the Hedgehog" (in his debut game, he introduces himself to Eggman as just "Shadow," and that's only one example). Sonic, in contrast, tends to introduce or refer to himself as "Sonic the Hedgehog" WAY more often (''Sonic '06'' and ''Sonic Adventure 2'' being notable examples). So I don't think we should bring Sonic into this, as he does things differently than Shadow does. If we rename this page to "Shadow," it would be in line with pretty much all of the other ''Sonic'' characters, including Sonic himself. It would also comply with how Shadow's name is used in the ''Super Mario'' series. We can just rename the current [[ | :::::::::::::...I don't think so. The official title of the series is ''Sonic the Hedgehog,'' and it is used pretty much everywhere, including in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. When casually talking, people may refer to the ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' series as just ''Sonic,'' but this is supposed to be an encyclopedic wiki and encyclopedias usually use the full, official titles of subjects in this case. And I think I have an idea about what I'm going to do. I am totally up for renaming this page to "Shadow the Hedgehog" or even just "Shadow." Shadow (character) is ''super'' generic, because all of the other "shadow" characters covered on this wiki are characters too! He is referred to as "Shadow" more often in his home series, and he introduces himself as "Shadow" more often than he does "Shadow the Hedgehog" (in his debut game, he introduces himself to Eggman as just "Shadow," and that's only one example). Sonic, in contrast, tends to introduce or refer to himself as "Sonic the Hedgehog" WAY more often (''Sonic '06'' and ''Sonic Adventure 2'' being notable examples). So I don't think we should bring Sonic into this, as he does things differently than Shadow does. If we rename this page to "Shadow," it would be in line with pretty much all of the other ''Sonic'' characters, including Sonic himself. It would also comply with how Shadow's name is used in the ''Super Mario'' series. We can just rename the current [[Shadow]] page to something like Shadow (enemy). I can rewrite this proposal accordingly, or make a completely new one. I screwed up in my thinking for this proposal, so I should fix my mistake. We have to rename this page one way or the other. does what I proposed sound good? Or does anyone have a better idea? Also, my thanks go out to everyone who has commented on this! You helped me realize a better way to do this, and I'm really grateful. Thank you. -- {{User:FanOfRosalina2007/sig}} 23:57, July 18, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::::Shadow is consistent with the other Sonic characters as long as we don't call him "Shadow the Hedgehog". Identifiers are a separate matter from the rest of the name - we include them purely for disambiguation. "Shadow (character)" is, as I explained in my vote, exactly as specific as it needs to be per the rules. Calling him "Shadow the Hedgehog" makes it totally and needlessly ''in''consistent with all the other Sonic characters. And again, what they do in the Sonic games does not matter, because we're only covering their Mario crossover appearances, in which the shorter names are consistently preferred for all of these characters. My actual suggestion for what to do is keep this page as "Shadow (character)", but make just "[[Shadow]]" the [[Shadow (disambiguation)|disambiguation]], like we do with [[Red]] and [[Ninja]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:09, July 19, 2024 (EDT) | ::::::::::::::Shadow is consistent with the other Sonic characters as long as we don't call him "Shadow the Hedgehog". Identifiers are a separate matter from the rest of the name - we include them purely for disambiguation. "Shadow (character)" is, as I explained in my vote, exactly as specific as it needs to be per the rules. Calling him "Shadow the Hedgehog" makes it totally and needlessly ''in''consistent with all the other Sonic characters. And again, what they do in the Sonic games does not matter, because we're only covering their Mario crossover appearances, in which the shorter names are consistently preferred for all of these characters. My actual suggestion for what to do is keep this page as "Shadow (character)", but make just "[[Shadow]]" the [[Shadow (disambiguation)|disambiguation]], like we do with [[Red]] and [[Ninja]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:09, July 19, 2024 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::::::Well, that's why I put a option to rename the page to just "Shadow," and that's my preferred name. I support moving Shadow to be the name of the disambiguation page like how we did it for Red and Ninja, but can we please wait until this proposal's over to think about that? I agree more with Arend's vote than anything else, to be honest. Shadow (character) is just a weird name considering how often Shadow has appeared in ''Super Mario'' media. Why should an enemy that has only appeared in ''one game'' and its remake get priority over a character that has appeared multiple times in both the ''Mario & Sonic'' series AND the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series? By keeping this page as Shadow (character), we would not be acknowledging the proposal that I mentioned. We can't just dig our heels in and ignore it. (Also, some of his ''Mario & Sonic'' bios call him Shadow the Hedgehog, and he is referred to as "Shadow the Hedgehog" very often in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. I think that renaming this page to "Shadow the Hedgehog" is acceptable as well, although I still think just plain Shadow is better.) -- {{User:FanOfRosalina2007/sig}} 13:55, July 19, 2024 (EDT) | :::::::::::::::Well, that's why I put a option to rename the page to just "Shadow," and that's my preferred name. I support moving Shadow to be the name of the disambiguation page like how we did it for Red and Ninja, but can we please wait until this proposal's over to think about that? I agree more with Arend's vote than anything else, to be honest. Shadow (character) is just a weird name considering how often Shadow has appeared in ''Super Mario'' media. Why should an enemy that has only appeared in ''one game'' and its remake get priority over a character that has appeared multiple times in both the ''Mario & Sonic'' series AND the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series? By keeping this page as Shadow (character), we would not be acknowledging the proposal that I mentioned. We can't just dig our heels in and ignore it. (Also, some of his ''Mario & Sonic'' bios call him Shadow the Hedgehog, and he is referred to as "Shadow the Hedgehog" very often in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. I think that renaming this page to "Shadow the Hedgehog" is acceptable as well, although I still think just plain Shadow is better.) -- {{User:FanOfRosalina2007/sig}} 13:55, July 19, 2024 (EDT) | ||
| Line 133: | Line 132: | ||
:::::::::::::::@SeanWheeler: I think it does distinguish the character enough from the enemy or similarly named characters. Shadow Queen and Shadow Mario are clearly different from the hedgehog, as "Shadow" isn't even their full name. The point on the dog character I'll say is more applicable, but still is distinguished by full name. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 12:44, July 27, 2024 (EDT) | :::::::::::::::@SeanWheeler: I think it does distinguish the character enough from the enemy or similarly named characters. Shadow Queen and Shadow Mario are clearly different from the hedgehog, as "Shadow" isn't even their full name. The point on the dog character I'll say is more applicable, but still is distinguished by full name. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 12:44, July 27, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::::::Yes, the dog is distinguished by his full name, but Shadow the Hedgehog '''used to''' be distinguished by his full name until that proposal that shortened crossover character names passed. I'm guessing Kat & Ana would just call their dog just "Shadow," right? What's to say with these constant proposals shortening page names that nobody would propose to cut "the Dog" part of his name? Then both of these pages would be competing for the Shadow name. And they are both characters, so "(character)" won't work as a distinguisher. And the full names help future-proof these crossover characters much better than their current names. We don't have a page on foxes as a species now, but we'd never know if someone would eventually create a Fox species page. Sure, we could propose it's deletion, but if it was ever decided on a proposal to create articles on real world animals that appeared in the Mario universe or if Nintendo makes an enemy species called "Fox," I would want the Starfox character to be called Fox McCloud. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:53, July 29, 2024 (EDT) | ::::::::::::::::Yes, the dog is distinguished by his full name, but Shadow the Hedgehog '''used to''' be distinguished by his full name until that proposal that shortened crossover character names passed. I'm guessing Kat & Ana would just call their dog just "Shadow," right? What's to say with these constant proposals shortening page names that nobody would propose to cut "the Dog" part of his name? Then both of these pages would be competing for the Shadow name. And they are both characters, so "(character)" won't work as a distinguisher. And the full names help future-proof these crossover characters much better than their current names. We don't have a page on foxes as a species now, but we'd never know if someone would eventually create a Fox species page. Sure, we could propose it's deletion, but if it was ever decided on a proposal to create articles on real world animals that appeared in the Mario universe or if Nintendo makes an enemy species called "Fox," I would want the Starfox character to be called Fox McCloud. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:53, July 29, 2024 (EDT) | ||
