Editing Talk:Preying Mantas
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== Merge with [[Jellyfish]] == | == Merge with [[Jellyfish]] == | ||
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It's just a normal jellyfish with a wacky, but thoroughly obsolete, nickname. Most licensed guidebooks, each for three different releases with decades spacing them out, straight up call them ''[[wiktionary:くらげ|kurage]]'' (Japanese for "jellyfish", the literal animal). It's the Player's Guide for SMW2 that's the odd one out, and let's not forget that it's the same book that calls Cheep Cheeps "Flopsy Fish"/"Piscatory Pete", Ukikis "Grinders", and separates one particular [[Nep-Enut]] from its species just because it's found underground. Before someone inevitably mentions it, I'm not even making a case for how the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English one just because the ''Yoshi's Island'' games themselves were developed in Japan--given the existence of no direct source, such as a manual or the games, to attest the name of this enemy, it's simply a case of 3 different, largely more current sources against 1 source from 1995, all equally official,{{footnote|main|*}} irrespective of their language. | It's just a normal jellyfish with a wacky, but thoroughly obsolete, nickname. Most licensed guidebooks, each for three different releases with decades spacing them out, straight up call them ''[[wiktionary:くらげ|kurage]]'' (Japanese for "jellyfish", the literal animal). It's the Player's Guide for SMW2 that's the odd one out, and let's not forget that it's the same book that calls Cheep Cheeps "Flopsy Fish"/"Piscatory Pete", Ukikis "Grinders", and separates one particular [[Nep-Enut]] from its species just because it's found underground. Before someone inevitably mentions it, I'm not even making a case for how the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English one just because the ''Yoshi's Island'' games themselves were developed in Japan--given the existence of no direct source, such as a manual or the games, to attest the name of this enemy, it's simply a case of 3 different, largely more current sources against 1 source from 1995, all equally official,{{footnote|main|*}} irrespective of their language. | ||
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#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I understand the thought process here, but I personally do not think names are the only thing that should be considered when contemplating lumps or splits. I understand this would be less apparent if it was already lumped with generic jellyfish, but this specific subject has a recurring design, function, and is recognized as an “enemy” in the paratext for the games it appears in (namely page 42 in the Shogakukan guidebook, page 128 in the Nintendo Power guidebook, and page 18 in the Nintendo of Europe guidebook). It does not seem to me to be a generic jellyfish, and I do not think it was intended to be understood as one in the same way Dr. Freezegood is likely not supposed to be perceived as a generic snowman despite its Japanese name. I think it would be more accurate for Preying Mantas to retain their article, separate from generic jellyfish. | #{{User|Nintendo101}} I understand the thought process here, but I personally do not think names are the only thing that should be considered when contemplating lumps or splits. I understand this would be less apparent if it was already lumped with generic jellyfish, but this specific subject has a recurring design, function, and is recognized as an “enemy” in the paratext for the games it appears in (namely page 42 in the Shogakukan guidebook, page 128 in the Nintendo Power guidebook, and page 18 in the Nintendo of Europe guidebook). It does not seem to me to be a generic jellyfish, and I do not think it was intended to be understood as one in the same way Dr. Freezegood is likely not supposed to be perceived as a generic snowman despite its Japanese name. I think it would be more accurate for Preying Mantas to retain their article, separate from generic jellyfish. | ||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. And even if | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. And even if not for the above opposition, i would still have opposed on my own. If anything, i'd be for overturning the Piscatory Pete proposal. | ||
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. It's a reoccurring enemy with a distinct design and name. | #{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. It's a reoccurring enemy with a distinct design and name. | ||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all | #{{User|Tails777}} Per all | ||
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:::::::::::::It's an English wiki. Of course English names take priority because they're English, and I think it should take priority over the Japanese names. In this case, there are no other instances of this enemy being named in any other English guidebooks and I still think it's better to still refer to this as its only name in spite of other enemies just because that's the only source it has. (Also I don't agree with the Solo Toady merge too). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:57, September 15, 2024 (EDT) | :::::::::::::It's an English wiki. Of course English names take priority because they're English, and I think it should take priority over the Japanese names. In this case, there are no other instances of this enemy being named in any other English guidebooks and I still think it's better to still refer to this as its only name in spite of other enemies just because that's the only source it has. (Also I don't agree with the Solo Toady merge too). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:57, September 15, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::::While names would indeed be based around English, I disagree that organization should, because it ''begs'' for inconsistencies when subjects that are separate in Japanese and named the same in English suddenly appear together - like what happened with [[Galoomba]]. Anyway, I'd feel a bit better about the localized name if the entire guidebook weren't written in ''radical 90s dude'' language, because most of the odd names, descriptions, and splits-and-merges stem from that and that alone. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:10, September 15, 2024 (EDT) | ::::::::::::::While names would indeed be based around English, I disagree that organization should, because it ''begs'' for inconsistencies when subjects that are separate in Japanese and named the same in English suddenly appear together - like what happened with [[Galoomba]]. Anyway, I'd feel a bit better about the localized name if the entire guidebook weren't written in ''radical 90s dude'' language, because most of the odd names, descriptions, and splits-and-merges stem from that and that alone. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:10, September 15, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::::The wiki's lingua franca shouldn't determine how concepts are organized, because it can lend a biased view on the developments of the concepts within the Mario series that may not accurately reflect the true creative authority of those concepts. Not to mention it's... ever so slightly discriminatory as well. Assume these guides are general knowledge to their target audience, to the same degree a game is (they're far from it, as I myself pointed out above, but let's do it for the argument). You're saying a Japanese person, who came to acknowledge this thing in the same light as any other generic fictional jellyfish, is inherently denied their perspective here because their native language isn't English? I mean, that perspective could be "inaccurate" for all we know and care, but the ''native language'' of the person and the means they interact with the franchise is simply not a metric to work with here. While I acknowledge this notion isn't explicit in your comment, "English wiki, English goes" practically implies preferential treatment of a particular segment of audience over another (and you even stated the following: "I really think it's more optimal since people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook", the assumption being that these invoked people primarily speak one language and have access to works localized in ''that'' language).<br>'''This is a multinational franchise.''' Its assets are of wide provenance and altogether form a whole, and the reoccurence of a particular idea, as well as the hierarchy of officiality and by extension how close they can be considered to be to the creator's vision, should ''not'' hinge on one language arbitrarily chosen to convey that information. To put it bluntly: this view of " | ::::::::::::::The wiki's lingua franca shouldn't determine how concepts are organized, because it can lend a biased view on the developments of the concepts within the Mario series that may not accurately reflect the true creative authority of those concepts. Not to mention it's... ever so slightly discriminatory as well. Assume these guides are general knowledge to their target audience, to the same degree a game is (they're far from it, as I myself pointed out above, but let's do it for the argument). You're saying a Japanese person, who came to acknowledge this thing in the same light as any other generic fictional jellyfish, is inherently denied their perspective here because their native language isn't English? I mean, that perspective could be "inaccurate" for all we know and care, but the ''native language'' of the person and the means they interact with the franchise is simply not a metric to work with here. While I acknowledge this notion isn't explicit in your comment, "English wiki, English goes" practically implies preferential treatment of a particular segment of audience over another (and you even stated the following: "I really think it's more optimal since people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook", the assumption being that these invoked people primarily speak one language and have access to works localized in ''that'' language).<br>'''This is a multinational franchise.''' Its assets are of wide provenance and altogether form a whole, and the reoccurence of a particular idea, as well as the hierarchy of officiality and by extension how close they can be considered to be to the creator's vision, should ''not'' hinge on one language arbitrarily chosen to convey that information. To put it bluntly: this view of "I'm a REAL AMERICAN PATRIOT and this is MY wiki homegrown on holy American soil and therefore what my conationals speak is the Truth, the whole Truth, and only the Truth" is shortsighted (and that's coming from a guy with glasses [[File:Cranky Kong DKC3 sprite.png]]) {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:58, September 15, 2024 (EDT), edited 17:29, September 15, 2024 (EDT) | ||
The literature I provided citations for above, including the Japanese source for the name Kurage, categorize Preying Mantas as enemies (i.e. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos), not as obstacles (i.e. typically abiotic subjects). That seems to be of deliberate categorical importance, and not something I personally feel can be comfortably lumped with other subjects. | The literature I provided citations for above, including the Japanese source for the name Kurage, categorize Preying Mantas as enemies (i.e. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos), not as obstacles (i.e. typically abiotic subjects). That seems to be of deliberate categorical importance, and not something I personally feel can be comfortably lumped with other subjects. | ||
