Editing Talk:Purple Switch

==Merge to [[! Switch]]==
For some reason, between this and Cap Switch (both of which are simply "switch" in JP), Cap Switch gets to be considered the "main" ! Switch while this is split off. This doesn't make much sense to me; while the Cap Switches are clearly based off the SMW object, these seem to be based off the SMW2 version, but slightly tweaked. The square design is also no issue, as shown by P Switch in ''Odyssey''. Also, it's straight-up red in DS, so the name's not so accurate. Anyways, I think both this and the Cap Switch can share a place on the article, as they are both ! Switches at the core, with different specifics about them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:00, April 11, 2020 (EDT)
:I'm not opposed to that at all. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 00:10, April 12, 2020 (EDT)
::Also of note is that, in ''Super Mario 64 DS'', <tt>HATENA_SWITCH</tt> is the internal object name for ? Switch (formerly "Cap" Switch), while <tt>HANSWITCH</tt> is the internal object name for "Purple" Switch, which seems clearly diminutive of it (possibly a remnant of how they were paired in ''Super Mario 64'' source since the latter didn't have its "!" symbol changed to a "?" symbol). However, other things worth mentioning: in ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', the ''Super Mario 64'' switches are listed separately (Cap Switch has the same name given to ! Switch in other sections, and Purple Switch is a generic "switch"), and in in-game ''Super Mario 64'' text, the term 「アイテムスイッチ」 (''Aitemu Suicchi'', Item Switch) is used in place of "Cap Switches" in Japanese (and the corresponding block is called 「アイテムブロック」 in place of "colored blocks" and one instance of "Cap Blocks"). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:48, April 12, 2020 (EDT)

== Merge to ! Switch (proposal edition) ==
{{TPP}}
See above. This is just SM64's take on the SMW2 ! Switch. Also, while its color is debatable in the original, it's not even purple in the remake.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>September 20, 2021, 23:59 GMT</s> September 27, 2021, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{user|7feetunder}} ''Paper Mario'' and ''Super Paper Mario'' have non-standard ! Switches in [[:File:PM Dry Dry Ruins Draining Sand.png|Dry Dry Ruins]] and [[:File:SPM Yold Ruins Big Red Switch.png|Yold Ruins]] respectively, in the same games as traditionally designed ! Switches, and those aren't split. The effects of those traditionally designed ! Switches also vary dramatically from switch to switch, so the "different effects" argument doesn't convince me either. As for them having a unique English name... well, so do the Cap Switches, and those aren't split. What makes the Purple Switches so special, especially when their name (which, as already pointed out, is misleading) comes from a lower-tier source than Cap Switch?
#{{user|Results May Vary}} The base concept is the exact same as the [[! Switch]], and the Japanese name further suggests this. Per all.
#{{user|Blinker}} What they said. I'd like to add that the unusual square shape might be an attempt to have it use less polygons.
#{{User|TheDarkStar}} - Per all

===Oppose===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I'm skeptical of this one since Super Mario 64 already has switches with the traditional design. It seems more logical to assume that 64 just has two different types of switches.
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} It has both a unique name and operates on a different function then the other ! Switch in Super Mario 64.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per all.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all
#{{User|Hewer}} I'm not quite sure I understand the logic here, it seems pretty obvious to me that this a variation of the regular switch and it being the only one to return in SM64DS doesn't really amount to anything. Per all.
#{{User|Lastro}} Per all. They are different. It's like the [[P-Switch]] and [[! Switch]], except here they have both an "!" on them: they're different in purpose and in their way of functioning, so they shouldn't be merged.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.

===Comments===
@Waluigi Time Same deal as the [[P-Switch]] in Odyssey. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:30, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
:I see this more as a [[P-Switch]] [[Gray P-Switch]] situation similar things but with different functions. {{User|Chester Alan Arthur}}
::Its language-of-origin name is just "switch," though. Which is shared with most iterations of ! Switch...with the cap ones sometimes being given the more specific name of "Item Switch." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:35, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
:::Sorry but like you want to merge two different things with two different designs that have separate functions that exist in the same game. Like sorry I don't care that it has the generic name switch. Not only that but according to this very wiki the traditional Item switches in Super Mario 64's Japanese name means Item Switch so even there in Japanese and English it has separate names. {{User|Chester Alan Arthur}}
::::It's the only one in DS, actually. And what I said before is "Switch" is ! Switch's usual Japanese name, with Item Switch solely referring to the cap one. Also, objects can have multiple functions and slight design differences while still being the same type of object, ie [[cannon]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:58, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
:The P-Switch in Odyssey has a different design than normal but it's also the only P-Switch in the game. I don't see what you're trying to get at here. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:48, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
::And this is the one with the shared basic name in the Lang-of-origin and the only one to return in DS. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:13, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
The Japanese name "switch" is attributed to each of these by a different source: Purple Switch's is the Shogakukan SM64 guide, while the ! Switch's is the game's Japanese instruction manual. There isn't a unified source to give the same name to both types of switches, so them ending up with identical names may be more a result of happenstance than a decision to connect the two. And regardless of that, "switch" is extremely generic; the ''Wario Land 4'' frog [[Switch (Wario Land 4)|switch]] is also just called a "switch" in Japanese, but that wouldn't make a strong enough case for a merge with any of the proposal's affected articles. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:55, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
:::The SMW2 object is consistently called just "switch" in all its appearances, though, and this resembles it in both design and function. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:36, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 == Merge to ! Switch (proposal edition) ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|no consensus|7-9}}
 See above. This is just SM64's take on the SMW2 ! Switch. Also, while its color is debatable in the original, it's not even purple in the remake.
 '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': <s>September 20, 2021, 23:59 GMT September 27, 2021, 23:59 GMT October 4, 2021, 23:59 GMT</s> October 11, 2021, 23:59 GMT
+'''Deadline''': <s>September 20, 2021, 23:59 GMT</s> September 27, 2021, 23:59 GMT
 ===Support===
@@ Line 18: / Line 17: @@
 #{{user|Blinker}} What they said. I'd like to add that the unusual square shape might be an attempt to have it use less polygons.
 #{{User|TheDarkStar}} - Per all
-#{{User|PhGuy12}} - Per all. Also, the yellow ! Switch in ''Super Mario Advance 4'' has an effect practically identical to the most common function of the Purple Switch (generate blocks that serve as platforms).
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Sure. <small>That means per all.</small>
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 29: / Line 26: @@
 #{{User|Lastro}} Per all. They are different. It's like the [[P-Switch]] and [[! Switch]], except here they have both an "!" on them: they're different in purpose and in their way of functioning, so they shouldn't be merged.
 #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|WildWario}} Per all.
-#{{User|HappyToad}} Per all.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 42: / Line 37: @@
 The Japanese name "switch" is attributed to each of these by a different source: Purple Switch's is the Shogakukan SM64 guide, while the ! Switch's is the game's Japanese instruction manual. There isn't a unified source to give the same name to both types of switches, so them ending up with identical names may be more a result of happenstance than a decision to connect the two. And regardless of that, "switch" is extremely generic; the ''Wario Land 4'' frog [[Switch (Wario Land 4)|switch]] is also just called a "switch" in Japanese, but that wouldn't make a strong enough case for a merge with any of the proposal's affected articles. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:55, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
 :::The SMW2 object is consistently called just "switch" in all its appearances, though, and this resembles it in both design and function. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:36, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
-@Opposition Is anyone going to acknowledge 7feetunder's points? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:44, September 24, 2021 (EDT)
-:I don't think something being merged when it should probably be split is a good reason to merge something else. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:15, September 25, 2021 (EDT)
-::And why pray tell should those "probably be split?" That's dodging the question. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:36, September 25, 2021 (EDT)
-::In addition to the above, what would we even split them to? We don't even have a name for them, unless someone digs one up in a guide or something. Even then, guide names do not necessarily dictate that we split things (e.g. [[Talk:Purple Klaptrap#Merge with Klaptrap or remove non-DK64 information|Purple Klaptrap]], [[Nep-Enut|Submarine Nep-Enut]]).
-::'''EDIT:''' I found Player's Guides for both games online. In [https://archive.org/details/PaperMarioNintendoPowerOfficialStrategyGuide_20170328/page/n43/mode/2up the ''PM'' guide], the DDR rectangular switches are generically called "switch." "SAND SWITCH" is a section title, but I don't think it qualifies as a name because a completely identical switch is used to make stairs appear (which itself is shown in the guide) and has nothing to do with sand whatsoever. [https://archive.org/details/superpapermarionintendoplayersguide_202001/page/n29/mode/2up The ''SPM'' guide] refers to the big red Yold Ruins switch generically as a "red switch." {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 00:00, September 26, 2021 (EDT)
-:::I was mainly only referring to the Cap Switch, but now I realize that seems to just be the ! Switch's name in SM64. I still think the Purple Switch should be split though, as it's a variant with differences. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:25, September 26, 2021 (EDT)
-::::And why should it be considered the "variant" instead of Cap Switch? (Also, PM actually has a ''lot'' of variation of !-marked switches, including a single one on Shiver Mountain that looks like the ones in SMRPG). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:01, October 8, 2021 (EDT)
-== Post-proposal discussion ==
-I missed the bus on this one but it seems like there's inevitably going to be another attempt at this proposal so might as well give my thoughts on 7feetunder's arguments now for future reference. Personally I don't really think that they're the key to merging this like the supporters seem to think they are. Yeah, some of the Paper Mario games have multiple kinds of switches that aren't split from each other, including non-standard designs alongside the traditional design. There's also no official distinction between any of those switches as has already been pointed out. So how do you expect those to be split in any way that isn't confusing? And if your answer is "they shouldn't be", you're probably right (I personally agree), but that logic isn't applicable to switches that have been given official distinction. You can't really apply "consistency" here since the situations themselves aren't consistent.
-That's really the only argument that points in favor of a merge, honestly. The other is mostly technical "why are Cap Switches considered the ! Switch page instead of these" stuff, which to be honest I don't really care what happens in that regard as long as Cap Switches and Purple Switches stay split from each other since they're obviously different things. Split both, give Cap Switch its own page and merge Purple Switch to ! Switch instead, whatever you want to do. (Though my two cents is that it makes more sense to keep the switch that actually looks like the ! Switch on that page, but that's just me.)
-Not really interested in debating this any further to be honest, those are just my opinions on this. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:25, October 12, 2021 (EDT)
-:I’ve held similar views on those points brought up by 7feetunder. For one, the red and blue switches in Paper Mario are really only distinguished by the fact that one can only be activated once while the other can be activated multiple times, which shouldn’t compel us to treat them as fundamentally different objects. For two, while it’s true switches may fulfill wildly different purposes between games, they remain mechanically consistent objects within the boundaries of the games they appear in—one exception possibly being Super Mario Pinball’s red and blue switches, which is up for debate. Now, I don’t care much about which particular type of SM64 switch is chosen to be represented on this page, but one thing’s for sure: their functional, contextual, and nomenclatural boundaries have been set unequivocally enough that they should not by any means share the same article, and as a fansite we don’t have any call in bringing this into question. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:20, October 12, 2021 (EDT)
-::I have no idea why you're bringing up blue vs. red ''PM'' switches and arguing against them being "different" when I never even made a ''passing mention'' of them. In fact, they never even crossed my mind. My point was clearly about the switches with non-standard designs such as those found in Dry Dry Ruins.
-::I definitely think that if one of the two ''SM64'' switches must be split, it should be Cap Switch, because ''those'' are the ones with a consistent function. The Purple Switches do not have a consistent function - they spawn wooden block platforms, they invert triangles, they turn slopes into stairs, and they open gates (and that one isn't timed, so you can't even cling to that as a consistent effect they have). Their "unique name" is outdated as of ''SM64DS'' and only existed in the minds of the people who thought "Submarine Nep-Enut" was a separate thing.
-::As for Cap Switches using the traditional ! Switch design... that same logic can be applied to [[Red Spike Top]], so as long as that remains split the design argument isn't terribly compelling to me. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:42, October 12, 2021 (EDT)
-:::"I have no idea why you're bringing up blue vs. red ''PM'' switches and arguing against them being 'different' when I never even made a ''passing mention'' of them."
-:::I've played the game too long ago to remember specific object placements in levels, so I ended up skimming the article.
-:::Anyway, a case could indeed be made that Purple Switches deserve the spot in the article moreso than the Cap Switches. I agree with your points there. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 04:04, October 13, 2021 (EDT)