Editing Talk:Polterpiranha

==Name==
For future reference, neither the Player's Guide nor the Prima Games guide ever mention this enemy, either by name or by an offhand remark. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
:The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNhnzGTG5w&t=3m6s North American version] of ''Super Smash Bros. for Wii U'' refers to the "Ghost" variety of Piranha Plant. Sure enough, in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcffRvIIPMc&t=6m49s Japanese version] of ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS'', Yūrei Pakkun is listed instead. While a few types actually differ, this seems to be the same thing. The only thing is that the full names aren't mentioned here like the PAL version (which doesn't include it), so it would be considered "Ghost (Piranha Plant)" rather than Ghost Piranha Plant or Ghost Piranha. Alternatively, I think the article could be titled "Ghost Piranha" with a "part conjecture" tag. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:07, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
::"Ghost Piranha" or "Ghost Piranha Plant" with the part conjecture tag sounds good to me. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:11, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
:::The part conjecture is for articles covering some content that has definitely received an official name and some content that has not received a name but is close enough to the other content that it gets grouped in anyways (see: [[Frog]]). It isn't for names that are themselves conjectural, whether in whole or in part. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 17:17, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
::::What about [[Pump Mario]]? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
:::::Do we know that the trophy is referring to this enemy specifically? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:22, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

:::::[[Template:Part conjecture|The description for the template itself]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Part_conjecture&diff=next&oldid=726750 since 2012]) makes its purpose clear. An article using it incorrectly only means that it's using it incorrectly. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 17:23, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
::::::@Time Turner: So that means "Ghost (Piranha Plant)" should be the article title since that's unfortunately the only thing left go off on. Maybe something should be done about that other article.
::::::@Alex95: The Piranha Plants mentioned in the trophy differ across three regions, with the North American, PAL and Japanese versions only having Naval, Fire and Bone in common. While there is a [[wikipedia:Yūrei|bit]] more to it than that, Ghost is more or less a direct translation of Yūrei, and no other type of Piranha Plant fits the bill. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:45, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
:::::::Sometimes I wonder if the wiki has ever inadvertently created facts. After all, the wiki used the name "Ghost Piranha" for this article without any tags that indicated it was conjectural (beyond a brief period between late 2015 and early 2016) for quite a while. Sm4sh came out in 2014, whereas this page was only moved to its current name in late 2016. It's a moot point now, and any discussions about this would probably be too speculative for the articles, but these kinds of situations crop up from time to time. On topic, I personally think Ghost (Piranha Plant) sounds a bit weird, but without a better name, I won't object to it. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 18:26, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I agree that the wiki may have inadvertently "created" certain things such as Rudy the Clown out of Rudy and I believe may have also contributed to Caped Mario being condensed to Cape Mario among others, but I digress... If there are no objections, I'll move it to Ghost (Piranha Plant). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:33, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
:::::::::Rudy the Clown was a fan-name since Dr Mario 64 was released, don't get to big for your britches. However, the problem is apparent, as seen when Zelda: Arts and Artifacts used the Japanese names for Helmethead and Horsehead (Jermafenser and Mazuri), which Zeldawiki had started to do recently because the most recent guide called them that (while conveniently ignoring the game's own manual). This was one of the reasons I was as adamant as I was about Rocky Wrench being identified solely as a Koopa (because that's what it officially is, and I don't want FAN THEORIES getting mixed into official lore). {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 18:15, 29 August 2017 (CT)

== Name, Again ==
{{talk}}
So, in light of [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this proposal]], should this be moved back to Yūrei Pakkun? [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:09, 29 January 2019 (EST)
:In the Palutena's Guidance I just transcribed, they are still called "Ghosts". [[Special:Contributions/72.200.164.50|72.200.164.50]] 21:17, 29 January 2019 (EST)
::Please take this all [[Talk:Piranha Plant#This is the Ultimate|here]], for now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:25, 29 January 2019 (EST)
Having recently acquired both the Nintendo Power and Prima Games guides, I found the name for it tucked away in the latter, on page 279 regarding World 5-5: The Cave That Never Ends: "''Jump over the Polterpiranhas and flutter to the right to reach solid ground.''" It is not mentioned in the former, and as mentioned above, "Ghost" is seemingly shortened in the Wii U trophy (and, for all we know, could still be referenced from us then). I think we should go with the Prima name over the questionable in-game one. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:01, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:Yeah, I agree with LinkTheLefty this time around. Don't ask why the ''Smash Bros.'' localization team chose to name them "Ghosts", because '''darn''', it's a ''very'' generic name. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 11:31, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
::Yeah, Ghost definitely came from us. It's really Time Turner that should have checked multiple times. I'd agree to rename to Polterpiranha over Ghost, as <s> basically citing the encyclopedia in a nutshell</s> we should not let citogenesis creep unto our wiki. I't be a more logical choise than using Ghost by citing the SSB Ultimate quote. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:06, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::And, unlike the Nipper Dandelion, it wasn't actually a fanname, but came from an official source, which wasn't the full name. What an unique name! --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:07, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::It's from the wiki formerly calling them "Ghost Piranhas," though in ''Wii U'' it mighta just been a direct translation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:22, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I believe ''Wii U'' was genuinely a partial retranslation since the localizer likely referenced Nintendo Power but not Prima Games, but ''Ultimate'' using "Ghosts" is '''very''' telling <small>and I feel like it's all my fault because if I had only left it as Ghost Piranha or Yūrei Pakkun then we'd probably be having a different conversation</small>. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:22, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::::At the very least, "Ghost" isn't ''quite'' a ZD-ism, as they probably saw the name had a source, and didn't check what the source was. After all, they had to check for names for dozens of varieties, and they even corrected the Prickly/Spiny Piranha Plant situation. "Nipper Dandelion" is additionally a logical way to translate the Watage thing, given it works with the previous Woolseyisms regarding Nipper Plants (though not the actual Woolsey-translated one, but that's getting off-topic there). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:31, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::@FanOfYoshi Ghosts are not mentioned in the book, and we do not know if the SSBU names came from us, they could be the intentional names. Even then, there are times in other franchises were fan-names became official such as with Shiny Pokemon. I strongly disagree with moving this page, as we do not even know if this was plagiarism, and even then, what is officially used is official, regardless of its origin. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 14:21, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::I was specifically referring to the Prima. And no, the other Piranha Plants mentioned in the trophy didn't have "Piranha" either. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:24, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::It's a brief mention in the 3rd-party game that it doesn't even directly appear in. I believe it probably did come from us, unintentionally on their part (through not realizing they themselves were the source). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:06, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Like i said, Time Turner should have double checked both guides in the first place. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:12, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::@LinkTheLefty, i don't think it's entirely your fault. We should have renamed it to Polterpiranha if only Time Turner looked more on his guides. <small><small>Also, it's our fault if we conflated the "Beamer" enemies with Sentry Beam in the first place making the spring-like enemy called Sentry Beam in the encyclopedia. Also, a question... Why did you remove the another language template to them, and outright use the internal filename as a "proof" of their romanized Japanese names being their english? Also, shouldn't we move "Jump Guarder back to "Jump Garage" due to internal filenames being low priority. I might be off-topic, but i was trying to bring up another example of something which has the name of something else, within the information coming from us.</small></small> --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 07:57, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::<small><small>I've tried to explain the "romanization" thing before, and it is very off-topic so please don't do that and discuss on the appropriate talk page if you feel there is an error.</small></small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:18, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::If there looks like there is a disagreemnt about renaming this to Polterpiranha, i'd say we should make a proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:45, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I mean, going off [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this proposal]], it should just be moved regardless. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 09:14, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Regardless, i still feel that it should be moved to Polterpiranha. <small><small>Oh, that's the proposal i want to override in the sense of internal filenames having priority over guide names.</small></small> Also, @Doomhiker, there's a difference between speculation and intent. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:38, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::What i am trying to say above, is that there is a difference between speculation and what localizers intended. Regardless, it's pretty clear to me that "Ghost" is citogenesis, and just because of the Nipper Dandelion situation doesn't mean we shouldn't move this to Polterpiranha. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:14, April 13, 2019 (EDT) --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:14, April 13, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::As I mentioned above, [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this proposal]] supports an immediate move to Polterpiranha. {{user|Niiue}} 09:16, April 13, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Despite it being in-game? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:19, April 13, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Arguably yes, and it helps that there doesn't really seem to be any opposition to the move. {{user|Niiue}} 09:32, April 13, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::<!-- Should make another proposal about the source priority exception for a more case-by-case basis --> It would seem that there is one disagreement. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:26, April 13, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::After the Nipper Dandelion proposal, I feel that renaming Ghost, as off as it sounds, would now be an inconsistency. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:51, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::Why though? I supported the rename, and there was a major agreement on that. Here's the redirect : (cur | prev) 14:55, April 22, 2019 LinkTheLefty (talk | contribs) . . (34 bytes) (+34) . . (Redirected page to Ghost (Piranha Plant)) (Tag: New redirect) --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 07:47, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::Because at this point, by allowing one from the same source but not the other, it really would be picking and choosing which in-game names we do and don't prefer. At least it has ''some'' basis to exist; Nipper Dandelion was a complete fabrication, and if we allow that, then there's no reason why we shouldn't allow Ghost as well. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:57, April 26, 2019 (EDT)

Except that Nipper Dandelion was a more concise name, and Ghost is too generic. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:21, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
:Doesn't matter - everyone should be well aware of the origins of Nipper Dandelion by now. This is twice now that Polterpiranha has been called Ghost, and the source priority exception proposal does not factor in-game names. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:42, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
::However, Niiue still agrees with that even though that the source priority <small><small>I'd like to make another counterproposal for certain cases</small></small> doesn't applies to certain in-game names. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:47, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
:::Believe me, I realize that the origin of "Ghost" is also sketchy, but having it both ways would be contradictory. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:50, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
::::Even Niiue agreed on it. Why did you change your mind? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:13, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
:::::The reason I changed my mind was out of internal consistency on the wiki, not my personal feelings on the matter. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:55, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Regardless, it should be moved to Polterpiranha due to it being more consise. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:19, May 3, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::If we do, that calls into greater question the precise implementation of the source priority exception proposal. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:55, May 3, 2019 (EDT)

Oh, so it had an actual English name all along? I’d move it in a heartbeat. It causes much less unnecessary confusion and in case the localization team has to reference the name again, hopefully they’ll realize their mistake. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] ([[User talk:Technickal|talk]]) 10:18, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

I think this is a good idea, as there are too many enemies on this Wiki called "Ghost". It would be much easier to move at least one of them. [[User:Matthew aka Mario|Matthew aka Mario]]

== Proposal ==
{{TPP}}
I heard that there had been a lot of discussion about moving this article to Polterpiranha. I will hold this proposal to settle this.

'''Proposer''': {{User|OhoJeeOnFire}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 21, 2021, 23:59 GMT

====Move to Polterpiranha====
#{{User|OhoJeeOnFire}} I personally think this. Even though we have proof that it was called “ghost,” it should be moved due to a lot of articles named “ghost.”
#{{User|7feetunder}} "Ghost" is a ''mistake'', not a new name, just like how "Daisy was in ''[[Mario Golf (Nintendo 64)|Mario Golf]]''" was a mistake. Let's use the ''actual'' name, not this wack generic half-baked citogenesis BS.
#{{User|Somethingone}} As far as I’m aware, the reason it’s named ghost on this article was because of smash 4 using it as a shorthand for the normal name(as was said on piranha plant’s talk page), so yea, per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} What 7feetunder said, this is a generic mistake based on someone at HAL/Nintendo's localization office not paying enough attention. This isn't like with Nipper Dandelion, where the name is reasonably descriptive and could have been come up with independently.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Polterpiranha is an official name that we have a valid source for, and "Ghost" is a mistake. Per everyone above.

====Keep as is (move to Ghost)====
#{{User|Swallow}} Our policy is to use the most recent name for the subject.

====Comments====
So, as someone who has never played Yoshi's Island DS, is "ghost" used in that game at all, or is it only used in Smash Ultimate? The other name, "Polterpiranha", does at least have a source on the page associated with its only physical appearance. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 20:33, November 7, 2021 (EST)
:I haven't played ''YIDS'' either, but based on the fact that many of the game's exclusive enemies have guide citations for their names (excluding ones mentioned in level names like [[Glide Guy]]), I doubt the game namedrops them anywhere.
:{{User:7feetunder/sig}} 21:00, November 7, 2021 (EST)
::It's Smash-exclusive, I've asked before in regards to the Super Big Unbaba, it doesn't name anything other than bosses. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:23, November 8, 2021 (EST)
@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 == Name, Again ==
+{{talk}}
 So, in light of [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this proposal]], should this be moved back to Yūrei Pakkun? [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:09, 29 January 2019 (EST)
 :In the Palutena's Guidance I just transcribed, they are still called "Ghosts". [[Special:Contributions/72.200.164.50|72.200.164.50]] 21:17, 29 January 2019 (EST)
@@ Line 57: / Line 58: @@
 == Proposal ==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|passed|9-0-4|Move to Polterpiranha}}
 I heard that there had been a lot of discussion about moving this article to Polterpiranha. I will hold this proposal to settle this.
@@ Line 70: / Line 70: @@
 #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} What 7feetunder said, this is a generic mistake based on someone at HAL/Nintendo's localization office not paying enough attention. This isn't like with Nipper Dandelion, where the name is reasonably descriptive and could have been come up with independently.
 #{{User|Scrooge200}} Polterpiranha is an official name that we have a valid source for, and "Ghost" is a mistake. Per everyone above.
-#{{User|Swallow}} I didn't understand how the name was used at first, but now that I do I'm supporting.
-#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} It's nothing like the [[Nipper Dandelion]] case, where that's the only English name we have.
-#{{User|WildWario}} Since Ghost was a mistake, per proposal.
-#{{User|Niiue}} Per all. The "Ghost" name was an obvious mistake, much like the SMW2 guide that listed Boo Balloons twice.
 ====Keep as is (move to Ghost)====
+#{{User|Swallow}} Our policy is to use the most recent name for the subject.
-====Move to Ghost Piranha====
-#{{User|Hewer}} Per LinkTheLefty in the comments. This is probably what we would've used if that trophy description hadn't abbreviated the name.
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per myself in the comments below, and for everyone above repeating that Ghost was a "mistake," let me clear the air a bit: Ghost was not a mistake so much as a '''technicality''', albeit one made without the foresight of post-''Encyclopedia'' wiki; if we're being real here for a moment, Ghost Piranha (Plant) is most probably what the North American ''Super Smash Bros. for Wii U'' trophy writer was going for to begin with, as evident by the British English equivalent not having the space to use all the full names.
-#{{User|Niiue}} Per LTL.
-#{{User|Somethingone}} Per LinkTheLefty
 ====Comments====
@@ Line 88: / Line 79: @@
 :{{User:7feetunder/sig}} 21:00, November 7, 2021 (EST)
 ::It's Smash-exclusive, I've asked before in regards to the Super Big Unbaba, it doesn't name anything other than bosses. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:23, November 8, 2021 (EST)
-:I'm as surprised as anyone that Viridi unironically said "Ghosts" <small>(whoops)</small> but since this is a slightly unorthodox situation, I'm going to propose a slightly unorthodox solution - what if we used the Dutch version, "Ghost Piranha"? It's already perfectly in English, and most other Piranha Plant variation names are identical between English and Dutch (with exceptions being in regards to size, color, patch, and paper). For one thing, we already give similar treatment to Fiery Walking Piranha, whose name was modernized to Fire Nipper Plant via other language subtitles (and it happened to be used by the wiki at around the same time as Ghost Piranha, but most of us are in agreement that this could've easily been updated independently). The name Propeller Piranha was never technically used for another game either, yet it's understood to be the most recent in-game name as well. What most likely happened in the first place is that it was retranslated to be closer to its Japanese name, ''Yūrei Pakkun'', because Polterpiranha only showed up in (and potentially made up by) the Prima Games guide, hence why there's only that reference - had it been a Nintendo Power name, this issue may not've happened. Granted, that brings this article full circle, but again, look at Fire Nipper Plant. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:11, November 8, 2021 (EST)
-:Ok, I’ll add that. {{User:OhoJeeOnFire/sig}}