Editing Talk:Preying Mantas
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== Merge with [[Jellyfish]] == | == Merge with [[Jellyfish]] == | ||
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It's just a normal jellyfish with a wacky, but thoroughly obsolete, nickname. Most licensed guidebooks, each for three different releases with decades spacing them out, straight up call them ''[[wiktionary:くらげ|kurage]]'' (Japanese for "jellyfish", the literal animal). It's the Player's Guide for SMW2 that's the odd one out, and let's not forget that it's the same book that calls Cheep Cheeps "Flopsy Fish"/"Piscatory Pete", Ukikis "Grinders", and separates one particular [[Nep-Enut]] from its species just because it's found underground. Before someone inevitably mentions it, I'm not even making a case for how the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English one just because the ''Yoshi's Island'' games themselves were developed in Japan--given the existence of no direct source, such as a manual or the games, to attest the name of this enemy, it's simply a case of 3 different, largely more current sources against 1 source from 1995, all equally official,{{footnote|main|*}} irrespective of their language. | It's just a normal jellyfish with a wacky, but thoroughly obsolete, nickname. Most licensed guidebooks, each for three different releases with decades spacing them out, straight up call them ''[[wiktionary:くらげ|kurage]]'' (Japanese for "jellyfish", the literal animal). It's the Player's Guide for SMW2 that's the odd one out, and let's not forget that it's the same book that calls Cheep Cheeps "Flopsy Fish"/"Piscatory Pete", Ukikis "Grinders", and separates one particular [[Nep-Enut]] from its species just because it's found underground. Before someone inevitably mentions it, I'm not even making a case for how the Japanese books are somehow more authoritative than the English one just because the ''Yoshi's Island'' games themselves were developed in Japan--given the existence of no direct source, such as a manual or the games, to attest the name of this enemy, it's simply a case of 3 different, largely more current sources against 1 source from 1995, all equally official,{{footnote|main|*}} irrespective of their language. | ||
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#{{User|Ray Trace}} I can't say this case is the same as Piscatory Pete and Flopsy Fish. For one, this enemy is the only one here that has reappeared in Yoshi's New Island with an unchanged design (Piscatory Petes do not exist in New Island). I also think it's very distinct compared to generic cases of Jellyfish and it plays distinctly too (you can jump on them and they move up and down.) In addition, [[Dr. Freezegood]] is also simply called "Snowman" in Japanese, yet I would also oppose the merge because it was given a unique name to distinguish itself from other snowmen (also with an unchanged design from the first game rather than using something more generic or [[Mr. Blizzard]] or something). I'd say in this case, it's better off split. | #{{User|Ray Trace}} I can't say this case is the same as Piscatory Pete and Flopsy Fish. For one, this enemy is the only one here that has reappeared in Yoshi's New Island with an unchanged design (Piscatory Petes do not exist in New Island). I also think it's very distinct compared to generic cases of Jellyfish and it plays distinctly too (you can jump on them and they move up and down.) In addition, [[Dr. Freezegood]] is also simply called "Snowman" in Japanese, yet I would also oppose the merge because it was given a unique name to distinguish itself from other snowmen (also with an unchanged design from the first game rather than using something more generic or [[Mr. Blizzard]] or something). I'd say in this case, it's better off split. | ||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I understand the thought process here, but I personally do not think names are the only thing that should be considered when contemplating lumps or splits. I understand this would be less apparent if it was already lumped with generic jellyfish, but this specific subject has a recurring design, function, and is recognized as an “enemy” in the paratext for the games it appears in (namely page 42 in the Shogakukan guidebook, page 128 in the Nintendo Power guidebook, and page 18 in the Nintendo of Europe guidebook). It does not seem to me to be a generic jellyfish, and I do not think it was intended to be understood as one in the same way Dr. Freezegood is likely not supposed to be perceived as a generic snowman despite its Japanese name. I think it would be more accurate for Preying Mantas to retain their article, separate from generic jellyfish. | #{{User|Nintendo101}} I understand the thought process here, but I personally do not think names are the only thing that should be considered when contemplating lumps or splits. I understand this would be less apparent if it was already lumped with generic jellyfish, but this specific subject has a recurring design, function, and is recognized as an “enemy” in the paratext for the games it appears in (namely page 42 in the Shogakukan guidebook, page 128 in the Nintendo Power guidebook, and page 18 in the Nintendo of Europe guidebook). It does not seem to me to be a generic jellyfish, and I do not think it was intended to be understood as one in the same way Dr. Freezegood is likely not supposed to be perceived as a generic snowman despite its Japanese name. I think it would be a more accurate for Preying Mantas to retain their article, separate from generic jellyfish. | ||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. And even if | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. And even if not for the above opposition, i would still have opposed on my own. If anything, i'd be for overturning the Piscatory Pete proposal. | ||
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. It's a reoccurring enemy with a distinct design and name. | #{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. It's a reoccurring enemy with a distinct design and name. | ||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all | #{{User|Tails777}} Per all | ||
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#{{User|Shoey}} Per all. | #{{User|Shoey}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all. | #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all. | ||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
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::::::::::I've never "pushed them aside just because they're not English", so don't make accusations that I'm acting "disingenuous". I already know that Japanese guidebooks can be useful but in this case, this isn't a "misidentification" (which is a claim actually based on speculation than word of mouth, only drawing connections because some other enemies also have inconsistent names), it's literally named this in a guidebook provided to the English speaking audience of the game, and this is the only known name we've had for this entity, since there are no other English name guidebooks. This merge hinges entirely on Japanese guidebooks based on a Japanese name while ignoring the localized name, in which how it should be referred to in regards to the English speaking audience is dubious. To me, this is a distinct entity from the generic jellies, the NOA localizers for the SNES Yoshi's Island thought so, and until this enemy reappears in a future game under the name jelly, I think it's much safer to leave the page as it is, and I really think it's more optimal since people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:01, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | ::::::::::I've never "pushed them aside just because they're not English", so don't make accusations that I'm acting "disingenuous". I already know that Japanese guidebooks can be useful but in this case, this isn't a "misidentification" (which is a claim actually based on speculation than word of mouth, only drawing connections because some other enemies also have inconsistent names), it's literally named this in a guidebook provided to the English speaking audience of the game, and this is the only known name we've had for this entity, since there are no other English name guidebooks. This merge hinges entirely on Japanese guidebooks based on a Japanese name while ignoring the localized name, in which how it should be referred to in regards to the English speaking audience is dubious. To me, this is a distinct entity from the generic jellies, the NOA localizers for the SNES Yoshi's Island thought so, and until this enemy reappears in a future game under the name jelly, I think it's much safer to leave the page as it is, and I really think it's more optimal since people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:01, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::They also thought distinctions we don't split pages by, and redirects exist for a reason. Admittedly, this is still a very weird outlier as the ''only'' "enemy"-type thing in the game to have a totally generic real-world animal description for a name. There are other generic-named things, but most are obstacles or based off archetypes ([[Slime Drop|Slime]], for example). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:20, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | :::::::::::They also thought distinctions we don't split pages by, and redirects exist for a reason. Admittedly, this is still a very weird outlier as the ''only'' "enemy"-type thing in the game to have a totally generic real-world animal description for a name. There are other generic-named things, but most are obstacles or based off archetypes ([[Slime Drop|Slime]], for example). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:20, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::::And your argument is that the English guide should take priority over all the other guides simply because it's in English. I'm not "ignoring it", I'm fully cognizant of its existence, but I'm measuring it up against the three other guides, two being more recent. The reality of the matter is that, while official, the American guide has a pattern of taking liberties with enemy names that have long been rendered obsolete; [[Talk:Solo Toady#Comments 3|it has been contended on this wiki before that its reliability is shaky.]] | ::::::::::::And your argument is that the English guide should take priority over all the other guides simply because it's in English. I'm not "ignoring it", I'm fully cognizant of its existence, but I'm measuring it up against the three other guides, two being more recent. The reality of the matter is that, while official, the American guide has a pattern of taking liberties with enemy names that have long been rendered obsolete; [[Talk:Solo Toady#Comments 3|it has been contended on this wiki before that its reliability is shaky.]]<br>" people who are on this site will look up "Preying Mantas" based on that one guidebook"<br>Do you honestly think so? That people who browse this site are normally aware of an old, out-of-print Player's Guide beforehand, and base their search around it? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 03:16, September 15, 2024 (EDT) | ||
The literature I provided citations for above, including the Japanese source for the name Kurage, categorize Preying Mantas as enemies (i.e. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos), not as obstacles (i.e. typically abiotic subjects). That seems to be of deliberate categorical importance, and not something I personally feel can be comfortably lumped with other subjects. | The literature I provided citations for above, including the Japanese source for the name Kurage, categorize Preying Mantas as enemies (i.e. Goombas, Koopas, Shy Guys, Boos), not as obstacles (i.e. typically abiotic subjects). That seems to be of deliberate categorical importance, and not something I personally feel can be comfortably lumped with other subjects. | ||
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:The Dinosaur article covers dinosaurs in general, the T-Rex one covers one particular member of that group. They'd have stayed split even if the Odyssey T-Rex wasn't capturable. Dinohattanites are also a very peculiar human-like reptilian race that are said to evolve from dinosaurs. Here, there's nothing that points to Preying Mantas being analogous to a particular real species of jellyfish; it's just called a jellyfish. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:12, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | :The Dinosaur article covers dinosaurs in general, the T-Rex one covers one particular member of that group. They'd have stayed split even if the Odyssey T-Rex wasn't capturable. Dinohattanites are also a very peculiar human-like reptilian race that are said to evolve from dinosaurs. Here, there's nothing that points to Preying Mantas being analogous to a particular real species of jellyfish; it's just called a jellyfish. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:12, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::I'm sorry, I may not have conveyed the point I was making in bringing that up. The reason why that information was removed was not because they weren't ''Tyrannosaurus rex'', it was because the article reflects T-Rex in the narrowest sense - [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=T-Rex&diff=3088992&oldid=3088985 the enemy from ''Super Mario Odyssey'']. I think having an article dedicated to a recurring subject (such as the Preying Mantas) with the same design, behavior, and paratextual systematics across appearances is a sincere reflection of the material in the games and is inherently clarifying that it is not a generic subject (or at least that is my impression. Other interpretations are valid). I think my perspective would be a bit different if, say, there was a guidebook released for ''Yoshi's New Island'' that explicitly discussed this subject in a generic context and/or did not categorize it as an enemy. To the best of my knowledge, or at least from the digging I have done for this, no such resources exist (not even a Prima Guidebook, unfortunately). It'd be nice if there was some sort of "Yoshi Portal," but in lieu of something like that or some other contemporary clarification, I do not think I would support lumping it with generic jellyfish subjects. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:35, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | ::I'm sorry, I may not have conveyed the point I was making in bringing that up. The reason why that information was removed was not because they weren't ''Tyrannosaurus rex'', it was because the article reflects T-Rex in the narrowest sense - [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=T-Rex&diff=3088992&oldid=3088985 the enemy from ''Super Mario Odyssey'']. I think having an article dedicated to a recurring subject (such as the Preying Mantas) with the same design, behavior, and paratextual systematics across appearances is a sincere reflection of the material in the games and is inherently clarifying that it is not a generic subject (or at least that is my impression. Other interpretations are valid). I think my perspective would be a bit different if, say, there was a guidebook released for ''Yoshi's New Island'' that explicitly discussed this subject in a generic context and/or did not categorize it as an enemy. To the best of my knowledge, or at least from the digging I have done for this, no such resources exist (not even a Prima Guidebook, unfortunately). It'd be nice if there was some sort of "Yoshi Portal," but in lieu of something like that or some other contemporary clarification, I do not think I would support lumping it with generic jellyfish subjects. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:35, September 14, 2024 (EDT) | ||
