Editing Talk:Rudy

== Concept Art of Rudy ==

On this page of the Japanese Nintendo site, small concept art of Rudy the Clown is available: [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/nom/0005/03/page2.html Click!] There his hands are connected with arms to his body, instead of floating around like in the final game. Just wanted to mention that, if somebody wants to work on this rather orphaned article and might find the concept art useful. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 14:03, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

== Name ==

He's not called "Rudy the Clown" in Dr. Mario 64. He's just "Rudy". Yet this page has been named "Rudy the Clown" since it was created back in 2005. This leads me to think whoever localized Fortune Street actually got the name off this wiki. [[User:Vent|Vent]] ([[User talk:Vent|talk]]) 13:42, 24 February 2016 (EST)
:Huh, interesting. It'd be fun if it's true: now we just gotta mistakenly rename "Junior (II)" to [[Pink Donkey Kong Jr.]] and hope that someone official copies that too so we can leave it there. Anyway, I updated the page to say that ''DM64'' only calls him Rudy, with refs. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 15:20, 24 February 2016 (EST)
Hello So just move it then?[[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 10:10, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

==Rename [[Rudy the Clown]] to [[Rudy]]==
{{TPP}}
As mentioned above on this talk page, the character is unnamed in his debut appearance, and was not named until ''[[Dr. Mario 64]]'' which called him "Rudy". A decade later, the character was mentioned in ''[[Fortune Street]]'' as "Rudy the Clown". (This wiki's use of "Rudy the Clown" predates the localization of ''Fortune Street'', so this is a possible case of citogenesis.) Because ''Fortune Street'' was localized by a party who may have been unaware that "the Clown" was not part of the character's name, I feel it reasonable to think we'd essentially be citing ourselves for it.

'''Proposer''': {{User|bwburke94}}<br />
'''Deadline''': <del>November 30, 2018, 23:59 GMT</del> Extended to December 7, 2018, 23:59 GMT

====Support (Rename)====
#{{User|bwburke94}} Per my own proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} It seems to be citogenesis through a fan nickname popular on various message boards, and wasn't even for an actual role, but an offhand mention.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} what they said
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per all.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Fortune Street and its English translation was released after "Rudy the Clown" was made popular online. Unless we can find an earlier official source, "Rudy" should be used here. Citogenesis is still citogenesis, no matter which form it takes. The message of the ''Super Mario Encyclopedia'' proposal shouldn't end at Dark Horse.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Changing my vote, as due to the ''The Clown'' name was often used as a fan term before ''Fortune Street'' was even released, so as per what LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick said, it probably is a case of citogenesis, even if it is a less extreme case that what happened with the ''Super Mario Encyclopedia''.
#{{User|GrainedCargo192}} Per all.

====Oppose (Do Not Rename)====
#{{User|Alex95}} - While it's possible the name came from us, the name is used in-game, so it's also perfectly valid (though perhaps the instance can be noted in trivia?).
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Alex95.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Tucayo}} - Per Alex.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per Alex95.
#{{User|WeirdDave13}} Per Alex95
#{{User|TheSuperZX}} Per all.

====Comments====
How are the fonts in ''Fortune Street''? They in ALLCAPS or regular? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:38, 16 November 2018 (EST)
:Regular text, called "Rudy the Clown" in game. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:43, 16 November 2018 (EST)
::At the same time, I'd like to note that [[Kamek]]'s full title has been said to be "Kamek the Evil Magikoopa" by an official source predating this wiki, but we don't have that as his article's title. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:44, 16 November 2018 (EST)

I don't consider this citogenesis. It's clearly a case where a popular fan name became part of a game, perhaps through the wiki's influence, but it's still in an official Mario game nonetheless. It's not like the Encyclopedia where tons of information was blatantly copied from the wiki with no regard for how much sense it actually made to use it. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:21, 17 November 2018 (EST)
:It should be noted that Square Enix appears to have outsourced the English translation to Keywords International Ltd. Rather than the localizer blessing the fanbase with a nod and a wink, it is much more likely that the translator just didn't have a Nintendo reference file at the moment and did a quick online search to get what seemed to be the official name for an obscure ''Wario'' villain that only gets a passing mention. The fact that it is in-game shouldn't matter (I'm fairly certain the same thing also happened to Cape''d'' Mario to a lesser extent). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:53, 17 November 2018 (EST)
@Alex95 - Since the proposal is about the title and not citations, Rudy the Clown should still be worthy of trivia within the article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:33, 17 November 2018 (EST)
:Yeah, regardless of how this turns out, the instance should be noted in trivia.
:Regarding your vote though, I don't see this as quite the same thing as the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' fiasco. The ''ESMB'' was essentially a large-scale lazy translation, by that I mean they hardly tried at all, and, while official, it's a book, not a game. In ''Fortune Street'', this appears to be the only usage of a fan-created name, the difference being the name was accepted by Nintendo and actually used in a video game.
:We also can't be certain if the name actually came from us. While there was overwhelming evidence for ''ESMB'', it's the one instance in ''Fortune Street''. They may not have used the wiki at all, there's not enough evidence that says they did. It's possible the Japanese script actually called Rudy a clown, or the English localizers tacked on "the Clown" to make it clear to players who and what Rudy is (the latter assuming they themselves knew who Rudy is). {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:43, 17 November 2018 (EST)
::I don't think the JP version mentioned him at all, and either way, he's just "a mysterious figure" over there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:14, 17 November 2018 (EST)
:::Well, RIP that idea, then. Still hold to my thoughts, though, I don't think this is the same situation as ''ESMB'', and I don't think there's enough evidence to support it. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:17, 17 November 2018 (EST)
::I agree with Alex95. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:48, 28 November 2018 (EST)
@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 ==Rename [[Rudy the Clown]] to [[Rudy]]==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|10-7|rename}}
 As mentioned above on this talk page, the character is unnamed in his debut appearance, and was not named until ''[[Dr. Mario 64]]'' which called him "Rudy". A decade later, the character was mentioned in ''[[Fortune Street]]'' as "Rudy the Clown". (This wiki's use of "Rudy the Clown" predates the localization of ''Fortune Street'', so this is a possible case of citogenesis.) Because ''Fortune Street'' was localized by a party who may have been unaware that "the Clown" was not part of the character's name, I feel it reasonable to think we'd essentially be citing ourselves for it.
@@ Line 26: / Line 25: @@
 #{{User|Doomhiker}} Changing my vote, as due to the ''The Clown'' name was often used as a fan term before ''Fortune Street'' was even released, so as per what LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick said, it probably is a case of citogenesis, even if it is a less extreme case that what happened with the ''Super Mario Encyclopedia''.
 #{{User|GrainedCargo192}} Per all.
-#{{User|Raymond1922A}} "Rudy the Clown" is just an offhand mention compared to his role in ''[[Dr. Mario 64]]'' as the main villain, and it's probably a case of citogenesis.
-#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I believe this is citogenesis and I don't want to make exceptions as it kind of runs against the point of us opposing Super Mario Encyclopieda, so just reiterating what LinktheLefty said.
 ====Oppose (Do Not Rename)====
@@ Line 52: / Line 49: @@
 :::Well, RIP that idea, then. Still hold to my thoughts, though, I don't think this is the same situation as ''ESMB'', and I don't think there's enough evidence to support it. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:17, 17 November 2018 (EST)
 ::I agree with Alex95. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:48, 28 November 2018 (EST)
-== Regarding the above ==
-So, given the Nipper Dandelion proposal, should we move this back to Rudy the Clown? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:26, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
-:This is a separate thing, as in this case Rudy had an older English name. I do think that it should be moved back due to similar reasons of why I want Watage Pakkun to be moved, however I feel that a counterproposal is required in this case. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 11:28, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
-::After all, it is in-game. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:32, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
-:::No. Firstly, the Nipper Dandelion proposal has not run its course. Secondly, this action requires another proposal to override it. Thirdly, as that proposal itself claims (unless it wasn't being entirely ingenuous), "'''''These situations are different and thus should not be compared.'''''" Note that Square Enix primarily outsourced the ''Fortune Street'' translation to Plus Alpha Translations, a third-party, and was not done in-house. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:36, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
-::::I still stand by what I said about that "'''''These situations are different and thus should not be compared.'''''" and that a counterproposal would be required. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 12:39, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
-:::::It's additionally worth noting that last I was told, the JP script of the game ''didn't mention him at all'', meaning this was some tongue-in-cheek wink by the translators, somewhat akin to the Shayde thing in SPM. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:53, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
-::::::What Shayde thing in SPM? [[User:Niiue|Who has lost his]] [[User talk:Niiue|tail?]] 04:08, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
-:::::::The mentions of Boss Bass and Micro Goomba; the former mentions a generic shark in the original JP. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:22, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
-:The use of the name "Rudy the Clown" has no connection to Nintendo, as ''Fortune Street'' was an outsourced Square Enix translation. That makes citogenesis far more likely than it is for "Nipper Dandelion". [[User:Bwburke94|Bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 00:59, April 3, 2019 (EDT)