Editing Talk:Princess Daisy

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== Move to "Daisy" ==
== Move to "Daisy" ==


{{Settled TPP}}
{{TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|15-18|do not move}}


This is a big one.
This is a big one.
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#{{User|Camwoodstock}} At first, we were honestly kinda skeptical, but after reading the proposal... Wow, they ''really'' avoid using "Princess Daisy", huh? We don't see any particular reason not to go with this. Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} At first, we were honestly kinda skeptical, but after reading the proposal... Wow, they ''really'' avoid using "Princess Daisy", huh? We don't see any particular reason not to go with this. Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Oh believe me, this has been on my mind for ages. And you even have the whole King Bowser comparison that's ALSO been on my mind when thinking about this. Per proposal!
#{{User|Tails777}} Oh believe me, this has been on my mind for ages. And you even have the whole King Bowser comparison that's ALSO been on my mind when thinking about this. Per proposal!
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all – seems really similar to King Bowser.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal. Peach and Daisy are different characters and the way one is treated should have no bearing on the other.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per proposal. This page being titled 'Princess Daisy' feels like something from years ago that people haven't questioned because it seems like it makes sense, but this proposal shows that her name just being "Daisy" is very a intentional and consistent choice.
#{{User|Blinker}} I think the "keep names short" explanation stops making sense when the same games that use stuff like "Daisy" and "Larry" also have names like "Mr. Game & Watch" and "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)". Per all.
#{{User|WayslideCool}} Per all.
#{{User|Krizzy}} Per all, particularly Pseudo.


====Keep as "Princess Daisy"====
====Keep as "Princess Daisy"====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} While the proposal makes a compelling argument and isn't wrong in any of its assertions, Peach and Daisy share so many similarities in so many different regards that unless we're changing the name of Peach's page, which I don't think we should and which you acknowledge would be a harder case to sell, then I think both should include "Princess" in their page names.  I consider "Princess" as much a part of Daisy's name as "Prince" is to [[Prince Mush]], [[Princess Shroob]], [[Queen Bean]], [[Princess Lipid]], [[King Bob-omb]], [[King K. Rool]], [[Queen Bee]], [[Queen Nimbus]], [[King Nimbus]], or [[King Boo]], etc. (and believe me the list goes on), not just a title that is oftentimes associated with her, like referenced in the "King Bowser" example in the comments.  While the naming policy discourages titles in article names, we can hardly rename King Boo's article to "[[Boo]]", King Bob-omb to "[[Bob-omb]]", Queen Bean to "[[Bean]]", Queen Shroob to "[[Shroob]]", etc.  There are sometimes when exceptions need to be made, including in cases wherein the titles essentially become their "main" names, which I think includes the cases of Daisy and Peach.  
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} While the proposal makes a compelling argument and isn't wrong in any of its assertions, Peach and Daisy share so many similarities in so many different regards that unless we're changing the name of Peach's page, which I don't think we should and which you acknowledge would be a harder case to sell, then I think both should include "Princess" in their page names.  I consider "Princess" as much a part of Daisy's name as "Prince" is to [[Prince Mush]], [[Princess Shroob]], [[Queen Bean]], [[Princess Lipid]], [[King Bob-omb]], [[King K. Rool]], [[Queen Bee]], [[Queen Nimbus]], [[King Nimbus]], or [[King Boo]], etc. (and believe me the list goes on), not just a title that is oftentimes associated with her, like referenced in the "King Bowser" example in the comments.  While the naming policy discourages titles in article names, we can hardly rename King Boo's article to "[[Boo]]", King Bob-omb to "[[Bob-omb]]", Queen Bean to "[[Bean]]", Queen Shroob to "[[Shroob]]", etc.  There are sometimes when exceptions need to be made, including in cases wherein the titles essentially become their "main" names, which I think includes the cases of Daisy and Peach.  
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: Shall we move all the other articles to not use royalty titles.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} The princess name is still pretty common. I mean sure, Daisy is pretty unprincess-like, but it's not like that title is as rare as [[Rosalina|Princess Rosalina]] is. It's like if the SpongeBob wiki went to change Patrick Star's name to Patrick, because it's more common to call him by his first name. I mean, it's not like I don't don't that on Lumpypedia where where Russell the Pirate and Splendid the Flying Squirrel use shorthand names, but that was because of how quickly they were retired while Princess still has enough. It reminds me of the Koopaling situation.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think the arguments raised about other characters are a little dishonest - Daisy is a way more ubiquitous character in the franchise than King Boo or Queen Bee, and the point of this proposal is just that "Daisy" is more commonly used in isolation. That is never done with any of these other characters, and it is silly to suggest that this proposal would lead to all characters with royal monikers being truncated. However, I would not be comfortable with a rename like this unless one was also raised for [[Princess Peach]]. If this proposal was adjusted to allow for that as options, I may change my vote.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} The inconsistency between Peach and Daisy's articles would just bug me. Frankly, I feel like they should ''both'' get the "Princess" lopped off.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Nintendo101 and Ahemtoday’s comments.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - She's only really called "Daisy" in the games where Peach is just called "Peach," which appears to be mainly an attempt to keep the names short (like how many of those same games call Donkey Kong "DK"). The only difference here is that that makes up most of Daisy's appearances, but it's still used otherwise. Granted, I can see it going either way, but reminder that the proposal to move the Koopalings to their more common short names failed.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Wallowigi}} Her title is central to her identity, especially since all of her game profiles point out that her character conflicts with the (inconfutable) fact she is a princess. Bowser and Rosalina are bad comparison; the former is seldom called a king (and is generally portrayed as the leader of a population, rather than the ruler of a physical place; he does not even wear a crown, thus he’ll be almost always called just Bowser, as if he was just an army general), while Rosalina’s nobility status is ambiguous. It has always been implied she is royalty (why would she wear a crown after all?) but has never been called a princess in-game, while Daisy has, and multiple times at that.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|MCD}} - Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. Like with the Koopalings' full names, "Princess Daisy" as an article title has innate disambiguation in case an object or another character named "Daisy" appears and gets coverage on this wiki, so I see keeping this as it is as a long-term failsafe.
#{{User|Windy}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick.
#{{User|Shadow2}} This'll just lead to a weird, distracting inconsistency and won't really solve any issues. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 16:46, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per Wallowigi and Doc von Schmeltwick. We might as well rename [[Princess Peach]] to just {{fake link|Peach}} if we do this, and that's even less needed in my opinion.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
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Would we move "Princess Peach" to "Peach" at some point? Because I'm fairly certain that name sees greater use than the full "Princess Peach" across her game appearances. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:23, June 30, 2024 (EDT)
Would we move "Princess Peach" to "Peach" at some point? Because I'm fairly certain that name sees greater use than the full "Princess Peach" across her game appearances. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:23, June 30, 2024 (EDT)
:{{@|Nintendo101}} I wouldn't be opposed to such a move. I generally don't like characters' full names in page titles, since that's basically duplicating the intent behind the full_name parameter in the character infobox. Perhaps the [[Koopalings]] can be renamed too. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 22:29, June 30, 2024 (EDT)
:{{@|Nintendo101}} I wouldn't be opposed to such a move. I generally don't like characters' full names in page titles, since that's basically duplicating the intent behind the full_name parameter in the character infobox. Perhaps the [[Koopalings]] can be renamed too. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 22:29, June 30, 2024 (EDT)
::FWIW I'd support renaming the Koopalings, not so sure about Peach though.--[[User:Cadrega86|Cadrega86]] ([[User talk:Cadrega86|talk]]) 17:53, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
:::Seconded. The [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles|last attempt]] to rename the Koopalings failed, but given there's [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|now]] [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|more]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|precedent]] (and that the last proposal's failure was due in part to a strange division of the support option), it might be worth another shot. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:58, July 1, 2024 (EDT)


@DrBaskerville: I don't believe the naming policy "discourages titles", it's just a matter of using the most common name for the character, which in this case (and not in the other cases you mention) is inarguably just Daisy. Peach is Princess Peach far more often than Daisy is Princess Daisy, hence we should handle these case-by-case. If it's a precedent you want though, there's [[Princess Rosalina]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:33, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
@DrBaskerville: I don't believe the naming policy "discourages titles", it's just a matter of using the most common name for the character, which in this case (and not in the other cases you mention) is inarguably just Daisy. Peach is Princess Peach far more often than Daisy is Princess Daisy, hence we should handle these case-by-case. If it's a precedent you want though, there's [[Princess Rosalina]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:33, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
:I agree that it should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and thank you for the clarification on the naming policy.  As I said in my response by acknowledging the validity of the proposal, I don't disagree that Daisy is more commonly used; I do, however, think that "Princess Daisy" remains the best title for the page given how closely tied she is to ''Princess'' Peach.  Rosalina was a good counterexample. You have me there, but, again, case-by-case basis. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 04:10, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
: So, shall we do things like move King Boo to just Boo or King Bob-Omb to just Bob-omb? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:47, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
:: No. This proposal is not that we shouldn't use royal titles in general. The question is about the primary name of the subject, and to my knowledge there has never been a game where "Princess Daisy" is used as Daisy's primary name. We don't call Princess Rosalina or King Bowser by their royal titles in their article names either. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:50, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
I guess if I can keep expanding on my arguments, we also have cases such as Eric Cartman, where the character's name is typically Cartman. The other ''South Park'' boys are called by their first names typically, Stan Marsh, Kyle Broflovski, and Kenny McCormick. Sure, wikis don't use Eric Theodore Cartman, but they at least use Eric Cartman, because that is occasionally said. Kenny also has a full name, but it just uses these two names. It's also noteworthy, because Daisy isn't the only [[Wikipedia:Daisy Duck|fictional character named Daisy.]] Heck, [[Creeper Launcher#Daisy|we have another character in the series named Daisy!]] And of course, the Crazee Dayzees. This isn't really the Princess Rosalina situation. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 20:46, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
:...What? We aren't a South Park wiki or a SpongeBob wiki or anything else, we're a Mario wiki. It doesn't matter if other wikis would handle this differently, they're entirely separate wikis with their own policies. This kinda is the Princess Rosalina situation - it's a full name that's occasionally but not regularly used. And what do other characters named Daisy have to with anything? "Daisy" on its own is already a redirect to the princess. I'm struggling to make sense of your argument. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:05, July 2, 2024 (EDT)
:I agree with Hewer that the policies of other wikis don't generally advise Mario's Wiki's policies, so I would recommend against using other wikis as examples. My favorite part of your argument is reference to similarly named characters, like Crazee Dayzee and Creeper Launcher Daisy. Will we have to add a disambiguation to the renamed Daisy page to be "Daisy (Princess)"? That would defeat the whole purpose of the proposal in the first place. We can be fairly assured Nintendo won't release another character named "Princess Daisy", but, as seen with CLD, they're apparently not opposed to using the "Daisy" name altogether. I think that's just another reason to leave things as they currently are. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 13:56, July 2, 2024 (EDT)
::We do not need to use an identifier because people who look up "Daisy" are so very overwhelmingly more likely to be looking for the princess than the ghost. In fact, click this [[Daisy]] link and see where it takes you. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:14, July 2, 2024 (EDT)
@Nintendo101 and Ahemtoday: As pointed out in the proposal (and Koopa con Carne's comment above), "Princess Peach" is used more often than "Princess Daisy", so they aren't in the same situation snd should thus be viewed as two separate cases. "Inconsistencies" like these aren't unprecedented - there's [[Donkey Kong]] but [[Baby DK]], [[Mini-Mario]] and [[Jimmy P.]] (with punctuation) but [[Mini Luigi]] and [[Jimmy T]] (without), and we already don't use "[[Princess Rosalina]]". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:30, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:"Princess Peach" ''is'' used, but it is worth scrutinizing if "Peach" in isolation sees greater use.
:I have never personally felt convinced about the "Princess Rosalina" argument because it is a much more subdued element of that character, to the point that, growing up, I only learned she was occasionally referred to as "Princess Rosalina" through the references cited on this wiki. Her being a princess is essentially trivial. That is not the case for Peach and Daisy, who in nearly every in-game and paratextual bio are conveyed as rulers of a named land and look the part (from a Western pop culture perspective). The concept of them as true princesses is much more opaque than it ever was with Rosalina. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:54, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
::Sure Peach's name is worth scrutinizing, but that's still a separate discussion that I don't think has much reason to be linked to Daisy, where the long name is more obviously less common than the shortened one. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 01:57, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
A few people have brought this up now so I should elaborate on this point. I agree that it could also make sense to move "Princess Peach" to "Peach". However, that is not part of this proposal; it would be a separate proposal. Even though the arguments for moving the two articles are ''similar'', the main point I have for why "Daisy" is a better name for this article than "Princess Daisy" ("Princess Daisy" has never been her primary in-game name) does not apply to Peach, so even if these two things ''were'' combined into one proposal, they would still functionally be two independent proposals that people would have to develop opinions on separately regardless. I do not consider "I agree that the thing this proposal suggests should happen, but I also think a different thing that isn't part of this proposal should happen too" to be a sensible reason to vote against this proposal. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 10:35, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
:I understand your reasoning. I personally remain unsupportive of a name-change proposal that only addresses Daisy and not Peach. The inconsistency would bother me if only one was changed, in the same way a name-change proposal for Luigi that would also be potentially applicable to Mario would bother me. I would only support a proposal of this nature if it addressed both of them. Sorry. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:54, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
::To ask this question in zero uncertain terms, out of our own morbid curiosity: if someone made a proposal to do the same to Peach mid-this proposal, regardless of who made it, would the existence of that proposal--and only the existence of that proposal, this is ignoring how the Peach proposal would actually go--change your vote here? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:18, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::Maybe? Depends on what this other proposal looks like. I personally think it'd be healthier to make one proposal discussing the merits of both and delineating the options as "Remove 'Princess' from the titles for Peach and Daisy", "Only move Princess Peach to Peach", "Only move Princess Daisy to Daisy", "Leave them as is." That's what I would've done at least. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:14, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
::::What is the functional difference between that and two separate proposals? The only thing I can think of is that it would be harder for a joint proposal covering two independent changes to reach a majority vote than two separate proposals, but I'm sure that can't be the reason you'd prefer the two princesses to be covered by the same proposal. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 16:48, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Quite a few of the arguments for one are applicable to both, and more importantly (for me at least), if the proposal passes, it means they would be changed at the same time so there is no prolonged period of time where one is called "Princess Peach" while the other is just called "Daisy". - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:42, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
::::::As pointed out by Koopa con Carne at the top of this comment section, official sources aren't averse to doing exactly that. And again, I raise [[Jimmy T]] vs [[Jimmy P.|P.]], [[Mini-Mario]] vs [[Mini Luigi]], and [[Donkey Kong]] vs [[Baby DK]] - why so much concern about consistency between two separate characters with separate appearances and separate names? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:08, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::It just bothers me. Do I need a deeper reason? Others are welcomed to disagree. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:53, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::[[MarioWiki:Proposals]] suggests that a user "must have a strong reason" for their vote, and that other users can "call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 13:15, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::I thought my vote would be received as understandable and innocuous, not as controversial or unsubstantiated. Perhaps that was naïve of me. Allow me to further substantiate my vote.
:::::::::In the language (citing this article on {{wp|Film#Language|film}} for context on what I am referring to – I do not mean literal written text) of nearly all of the games in which they both appear, Peach and Daisy are intended to mirror each other, and it has been that case for multiple decades and as recently as the [[Super Mario Bros. Wonder|latest mainline game entry]] in 2023. The relationship between these two as presented is comparable to that of Mario and Luigi, and I think to suggest that is unreasonable or subjective is not substantiated by the games they appear in together.
:::::::::Consequently, I think to change the name of one character (Daisy) while leaving the other the same (Princess Peach), not only looks imbalanced, but also artificially trivializes their long-standing relationship by passively suggesting that Daisy is a wholistically different (and potentially even lesser) character to Peach. We as users may understand that to not be the case, but I uncritically felt that would be part of the impression to readers with a change for one without the other, in the same way a change of a name proposal affecting Luigi without Mario would be similarly received. Maybe that doesn’t matter to other users, and that’s fine. But it bothers me.
:::::::::Why is this different from characters like Baby DK or Jimmy P. and their respective counterparts? It is readily obvious. It is because these characters are far less significant. Peach and Daisy are among the most prolific and recurring characters in the entire media franchise. I think Baby DK has appeared in two games. The name discrepancy between him and the adult Donkey Kong is fundamentally unimportant with regards to how they are perceived, and it is silly to suggest it is an analogous situation. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:39, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::I think I understand your position now (Thank you for clarifying! It's very helpful, genuinely.), but I still don't understand why that position means you're voting against the change this proposal suggests. Imagine if I had made a version of the proposal where moving this article and moving "Princess Peach" to "Peach" are presented as two independent options. I'll assume that moving Peach would be about as controversial as this suggestion to move Daisy has been, but that having a "move both Peach and Daisy" option would sway a significant number of people would otherwise not want to move Princess Daisy to Daisy. I'd expect the end result of that to be something around one third of people suggesting to move both Peach and Daisy, one third of people suggesting to only move Daisy, and one third of people suggesting not to move either article. None of these options reach a majority vote, so the proposal is delayed multiple times until it eventually it ends without any consensus, and by default nothing happens and neither article is moved. Alternatively, if moving both articles ''does'' get a majority vote, fully implementing the change would take longer for "Princess Peach" than it would for "Princess Daisy", so there would still be an awkward transitional period where we have "Daisy" and "Princess Peach". In what way would this address your concerns here that wouldn't be better handled by two separate proposals? {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 10:26, July 8, 2024 (EDT)
::::::A proposal covering multiple articles at the same time doesn't mean the articles will be changed simultaneously. [[Goomba (film species)]] was merged about two months after [[Snifit (film species)]] even though they were decided by the same proposal, because those changes involved different amounts of work and were done by different editors. Changing "Princess Peach" to "Peach" site-wide would probably happen a little while after changing "Princess Daisy" to "Daisy" even if the two changes ''were'' approved simultaneously. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 18:35, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
People keep bringing up Rosalina, but has she ''ever'' been treated as a "princess" in-game at any time? From what I've seen, she's usually treated as more of a queen, but it seems to be deliberately left vague. Much unlike Daisy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:38, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
:To my knowledge, Rosalina has never been directly called a princess in-game (only in paratext), but I'm also unaware of anything outside of paratext saying directly that she's royalty of any kind, and I don't know what "usually treated as more of a queen" is supposed to be referring to. Regardless, the example I used in the proposal itself ("King Bowser") is a better comparison, I think. Daisy is almost never called Princess Daisy, but it's not a strictly paratext-exclusive title like "Princess Rosalina". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 16:41, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
::Well, from what I can gather, it's sometimes unclear what kind of leader Bowser is anyway. In a lot of the more recent games, his minions (including the Koopalings) address him as '''Lord''' Bowser. I'm pretty sure "lord" is not the same thing as "king". Yet, ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' has '''King''' Bowser's Keep as a board?<br>As for Rosalina, confusion about the Princess title [[Talk:Rosalina#Princess?|existed before the game came out too]]. Apparently, back when the article was created on July 19 2007 under the name "Princess Rosetta", it was stated that the name came from [https://gonintendo.com/archives/20288-princess-rosetta a GoNintendo article around the time]. They got the "Rosetta" name from a Famitsu article [https://gonintendo.com/?p=21437 which they also posted]; however, said Famitsu article never referred Rosetta as a princess, instead calling her a "mysterious woman" (謎の女性); the "princess" part came from GoNintendo, as they initially assumed Rosalina to be Peach before they found out the other princess's name is Rosetta, then wondered if Mario would be meeting other princesses in Galaxy. The only other official material I can find is [https://archive.org/details/super-mario-galaxy-prima-strategy-guide/page/n7/mode/2up the Prima Guide], which has "Not much is known about Rosalina, the lonely princess who wanders the cosmos in the Comet Observatory [...]" in her cast description. Buuuut Prima tends to get things wrong: the very same guide claims that Koopas like Bowser and Bowser Jr. are based on the kappa.<br>If you're asking me, people outside of Nintendo simply ''assumed'' Rosalina is a princess, ''just'' because she looks a lot like Peach, who ''is'' a princess; but these assumptions were never confirmed to be true by Nintendo. That's very different from Daisy, who has been officially confirmed a princess on several occasions as early as the ''Super Mario Land'' manual and box art. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:49, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
:::"Lord" is probably just being used in a non-technical sense to show Bowser's minions' deference to him, and the other three sources for "princess" in the infobox on [[Rosalina]]'s article come straight from Nintendo. Either way though, I think we're losing track a bit of the point of this proposal - we aren't debating whether Daisy is a princess, we're debating whether she should be referred to by the name "Princess Daisy" or the name "Daisy", and the latter name is more common regardless of her royal status. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:02, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
::::Rosalina's thing makes me think more of Disney's "Princess" brand, wherein most are not actually princesses, and many aren't even royalty. My point is that Rosalina's a bad example. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:39, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
@Doc von Schmeltwick: One of the proposal's main points is that there has never been a game in which she's primarily called "Princess Daisy". This isn't just "most of Daisy's appearances", it's all of Daisy's appearances. The "other" cases where "Princess Daisy" is used are in the minority. The Koopalings proposal may have failed, but as I brought up above, it's now contrasted with several successful name shortening proposals, and honestly the Koopalings should be next in line. And do you have an example of the DK thing? Because I've played my share of Mario spin-offs and can't think of one where the primary names for these characters weren't "Peach", "Daisy", and "Donkey Kong". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:44, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
:''Every'' N64-era spinoff just called him "DK" on the select screen and often elsewhere. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:39, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
::Well, it's not the N64 era anymore. He's been "Donkey Kong" in every Mario Kart game since Double Dash, every Mario Tennis game except the first one, every Mario Golf game since Toadstool Tour, every Baseball, Strikers, and Party game, every Mario & Sonic game... and in all of these games, Daisy is just Daisy. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:23, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Wallowigi}} This proposal is not suggesting that the wiki should stop referring to Daisy as a princess. It is suggesting that the wiki should not use "Princess Daisy" as the name of this article. Regardless of what royal titles Bowser may or may not hold, he is called "King Bowser" (or other similar things) about as often as Daisy is called "Princess Daisy". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 16:15, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::I know. The problem here is that Princess Daisy is indeed an official name that reflects Daisy's princess status; the fact that she is called just "Daisy" more often does not go against that "Princess Daisy" is her full "name". If anything, I'd bring the outfit matter as comparison: Daisy has worn her sports outfit in more games than she has her dress as of now, but her picture is (rightfully) portraying a render of her with a dress. I think both this and the name matter make clear that she is a princess first and foremost, with her “casualness” being a secondary trait. Going by the logic of the proposal, that values the number of occurrences rather than their importance, Daisy's profile picture should be changed to one in her sports outfit. Of course, that's not my only reason to oppose the proposal; I think I should have added a “per all, but also” at the start. My actual main concern is the discrepancy with Peach's article title, since it can lead to misconceptions for both new wiki users and newbies with the Mario series- they'd understand that the character is just a casual girl who so happens to be a princess, despite her having been created as a stand-in for Peach itself, thus as the princess of her kingdom, which is the setting of the game itself. The Mario fandom is already chock full of misconceptions (terminally online fans like me know), and the thought of Daisy as being this casual tomboy who is probably not even a princess is already widespread. Changing only Daisy's title and not Peach's despite the two having been created for the same purpose would only bring these misconceptions further. If anything, I would only be in favor of moving "Princess Daisy" to "Daisy" if "Princess Peach" is also moved to "Peach".[[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]])
:::No need to list every single trait that makes Daisy royalty, we know she is royalty. The proposal isn't about discounting Daisy's overall status as a princess, it's about dropping the "Princess" qualifier in the title of her article. "Princess Daisy" may be an official title, as the proposal points out, but the short version "Daisy" is used infinitely more across the franchise, even as far back as her debut appearance. [[Professor E. Gadd]]'s page isn't called "Professor Elvin Gadd" for a very similar reason: his full name may be Elvin Gadd, but the shortened form sees much more use. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:46, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::The problem is that I don't think how changing the title of the article just for the number of occurrences of "Daisy" compared to "Princess Daisy" is a benefit for the wiki and/or the fandom in any way. Just re-read what I've said about her outfit. I've been a bit on the long side with words, but basically what I meant to say is "she’s Princess Daisy who occasionally wears sports clothes and is called just Daisy, not the contrary despite the effective number of occurrences of her titled name (and dress) are actually less". Calling the article "Daisy", or swapping her picture from her dress to her sports outfit just because of the number of appearances, would imply the character's royalty status is just an occasional persona of her. [[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]])
:::::Her outfit is completely irrelevant to the proposal and what it seeks to accomplish. You're the first one to bring up her physical appearance.<br>"Calling the article 'Daisy' [...] would imply the character's royalty status is just an occasional persona of her." Then again, we can't tell that Mario is a hero or plumber, that Rosalina is the protector of the cosmos, or that Donkey Kong is the leader of the Kong family from their page titles alone. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:15, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I'm a bit confused by your dismissal of how much the name is used, and your earlier allusion to "importance" of appearances being a factor. What's an "important" appearance? And more importantly, how does that matter, considering that ''none'' of Daisy's appearances have primarily called her "Princess Daisy"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:02, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::::{{@|Koopa con Carne}} the outfit thing is to make a comparison, with the priority to number of appearances and all. If the title of a page should reflect the most used name for a character, why shouldn't the profile picture reflect the most common physical appearance of them? That's why the proposal seems flawed to me. Also I'm pretty sure Peach has been also called just Peach in more games than she has Princess Peach, so I really don't understand why change Daisy and not her as well (or, for the matter, add "King" to Bowser's page title). {{@|Hewer}} none? :/ Not even Super Mario Land, where she is called "Daisy Princess" (a misnomer, but still “princess Daisy” backwards)? My "dismissal" of the number of appearances of a name, I've pointed out that just above with the case of Peach. [[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]])
:::::::She isn't called "Daisy Princess" or "Princess Daisy" in SML, she's just called "Daisy". What you're referring to is the game's manual, which is a tier lower than the game itself according to the [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|source priority policy]]. "If the title of a page should reflect the most used name for a character, why shouldn't the profile picture reflect the most common physical appearance of them?" Because the infobox picture and the article's title are two completely distinct aspects of this character and one of them had never once been mentioned in the proposal or the ensuing 30-comment discussion until you did. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:24, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::The game manual is still an acceptable source, as it has not been made by Prima. It's official Nintendo material. Also, given the canonicity policy, the name "Princess Daisy" is just as canon as Daisy is. It is not obsolete (see "Toadstool" for Peach, which has never been in use since the latter's confirmation), nor it has ever been retconned (heck, they still refer to her as Princess Daisy and mention Sarasaland when it could have been retconned a long time ago). In regards of the infobox, I don't see what is so different when the policies for the title to give an article and for the picture to be put in it are pretty much the same ([element] that is used the most/being judged the most representative of a character). Plus, do you really have to be so heated over a comment I haven't even made, but ''answered''? AND reply to the point I've given in response to Hewer? We're not having a fight or a trial here. There's no "wrong" and "right", and you should expect opposition. After all, if you really put it in teams (which is petty and childish if you ask me), we're 13 to 13, so this proposal might even fail. Don't hold your hopes that much high for something that is not even that serious. [[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]])
:::::::::"Canon" isn't in question here. As the proposal acknowledges, Princess Daisy ''is'' her full title. This is about the naming policy, which recommends using the most common in-game English name for a subject, and in this case that's "Daisy". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:55, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::If you're sure you're trying to adhere to a policy that reportedly states what you've said, why make a proposal, then? :/ If you've made a proposal, you should expect at least some disagreement, as I've said before. I'm also not the only lone contrarian to disagree with your proposal, as there are other 12 people who have their own reasons to (as I've said, we're not "teams", nor do I consider them my "allies" since it’s not war), but they still are a considerable number of people. You could have just changed the article name to have your "victory" (at least before somebody would have probably reverted it back).[[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]])
:::::::::::What point are you trying to make? Who are you replying to with the "we're not teams" thing? Nobody before you framed it in that way. I'm not trying to win an argument; I'm trying to correct what appear to be misunderstandings of what this proposal is suggesting and the reasons it has for suggesting it. Part of the responsibility of making a proposal is to clear up things like that when they happen. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 20:27, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::No one except you ever said that they expected no opposition, that you are a "lone contrarian", that we're "teams" in a "war", or that we're trying to achieve "victory". You appear to have made up all that pretence for the sake of your strawman argument. (Also, in response to what you said earlier, people can respond to each other's points in a conversation without implying a division of "teams" or a "wrong and right", I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:31, July 8, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm not heated at all. Methinks you're doing a wee bit of projection lol {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 02:29, July 8, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|SmokedChili}} I don't think that's completely fair. Using the Koopalings as an example, [[Roy (Mario Tennis: Power Tour)|another ''Mario'' character named Roy has an article]], but [[Roy]] still redirects to the Koopaling. Even if another Daisy is introduced, it is very unlikely that Princess Daisy would stop being the primary "Daisy" people associate with the greater ''Super Mario'' franchise, for the same reason [[Super Mario Bros. (disambiguation)|the several pieces of media called ''Super Mario Bros.'']] don't mean we have to move ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'' to "''Super Mario Bros.'' (Nintendo Entertainment System)". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 09:04, July 8, 2024 (EDT)
:That SMB example requires an identifier courtesy of us, try more like Super Mario RPG. With Roy redirecting to Roy Koopa and Daisy to Princess Daisy, I see no problem with an exception for shortened name used as a shortcut for a full name. And now that I checked, we're actually late on [[Peach Blossom#Daisy Blossom|another "Daisy" article]]. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:10, July 8, 2024 (EDT)
::I don't think I understand this response. The point of the SMB example is that, like Daisy, it doesn't require an identifier, not that it does. And what makes the shortened names acceptable as redirects but not article titles? And are you really suggesting the big daisies in Smash that show up for a few seconds at a time and aren't even notable enough for their own page could have any chance at taking priority over the major recurring character (the very character who produces them) for the "Daisy" name? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:08, July 9, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|FanOfRosalina2007}} This proposal is not about Princess Peach. That would be a separate proposal. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 08:49, July 12, 2024 (EDT)
:@JanMisali: Okay, I used the wrong wording there. I am completely aware that this is a separate proposal. I didn't express my opinion correctly, but I can't think of any other way to put it. I'll go ahead and remove that statement. {{unsigned|FanOfRosalina2007}}
::Other people have used Peach as an argument in this proposal. I don't see anything wrong with your statement. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 03:01, July 14, 2024 (EDT)
== If Daisy gets voiced by Deanna Mustard again in Super Mario Party Jamboree, do we change the latest portrayal to Deanna Mustard? ==
Since it’s not a port, it seems like this issue will probably come up. Giselle might have it better listed as a 2023 only portrayal until (maybe) she officially comes back. Like how Kerri Kane did one game and then Laura Faye Smith became Rosalina’s voice actress, but it went right back to Kerri after for Mario Kart Arcade GP DX, Mario Golf: World Tour, and Super Smash Bros. 3DS. [[Special:Contributions/47.223.58.232|47.223.58.232]] 07:51, July 29, 2024 (EDT)
:Has it been confirmed anywhere, though? [[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]])
::Confirmed to changed to new voice actors, ''including'' Waluigi. [[User:Windy|Windy]] ([[User talk:Windy|talk]]) 12:02, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
== I have a small piece of missing information for Daisy's article, but her article is protected. ==
Daisy's article features a relationship section. When it's stated that Luigi has a crush on Daisy in Mario Party 4's strategy guide, there is a citation that the page number is missing. I've found that this information is on page 6. I'm not very familiar with wiki stuff or article editing, so I might just be oblivious to a policy of referencing official scans on strategy guides. [[User:Toon|Toon]], {{user|Toon}}

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