Editing Talk:Rocky Wrench
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"A few Rocky Wrenches man a three barreled cannon in Super Mario Sunshine. Shooting Bullet Bills and Missile Bills." | "A few Rocky Wrenches man a three barreled cannon in Super Mario Sunshine. Shooting Bullet Bills and Missile Bills." | ||
Is this info correct? The species that control the cannons in Super Mario Sunshine don't have shells, yet the ones in SMB3 have Buzzy Beetle like shells. They may be Monty Moles or a new species. Can anyone confirm it, because there is no mention of Rocky Wrenches on any faq or guide.--[[User Talk: | Is this info correct? The species that control the cannons in Super Mario Sunshine don't have shells, yet the ones in SMB3 have Buzzy Beetle like shells. They may be Monty Moles or a new species. Can anyone confirm it, because there is no mention of Rocky Wrenches on any faq or guide.--[[User Talk:Spike|Spike]][[Image:Spike_sheild_badge.PNG]] | ||
:Monty Moles man the cannons, not Rocky Wrenches. The text will remain deleted. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]] | :Monty Moles man the cannons, not Rocky Wrenches. The text will remain deleted. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]] | ||
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::'''@DKPetey''': The only reason the Rocky Wrench page says they are Koopas is because some user equated being a mole-like turtle to being a Koopa. They are members of the Koopa Troop, but they're not [[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]s, especially not now, no more than Goombas are. Nintendo has never stated that they were; therefore, any claim that they are is nothing more than an assumption. '''@Goomba's Shoe15''': They're not turtles anymore. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 12:49, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ::'''@DKPetey''': The only reason the Rocky Wrench page says they are Koopas is because some user equated being a mole-like turtle to being a Koopa. They are members of the Koopa Troop, but they're not [[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]s, especially not now, no more than Goombas are. Nintendo has never stated that they were; therefore, any claim that they are is nothing more than an assumption. '''@Goomba's Shoe15''': They're not turtles anymore. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 12:49, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ||
:Do you have a guide that says there not not turtles cause unless you do they are turtles {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} | :Do you have a guide that says there not not turtles cause unless you do they are turtles {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} | ||
::[[File: | ::[[File:RockyWrenchNSMBW.png|150px]] Does this look like a turtle to you? I don't see a shell. Just because they were turtles in SMB3 doesn't mean they are now. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 12:54, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ||
They are both. Let's stop arguing! The page is already protected! {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 12:57, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | They are both. Let's stop arguing! The page is already protected! {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 12:57, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ||
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::::That source only describes Rocky Wrenches in SMB3. It does not describe those in SMG or NSMBWii because they no longer fit the definition of "turtles that look like moles." {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 13:01, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ::::That source only describes Rocky Wrenches in SMB3. It does not describe those in SMG or NSMBWii because they no longer fit the definition of "turtles that look like moles." {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 13:01, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ||
:::::If you can find a source that calls them monty moles than go ahead an change it but as of now no source has called them moles only that they look like moles {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} | :::::If you can find a source that calls them monty moles than go ahead an change it but as of now no source has called them moles only that they look like moles {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} | ||
As Mario4Ever said, this image speaks louder than words: [[File: | As Mario4Ever said, this image speaks louder than words: [[File:RockyWrenchNSMBW.png|150px]] they are no longer meant to be Koopas, they are Monty Moles now, and again that whole comment about them being turtles only exists in the american guide (which are not always perfect) translators aren't perfect you know... -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 13:09, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ||
:No true there japanses name is Tortopo which is a Portmanteau of "tortuga" (tortoise) and "topo" (mole). and no they don't not when i can cite my info and you can't until a source calls them moles they are turtles who look like moles {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} | :No true there japanses name is Tortopo which is a Portmanteau of "tortuga" (tortoise) and "topo" (mole). and no they don't not when i can cite my info and you can't until a source calls them moles they are turtles who look like moles {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} | ||
::I'm not saying they're now Monty Moles (at best, we could only call them mole-like). All I'm saying is that they're not turtles anymore. They don't have shells anymore. The almost 23 year-old definition doesn't stand when one looks at the Rocky Wrench as seen in the recent games. Unfortunately, Nintendo no longer lists its enemies in its instruction booklets, so there's no way to officially resolve the issue. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 13:15, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ::I'm not saying they're now Monty Moles (at best, we could only call them mole-like). All I'm saying is that they're not turtles anymore. They don't have shells anymore. The almost 23 year-old definition doesn't stand when one looks at the Rocky Wrench as seen in the recent games. Unfortunately, Nintendo no longer lists its enemies in its instruction booklets, so there's no way to officially resolve the issue. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 13:15, 13 July 2011 (EDT) | ||
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==Rocky Wrenches are Monty Moles== | ==Rocky Wrenches are Monty Moles== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|16-22|Rocky Wrenches are not Monty Moles.}} | ||
{{multiple image | {{multiple image | ||
|align=right | |align=right | ||
|direction=horizontal | |direction=horizontal | ||
|image1= | |image1=Montey.PNG | ||
|width1=110 | |width1=110 | ||
|caption1=A Monty Mole | |caption1=A Monty Mole | ||
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#{{User|RandomYoshi}} - Per B.wilson and Bop. If reliable information from Nintendo is not present on the subject, then why change it to a fanon interputation? | #{{User|RandomYoshi}} - Per B.wilson and Bop. If reliable information from Nintendo is not present on the subject, then why change it to a fanon interputation? | ||
#{{User|Commander Code-8}} Per all. | #{{User|Commander Code-8}} Per all. | ||
#{{User| | #{{User|Luigirules33}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Spidey665}} - '''Strong Oppose''': Rocky Wrenches are NOT Monty Moles. We work to be a ''good'' wiki, not a ''bad'' wiki with info without sources. Like Wikipedia, we also try to be a reliable source. | #{{User|Spidey665}} - '''Strong Oppose''': Rocky Wrenches are NOT Monty Moles. We work to be a ''good'' wiki, not a ''bad'' wiki with info without sources. Like Wikipedia, we also try to be a reliable source. | ||
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all above. If there's no source saying they are Monty Moles, it's speculation. | #{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all above. If there's no source saying they are Monty Moles, it's speculation. | ||
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It doesn't matter what they look like saying there a type of Monty Mole because they look like one is Speculation {{User|Raven Effect}} | It doesn't matter what they look like saying there a type of Monty Mole because they look like one is Speculation {{User|Raven Effect}} | ||
:Whatever the case may be it is clear that the present Rocky Wrenches are no longer "turtles" so we either reclassify them as Monty Moles or someone decides that Rocky Wrenches should be split into two articles, one for the ones that clearly look like Monty Moles and one for Raven Effect's "turtles". Although I'm still in favor of the reclassification. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 19:46, 19 December 2011 (EST) | :Whatever the case may be it is clear that the present Rocky Wrenches are no longer "turtles" so we either reclassify them as Monty Moles or someone decides that Rocky Wrenches should be split into two articles, one for the ones that clearly look like Monty Moles and one for Raven Effect's "turtles". Although I'm still in favor of the reclassification. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 19:46, 19 December 2011 (EST) | ||
::Per the comparisons of the Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench, it is obviously a goggle-wearing, wrench-wielding Monty Mole with a manhole on his head. --[[File: | ::Per the comparisons of the Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench, it is obviously a goggle-wearing, wrench-wielding Monty Mole with a manhole on his head. --[[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] [[User:SuperYoshiBros|<span style=color:blue>Super</span>]][[User talk:SuperYoshiBros|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/SuperYoshiBros|Bros]] [[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] 19:47, 19 December 2011 (EST) | ||
While Rocky Wrenches now greatly resemble Monty Moles, saying that they're one in the same is pretty much speculation at the moment. {{User:M&SG/sig}} 08:16, 20 December 2011 (EST) | While Rocky Wrenches now greatly resemble Monty Moles, saying that they're one in the same is pretty much speculation at the moment. {{User:M&SG/sig}} 08:16, 20 December 2011 (EST) | ||
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The Super Mario 3D Land strategy guild says they are moles, not turtles. Now I'm not saying they are Monty Moles, but we can now say they are not turtles. {{User|Tails777}} | The Super Mario 3D Land strategy guild says they are moles, not turtles. Now I'm not saying they are Monty Moles, but we can now say they are not turtles. {{User|Tails777}} | ||
They also never looked like turtles anyway. The shell in SMB3 looks more like clothing then anything else. --[[File: | They also never looked like turtles anyway. The shell in SMB3 looks more like clothing then anything else. --[[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] [[User:SuperYoshiBros|<span style=color:blue>Super</span>]][[User talk:SuperYoshiBros|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/SuperYoshiBros|Bros]] [[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] 16:50, 20 December 2011 (EST) | ||
:I suspect the same but the english translations of SMB3's manual say otherwise, but that's only in the english version, if we had the japanese manual we might not even need this poll. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 17:08, 20 December 2011 (EST) | :I suspect the same but the english translations of SMB3's manual say otherwise, but that's only in the english version, if we had the japanese manual we might not even need this poll. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 17:08, 20 December 2011 (EST) | ||
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:Appears in a level with Monty Mole species=/=is a member of the Monty mole species {{User|Raven Effect}} | :Appears in a level with Monty Mole species=/=is a member of the Monty mole species {{User|Raven Effect}} | ||
Guys, isn't it obvious that Rocky Wrenches are in fact MOLES?!? Buzzy Beetles aren't Koopas, yet they have shells. It would be silly to classify them as turtles. We're talking just plain ol' moles here, not Monty Moles. --[[File: | Guys, isn't it obvious that Rocky Wrenches are in fact MOLES?!? Buzzy Beetles aren't Koopas, yet they have shells. It would be silly to classify them as turtles. We're talking just plain ol' moles here, not Monty Moles. --[[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] [[User:SuperYoshiBros|<span style=color:blue>Super</span>]][[User talk:SuperYoshiBros|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/SuperYoshiBros|Bros]] [[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] 16:52, 24 December 2011 (EST) | ||
:Um this proposal is about whether or not Rocky Wrenches are Monty Moles {{User|Raven Effect}} | :Um this proposal is about whether or not Rocky Wrenches are Monty Moles {{User|Raven Effect}} | ||
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:::::'''@Byllant''': Yes, they pair them together. However, where does it say that they are both monty moles? I notice that they don't say Koopa, but we aren't going to go by opinion. Whether they are implying it or whether they are just pairing them together because of say stregeties, I don't know. All I know is that there is nowhere in there that proves/deny anything with the matter we are on. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} | :::::'''@Byllant''': Yes, they pair them together. However, where does it say that they are both monty moles? I notice that they don't say Koopa, but we aren't going to go by opinion. Whether they are implying it or whether they are just pairing them together because of say stregeties, I don't know. All I know is that there is nowhere in there that proves/deny anything with the matter we are on. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} | ||
I propose we say that Rocky Wrenches are just moles, not Monty Moles. Does anybody agree with me? --[[File: | I propose we say that Rocky Wrenches are just moles, not Monty Moles. Does anybody agree with me? --[[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] [[User:SuperYoshiBros|<span style=color:blue>Super</span>]][[User talk:SuperYoshiBros|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/SuperYoshiBros|Bros]] [[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] 18:08, 9 January 2012 (EST) | ||
:Yes.{{User|Magikrazy51}} | :Yes.{{User|Magikrazy51}} | ||
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==Make {{fake link|Rocky Wrench (Super Mario Galaxy)}} its own page== | ==Make {{fake link|Rocky Wrench (Super Mario Galaxy)}} its own page== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|8-0|split}} | ||
These guys are obviously intended to be different enemies, resembling [[Undergrunt]]s more than the usual Rocky Wrench depiction. However, my strongest opinion here is that they have a different Japanese name, where they're obviously supposed to be derived from those species. Just as we split [[King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine)]] because of the widely different looks and Japanese name, I suggest we split off this. | These guys are obviously intended to be different enemies, resembling [[Undergrunt]]s more than the usual Rocky Wrench depiction. However, my strongest opinion here is that they have a different Japanese name, where they're obviously supposed to be derived from those species. Just as we split [[King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine)]] because of the widely different looks and Japanese name, I suggest we split off this. | ||
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== Rocky Wrenches are a type of Monty Mole == | == Rocky Wrenches are a type of Monty Mole == | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-4-10|Rocky Wrenches are both Koopas and Monty Moles}} | ||
So, ''this'' again. Thanks to the Super Mario Bros. 3 manual calling Rocky Wrenches a type of Koopa, the wiki's stance is that Rocky Wrenches are completely unrelated to Monty Moles, and are somehow a type of Koopa with only one turtle-like trait. This despite the fact that every post-SMB3 game redesigned Rocky Wrenches to look ''exactly the same'' as Monty Moles (albeit with shells and goggles). Additionally, the Japanese names are near-identical (Pū vs Choropū), and most regions give Monty Moles and Rocky Wrenches extremely similar names. Furthermore, the Prima guide for New Super Mario Bros. Wii grouped Rocky Wrenches and Monty Moles together, and Super Mario Maker lets you shake Monty Moles to turn them into Rocky Wrenches, and vice versa. | So, ''this'' again. Thanks to the Super Mario Bros. 3 manual calling Rocky Wrenches a type of Koopa, the wiki's stance is that Rocky Wrenches are completely unrelated to Monty Moles, and are somehow a type of Koopa with only one turtle-like trait. This despite the fact that every post-SMB3 game redesigned Rocky Wrenches to look ''exactly the same'' as Monty Moles (albeit with shells and goggles). Additionally, the Japanese names are near-identical (Pū vs Choropū), and most regions give Monty Moles and Rocky Wrenches extremely similar names. Furthermore, the Prima guide for New Super Mario Bros. Wii grouped Rocky Wrenches and Monty Moles together, and Super Mario Maker lets you shake Monty Moles to turn them into Rocky Wrenches, and vice versa. | ||
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Is there a neat, simple, and tidy summary of all of this? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 10:52, 8 August 2017 (EDT) | Is there a neat, simple, and tidy summary of all of this? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 10:52, 8 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
:I'd say that this is going beyond hopeless levels. In my opinion, it's not our duty to determine whether the "new" Rocky Wrenches are Monty Moles. Nintendo should state that, and we should just report what Nintendo states. If Nintendo doesn't state anything, like they are seemingly doing, we should just note the similar appearance - it's undeniable that now Rocky Wrenches look like Monty Moles. Since we already do that, I'm having troubles understanding this proposal.<br /> | :I'd say that this is going beyond hopeless levels. In my opinion, it's not our duty to determine whether the "new" Rocky Wrenches are Monty Moles. Nintendo should state that, and we should just report what Nintendo states. If Nintendo doesn't state anything, like they are seemingly doing, we should just note the similar appearance - it's undeniable that now Rocky Wrenches look like Monty Moles. Since we already do that, I'm having troubles understanding this proposal.<br /> | ||
:Regarding the discussion, beside your discovery that the translation of the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' manual was correct, one thing we can say is that we found unambiguous evidence that Monty Moles and Rocky Wrenches were distinguished ones from the others in official material released after ''Super Mario World'' (namely the ''Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia'', although I now also found the same evidence in the ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'', {{ | :Regarding the discussion, beside your discovery that the translation of the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' manual was correct, one thing we can say is that we found unambiguous evidence that Monty Moles and Rocky Wrenches were distinguished ones from the others in official material released after ''Super Mario World'' (namely the ''Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia'', although I now also found the same evidence in the ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'', {{media link|SMCE page 256.png|a 1991 book written in collaboration with Nintendo}}, as you can see {{media link|SMCE pages 168 169.png|here}} and {{media link|SMCE page 44.png|here}}), if you want to go deeper into the discussion and also include the other parts, good luck, as two hot topics are touched: the Koopa Troop and what is the equivalent of the ''Koopas'' term in Japan. I might try to gather material that helps clarify these two hot topics, but several walls of text (and probably days of work) would be needed, and something tells me this is probably not the right place for that...--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:48, 8 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
== Reworking Relations == | == Reworking Relations == | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|7-8}} | ||
I, the self-proclaimed Queen of the Moles, have come to a conclusion, after my studies on the history of Monty Mole's design. Rocky Wrenches are not derivatives of Monty Mole. ''However'', Monty Moles are derivatives of Rocky Wrench. Even in the biological aspect is debatable, part of the reason the "subspecies" parameter was changed to "derived species" was to make the biological aspect of that parameter not be the single deciding factor, and to include things that are directly inspired by the design and behavior. Anyways, here are some key points: | I, the self-proclaimed Queen of the Moles, have come to a conclusion, after my studies on the history of Monty Mole's design. Rocky Wrenches are not derivatives of Monty Mole. ''However'', Monty Moles are derivatives of Rocky Wrench. Even in the biological aspect is debatable, part of the reason the "subspecies" parameter was changed to "derived species" was to make the biological aspect of that parameter not be the single deciding factor, and to include things that are directly inspired by the design and behavior. Anyways, here are some key points: | ||
*Rocky Wrench was considered a turtle/Koopa that looks like a mole at its inception, while the turtlish aspects are not present in most games starting from NSMBW, where it looked like a post-SM64DS Monty Mole. | *Rocky Wrench was considered a turtle/Koopa that looks like a mole at its inception, while the turtlish aspects are not present in most games starting from NSMBW, where it looked like a post-SM64DS Monty Mole. | ||
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*Monty Mole seems to have a more generic name than Rocky Wrench. HOWEVER, this is due to the English localization. In Japanese, Rocky is "Poo" and Monty is "Choropoo," ie a variation on "Poo." | *Monty Mole seems to have a more generic name than Rocky Wrench. HOWEVER, this is due to the English localization. In Japanese, Rocky is "Poo" and Monty is "Choropoo," ie a variation on "Poo." | ||
*At the time of Monty Mole's creation, Rocky was still considered part of the Turtle Tribe, according to various Japanese character encyclopedias. This would be continued in other pre-Yoshi's Island guides, at which point "general" guides would stop being so specific and more, well, general. In guides for later appearances, no relation to either Turtle Tribe nor Choropoo would be directly stated. | *At the time of Monty Mole's creation, Rocky was still considered part of the Turtle Tribe, according to various Japanese character encyclopedias. This would be continued in other pre-Yoshi's Island guides, at which point "general" guides would stop being so specific and more, well, general. In guides for later appearances, no relation to either Turtle Tribe nor Choropoo would be directly stated. | ||
*In ''Mario Kart DS'', {{ | *In ''Mario Kart DS'', {{media link|RockyWrenchDS.png|Rocky Wrench's design}} was tweaked to vaguely follow the SM64DS Monty design, but there were still many differences, such as the upper lip color and large fangs. Due to being a flat texture always facing the camera, presence of a shell can be neither confirmed nor denied. | ||
*In NSMBW, Rocky Wrench looks like an aviator Monty Mole. MK7 changed the Rocky Wrenches in Airship Fortress to follow this, and even gave them that "Dee!" noise Monty Moles make in some ''Mario Kart'' games. | *In NSMBW, Rocky Wrench looks like an aviator Monty Mole. MK7 changed the Rocky Wrenches in Airship Fortress to follow this, and even gave them that "Dee!" noise Monty Moles make in some ''Mario Kart'' games. | ||
*Due to Monty Mole's redesign coming first, plus Rocky's more specialized behavior, one might think it logical to put Rocky Wrench as derivative of Monty Mole nowadays. However, this does not change the fact that Rocky in general came first, and has a less-specific Japanese name. | *Due to Monty Mole's redesign coming first, plus Rocky's more specialized behavior, one might think it logical to put Rocky Wrench as derivative of Monty Mole nowadays. However, this does not change the fact that Rocky in general came first, and has a less-specific Japanese name. | ||
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:::::::''Choropoo'' is a derivative of ''Poo''. And no, "subspecies" ''is'' inappropriate, hence why it was banished to the "frequently misused terminology" list. "Derived" here means "the design was directly inspired by," because ''Choropoo'' was physically based upon and named after ''Poo''. Claiming that it "became" a derivative of the other, which came later, is obfuscative and nonsensical. The original Monty Mole design in ''Super Mario World'' is a less-reptilian less-mechanic looking version of Rocky Wrench's design in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', really. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:14, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | :::::::''Choropoo'' is a derivative of ''Poo''. And no, "subspecies" ''is'' inappropriate, hence why it was banished to the "frequently misused terminology" list. "Derived" here means "the design was directly inspired by," because ''Choropoo'' was physically based upon and named after ''Poo''. Claiming that it "became" a derivative of the other, which came later, is obfuscative and nonsensical. The original Monty Mole design in ''Super Mario World'' is a less-reptilian less-mechanic looking version of Rocky Wrench's design in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', really. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:14, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
::::::::Chronology alone is a flawed argument. Any comments on the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' redesign? Furthermore, the Japanese names don't seem to mean anything significant, and a bunch of the other interlanguage names clearly denote it as a Monty Mole derivative. Not to mention that only one instance of Rocky Wrench's Japanese name was found, so if you can find, say, an official Japanese guide related to ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' that contains its name, I'd be more than happy to clarify my vote. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 16:51, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ::::::::Chronology alone is a flawed argument. Any comments on the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' redesign? Furthermore, the Japanese names don't seem to mean anything significant, and a bunch of the other interlanguage names clearly denote it as a Monty Mole derivative. Not to mention that only one instance of Rocky Wrench's Japanese name was found, so if you can find, say, an official Japanese guide related to ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' that contains its name, I'd be more than happy to clarify my vote. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 16:51, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::The names don't mean anything individually, yet interlock into each other. As for another example of "''Poo''?" [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf ''3D Land'' shogakukan]. Note how "''Choropoo''" is never mentioned in ''Poo''{{'}}s description. As for the NSMBW redesign, they had already been made to look similar to the SM64DS Monty design in ''[[ | :::::::::The names don't mean anything individually, yet interlock into each other. As for another example of "''Poo''?" [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf ''3D Land'' shogakukan]. Note how "''Choropoo''" is never mentioned in ''Poo''{{'}}s description. As for the NSMBW redesign, they had already been made to look similar to the SM64DS Monty design in ''[[media:RockyWrenchDS.png|Mario Ka]][[media:MontyMoleMKDS.png|rt DS]]'', which in turn seems to derive from [[media:Rocky Wrench - Super Mario Bros. Print World.png|various]] [[media:RaceCarDriverMechanic.png|stock]] [[media:Rocky wrench.jpg|artwork]], with the NSMBW appearance changing the lip color and teeth. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::Choropoo is likely derived from 「チョロチョロ」 or 「ちょろちょろ」 (''chorochoro''), an onomatopoeia for a small animal darting about rapidly, which adequately describes Monty Mole's behavior in the 2D platformers where it "darts" after the player. Choropoo / Monty Mole being a derivative of Poo / Rocky Wrench also seems to be apparent in the Korean name; all other language localizations appear to be inconclusive on the derivative, not vice versa. Finally, Rocky Wrenches retain their Japanese name in various ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' sections. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:25, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | :::::::::Choropoo is likely derived from 「チョロチョロ」 or 「ちょろちょろ」 (''chorochoro''), an onomatopoeia for a small animal darting about rapidly, which adequately describes Monty Mole's behavior in the 2D platformers where it "darts" after the player. Choropoo / Monty Mole being a derivative of Poo / Rocky Wrench also seems to be apparent in the Korean name; all other language localizations appear to be inconclusive on the derivative, not vice versa. Finally, Rocky Wrenches retain their Japanese name in various ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' sections. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:25, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::Hmm... I can't read Japanese, but I don't see the opposite is true either. If fact, I see the letters for "Pu" for Morty Mole. If only I can read Japanesse... {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:15, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ::::::::::Hmm... I can't read Japanese, but I don't see the opposite is true either. If fact, I see the letters for "Pu" for Morty Mole. If only I can read Japanesse... {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:15, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
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:::::::::::::This still happens on occasion, considering ''[[:File:YWW Bullet Bill.jpg|Yoshi's Woolly World]]'' came out more recently after ''[[:File:YNI_Bullet_Bill.png|Yoshi's New Island]]''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:45, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | :::::::::::::This still happens on occasion, considering ''[[:File:YWW Bullet Bill.jpg|Yoshi's Woolly World]]'' came out more recently after ''[[:File:YNI_Bullet_Bill.png|Yoshi's New Island]]''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:45, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::::[https://youtu.be/BXBdNLKi5Gs?t=14 Umm, no?] Anyways, anyone have a link to the full ''Sunshine'' guide on Imgur? I had access to it a while back, but can now only find pages 18-19... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:01, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ::::::::::::::[https://youtu.be/BXBdNLKi5Gs?t=14 Umm, no?] Anyways, anyone have a link to the full ''Sunshine'' guide on Imgur? I had access to it a while back, but can now only find pages 18-19... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:01, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::Then it's a difference between artwork and in-game, which is where the arm/mouth discrepancy [[:File:Bullet_Bill_-_Super_Mario_Bros._Print_World.png|came]] [[:File:Bullet_Bill_scan_from_Mario_Mania.png|from]] [[:File:SMRPG_BulletBill.jpg|to]] [[:File:SMBDX_Bill_Pic.PNG|begin]] [[:File:Bill_Blaster_With_Bullet_Bill.png|with]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:21, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | :::::::::::::::Then it's a difference between artwork and in-game, which is where the arm/mouth discrepancy [[:File:Bullet_Bill_-_Super_Mario_Bros._Print_World.png|came]] [[:File:Bullet_Bill_scan_from_Mario_Mania.png|from]] [[:File:SMRPG_BulletBill.jpg|to]] [[:File:SMBDX_Bill_Pic.PNG|begin]] [[:File:Bill_Blaster_With_Bullet_Bill.png|with]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:21, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::Still, no reason to do it now, since the graphics are no longer 16x16 tricolor sprites that are hard to discern details from. Anyways, that derails from the initial point, in that the design for Banzai Bill affected the design for Bullet Bill, since they decided it was their "high definition" Bullet Bill at the time (which is also why it was immediately rejected from ''Mario Tennis'' 64.) Anyways, my original point was that a derivative can affect the parent species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:28, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ::::::::::::::::Still, no reason to do it now, since the graphics are no longer 16x16 tricolor sprites that are hard to discern details from. Anyways, that derails from the initial point, in that the design for Banzai Bill affected the design for Bullet Bill, since they decided it was their "high definition" Bullet Bill at the time (which is also why it was immediately rejected from ''Mario Tennis'' 64.) Anyways, my original point was that a derivative can affect the parent species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:28, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::Another example would be the Buzzy Beetle in [[:File:BuzzyBeetlePM.png|the]] [[:File:Buzzy_Beetle2.PNG|first]] [[:File: | :::::::::::::::::Another example would be the Buzzy Beetle in [[:File:BuzzyBeetlePM.png|the]] [[:File:Buzzy_Beetle2.PNG|first]] [[:File:17._Buzzy_Beetle_Card.PNG|three]] ''Paper Mario'' games is based more on [[:File:SMB3_BusterBeetle.jpg|its]] [[:File:SMB3_Parabeetle.jpg|derived]] [[:File:Spike_Artwork_-_Mario_Clash.png|species]] rather than its [[:File:320079-hardshell.jpg|original]] or [[:File:Buzzy_Beetle.png|modern]] designs. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:00, 16 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
Seeing how in the official Japanese character books of the '90s we have found Rocky Wrenches were {{ | Seeing how in the official Japanese character books of the '90s we have found Rocky Wrenches were {{media link|SMCE pages 168 169.png|consistently}} {{media link|SMBD page 40.png|stated}} {{media link|PEGMCE page 183.png|to be members of the Turtle Tribe}} and turtles who look like moles, while Monty Moles {{media link|SMCE page 44.png|definitely}} {{media link|SMBD page 60.png|were}} {{media link|PEGMCE page 112.png|not}} and seeing how Rocky Wrenches started looking like Monty Moles since ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', have you considered the hypothesis that Rocky Wrenches were intended to be moles from the start but were then designed as turtles that look like moles, possibly because turtles seemed more fitting for Bowser's military vehicles? I think that we are very well into the speculation territory, so other hypotheses could be as likely. Anyway, regardless of the relationships in terms of design that might very well be there, putting Monty Moles as members of the Turtle Tribe simply doesn't fit what the official material has been saying since the very beginning and I would rather avoid forcing this - I don't think the designers were really thinking at Monty Moles being turtles even if they indeed based Monty Moles on Rocky Wrenches.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:37, 17 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
:I'm saying if a sea slug can be derivative of a bat, a mole can be derivative of a mole-turtle, even if that later (possibly) becomes a mole deriving from a mole. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:37, 17 April 2018 (EDT) | :I'm saying if a sea slug can be derivative of a bat, a mole can be derivative of a mole-turtle, even if that later (possibly) becomes a mole deriving from a mole. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:37, 17 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
::I'm not ruling out the possibility that Monty Moles were derived from Rocky Wrenches, it's a concrete possibility due to their name and the mole-like appearance of Rocky Wrenches, I just think that indirectly considering Monty Moles turtles might be a bit excessive - they were always stated to be moles not pertaining to the Turtle Tribe, so we should stress that if we make this change.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:43, 17 April 2018 (EDT) | ::I'm not ruling out the possibility that Monty Moles were derived from Rocky Wrenches, it's a concrete possibility due to their name and the mole-like appearance of Rocky Wrenches, I just think that indirectly considering Monty Moles turtles might be a bit excessive - they were always stated to be moles not pertaining to the Turtle Tribe, so we should stress that if we make this change.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:43, 17 April 2018 (EDT) | ||
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== Reworking Relations Returns! == | == Reworking Relations Returns! == | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|4-9-7|Rocky Wrenches and Monty Moles are related to each other}} | ||
OK.<br>Time to end this.<br>Currently, our little friend Rocky here is listed as a derivative of Monty Mole, despite predating them. The rationale behind this seems to be the NSMBW redesign, but it's worth noting that {{ | OK.<br>Time to end this.<br>Currently, our little friend Rocky here is listed as a derivative of Monty Mole, despite predating them. The rationale behind this seems to be the NSMBW redesign, but it's worth noting that {{media link|SM64DS Monty Mole.png|the redesign of Monty from SM64DS}} seems to take more influence from {{media link|Rocky Wrench - Super Mario Bros. Print World.png|the original Rocky Wrench}} than {{media link|SMBD page 60.png|the previous inconsistent}} {{media link|MontySM64.png|inconsistent depictions}} of Monty Mole, made very apparent in ''[[Mario Kart DS]]'', where {{media link|MontyMoleMKDS.png|Monty Mole}} looks morphologically more like the classic {{Media link|RockyWrenchDS.png|Rocky Wrench}} than the {{media link|MontyMole MK64.png|"Chubby"}} moles from the previous iteration of Moo Moo Farm. | ||
Speaking of "Chubby," from what I can tell from screwing around with Google translate, this is a spectacularly-mangled form of ''Choropoo'' (Monty's Japanese name), as GT itself mangles that into "Chubby Pooh." Now ''Poo'' is Rocky's JP name, with ''Choropoo'' being a variant thereof, with the first part coming from ''Chorochoro'', meaning to dart around quickly, as it does in its debut appearance. This means that Montys were deliberately designed with Rocky in mind, and as such, are conceptually derived from them. A similar case exists with [[Galoomba]]: it's specifically stated in games to ''not'' be a type of Goomba, but we list it as a derived species due to being designed after them. This exists with many other cases: | Speaking of "Chubby," from what I can tell from screwing around with Google translate, this is a spectacularly-mangled form of ''Choropoo'' (Monty's Japanese name), as GT itself mangles that into "Chubby Pooh." Now ''Poo'' is Rocky's JP name, with ''Choropoo'' being a variant thereof, with the first part coming from ''Chorochoro'', meaning to dart around quickly, as it does in its debut appearance. This means that Montys were deliberately designed with Rocky in mind, and as such, are conceptually derived from them. A similar case exists with [[Galoomba]]: it's specifically stated in games to ''not'' be a type of Goomba, but we list it as a derived species due to being designed after them. This exists with many other cases: | ||
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::::Well, [[Boss Bass]] and [[Cheep Chomp]] are seperated. {{User:VOIDTHIS/sig}} 00:22, 9 September 2018 (CEST) | ::::Well, [[Boss Bass]] and [[Cheep Chomp]] are seperated. {{User:VOIDTHIS/sig}} 00:22, 9 September 2018 (CEST) | ||
:::::That one is a very delicate situation, possibly moreso than this one. Given that ''Kyodai Pukupuku'' was used in SMB3 while later games used ''Bakubaku'', there's some notable variation there as well, as well as the whole [[Big Bertha]] thing, and how [[Red Blurp]] and [[Blue Blurp]] seem to be separate variations ''of'' Boss Bass, and how Boss Bass's former role of "the giant version of Cheep Cheep" was taken by [[Big Cheep Cheep]], with the new purple coloration seemingly being to be able to tell them apart easier on the small DS screen....very difficult situation. Granted, there's the way we have Short Fuse and Seedy Sally merged to Ukiki, but really, the situation with the eaty Cheeps is kinda a big cluster. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:27, 8 September 2018 (EDT) | :::::That one is a very delicate situation, possibly moreso than this one. Given that ''Kyodai Pukupuku'' was used in SMB3 while later games used ''Bakubaku'', there's some notable variation there as well, as well as the whole [[Big Bertha]] thing, and how [[Red Blurp]] and [[Blue Blurp]] seem to be separate variations ''of'' Boss Bass, and how Boss Bass's former role of "the giant version of Cheep Cheep" was taken by [[Big Cheep Cheep]], with the new purple coloration seemingly being to be able to tell them apart easier on the small DS screen....very difficult situation. Granted, there's the way we have Short Fuse and Seedy Sally merged to Ukiki, but really, the situation with the eaty Cheeps is kinda a big cluster. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:27, 8 September 2018 (EDT) | ||
::::::On that note, though, I do think we should consider moving "Bubba" from the Boss Bass to the Cheep Chomp article, considering that is how at least {{ | ::::::On that note, though, I do think we should consider moving "Bubba" from the Boss Bass to the Cheep Chomp article, considering that is how at least {{media link|SMP page 62 excerpt.png|one source}} categorizes them. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:00, 8 September 2018 (EDT) | ||
:::::::S'why I mentioned the name change being then. I recall another that had a screenshot labelled as "Bakubaku," but can't remember the exact conversation. EDIT: Link's been changed, now the one in question is the above one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:04, 8 September 2018 (EDT) | :::::::S'why I mentioned the name change being then. I recall another that had a screenshot labelled as "Bakubaku," but can't remember the exact conversation. EDIT: Link's been changed, now the one in question is the above one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:04, 8 September 2018 (EDT) | ||
:::::::: I'd say that we should list Monties as species of Rocky Wrenches. You can call me Yoshi2 to reply me. I call Alex95, simply Alex. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:29, 10 September 2018 (EDT) | :::::::: I'd say that we should list Monties as species of Rocky Wrenches. You can call me Yoshi2 to reply me. I call Alex95, simply Alex. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:29, 10 September 2018 (EDT) | ||
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== Comments on the Great Debate == | == Comments on the Great Debate == | ||
The amount of difficulty this wiki has had with simply noting the observations of their friggin eyeballs is really not a good showing. Requiring citations is important, yes, but when you can literally look at the creature and see that it's a mole, and still insist that it's a turtle because some old source said so, that does tend to hurt your credibility as an encyclopedia and as a person. And, for clarification because this was a strawman that people jumped to (and still were as of autumn 2018, apparently), 'mole' =/= Monty Mole. Rocky Wrench can be a mole without being a derivative of Monty Mole. Just as being human doesn't make the NPCs in New Donk City Mario Bros. Today, Rocky Wrenches are moles (which this wiki at least seems to have settled on). Do with that what you will | The amount of difficulty this wiki has had with simply noting the observations of their friggin eyeballs is really not a good showing. Requiring citations is important, yes, but when you can literally look at the creature and see that it's a mole, and still insist that it's a turtle because some old source said so, that does tend to hurt your credibility as an encyclopedia and as a person. And, for clarification because this was a strawman that people jumped to (and still were as of autumn 2018, apparently), 'mole' =/= Monty Mole. Rocky Wrench can be a mole without being a derivative of Monty Mole. Just as being human doesn't make the NPCs in New Donk City Mario Bros. Today, Rocky Wrenches are moles (which this wiki at least seems to have settled on). Do with that what you will. [[User:Meganerd18|Meganerd18]] ([[User talk:Meganerd18|talk]]) 04:43, July 5, 2019 (EDT) | ||