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| == Merge Poltergust 3000, Poltergust 5000 and Poltergust G-00 == | | == Merge Poltergust 3000, Poltergust 5000 and Poltergust G-00 == |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|6-16-3|Keep articles split and create a catch-all Poltergust article}} | | |
| | {{TPP}} |
| Following the discussion above, this proposal aims to merge [[Poltergust 3000]], [[Poltergust 5000]] and [[Poltergust G-00]] into a single {{Fake link|Poltergust}} page. | | Following the discussion above, this proposal aims to merge [[Poltergust 3000]], [[Poltergust 5000]] and [[Poltergust G-00]] into a single {{Fake link|Poltergust}} page. |
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| A very rough mockup of what this merge would look like can be found [[User:Blinker/Sandbox#Poltergust|here]]. | | A very rough mockup of what this merge would look like can be found [[User:Blinker/Sandbox#Poltergust|here]]. |
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| EDIT: I have added an option for keeping the current articles and having them coexist with a catch-all Poltergust article, as proposed by Ray Trace. Care must be taken to avoid violating "once and only once", but that sounds feasible.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Blinker}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Blinker}}<br> |
| '''Deadline''': January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline''': January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT |
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| ===Support (complete merge)=== | | ===Support=== |
| #{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. | | #{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. |
| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal and the conservation above. | | #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal and the conservation above. |
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Remembering all the names is annoying. Especially when you forget the first one is 3000 rather than 2000, so you end up at the kart trying to go to the ''Dark Moon'' one. | | #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Remembering all the names is annoying. Especially when you forget the first one is 3000 rather than 2000, so you end up at the kart trying to go to the ''Dark Moon'' one. |
| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us. Per proposal. | | #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us. Per proposal. |
| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} up until very recently i didn't know they shared a japanese name. even if they didn't, they're still closer to iterations on the same object, rather than completely separate items. per all! (edit: secondary choice) | | #{{User|EvieMaybe}} up until very recently i didn't know they shared a japanese name. even if they didn't, they're still closer to iterations on the same object, rather than completely separate items. per all! |
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| ===Support (separate articles alongside catch-all Poltergust article)===
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Second option. Still beats the current organization.
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| #{{User|Ray Trace}} This has been my choice since the start.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Ray Trace.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I do not support completely merging the articles, but I think it would be fine to have a catch-all article too.
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| #{{User|Arend}} Per Ray Trace.
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| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; while we think a merge is fine in this case, we're fine with there being a more general article as well.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per Ray Trace
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| #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
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| #{{User|Shadow2}} My opinion is still for "Oppose" but I'd rather move my vote here so that the vote isn't split enough to ruin the majority.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} primary choice! after mulling it over this works the best
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| #{{User|Jdtendo}} Seems like the most reasonable option to me
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| #{{User|Mario}} I don't think the "their names are alike" is a valid reason to try to split. I view those numbers in the end like hardware iterations (with their own branches), similar to RTX series or iPhone series. It's why Poltergust 3000 in Luigi's Mansion 1 jumps to Poltergust 4000 in Mario Kart DS (I use 4 wheels = 4000 as a memory helping device) and then it jumps to Poltergust 5000 in Dark Moon. So things like RTX 30 series, RTX 40 series, RTX 50 series get their own pages. It makes sense if iterations of Poltergust get the similar treatment. Not to mention, these all look different from each other and have spinoffs iterate on the designs, which a merge is just gonna blur all together and create kind of a mess of a page that doesn't really have a clean continuity like the current setup. Just make an overarching article and keep these split articles.
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| #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Good choice!
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| #{{User|Technetium}} Per Mario.
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| ===Oppose=== | | ===Oppose=== |
| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} No. | | #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} No. |
| #{{User|PopitTart}} It seems silly to merge these explicitly distinguished devices which each have a different appearance, different capabilities, and different names. (Important to note: Luigi's Mansion 3 features the distinct version numbers in E-Gadd's schematics, regardless of language.) I agree with other opposers that creating a Poltergust umbrella article while keeping the individual articles would be favorable.
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| #{{User|Wonder Time!}} Per all, especially Ray Trace.
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| <s>#{{User|Ray Trace}} I still prefer letting each design have their own article while the general catch-all Poltergust article briefly summarizes their appearances ala [[Mario Circuit]]<br>#{{User|Arend}} Per Ray Trace and Shadow2.<br>#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.<br>#{{User|Tails777}} I know I pretty much sounded like I'd support a merge and to a degree, I kinda still do. But I also kinda like Ray Trace's idea a bit more and Arend brings up a decent point too.
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| <br>#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
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| <br>#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
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| <br>#{{User|Shadow2}} No, they each have different functions and are therefore different, unique devices.
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| <br>#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
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| <br>#{{User|Technetium}} Per Ray Trace.</s>
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| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
| Hmmm, let me think... no. They may have the same name in Japanese, but it's pretty clear that even then, they're completely different as they have separate functions and if I remember correctly were stated to be different by E. Gadd as well. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:05, January 7, 2025 (EST) | | Hmmm, let me think... no. They may have the same name in Japanese, but it's pretty clear that even then, they're completely different as they have separate functions and if I remember correctly were stated to be different by E. Gadd as well. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:05, January 7, 2025 (EST) |
| :Did you read the discussion in the header above the proposal? It seems that they are not clearly stated to be different in Japanese. I don't really see what is "clearly different" about them. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:43, January 7, 2025 (EST) | | :Did you read the discussion in the header above the proposal? It seems that they are not clearly stated to be different in Japanese. I don't really see what is "clearly different" about them. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:43, January 7, 2025 (EST) |
| ::Their differing functions? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 05:45, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::Not really. Consider that the element medals, the Strobulb, the Dark-Light Device, Gooigi and the Super Suction are all already added to the Poltergust over the course of the games. Then tell me, what are the different functions of the Poltergusts 3000 and 5000? If you say that the latter has the Strobulb and the former doesn't, that's incorrect. The Poltergust 5000 starts out without the Strobulb, and the Poltergust 3000 does have the Strobulb in the 3DS port of Luigi's Mansion. But that's really beside the point, because regardless of whether or not they are physically different objects, they're still the same concept. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:31, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::The Dark-Light Device isn't on the 3000, the Power Surge isn't on the 3000. It doesn't matter if they're the same "concept", they're different devices with different capabilities. Just saying they're the "same concept" doesn't really mean anything. Lots of things with multiple pages on this wiki are the "same concept", but they have different pages because they're '''different'''. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 09:58, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::They're also not on their respective games' Poltergusts until they're physically added in the middle of the game. And when I say "same concept", I'm not just saying "oh, they're similar". I'm saying it's a recurring element. It's normal for recurring elements like this to change over time. If characters can have different abilities between games, why can't vacuum cleaners, you know? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:56, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::Karts are a "Recurring element" in the Mario Kart series, so why not consolidate them all into a "Kart" page? Barrels are a recurring element in the DK games, let's just consolidate them into a "Barrel" page. <!--It's sarcasm, by the way-->[[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:43, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::::Well, that's just a silly comparison. I mean, putting aside that there IS a [[kart]] page that covers all karts, you'll notice that the only specific Karts that get their own pages are from games where the player can choose between multiple different karts. That's different from how each Luigi's Mansion features a slightly different iteration of the Poltergust. And I won't even touch the barrel comparison, because, what. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:22, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| I was going to oppose, mainly on the basis that these are canonically different models and a merge makes it harder to know which one's appearing in a game since the Poltergust is a fairly recurring element, but I got an idea while I was writing my vote. Could the merged article have a list of appearances table that also says which of the three models shows up in that game? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:41, January 7, 2025 (EST) | | I was going to oppose, mainly on the basis that these are canonically different models and a merge makes it harder to know which one's appearing in a game since the Poltergust is a fairly recurring element, but I got an idea while I was writing my vote. Could the merged article have a list of appearances table that also says which of the three models shows up in that game? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:41, January 7, 2025 (EST) |
| :I don't see why not. That said, I'm also not sure why that's particularly necessary? Aside from the convenience, I suppose. The different names would still be used in each section, so it should be relatively simple to search in the article for instances of each name. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:51, January 7, 2025 (EST) | | :I don't see why not. That said, I'm also not sure why that's particularly necessary? Aside from the convenience, I suppose. The different names would still be used in each section, so it should be relatively simple to search in the article for instances of each name. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:51, January 7, 2025 (EST) |
| ::I just think it'd be nice to preserve the at-a-glance ease of seeing all of a specific design's appearances in the TOC in some way without making readers dig through the whole history section to figure out which design is showing up. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::Then sure. It's not like it will matter at this point, but that sounds good to me. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:41, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| {{@|Ray Trace}} Could you explain why you'd prefer that? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:52, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| To the opposition: how is giving them different abilities based around external items Luigi collects and adds to it (the elemental abilities through the medallions and elemental ghosts, the dark light device screwed onto his flashlight, Gooigi through the goo canister) differ from how Tanooki Mario required a suit and allowed him to fly and become a statue in SMB3, but required a leaf and let him do neither of those things in SM3DW? Or how FLUDD lacks its alternate nozzles in ''Smash Bros.''? Or Yoshi's occasional lack of flutter jump, swim, or ground-pound abilities? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:10, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :I mean, you're kind of ignoring the obvious point here that it's redesigned and at least renamed by localization every time. Feels more intentional and not just something that can be handwaved as the game designers changing things around to suit the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::Of course it's intentional. The original Luigi's Mansion's translators chose the (delightful) name of "Poltergust 3000", and with each game either tweaking the thing's design or having E. Gadd introduce it as "hey, this is my latest insert-name-here", changing the "3000" to something else was a no-brainer. That's what I meant by "cute naming quirk". That's pretty much all it is. Hell, the Poltergusts in the first two games look extremely similar. The only big differences are the presence of a trigger (to explain how Luigi controls the thing) and a small panel in place of the handle (to allow Luigi to physically insert the Strobulb). And again, if you look at the Poltergusts at the start of either of the first two games, they have the exact same abilities. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:50, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::They're each new and improved iterations of a 'line' of devices. Toyota continually comes out with new and improved models of their vehicles, but they're not all the same vehicle. The [[Nintendo DSi]] is just an improved iteration of the DS line, but it's still a different and wholly unique device that has its own page. They're not the same device, and we shouldn't be treating them as such. This is just how mechanical devices and inventions work. They get improved and upgraded and eventually become a wholly new iteration. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:52, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::The Toyota example isn't a good one, considering all variants of the Toyota Sienna are in one page in Wikipedia. A better example is the iPhone variants. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:20, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::I personally use the graphics cards as an example since they also use the thousands to denominate different iterations, see [[wikipedia:GeForce]]. The Poltergust isn't quite elaborate but it's the same kind of approach I'd do with the Poltergusts. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:42, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::I see this more akin to how things like [[hammer]]s are sometimes given throwaway "model" names, like the "HAMMAWHACK" from TTYD. We don't split that sort of thing - and I don't think that example is entirely an invention of the localization, unlike "Poltergust 3000." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:16, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::::It's not really a localization quirk when Luigi's Mansion 3 has a poster that displays all models, all named. Even if it was, they could have easily dropped the moniker going to the next games and they just didn't, they've embraced it by the time the third game came out. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 01:55, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::::Where's this poster? It would be helpful if we could grab a screenshot of it for reference. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 07:03, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::::I mean, Luigi's Mansion 3 wasn't developed in Japan, so you're right, it isn't a '''localization''' quirk. Yes, each game introduces a new design for the Poltergust, which contextualizes the game's unique mechanics. They're still iterations of the same ''thing''. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:22, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::::Luigi's Mansion 1 was developed in Japan, which is why I ''explicitly'' referred to the "version" of it in that game. That you assumed I also meant the LM3 one just shows how pointless this split is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:09, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| [[File:LM3 Poltergusts.png|thumb|300px]]
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| :::::::::Here is the image on the right. I don't like categorizing things as "localization quirk", these names aren't named in a vacuum without any oversight, they're brought back and forth between development teams, plus we don't know if Luigi's Mansion 3 was written with an English script or Japanese script first (possibly both at the same time with back and forth between the two teams) even though the game is developed by an American studio because ultimately the rights holder is still a Japanese publisher with all of upper management being there. Even regardless, most textures for posters aren't even in Japanese anyway, all the sponsors in the Mario Kart series [[Coco Burger|are]] [[Bullet Oil|written]] [[Fire Flower Oil|in]] [[Green Fuel|English]]. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:54, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::::::Again though, that is all for 3. The original "Obacuum" was from a JP-developed game, which is my point. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:16, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| :Aside from what Waluigi Time stated (which I personally think is important here as well), I do think it's disingenuous to compare characters (which are supposed to be living people) to machines, so comparing Tanooki Mario and Yoshi (based entirely on gameplay changes alone) to the Poltergust line (in which there's at the very least an ''in-game justification'' why each model is different/upgraded) is just weird to me. As for F.L.U.D.D. in Smash Bros, its limits ''also'' stem from gameplay changes instead of lore changes (and heck, even if extra nozzles are implemented to make F.L.U.D.D. more lore-accurate, Mario would only have access to the default nozzle and the Hover Nozzle anyway, as the latter can only be swapped out with either of the remaining nozzles through [[Nozzle box|external means]]).<br>By this logic, might as well re-merge [[Ice Mario (Super Mario Galaxy)|Ice Mario]] with [[Ice Mario]] based on the fact that the former can use the latter's ability in ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'', and the fact that they share all their international names across the board. Because if the Poltergust's different appearances, names and upgrades don't matter if the Japanese names are all the game, then Ice Mario's completely different appearance and ability in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' wouldn't matter, either. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:15, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::I ''do'' think Ice Mario needs re-examined and have floated that idea a few times before, so that comparison bothers me not at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:19, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::There's also Tanooki Mario and Kitsune Luigi, who are merged. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:51, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| I may be missing something, but I'm a bit annoyed that, despite all the opposition to this proposal, I don't think I have seen anyone argue against the merge itself. All I see is an alternative being given without any explanation as to why it is preferrable, and much arguing that the different iterations of the Poltergust do indeed have differences and are indeed iterations. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:15, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :You should have included an extra option. I've already explained why I prefer a catch-all Poltergust page and then individual pages: I feel like it's the best compromise between leaving the pages as is AND having a general article that gives an overview of all of its variants at once: specific variants of Poltergusts have their own history, design (I greatly prefer to see which games the original Poltergust design appears in -Poltergust 3000- for example in which it having its own page would include all the information, it's not like at its current state, information is scant), and functionality that sets them apart from the other designs. I've already compared it to [[Mario Circuit]] and I think, in most ways, similar to how Mario Circuit 1, 2, 3, etc are all split from each other where more specific information about them would be contained. It doesn't help that the Poltergust 4000 and the Super Poltergust 3001 are the odd ones left out if we split as proposed, while my solution would also serve to address that variant. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::The race tracks don't really have anything in common other than the names and being paved. These are all functionally the same thing with game-exclusive power-ups added. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:12, January 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::That runs to my point: that's why I think a better idea is a Poltergust overview article but the individual models have their own because they're distinct enough to be treated as separate entities. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 02:00, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Wouldn't such an article go against into "once and only once"? Every single appearance would be covered on two different pages, unlike [[Koopa Shell]], for example. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:34, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::Not necessarily because the Poltergust article would just be a brief summary than an in-depth look at each iteration, similar to practically members of species or organizations such as [[Koopalings]] or [[Axem Rangers]]. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:59, January 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::IDK, the "all functionally the same thing with game-exclusive power-ups added" point makes this situation feel like splitting Mario's Cap in different games where it has powered-up versions of it, in my opinion (like ''Land 2'' and ''64''). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:39, January 16, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::The ''Mario 64'' caps are a bad example, considering we have separate articles for the [[Metal Cap]], [[Wing Cap]], and [[Vanish Cap]]. Even then, the Bunny ears cap, the Raccoon ears cap and other caps are all ''transformations of the same object'', while the Poltergusts are different models that coexist as separate objects. It's honestly more comparable to if we split the HAMMAWHACK 2005 from ''The Thousand-Year Door'', from the [[Super Hammer]] page, except that unlike the Poltergust, the HAMMAWHACK is only alluded as a different name and model with powers in-text only (and only from a small portion at that), and is otherwise near identical to other Super Hammers in other games. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:23, January 16, 2025 (EST)
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