Editing Talk:Preying Mantas

Is Mantas singular or plural? Both are used in the article, but if it's the latter, this page should be Preying Manta. {{User:Phoenix Rider/sig}} 18:44, 11 July 2009 (EDT)
:Definitely plural, I'll change the article (you can move it and delete this page) - {{User|Marioguy1}}
::Additionally, shouldn't it be spelled "'''Pray'''ing Manta" instead of "'''Prey'''ing Manta"(as it is a pun on '''Pray'''ing mantis)? Someone should check the instruction booklet to see how it is spelled. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User talk:Yoshario|Y]]'''oshario'''</font></span>[[File:Yoshi Mario Hat SM64DS.png|30px]]
:::I don't have the game (or the booklet) but on google, one of the sites says it's preying, should we trust it> - {{User|Marioguy1}}
:What site is it? Not all sources are reliable. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User talk:Yoshario|Y]]'''oshario'''</font></span>[[File:Yoshi Mario Hat SM64DS.png|30px]]
::[http://www.smbhq.com/yichar.htm] does that help? - {{User|Marioguy1}}
:::That seems like it could be an error on the author's part. {{User:Phoenix Rider/sig}} 20:00, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Based on my findings at Wikipedia Japan, the jellyfish enemy that appears in SMG and SMG2 is not a Preying Mantas but a different enemy called ユラリ Yurari. Should this be made into it's own page? [[User:Vent|Vent]] 14:45, 28 May 2012 (EDT)
:I also think Jammyfish should have a separate page. They are clearly not the same enemy. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 16:13, 30 July 2015 (EDT)

== French name source ==

Where have you found the french name? I putted a citation needed, since the source is unknown. The one who putted it isn't active since a few years (i checked the history), and there's no source for it. Maybe it's on a specific french guide? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:24, 29 October 2018 (EDT)

== Merge with [[Jellyfish]] ==

{{TPP}}
It's just a normal jellyfish with a wacky, but thoroughly obsolete, nickname. Most licensed guidebooks, each for three different releases with decades spacing them out, straight up call them ''[[wiktionary:くらげ|kurage]]'' (Japanese for "jellyfish", the literal animal). It's the Player's Guide for SMW2 that's the odd one out, and let's not forget that it's the same book that calls Cheep Cheeps "Flopsy Fish"/"Piscatory Pete", Ukikis "Grinders", and separates one particular [[Nep-Enut]] from its species just because it's found underground. Before someone inevitably mentions it, I'm not even making a case for how the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English one just because the ''Yoshi's Island'' games themselves were developed in Japan--given the existence of no direct source, such as a manual or the games, to attest the name of this enemy, it's simply a case of 3 different, largely more current sources against 1 source from 1995, all equally official,{{footnote|main|*}} irrespective of their language.

And I mean, yeah, real jellyfish don't have eyes, but fictional attributes don't necessarily prevent a subject from being treated as equivalent to its real life inspiration on this wiki. This fellow [[File:Jellyfish.png]] from ''Mario & Wario'' also has eyes and is currently covered on the [[Jellyfish]] article; and I'm no marine biologist, but I don't think actual jellyfish [[Jellyfish#Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze|discharge electricity]] like what that article appears to suggest.

Given a merge, the section that would cover the Yoshi's Island jellyfish would, of course, still acknowledge the Player's Guide name, but treat it as no more than a curiosity (in the same way the [[Cheep Cheep#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|SMW2 section for Cheep Cheep]] acknowledges the names coming from that book).

{{footnote|note|*|[[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming]] puts Player's Guides above most other third-party guidebooks, including all non-English guidebooks, on the sourcing priority list, but I'm pretty sure the policy only concerns names, which are a different deal from a subject's ''identity''. Like, Cheep Cheeps are called "Piscatory Petes" in a Player's Guide, but they're still the same as Cheep Cheeps and aren't split from their parent article; naming alone shouldn't dictate how articles are organized.}}

'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal (Although, I would say that "the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English", not "just because the Yoshi's Island games themselves were developed in Japan", but also because a lot of names (such as "Gerogero", "Pudding", "Kounbaba" and "Biyooon Obake") used in the books are corroborated by [https://tcrf.net/Development:Super_Mario_World_2:_Yoshi's_Island/Sprites development info])
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - I was too cowardly to do this. Per (especially since one of the two appearances has no English guide to name it anyway).

====Oppose====
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} For the reasons Nintendo101 came up with on the Discord server, being "It has a recurring design, function, and is recognized as a proper enemy in the paratext".
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I can't say this case is the same as Piscatory Pete and Flopsy Fish. For one, this enemy is the only one here that has reappeared in Yoshi's New Island with an unchanged design (Piscatory Petes do not exist in New Island). I also think it's very distinct compared to generic cases of Jellyfish and it plays distinctly too (you can jump on them and they move up and down.) In addition, [[Dr. Freezegood]] is also simply called "Snowman" in Japanese, yet I would also oppose the merge because it was given a unique name to distinguish itself from other snowmen (also with an unchanged design from the first game rather than using something more generic or [[Mr. Blizzard]] or something). I'd say in this case, it's better off split.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I understand the thought process here, but I personally do not think names are the only thing that should be considered when contemplating lumps or splits. I understand this would be less apparent if it was already lumped with generic jellyfish, but this specific subject has a recurring design, function, and is recognized as an “enemy” in the paratext for the games it appears in (namely page 42 in the Shogakukan guidebook, page 128 in the Nintendo Power guidebook, and page 18 in the Nintendo of Europe guidebook). It does not seem to me to be a generic jellyfish, and I do not think it was intended to be understood as one in the same way Dr. Freezegood is likely not supposed to be perceived as a generic snowman despite its Japanese name. I think it would be more accurate for Preying Mantas to retain their article, separate from generic jellyfish.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. And even if it weren't for the above opposition, i would still have opposed on my own. If anything, i'd be for overturning the Piscatory Pete proposal.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. It's a reoccurring enemy with a distinct design and name.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} 'Cause it would have acted like Dry Bones on land during development.

====Comments====
Should also be mentioned that its name is a bit unclear: neither preying mantises nor mantas are a type of jellyfish. Speaking of Jellyfish, isn't it odd that the ''Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze'' jellyfish is integrated into the [[Jellyfish]] article despite having a completely different name in Japanese (''Pikkarin'' as opposed to ''kurage'' (oddly enough also the ''only'' Japanese name listed there)), while the ''Yoshi's Story'' jellyfish [[Jellyfish (Yoshi's Story)|has its own article]] ''because'' its got a different Japanese name (''Kuragebon'', which is more similar to ''kurage'' than ''Pikkarin'' is)? Shouldn't the DKCTF variant be split as well? {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:56, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:The section for the DKCTF jellyfish was added to the article long before the ''Pikkarin'' name was discovered. Regardless, there's an assumption that the licensed paratext written in the original language of its corresponding game decides how a subject is organized--with the DKCTF jellyfish, the Prima guide takes priority because the language of the game's developer is English, while for the Yoshi's Story jellyfish, priority is shifted to the Japanese guidebook. I agree, though, that this point of view is flawed and needs further consideration. The language used in a licensed guide isn't an indicator of how "close" the guide is to the vision of a game's creators. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 10:12, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::For what it's worth, from what I've seen Retro Studios file names tend to be incredibly utilitarian in the "meaningless string of numbers and letters" variety, though I might not be looking in the right place. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:23, September 14, 2024 (EDT)

@Opposition, the enemy's recurring function is floating through the water (like a jellyfish) and stunning the player character, not even hurting them like the Tropical Freeze jellyfish (considered generic [[jellyfish]] by the wiki). Is a jelly. Being an obstacle [[Snowman#Mario Kart series|doesn't]] [[Crab#Mario Kart 64|make]] [[Frog#Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon|it]] [[Penguin#Mario Kart series|any]] [[Crow#Luigi's Mansion series|less]] generic, in fact I think that aligns with the reality that a few real life jellies have {{wp|Jellyfish#Stings|harmful effects on humans}}. The enemy's design can just be chalked up to being the Yoshi's Island series' interpretation of the animal, and there's never been an active effort to make it a separate "brand" of jellyfish, like [[Sidestepper]] can be considered the Mario series' non-generic generic crab. Had the name "Preying Mantas" not existed, wouldn't this situation be even more clear-cut? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:48, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:We merging [[Crabber]] then? {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 17:50, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::[[Crabber#Names in other languages|No.]] {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:52, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::Didn't realize it has a different name in Japanese. Still, I am keeping my oppose vote. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 17:53, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::Preying Mantas don't electrocute the character. AFAIK they act the same as any other fish in SNES Yoshi's Island in terms of damage and they are actually stompable in Yoshi's New Island. That actually makes them considerably different than the generic jellyfish you are proposing to merge to. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:13, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Should we split [[Crab]], then? The ones in MK64 are obstacles and are "considerably different" from the collectible ones in DKC for GBA. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:34, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::::If the crab in DKC for GBA are called "Pinching Thing That Kills Giant Ape" in NOA localization, were recurring, kept that design, then yes. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:35, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::That I can't agree with, sorry. They're crabs. And these are jellies, in spite of what a zany 1995 American guide has to say. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:39, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::That "zany 1995 American guide" is licensed by Nintendo and it's the only official name we have in regards to this creature's name, and I think should take priority over Japanese guidebooks which are the same amount of reliability as these guidebooks. This creature is more similar to Dr. Freezegood than it is to Piscatory Pete vs Cheep Cheep with its more stand-out design and behavior endemic to the Yoshi series and I think it's much more servicable and searchable for our readerbase to use the Preying Mantas name in service of that guidebook than it is relying on Japanese names and internal data to tuck away at a barely related catch all species page. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:53, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::The SEO argument, I also disagree with. The site's purpose is not to cater to what readers project in the series. Misidentifying a subject based on one old guidebook is the opposite of doing a service to people interested in Mario. There are three other guidebooks released at different points in time (one as recently as 2014) that provide a consistent perspective on this enemy; pushing them aside just because they're not English is disingenuous. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:02, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::I've never "pushed them aside just because they're not English", so don't make accusations that I'm acting "disingenuous". I already know that Japanese guidebooks can be useful but in this case, this isn't a "misidentification" (which is a claim actually based on speculation than word of mouth, only drawing connections because some other enemies also have inconsistent names), it's literally named this in a guidebook provided to the English speaking audience of the game, and this is the only known name we've had for this entity, since there are no other English name guidebooks. This merge hinges entirely on Japanese guidebooks based on a Japanese name while ignoring the localized name, in which how it should be referred to in regards to the English speaking audience is dubious. To me, this is a distinct entity from the generic jellies, the NOA localizers for the SNES Yoshi's Island thought so, and until this enemy reappears in a future game under the name jelly, I think it's much safer to leave the page as it is, and I really think it's more optimal since people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:01, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::They also thought distinctions we don't split pages by, and redirects exist for a reason. Admittedly, this is still a very weird outlier as the ''only'' "enemy"-type thing in the game to have a totally generic real-world animal description for a name. There are other generic-named things, but most are obstacles or based off archetypes ([[Slime Drop|Slime]], for example). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:20, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::And your argument is that the English guide should take priority over all the other guides simply because it's in English. I'm not "ignoring it", I'm fully cognizant of its existence, but I'm measuring it up against the three other guides, two being more recent. The reality of the matter is that, while official, the American guide has a pattern of taking liberties with enemy names that have long been rendered obsolete; [[Talk:Solo Toady#Comments 3|it has been contended on this wiki before that its reliability is shaky.]] To quote {{user|LinkTheLefty}} in that discussion, "<br>"the SNES-era Nintendo Power guide makes far too many little distinctions that are outright contradicted by other officially licensed sources, sometimes even the GBA-era Nintendo Power guide and later the Yoshi's Island DS ones (English!), and the wiki as a whole no longer treats every single instance from that solitary source as splitting grounds."<br>* * *<br>"people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook"<br>Do you honestly think so? That people who browse this site are normally aware of an old, out-of-print Player's Guide beforehand, and base their search around it? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 03:16, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::It's an English wiki. Of course English names take priority because they're English, and I think it should take priority over the Japanese names. In this case, there are no other instances of this enemy being named in any other English guidebooks and I still think it's better to still refer to this as its only name in spite of other enemies just because that's the only source it has. (Also I don't agree with the Solo Toady merge too). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:57, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::While names would indeed be based around English, I disagree that organization should, because it ''begs'' for inconsistencies when subjects that are separate in Japanese and named the same in English suddenly appear together - like what happened with [[Galoomba]]. Anyway, I'd feel a bit better about the localized name if the entire guidebook weren't written in ''radical 90s dude'' language, because most of the odd names, descriptions, and splits-and-merges stem from that and that alone. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:10, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The wiki's lingua franca shouldn't determine how concepts are organized, because it can lend a biased view on the developments of the concepts within the Mario series that may not accurately reflect the true creative authority of those concepts. Not to mention it's... ever so slightly discriminatory as well. Assume these guides are general knowledge to their target audience, to the same degree a game is (they're far from it, as I myself pointed out above, but let's do it for the argument). You're saying a Japanese person, who came to acknowledge this thing in the same light as any other generic fictional jellyfish, is inherently denied their perspective here because their native language isn't English? I mean, that perspective could be "inaccurate" for all we know and care, but the ''native language'' of the person and the means they interact with the franchise is simply not a metric to work with here. While I acknowledge this notion isn't explicit in your comment, "English wiki, English goes" practically implies preferential treatment of a particular segment of audience over another (and you even stated the following: "I really think it's more optimal since people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook", the assumption being that these invoked people primarily speak one language and have access to works localized in ''that'' language).<br>'''This is a multinational franchise.''' Its assets are of wide provenance and altogether form a whole, and the reoccurence of a particular idea, as well as the hierarchy of officiality and by extension how close they can be considered to be to the creator's vision, should ''not'' hinge on one language arbitrarily chosen to convey that information. To put it bluntly: this view of "[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Preying_Mantas&diff=prev&oldid=4366761 [redacted<nowiki>]</nowiki>]" is shortsighted (and that's coming from a guy with glasses [[File:Cranky Kong DKC3 sprite.png]]) {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:58, September 15, 2024 (EDT), edited 17:29, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::You know, I wanted to respond to you but I draw the line of conversation by you outright accusing me of being jingoistic and discrimination, and I won't engage with that level of intellectual discourse. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:10, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::You said what you said. The patriotism part was meant to be a jokey way to frame that point, not an accusation of jingoism, but I censored it out and I apologize for that wording specifically. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:17, September 15, 2024 (EDT)

The literature I provided citations for above, including the Japanese source for the name Kurage, categorize Preying Mantas as enemies (i.e. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos), not as obstacles (i.e. typically abiotic subjects). That seems to be of deliberate categorical importance, and not something I personally feel can be comfortably lumped with other subjects.
I think a relevant point of comparison is that information on Bowser's transformation from the ''Super Mario Bros.'' live-action film and dinosaurs from the ''Super Mario World'' cartoon were removed from the [[T-Rex]] article, because even though it is is based on a real-life species of dinosaur, the article is not generic in scope. It covers the capturable enemy from ''Super Mario Odyssey''. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:03, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
:The Dinosaur article covers dinosaurs in general, the T-Rex one covers one particular member of that group. They'd have stayed split even if the Odyssey T-Rex wasn't capturable. Dinohattanites are also a very peculiar human-like reptilian race that are said to evolve from dinosaurs. Here, there's nothing that points to Preying Mantas being analogous to a particular real species of jellyfish; it's just called a jellyfish. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:12, September 14, 2024 (EDT)
::I'm sorry, I may not have conveyed the point I was making in bringing that up. The reason why that information was removed was not because they weren't ''Tyrannosaurus rex'', it was because the article reflects T-Rex in the narrowest sense - [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=T-Rex&diff=3088992&oldid=3088985 the enemy from ''Super Mario Odyssey'']. I think having an article dedicated to a recurring subject (such as the Preying Mantas) with the same design, behavior, and paratextual systematics across appearances is a sincere reflection of the material in the games and is inherently clarifying that it is not a generic subject (or at least that is my impression. Other interpretations are valid). I think my perspective would be a bit different if, say, there was a guidebook released for ''Yoshi's New Island'' that explicitly discussed this subject in a generic context and/or did not categorize it as an enemy. To the best of my knowledge, or at least from the digging I have done for this, no such resources exist (not even a Prima Guidebook, unfortunately). It'd be nice if there was some sort of "Yoshi Portal," but in lieu of something like that or some other contemporary clarification, I do not think I would support lumping it with generic jellyfish subjects. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:35, September 14, 2024 (EDT)

I'm opposing on the grounds they were apparently gonna act like Dry Bones on land originally. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:56, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
:Or at least, that was going to be a variant. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:02, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
::And how does an unused bone jellyfish enemy affect anything about this proposal, exactly? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:03, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
:::Yeah, where'd that even come from? 😂 Nothing suggests the Dry Bones-like enemy is an early version of Preying Mantis. Could've just been a variant. We don't know just from a collection of assets. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:30, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
::::It was going to be a variant, yes. The filenames call it "Honekurage" ("Bone Jellyfish"). [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:34, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Probably trying to make a point that this jellyfish has a bit more going for it than the generic jellyfish lumping but this unused enemy has zero relevance to what we actually got. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:59, September 15, 2024 (EDT)

I have to say, I find it a bit curious this proposal is getting such opposition after the crow and frog one failed... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:03, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
:It's because of the localized name, which isn't contradictory. Had the crows in Luigi's Mansion been named "Murderous Corvids" it would have gotten its own page. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:12, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
::Actually, it's more because that game had most of its actual development done in the west (thus not really a "localization" thing). Unlike ''Yoshi's Island''. In this case, merging would, in fact, be consistent with that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:17, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 == Merge with [[Jellyfish]] ==
-{{settled TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|failed|3-11|Do not merge}}
+{{TPP}}
 It's just a normal jellyfish with a wacky, but thoroughly obsolete, nickname. Most licensed guidebooks, each for three different releases with decades spacing them out, straight up call them ''[[wiktionary:くらげ|kurage]]'' (Japanese for "jellyfish", the literal animal). It's the Player's Guide for SMW2 that's the odd one out, and let's not forget that it's the same book that calls Cheep Cheeps "Flopsy Fish"/"Piscatory Pete", Ukikis "Grinders", and separates one particular [[Nep-Enut]] from its species just because it's found underground. Before someone inevitably mentions it, I'm not even making a case for how the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English one just because the ''Yoshi's Island'' games themselves were developed in Japan--given the existence of no direct source, such as a manual or the games, to attest the name of this enemy, it's simply a case of 3 different, largely more current sources against 1 source from 1995, all equally official,{{footnote|main|*}} irrespective of their language.