Editing Talk:Poltergust

== Poltergust, Poltergust, Poltergust ==

I have to say, I find the splitting of the different games' Poltergusts a bit silly. I mean, I get why it's the case, and I don't really have any good arguments otherwise. Still, it's splitting the same (fairly important!) recurring element of the series across different pages because of what amounts to a cute naming quirk. A cute naming quirk that only exists in the first place because the original English name "Poltergust 3000" happens to imply that other versions would have different names not ending in "3000". I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I'd just like to read someone else's thoughts on this. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:19, January 4, 2025 (EST)
:With the exception of Super Poltergust 3001, which is shown existing at the same time as the 3000 (and has a different JP name, unlike ''every other one''), I agree. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:31, January 4, 2025 (EST)
::The only one I personally think is fine being split is the MKDS kart. It's not used in the same way as any of the others. I guess the Super Poltergust 3001 is also fine, Doc's comment on it existing at the same time as the OG model is a point in its favor, but the Poltergusts used in the LM series overall, I feel they could be their own article. I am a bit torn on the fact that they have different functions. Less so for the Dark Moon iteration, all it's functions basically return in the G-00 model, but the 3000 has the elemental functions, the G-00 has the hyper suction thing, so I also agree that it's hard to really say they can be merged. {{User:Tails777/sig}}20:34, January 4, 2025 (EST)
:::To be honest, the different functions aren't that big a deal. The games already establish that it's possible to upgrade the Poltergust by physically adding different bits and bobs, like the strobulb, the dark light device, even Gooigi. Anyways, I decided to look into the English and Japanese text in LM2 to see how the thing is introduced, and as usual, it's a mess. I may as well copy that here, although beware of typos. The English version says "Ah, you've found it! Good work, Luigi. That there is the new-and-improved Poltergust 5000!", while the Japanese version says 『ル・・ジくん・・・ルイージくん / わしじゃオヤ・マーじゃ / フェッ フェッ フェッ！ / 無事に見つけられたようじゃのう / さすがは ルイージくん！ / そうじゃ / それがわしの発明した掃除機！ / その名も / 「オバキューム」じゃ！！』, which seems to mean "Lu..gi... Luigi, it's me, E. Gadd. Heh heh heh! I see you found it safely. As expected of Luigi! That's right. That's the vacuum cleaner I invented. It's called the 'Poltergust'!!". Unhelpful. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:32, January 5, 2025 (EST)
::::I'd support a merge except for the Super Poltergust 3001. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 11:44, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::I'd be more in support of converting this disambiguation list into a more detailed catchall Poltergust article like we do for Mario Circuit while leaving the individual ones have their own article, because these designs do have extensive history backing them and I think it would be a bit messy to have all-in-one article. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:09, January 5, 2025 (EST)
::::::I'm confused, what do you mean by "messy"? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:10, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::::I feel the most messy thing about merging all the Poltergusts is the potential idea that this article on a vacuum cleaner is going to have a handful of sections dedicated to the statistics of a kart (unless that's by default being left out of this conversation). I'm actually on board with Ray Trace's idea of converting this page to a catchall article for every Poltergust. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::::::::The way I see it, the kart(s) would be left out, yeah. Think [[Koopa Clown]]. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:48, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::The original ''was'' able to become a ride-on vehicle for the PAL Hidden Mansion Boolossus fight, though. And [[Wario Car|some]] [[Wario Bike|vehicles]] do have their pages cover both kart and non-kart appearances. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:44, January 5, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::I am on the fence about merging the Luigi's Mansion Poltergusts but I am very much opposed to merging the karts and Super as well. A page about a car detailing its appearances as a car and as a kart is not the same thing as a a page about a ghost-catching device and a series of karts, even if the former has an edge-case that could be somewhat qualified as a vehicle. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 16:53, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::Well either way it feels weird to include 3000 and 5000 but not 4000. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, January 5, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::Well, there's a big difference between Luigi riding on the back of a vacuum cleaner and him driving a vacuum-cleaner-shaped kart. Besides, it's not like karts can't be named after the subjects they're based on, [[Biddybuggy|ahem]]. And in any case, the kart-merging discussion should probably kept on [[Talk:Koopa Clown]], I'd say, since that seems like a better first candidate. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:59, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::::I was also gonna say that comparing the Poltergust to the Wario Car and Bike is a bit of a stretch since no matter which appearance we're talking about, the Wario Car is still a car and the Wario Bike is still a bike. This is a vacuum cleaner and a kart modeled after a vacuum cleaner and regardless of if Luigi was able to ride a vacuum cleaner like a car once, that's still a stretch comparison. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

I have made a mockup of a merge [[User:Blinker/Sandbox#Poltergust|here]]. Obviously the actual content of each section would need a lot of rewriting, but yeah. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:04, January 6, 2025 (EST)
:Seems pretty solid. {{User:Tails777/sig}}15:39, January 6, 2025 (EST)

== Merge Poltergust 3000, Poltergust 5000 and Poltergust G-00 ==

{{TPP}}
Following the discussion above, this proposal aims to merge [[Poltergust 3000]], [[Poltergust 5000]] and [[Poltergust G-00]] into a single {{Fake link|Poltergust}} page. 

The Poltergust is a recurring element of the Luigi's Mansion series, but its appearances are needlessly spread over multiple pages, due to a glorified naming quirk. Although all three versions of the Poltergust share the same Japanese name, this isn't the case in English. Why is that? Well, in the original Luigi's Mansion, it was given an English name of Poltergust 3000 (with other languages using similarly numbered names). Because of this, as new games feature modified versions of the Poltergust, it only made sense to alter the number at the end. I think it's fair to assume that this pattern will continue, which would result in yet more "Poltergust suffix" pages with sections with information for a single Luigi's Mansion game and a few spin-offs, maybe a Super Smash Bros game. Let's avoid that, shall we?

As mentioned in the discussion above, the [[Super Poltergust 3001]] will be left out of this merge, as will the karts. They will still be mentioned on the page, however, similarly to [[Koopa Clown]].

A very rough mockup of what this merge would look like can be found [[User:Blinker/Sandbox#Poltergust|here]].

EDIT: I have added an option for keeping the current articles and having them coexist with a catch-all Poltergust article, as proposed by Ray Trace. Care must be taken to avoid violating "once and only once", but that sounds feasible.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Blinker}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Support (complete merge)===
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal and the conservation above.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal and the discussion above.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Remembering all the names is annoying. Especially when you forget the first one is 3000 rather than 2000, so you end up at the kart trying to go to the ''Dark Moon'' one.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us. Per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} up until very recently i didn't know they shared a japanese name. even if they didn't, they're still closer to iterations on the same object, rather than completely separate items. per all! (edit: secondary choice)

===Support (separate articles alongside catch-all Poltergust article)===
#{{User|Blinker}} Second option. Still beats the current organization.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} This has been my choice since the start.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Ray Trace.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I do not support completely merging the articles, but I think it would be find to have a catch-all article too.
#{{User|Arend}} Per Ray Trace.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; while we think a merge is fine in this case, we're fine with there being a more general article as well.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Ray Trace
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
#{{User|Shadow2}} My opinion is still for "Oppose" but I'd rather move my vote here so that the vote isn't split enough to ruin the majority. 
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} primary choice! after mulling it over this works the best
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Seems like the most reasonable option to me

===Oppose===
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} No.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Ray Trace.
#{{User|Mario}} I don't think the "their names are alike" is a valid reason to try to split. I view those numbers in the end like hardware iterations (with their own branches), similar to RTX series or iPhone series. It's why Poltergust 3000 in Luigi's Mansion 1 jumps to Poltergust 4000 in Mario Kart DS (I use 4 wheels = 4000 as a memory helping device) and then it jumps to Poltergust 5000 in Dark Moon. So things like RTX 30 series, RTX 40 series, RTX 50 series get their own pages. It makes sense if iterations of Poltergust get the similar treatment. Not to mention, these all look different from each other and have spinoffs iterate on the designs, which a merge is just gonna blur all together and create kind of a mess of a page that doesn't really have a clean continuity like the current setup.
#{{User|PopitTart}} It seems silly to merge these explicitly distinguished devices which each have a different appearance, different capabilities, and different names. (Important to note: Luigi's Mansion 3 features the distinct version numbers in E-Gadd's schematics, regardless of language.) I agree with other opposers that creating a Poltergust umbrella article while keeping the individual articles would be favorable.
#{{User|Wonder Time!}} Per all, especially Ray Trace.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
<s>#{{User|Ray Trace}} I still prefer letting each design have their own article while the general catch-all Poltergust article briefly summarizes their appearances ala [[Mario Circuit]]<br>#{{User|Arend}} Per Ray Trace and Shadow2.<br>#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.<br>#{{User|Tails777}} I know I pretty much sounded like I'd support a merge and to a degree, I kinda still do. But I also kinda like Ray Trace's idea a bit more and Arend brings up a decent point too.
<br>#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
<br>#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
<br>#{{User|Shadow2}} No, they each have different functions and are therefore different, unique devices.</s>

===Comments===
Hmmm, let me think... no. They may have the same name in Japanese, but it's pretty clear that even then, they're completely different as they have separate functions and if I remember correctly were stated to be different by E. Gadd as well. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:05, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:Did you read the discussion in the header above the proposal? It seems that they are not clearly stated to be different in Japanese. I don't really see what is "clearly different" about them. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:43, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::Their differing functions? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 05:45, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::Not really. Consider that the element medals, the Strobulb, the Dark-Light Device, Gooigi and the Super Suction are all already added to the Poltergust over the course of the games. Then tell me, what are the different functions of the Poltergusts 3000 and 5000? If you say that the latter has the Strobulb and the former doesn't, that's incorrect. The Poltergust 5000 starts out without the Strobulb, and the Poltergust 3000 does have the Strobulb in the 3DS port of Luigi's Mansion. But that's really beside the point, because regardless of whether or not they are physically different objects, they're still the same concept. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:31, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::The Dark-Light Device isn't on the 3000, the Power Surge isn't on the 3000. It doesn't matter if they're the same "concept", they're different devices with different capabilities. Just saying they're the "same concept" doesn't really mean anything. Lots of things with multiple pages on this wiki are the "same concept", but they have different pages because they're '''different'''. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 09:58, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::They're also not on their respective games' Poltergusts until they're physically added in the middle of the game. And when I say "same concept", I'm not just saying "oh, they're similar". I'm saying it's a recurring element. It's normal for recurring elements like this to change over time. If characters can have different abilities between games, why can't vacuum cleaners, you know? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:56, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::::Karts are a "Recurring element" in the Mario Kart series, so why not consolidate them all into a "Kart" page? Barrels are a recurring element in the DK games, let's just consolidate them into a "Barrel" page. <!--It's sarcasm, by the way-->[[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:43, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::::Well, that's just a silly comparison. I mean, putting aside that there IS a [[kart]] page that covers all karts, you'll notice that the only specific Karts that get their own pages are from games where the player can choose between multiple different karts. That's different from how each Luigi's Mansion features a slightly different iteration of the Poltergust. And I won't even touch the barrel comparison, because, what. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:22, January 9, 2025 (EST)

I was going to oppose, mainly on the basis that these are canonically different models and a merge makes it harder to know which one's appearing in a game since the Poltergust is a fairly recurring element, but I got an idea while I was writing my vote. Could the merged article have a list of appearances table that also says which of the three models shows up in that game? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:41, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:I don't see why not. That said, I'm also not sure why that's particularly necessary? Aside from the convenience, I suppose. The different names would still be used in each section, so it should be relatively simple to search in the article for instances of each name. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:51, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::I just think it'd be nice to preserve the at-a-glance ease of seeing all of a specific design's appearances in the TOC in some way without making readers dig through the whole history section to figure out which design is showing up. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::Then sure. It's not like it will matter at this point, but that sounds good to me. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:41, January 9, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Ray Trace}} Could you explain why you'd prefer that? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:52, January 8, 2025 (EST)

To the opposition: how is giving them different abilities based around external items Luigi collects and adds to it (the elemental abilities through the medallions and elemental ghosts, the dark light device screwed onto his flashlight, Gooigi through the goo canister) differ from how Tanooki Mario required a suit and allowed him to fly and become a statue in SMB3, but required a leaf and let him do neither of those things in SM3DW? Or how FLUDD lacks its alternate nozzles in ''Smash Bros.''? Or Yoshi's occasional lack of flutter jump, swim, or ground-pound abilities? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:10, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:I mean, you're kind of ignoring the obvious point here that it's redesigned and at least renamed by localization every time. Feels more intentional and not just something that can be handwaved as the game designers changing things around to suit the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::Of course it's intentional. The original Luigi's Mansion's translators chose the (delightful) name of "Poltergust 3000", and with each game either tweaking the thing's design or having E. Gadd introduce it as "hey, this is my latest insert-name-here", changing the "3000" to something else was a no-brainer. That's what I meant by "cute naming quirk". That's pretty much all it is. Hell, the Poltergusts in the first two games look extremely similar. The only big differences are the presence of a trigger (to explain how Luigi controls the thing) and a small panel in place of the handle (to allow Luigi to physically insert the Strobulb). And again, if you look at the Poltergusts at the start of either of the first two games, they have the exact same abilities. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:50, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::They're each new and improved iterations of a 'line' of devices. Toyota continually comes out with new and improved models of their vehicles, but they're not all the same vehicle. The [[Nintendo DSi]] is just an improved iteration of the DS line, but it's still a different and wholly unique device that has its own page. They're not the same device, and we shouldn't be treating them as such. This is just how mechanical devices and inventions work. They get improved and upgraded and eventually become a wholly new iteration. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:52, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::The Toyota example isn't a good one, considering all variants of the Toyota Sienna are in one page in Wikipedia. A better example is the iPhone variants. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:20, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::I personally use the graphics cards as an example since they also use the thousands to denominate different iterations, see [[wikipedia:GeForce]]. The Poltergust isn't quite elaborate but it's the same kind of approach I'd do with the Poltergusts. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:42, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::::I see this more akin to how things like [[hammer]]s are sometimes given throwaway "model" names, like the "HAMMAWHACK" from TTYD. We don't split that sort of thing - and I don't think that example is entirely an invention of the localization, unlike "Poltergust 3000." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:16, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::::It's not really a localization quirk when Luigi's Mansion 3 has a poster that displays all models, all named. Even if it was, they could have easily dropped the moniker going to the next games and they just didn't, they've embraced it by the time the third game came out. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 01:55, January 9, 2025 (EST)
::::::::Where's this poster? It would be helpful if we could grab a screenshot of it for reference. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 07:03, January 9, 2025 (EST)
::::::::I mean, Luigi's Mansion 3 wasn't developed in Japan, so you're right, it isn't a '''localization''' quirk. Yes, each game introduces a new design for the Poltergust, which contextualizes the game's unique mechanics. They're still iterations of the same ''thing''. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:22, January 9, 2025 (EST)
::::::::Luigi's Mansion 1 was developed in Japan, which is why I ''explicitly'' referred to the "version" of it in that game. That you assumed I also meant the LM3 one just shows how pointless this split is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:09, January 9, 2025 (EST)
[[File:LM3 Poltergusts.png|thumb|300px]]
:::::::::Here is the image on the right. I don't like categorizing things as "localization quirk", these names aren't named in a vacuum without any oversight, they're brought back and forth between development teams, plus we don't know if Luigi's Mansion 3 was written with an English script or Japanese script first (possibly both at the same time with back and forth between the two teams) even though the game is developed by an American studio because ultimately the rights holder is still a Japanese publisher with all of upper management being there. Even regardless, most textures for posters aren't even in Japanese anyway, all the sponsors in the Mario Kart series [[Coco Burger|are]] [[Bullet Oil|written]] [[Fire Flower Oil|in]] [[Green Fuel|English]]. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:54, January 9, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::Again though, that is all for 3. The original "Obacuum" was from a JP-developed game, which is my point. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:16, January 9, 2025 (EST)

:Aside from what Waluigi Time stated (which I personally think is important here as well), I do think it's disingenuous to compare characters (which are supposed to be living people) to machines, so comparing Tanooki Mario and Yoshi (based entirely on gameplay changes alone) to the Poltergust line (in which there's at the very least an ''in-game justification'' why each model is different/upgraded) is just weird to me. As for F.L.U.D.D. in Smash Bros, its limits ''also'' stem from gameplay changes instead of lore changes (and heck, even if extra nozzles are implemented to make F.L.U.D.D. more lore-accurate, Mario would only have access to the default nozzle and the Hover Nozzle anyway, as the latter can only be swapped out with either of the remaining nozzles through [[Nozzle box|external means]]).<br>By this logic, might as well re-merge [[Ice Mario (Super Mario Galaxy)|Ice Mario]] with [[Ice Mario]] based on the fact that the former can use the latter's ability in ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'', and the fact that they share all their international names across the board. Because if the Poltergust's different appearances, names and upgrades don't matter if the Japanese names are all the game, then Ice Mario's completely different appearance and ability in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' wouldn't matter, either. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:15, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::I ''do'' think Ice Mario needs re-examined and have floated that idea a few times before, so that comparison bothers me not at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:19, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::There's also Tanooki Mario and Kitsune Luigi, who are merged. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:51, January 9, 2025 (EST)

I may be missing something, but I'm a bit annoyed that, despite all the opposition to this proposal, I don't think I have seen anyone argue against the merge itself. All I see is an alternative being given without any explanation as to why it is preferrable, and much arguing that the different iterations of the Poltergust do indeed have differences and are indeed iterations. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:15, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:You should have included an extra option. I've already explained why I prefer a catch-all Poltergust page and then individual pages: I feel like it's the best compromise between leaving the pages as is AND having a general article that gives an overview of all of its variants at once: specific variants of Poltergusts have their own history, design (I greatly prefer to see which games the original Poltergust design appears in -Poltergust 3000- for example in which it having its own page would include all the information, it's not like at its current state, information is scant), and functionality that sets them apart from the other designs. I've already compared it to [[Mario Circuit]] and I think, in most ways, similar to how Mario Circuit 1, 2, 3, etc are all split from each other where more specific information about them would be contained. It doesn't help that the Poltergust 4000 and the Super Poltergust 3001 are the odd ones left out if we split as proposed, while my solution would also serve to address that variant. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::The race tracks don't really have anything in common other than the names and being paved. These are all functionally the same thing with game-exclusive power-ups added. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:12, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::That runs to my point: that's why I think a better idea is a Poltergust overview article but the individual models have their own because they're distinct enough to be treated as separate entities. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 02:00, January 9, 2025 (EST)
::::Wouldn't such an article go against into "once and only once"? Every single appearance would be covered on two different pages, unlike [[Koopa Shell]], for example. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:34, January 9, 2025 (EST)
:::::Not necessarily because the Poltergust article would just be a brief summary than an in-depth look at each iteration, similar to practically members of species or organizations such as [[Koopalings]] or [[Axem Rangers]]. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:59, January 9, 2025 (EST)