Editing Talk:Porcupuffer

==Main Picture==
Hey I fond this real Porcu-Puffer artwork. Would you rather have a sprite for the main picture or artwork for the main picture?

[[File:PorcuPuffer.PNG|110px]] '''OR''' [[File:Porcu-Puffer.PNG|50px]]{{User:YoshiGo99/sig}}

:It would be great if there was not a background. Anyway, I recommend you try putting that up and see how things turn out. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

I actually found a Porcu-Puffer card and cut out the Porcu-puffer image.{{User:YoshiGo99/sig}}
:Hm, looks good on that infobox ;) {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

==Cheep Cheeps?==

Any proof these are actually related to Cheep Cheeps? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:22, 30 March 2015 (EDT)
:They look like them. That's the most proof you will get {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 21:57, 31 March 2015 (EDT)
::So do most ''Mario'' series fish. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 04:28, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

==Decide if Porcupuffers are Cheep Cheeps==
{{Settled TPP}}

{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-12}}

The wiki lists Porcupuffers as being Cheep Cheeps, even though ''no'' foreign names even hint at them being so, no official media (to my knowledge) calls them Cheep Cheeps, and our only proof is that they look similar, even though it's [[Rip Van Fish|obvious it's just]] [[Loch Nestor|the ''Mario'' way]] [[Spray Fish|of depicting fish]].

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Binarystep}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' June 16, 2015, 23:59 GMT

===Porcupuffers aren't Cheep Cheeps===
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per proposal.

===Porcupuffers are Cheep Cheeps===
#{{User|Walkazo}} - The Porcupuffer's design was based on Cheep Cheep and is similar enough to warrant being included in the Cheep Cheep family (along with [[Rip Van Fish]], [[Blurp]] and other standard ''Mario'' fish modelled after Cheep Cheep, for that matter, like how all standard turtle enemies are Koopas). It's what people will expect to find, and what they ''should'' be able to find via {{tem|Cheep Cheeps}} and other lists. Common sense should trump sacrificing navigation ease and interconnectivity for the sake of details most readers and editors really won't know or care about.
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Mario}} Per. Porcupuffer bears even less differences with Cheep Cheep than Bandit has with Shy Guy, so I ''am'' incredibly iffy on splitting this one, but I'm leaning toward "do nothing", ever since this was made.
#{{User|ShyGuy8}} Per All.
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per all.
#{{User|Pyro Guy}} Change of vote, per all.
#{{User|BabyLuigi64}} Per all.
#{{User|Viper26}} Per all.
#{{User|Magikrazy}} Sometimes you just gotta use common sense on these things. Of course, Walkazo already said that and put it better than I would have, so per her.
#{{User|Andymii}} I've been thinking over this, but Baby Luigi's made some good points in the comments. Per those comments.
#{{User|Lumastar}} Per all. If you want to see a species of fish that was actually mistaken for a sub-species of Cheep Cheep please direct your attention to the [[Spike Bass]]. Unlike the Spike Bass, Porcupuffers share a lot in common with other Cheep Cheeps, including their lips and eyes.
#{{User|TheHelper100}} Per all.

===Comments===
It's hard to say, but I don't know if they are or not. I'm going to think about it before I vote. They are similar in some ways.
[[User:ShyGuy8|<span style="font:serif;color:#360">ShyGuy8</span>]]
([[User talk:Jacob Lott|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ShyGuy8|contribs]])
[[File:Birdogif.gif|40px]]
(<span style=''font:serif;color:#360''>Just a Shy Guy who loves Mario...</span>) 14:57, 2 June 2015 (EDT)
:Having similar appearances is not enough to relate the two of them, as explained by Binary. Unless you'd like to start referring to ''all'' of those fish as Cheep Cheeps? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::You've got a point there. I don't want to refer ''all'' fish as Cheep Cheeps, but I guess I will vote that they are'nt. 
[[User:ShyGuy8|<span style="font:serif;color:#360">ShyGuy8</span>]]
([[User talk:Jacob Lott|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ShyGuy8|contribs]])
[[File:Birdogif.gif|40px]]
(<span style=''font:serif;color:#360''>Just a Shy Guy who loves Mario...</span>) 15:06, 2 June 2015 (EDT)

Okay, so the line between "random fish" and Cheep-Cheep-like is a bit blurry, but these bear an extremely close resemblance to Cheep-Cheep. Their eye shape is the same, their body shape is the same, their mouth shape is similar, and their fin shape is similar enough. The only difference is that Porcupuffer is much fatter and has spikes on its back.

As for your examples, BinaryStep, [[Rip Van Fish]] is categorized under Cheep Cheep and it does strongly resemble a Cheep-Cheep. [[Loch Nestor]] has little resemblance to a Cheep-Cheep (its eyes mostly; the rest of its features aren't notable enough, but it ''could'' squeak as a derivative Cheep Cheep species). Finally, [[Spray Fish]] looks nothing like a Cheep-Cheep from drastically different body shape, eye shape, mouth shape, and that minor, but still notable blush mark.

That Bandit proposal has now gotten me concerned if we're going to split ''other'' extremely similar, but different enemies simply because of those differences. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:48, 3 June 2015 (EDT)

@Opposers: The problem is, we have ''literally no proof'' Porcupuffers are Cheep Cheeps other than their appearance. If the only reason we're calling them Cheep Cheeps is that it's what people expect, we might as well, for instance, keep calling Bandits Shy Guys. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:23, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:Also note that while the design is clearly based on Cheep Cheeps, that doesn't really mean much (again, look at the issue with Bandits and Shy Guys). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:24, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Sure there's no concrete proof that they are Cheep-Cheeps. There isn't concrete proof saying otherwise. This is why we make inferences based on available evidence. Besides, from the looks of things, the Bandit proposal won't pass. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 16:06, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::Using the example of Bandits and Shy Guys in support of your proposal when you're ''opposing'' the other proposal? Seems a bit hypocritical. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::::I was trying to make a comment more along the lines of "why do so many people think Bandits aren't Shy Guys but that Porcuffers are Cheep Cheeps despite having no evidence of the latter", not stating my own opinions on the Bandit/Shy Guy issue. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 21:02, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

":Also note that while the design is clearly based on Cheep Cheeps, that doesn't really mean much (again, look at the issue with Bandits and Shy Guys). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:24, 4 June 2015 (EDT)"
:I voted oppose in both your proposals. Also, it does mean much that they're clearly based on Cheep Cheeps. It's a related species on that alone so it deserves to be at least categorized with the Cheep Cheep rather than have its ties severed. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:55, 5 June 2015 (EDT)
::I also voted oppose on both per what [[User:Mario|Mario]] said. It does need to be categorized as a Cheep Cheep because that's what it is related to. The same with [[Bandit]]s and [[Shy Guy]]s. Please keep it categorized of how it is. Thanks,
[[User:ShyGuy8|<span style="font:serif;color:#3CF">ShyGuy8</span>]]
([[User talk:Jacob Lott|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ShyGuy8|contribs]])
[[File:Birdogif.gif|40px]] 22:01, 5 June 2015 (EDT)
:Bottom line is this: are we allowed to write information on this wiki that has strong evidence that can be found with common sense (but is not outright stated), or do we need solid, outright proof for everything? [[User:Andymii|Andymii]] ([[User talk:Andymii|talk]]) 17:08, 6 June 2015 (EDT)
::Ugh I don't like the word "common sense", especially when used to make educated inferences. It's not an aspect of critical thinking for a reason, or else hindsight bias would get in the way rather than looking at things skeptically. But I understand what you're talking about, and yes, we can make valid assumptions if we have strong supporting evidence for it. It's a bit like creating scientific theories. We all know gravity is actually considered a theory, same with plate tectonics, but those have indisputable, really strong evidence to draw links to be universally accepted. What happens here is similar to that, except less technical. If we need solid proof for outright everything, we need to rewrite basically everything on the wiki. That would be counterproductive to our goal. Making educated inferences based on strong supporting evidence is actually the way to go when writing these articles if the lack of solid concrete proof exists, and most of the time there isn't a source outright making those claims. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 21:48, 6 June 2015 (EDT)
:::Rewriting everything on this wiki would be a lot of work!
[[User:ShyGuy8|<span style="font:serif;color:#3CF">ShyGuy8</span>]]
([[User talk:Jacob Lott|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ShyGuy8|contribs]])
[[File:MP9 Shy Guy Artwork.png|40px]] 22:45, 6 June 2015 (EDT)

But the truth is, Binarystep, we don't need solid proof that Porcupuffers are Cheep Cheeps. It's pretty obvious that Cheep Cheeps are one of the main type of fishes in the Mario series. Every other fish in the series is ''related'' to a Cheep Cheep because there is really nothing else you can categorize it to. <s>I'm not trying to be rude, but this is ridiculous, </s>If there is no other main fish in the Mario series, then what should we categorize it to? Itself? No. It needs to be categorized to a Cheep Cheep so it wouldn't get confusing. Same with Bandits and Shy Guys. We can't just categorize it to itself.
[[User:ShyGuy8|<span style="font:serif;color:#3CF">ShyGuy8</span>]]
([[User talk:Jacob Lott|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ShyGuy8|contribs]])
[[File:MP9 Shy Guy Artwork.png|40px]] 00:09, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

== ''Super Mario Galaxy'' - Spiny Cheep Cheep / Balloonfish? ==

While Prima's ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' guide refers to this enemy as "Porcupuffer" (28), ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' instead calls this enemy "''Togepuku''" (128 & 160). This name is identical to Spiny Cheep Cheep. [http://neomariogalaxy.bplaced.net/?page=objectdb Internally,] it's generically referred to by another name ("<tt>Balloonfish</tt>"), but ''Super Mario Pia'' apparently lists "SMG2" as an appearance of Spiny Cheep Cheep. I'm inclined to believe Prima simply mislabeled it; after all, this isn't the first time we've had issues with [[Spiny_Cheep_Cheep#Super_Mario_Land_2:_6_Golden_Coins|Spiny]] [[Spiny Fish#Names_in_other_languages|Cheep]] [[Spiny_Cheep_Cheep#Mario_Pinball_Land|Cheep]] and [[Porcupuffer_(boss)#Names_in_other_languages|Porcupuffer]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:22, 9 December 2017 (EST)
:This is an odd case; much like ''Yoshi's Story'' and ''Super Mario Land 2'', Togepuku in this game looks very little like the respective game's Pukupuku, and the behavior is unique. Also, the fact that it has a balloon-nozzle tail... It looks more like a Porcupuffer than a Spiky Cheep Cheep, due to the non-winglike fins and general fatness, but ''Galaxy'' had plenty of unusual designs...[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:26, 9 December 2017 (EST)
::We could pull a Spiny Fish and consider it Balloonfish, though why ''Super Mario Land 2'' Togepuku never kept its autonomy via similar rationale is beyond me. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:35, 9 December 2017 (EST)
:::I'd rather push Spiny Fish back into Spiny Cheep Cheep, myself... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:40, 9 December 2017 (EST)
::::This is an "all or nothing" case - I still think it looks really inconsistent for one to have its own article but not the other, and now we have another deviant ''Togepuku'' to take into account. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:45, 9 December 2017 (EST)
:::::[[Mechakoopa#Super Mario Galaxy|Let]] [[Cheep Cheep#Super Mario 64|me]] [[Super Mario Sunshine|think]] [[Maw-Ray#Super Mario Odyssey|about]] [[Pokey|that]] [[Hammer Bro#Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|for]] [[Micro Goomba#Super Mario Galaxy|a]] [[King Boo|little]] [[Rocky Wrench|bit]].....I'd say "all." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:50, 9 December 2017 (EST)
::::::As in, "include every single one in the main article," because there's plenty of deviations of things, especially prior to NSMBW standardizing most things (with SMG2 not counting as it borrowed so much from SMG). Look how much [[Gallery:Pokey|our iconic cactus]] changed over the years, for example. Given that ''Pia'' listed this as a Spiny Cheep Cheep but didn't list the SML2 one as one just makes me further think they should all be here, as ''Perfect guide'' said the SML2 ones were them, despite the many things it listed as separate from each other. So unless "Harisenbon" gets a new citation that is official, I'd say yes, list them all here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:49, 11 December 2017 (EST)
:::::::It's odd that ''Pia'' lists "SMG2" but not "SMG" as an appearance, but overall, I agree. We split the ''Yoshi's Story'' Togepuku yet keep other oddballs such as ''Super Mario Land 2'', ''Super Mario Ball'' and ''Yoshi Touch & Go'' merged with Spiny Cheep Cheep; the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' appearance has more in common with the ''Super Mario Land 2'' version but is in a different article entirely. I know ''Super Mario Land 2'' and ''Yoshi's Story'' were case-by-case, but it's just inconsistent how far spread apart the treatment of Togepuku is in the wiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:09, 11 December 2017 (EST)
:::::::::Should probably all be revisited then. On a side note, my last edit here added 777, and yours added 666. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:39, 11 December 2017 (EST)

== Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 ==

It turns out not only the Prima Guide for Galaxy 2 calls Spiny Cheep Cheeps "Porcupuffer", but IGN and the Fandom Mario Wiki also calls them Porcupuffer. Can you please refer to the ones in Galaxy 1 and 2 "Porcupuffer"? Please. {{unsigned|73.144.168.60}}

:IGN and Fandom are not official sources. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 09:36, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

== Mislabled? ==
: I don't think that Prima outright mislabled the Super Mario Galaxy 2 Spiny Cheep Cheep as a Porcupuffer so much as they didn't realize that that Pufferfish was supposed to be a Spiny Cheep Cheep given that 1. it doesn't look like a Spiny Cheep Cheep and 2. the confirmation comes from Japanese-exclusive guidebooks. To me, it's like how Big Cheep Cheeps were called Big Berthas and Boss Basses in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Blurps in Yoshi's Story (and as an aside, I don't think Big Cheep Cheeps were "misnamed" Blurps) and Cheep Chomps were called Boss Basses in the Yoshi's Island DS Strategy guides again because the localizers simply weren't aware of the guidebooks confirming the species. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 11:58, June 27, 2022 (EDT)
::Other websites called them "Porcupuffer" as well, like IGN and the Fandom Mario Wiki. Can you please call the Spiny Cheep Cheeps "Porcupuffer"? Please.{{unsigned|73.144.173.107}}
:::Those are not valid sources. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:40, May 22, 2023 (EDT)