Editing Talk:Paris Promenade

== adding trivia ==

is it worth adding that this is the first course in the Mario Kart series to be a classic course in a came that game out before the game it came from? it's considered a classic course in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, which released in 2017, but this course is from Mario Kart Tour, which released in 2019 [[User:RSM|RSM]], hoping to make amends soon. 12:25, February 27, 2022 (EST)
:I mean, isn't that the case for every single track from ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'' that will make it to the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - Booster Course Pass]]''? Even then, this is not the absolute first one since there is 3 ''Mario Kart Tour'' exclusive tracks that will be released on wave 1. And the ''Booster Course Pass'' is from 2022, not 2017. So they are considered retro tracks right now. And even considering all that, yes, these tracks are from a theoretically newer game, but are included in a game that launched in 2017. But with everything I said, I just think it's not absolutely true, plus is not specific to this track at all. {{User:Lastro/sig}} 08:17, February 28, 2022 (EST)

== Page rename now? ==

Since Paris Promenade and Tokyo Blur are technically now in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe via the 2.0.0 update, and their icons are visible clearly showing the prefixes, is it time to add the prefix to the title or do we wait until its actually playable? [[User:RSM|RSM]], hoping to make amends soon. 11:56, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
:I believe we should wait until the track releases. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 12:35, March 17, 2022 (EDT)

== Request for new article for the MK8DX version of the track ==

Note: To refer to the track found in Tour I'll say ''Paris Promenade 1'' and to refer to the track found in 8 Deluxe I'll say ''Paris Promenade DX''.

Should <small>Tour</small> Paris Promenade (and by extension <small>Tour</small> Tokyo Blur and every city course to come) be a separate article from "Paris Promenade 1"? My reasons are:

*This article's purpose before the Booster Course Pass was to refer to the ''first layout'' of the overall Paris Promenade map in Tour
*''Paris Promenade DX'' has an entirely different layout and works entirely different than ''Paris Promenade 1''
*Paris Promenade 2 and Paris Promenade 3 from Tour won't make it to the DLC because the places those courses visit in the overall Paris Promenade map are already visited in ''Paris Promenade DX'', so it wouldn't make sense to put that the "first layout" made it to the DLC but the second and third didn't when the last two technically did

The MK8DX track would then be separated to its own article called "Tour Paris Promenade", while the Tour track of the same name would keep its place in this article.

Please let me know if my reasons aren't very clear or understandable before rejecting or accepting the idea, and please know that I'm open to any discussion or counterarguments that this might generate.

[[User:MatiasNTRM|MatiasNTRM]] ([[User talk:MatiasNTRM|talk]]) 22:42, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
:That actually might be a good idea, honestly. <del>I'd even argue doing away with console abbreviations entirely, though that's a discussion for another time.</del> Though I'll wait to see what anyone else has to say in the matter. {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 23:46, March 17, 2022 (EDT)
::I think that sounds reasonable. The track layout, for starters, is not the same as Paris Promenade. And the naming isn't conflicting with anything either, as Paris Promenade refers to Tour's first variation of the track, which itself is technically not in MK8D. Same goes for Tokyo Blur, at in that case, it's technically three tracks in one, but none of them individually. Point is, I agree with this idea. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

all necessary info is perfectly explained here, I see no reason why an entire page should be made when the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe section on this article explains it perfectly. There isn't a page for other tracks that change layout between games (Sunset Wilds, Sky Garden, Wario Stadium, etc.) all Nintendo did was remove or add some barriers, that does not require a new article. [[User:RSM|RSM]], hoping to make amends soon. 11:22, March 20, 2022 (EDT)
:By that logic, this page should also cover [[Paris Promenade 2]] and [[Paris Promenade 3]]. Those, too, just involve the addition and removal of barriers. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:00, April 19, 2022 (EDT)
::those pages already do explain this? [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:00, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
what we really need is '''one page for all of Paris Promenade''', one page for all of Tokyo Blur, etc. '''because they are fundamentally the same course, just different routes'''. They should all be combined into one page, with different sections for different versions, a section for Paris Promenade, a section for Paris Promenade 2, and so on. Would make it less confusing and means less pages for what is practically the same course. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:02, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
::edit the ''Course Layout'' section under ''Mario Kart Tour'' so there are different paragraphs for the three iterations, combine all their infoboxes together, labelling the different Tours so we know what tour they're describing (i.e., saying "Paris Tour (2019) <small>(1)</small>, 2nd Anniversary Tour <small>(1, 2)</small>) and caption the minimaps so it explains which map is for what iteration of the course. Honestly I don't know why this isnt how its always been, they are the same course after all. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:08, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
::if we have four pages for one course it's all going to get confusing, it'd be like having a page for the Star Cup in one game; then having another page for the Star Cup because it was in a different game, we combine them together into one page, it's exactly the same thing here. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:11, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
:::But in my opinion, this makes the page too messy and long. We would need to have lots of sections and notes to separate the four variants, and since MKT's still running, and the game treats these as different courses, I definitely wouldn't agree with a merge. I feel like it would be better to merge this when the game is discontinued if we really want to merge them. Also, [[Splash Circuit]] and [[Tropical Coast]] are also basically the same course but with different routes if I'm not mistaken. {{User:WildWario/sig}} 08:14, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
::::so are [[Bowser's Castle (Mario Kart Arcade GP)]] and [[Castle Wall]], but those are the same page [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:33, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
I've created [[User:RSM/Paris Promenade|a page]] to demonstrate this, yes it has a lot of sections but at least people don't have to switch between 5 different pages to read about the same course [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:32, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
:I'm okay with the demonstration page, it looks pretty good, but Bowser's Castle and Castle Wall are currently being suggested to be split, so I don't think that's a good example. Though if we really do need to merge the pages, I think it's better to at least wait until Paris Promenade 4 releases. {{User:WildWario/sig}} 08:42, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
::i completely agree that we should wait until Paris Promenade 4 releases for this discussion. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:47, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
:::Is there evidence Paris Promenade 4 is on the horizon? And in any case, I don't think we should be looking at this as a discussion ''just'' about Paris Promenade - our decision here will also affect [[Tokyo Blur]], and (depending on whose proposal we go with and what the rest of the Booster Course Pass looks like) potentially every single city track Tour has. With that in mind, I think this would be a discussion best had in a [[MarioWiki:Proposal|proposal]] than just in this talk page. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:18, April 23, 2022 (EDT)
::::I personally think it's best to discuss it first. But either way, I'd completely agree with putting all variants of these city tracks together into one collective article. While they are all different routes, they do share many pathways with each other, especially in both [[New York Minute]] and [[Tokyo Blur]]'s 4 variants. And at the same time, I don't think it's necessary to wait until a 4 variant is released, since most of the track variants still use similar routes even before a 4th variant releases. Additionally, it also helps with the ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' sections, as they generally use the same routes, but in different ways. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:::::Perhaps you are right to say we should have a discussion in here before doing a proposal - I gather there's some sort of week timer on those? In any case, it's occurred to me that I haven't given my thoughts on RSM's full merge idea. It is a bit... unprecedented. My gut is to compare them to the SNES numbered courses, but is that even accurate? The city tracks are the same 3D spaces with minor additions and subtractions, so perhaps they're more like {{classic-link|GCN||Luigi Circuit}} than the SNES courses or RMX courses, which share only a background and otherwise have an entirely new tilemap. Hey, wait a minute; isn't [[Kalimari Desert 2]] the same thing as the city courses? A reroute through the same 3D space? Doesn't that mean if we go with a full merge we'd have to merge that into the Tour section of [[Kalimari Desert]]? In any case, truth be told, I'll take either a full merge ''or'' a full split as long as we don't have the MK8DX versions of the tracks being treated as identical to the 1 version and no others. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:53, April 23, 2022 (EDT)
::::::I think there should be a separate page for the MK8DX version and link all of the Tour versions of Paris Promenade inside it because it is completely different from all of the Tour versions. The MK8DX version covers Paris Promenade and its two other variants, so renaming the original page to Paris Promenade 1 and creating another page for the DX version sounds right, considering we already have Kalimari Desert 2 with a separate page. But what about the SNES courses? I take those as separate layouts, especially since Koopa Beach 1 and Koopa Beach 2 are very different from each other and have the same page, but in the original SMK, all the properties and item probabilities of these tracks were linked together, so it made sense to link all the courses of one theme together in that case. Now, 30 years later, we should really separate the city courses in the Booster Course Pass from the Tour versions, as they are basically a compilation of variants 1-3 of a city course combined into 3 laps. The same will be done with New York Minute, Tokyo Blur, etc., so this decision requires intense deliberation. Let's discuss and see what the admins decide first. {{User:LucZha003/sig}} 23/04/2022 23:48:40 (EDT)
:::::::Um, [[Koopa Beach 1]] and [[Koopa Beach 2]] are separate pages and, as far as I can tell, always have been. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:53, April 23, 2022 (EDT)
::::::::The SNES tracks are indeed completely different layouts and have always had individual articles. The city tracks (and now that you mention it, Kalimari Desert 2 by extenstion) are reroutes and nearly all of them (barring [[Los Angeles Laps]] in particular) start in the same place. Tokyo Blur is a great example of this, as all four variants start in the same place, but go in different places of the map, using the same roads present rather than being completely different layouts each time. For the sake of consistency, it would likely be better to merge Kalimari Desert 2 if we were to merge all the city track layouts into one. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::::::::i see no reason why we wouldnt be able to just merge Kalimari Desert and Kalimari Desert 2's articles together since, again, they are fundamentally the exact same course. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:21, April 24, 2022 (EDT)
::::::::Merging the SNES course pages is different, i dont think they should be merged as they are entirely separate courses, the Tour city courses aren't, theyre the same course just different routes. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:22, April 24, 2022 (EDT)
:In Super Mario 64 DS, some stages were modified drastically, including new stars, removing previous ones, changing the layout, etc. Yet we have them in the same article as their original SM64 variations. This is the exact same thing, except Mario Kart and not Super Mario 64. if we can have them games be combined in one page, then we can most certainly have these together too. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:25, April 24, 2022 (EDT)
:Also, if they are truly entirely separate courses (thus warranting separate pages) then why would nintendo combine them together in MK8, surely if they are actually separate courses, nintendo would've kept them separate. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 08:33, April 24, 2022 (EDT)
As people are also bringing up '''''Tokyo Blur''''', i have also created [[User:RSM/Tokyo_Blur|a page for that course]] to demonstrate how that'd appear too. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 12:22, April 24, 2022 (EDT)
::To be honest, the thing that really interests me about the change to Tokyo Blur is what the [[List of Tokyo Blur tour appearances in Mario Kart Tour]] page is going to look like after the merge. Will it still just be Tokyo Blur 1? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:32, April 24, 2022 (EDT)
:::i dont see why they cant be combined together too [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 12:33, April 24, 2022 (EDT)

So if we take this to a proposal, our three options are:
# Leave as is.
# Split the 8DX versions of the city courses from the first version of the course in Tour.
# Merge all versions of the city courses together into one article (and also merge [[Kalimari Desert 2]]).
Are there any other ways we could do this, or are these our only options? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:07, April 24, 2022 (EDT)

if i am being completely, brutally honest, I don't see a single benefit of making them all separate pages, because surely that would just be more inconvenient and confusing for people to browse, surely that would mean more loading time between pages, more pages with less info on and more repetitive articles? can someone fill me in on how splitting them would be better than combining them? [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 07:24, April 25, 2022 (EDT)
:I think one of the main reasons they are separate is because they are technically different tracks, even if they all take place in the same area and use the same routes as other variants. And if I'm gonna be honest, if these tracks weren't returning in MK8D with the idea of using different routes on different laps, I'd probably support them being split. But with MK8D adding these tracks by their base name, but not racing by their base layouts, I do feel it might be easier to merge them together. Either giving the MK8D versions their own article or merging them all, I'm okay with either. I feel it would be better than having a section on Tokyo Blur 1's article listing a version that also races on Tokyo Blur 2 and Tokyo Blur 3 (and to a lesser degree, the naming becomes rather inconsistent, as all other tracks that have returned have their console abbreviations/prefixes before them, but Tour tracks don't because Tour is always updating, so an article for the MK8D versions could help with that.) {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:::i still dont see why they should be different articles, theyre all different layouts in the same location, and its the location that the page is for, i dont see why it should be any other way [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 15:43, April 25, 2022 (EDT)
::I think the thing swaying me most toward a full merge is that... I think that whole "new route through same 3D space" and "new track with same tileset" distinction is the actual philosophy Nintendo themselves are using. I mean, I didn't understand why Kalimari Desert 2 wasn't an RMX course until having this conversation. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 13:44, April 25, 2022 (EDT)
:::Not gonna lie, when Kalimari Desert 2 was first shown off, I thought it was a RMX track. But there is a clear difference between the city tracks and the SNES/RMX tracks. Those are entirely new layouts in general and, obviously speaking, should remain split from each other. They're not re-routes, they only share the same backgrounds and same tileset, not the same layouts. The city tracks do share layouts (such as Paris Promenade 1 and 3 both going around the Arc de Triomphe or all three going under the Eiffel Tower). They all use the same track, just different routes. I'd support merging the city tracks into one and even merging Kalimari Desert 2 (though maybe best to make that a separate option too, like merging just the city tracks and merging the city tracks and KD2), but the SNES/RMX tracks I'd vote to remaining split. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

the SNES and RMX courses should remain split, they are separate courses completely of course, the city courses however are set within the exact same location and are all literally visible in each other... because they are the same course, it's just you take different turns in each version, that definitely does not warrant entire seperate articles for each version [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 21:03, April 25, 2022 (EDT)

==Split, Merge or Keep Mario Kart Tour city course articles==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|passed|7-0-9|split off MK8DX versions}}
Regarding city courses in ''Mario Kart Tour'' and, later, ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''. The debate is whether to split the articles, merge the articles or leave them as they are. Only city courses will have pages affected, RMX courses will remain separated articles, and {{classic-link|N64|Kalimari Desert 2}} will be merged too. This is due to the tracks being the same course, just different routes within that same location/track.

Examples of how these pages will look after a merge can be found [[User:RSM/Paris Promenade|here]] and [[User:RSM/Tokyo Blur|here]].

Below is a list of benefits of each argument:

'''Reasons for leaving as is:'''
*All information is explained decently enough as it currently is (i.e. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe routes are mentioned on each separate article already.)

'''Reasons for merging articles:'''
*They are all the same course and location, just different routes taken.
*The wiki has always combined pages in situations like this (i.e. locations in Super Mario 64 vs Super Mario 64 DS).
*Makes it easier to navigate for, as it would be only one page as opposed to potentially five separate pages.
*Removes a lot of repeated information, a lot of city courses use similar routes, so a lot of information on different articles is often repeated.
*Reduces number of stubby articles, instead of potentially five small pages, there'd be one big page.

'''Reasons for splitting articles:'''
*Despite being the same course and same location, they are still different routes and have different names.
*Contains information on all versions, so people only wanting to read about one version of the course will need to wait slightly longer for the page to load.


'''Proposer''': {{User|RSM}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 10, 2022, 23:59 GMT

===Merge articles together===
#{{User|RSM}}, points why are explained in proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary option. The examples seem pretty clean, easy to navigate and have everything one would need on the overall track.
#{{User|ahemtoday}} Seems to be consistent with how Nintendo themselves views the tracks. (Also, it's not like we have the T or R variations listed separately either.)
#{{User|Arend}} They're basically parts of the same location with the exact same aesthetics (unlike the ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'' courses, which only have minimaps resembling the old Arcade GP ones), it would make navigation simpler and less cluttered, and less repetition because, again, same aesthetics. Same goes for Kalimari Desert 2, which minimap is the exact same as Kalimari Desert's in ''Mario Kart 64'' anyway.
#{{User|Hewer}} Although this isn't how we usually handle Mario Kart courses, this situation of multiple courses merging into one is as far as I know unprecedented. I think this would be the best way to handle this since the 'Tour' identifier used for them in 8 Deluxe shows they're not meant to be considered new courses in that game.
#{{User|PhGuy12}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DannyTheDingo}} Per all. This is most convenient for seeking out information. If this goes through, the Appearances section should always link to a separate article, like in the Tokyo Blur mockup.

===Leave articles as they currently are===

===Split articles up===
#{{User|Swallow}} Pretty sure this would be consistent with how other Mario Kart tracks are handled.
#{{User|Tails777}} Primary choice. While I did fully support merging them all, they are all individual tracks and making a separate article for the MK8D versions was something I supported from the get-go. MK8D's versions of the tracks do play by different rules compared to their original variants and it doesn't feel right simply merging these different routes in with the one that just so happens to share the same name.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I don't really like the look of the article with needing subsections for each iteration of the course, it feels very cluttered. I think it would be easier for readers to be able to find all the information on a specific iteration in one place, rather than having it chopped up across a shared article.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|WildWario}} I would rather have the MK8 variants be split rather than merging the city courses. We don't have [[Splash Circuit]] and [[Tropical Coast]] merged, even though they're the same course but with different routes, and the city courses are starting to use more different routes. Take [[Vancouver Velocity]] and its [[Vancouver Velocity 2|second variant]] as an example. The first one mostly takes place on the suspension bridges, while the second one mostly takes place in the city areas, so they won't have that many similar information, and the articles aren't stubby, they're just shorter. Also, the new [[Amsterdam Drift]] has a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkgYIY464TY whole hidden underwater section which I think is extremely different]. The most important part, in my opinion, is that MKT considers them as '''different courses''', and it's not discontinued, and won't be for a while, since there are still unreleased city course variants. Though I am okay with merging the Kalimari Deserts. Also ahemtoday, the R, T and R/T variants aren't split, because they are usually the exact same course with some added ramps or being in reverse, unlike the numbered variants, which go through different areas and have completely different layouts.
#{{User|ahemtoday}} Call me easily-swayed, but per WildWario, I find myself once more unwilling to be the difference-maker here. I reiterate that I'm fine with either option as long as we don't treat the 8DX versions as identical to the 1 version and ''only'' the 1 version.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|MatiasNTRM}} I keep my stand set when I started this whole thing. The articles can have a [[Template:About]] at the top for easier navigation. Per all.
#{{user|Prpro&#61;03}} Per all.

===Comments===
If anyone can give any other reasons for leaving, splitting, or merging then let me know. [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 13:10, April 26, 2022 (EDT)

What exactly is the difference between splitting the articles and leaving everything as is? Aren't those the same suggestion (as the city course variants are already split) or is splitting implying that we split off the MK8D info onto separate articles? {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::splitting the articles means creating a page for the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe iteration [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 13:38, April 26, 2022 (EDT)

Considering the amount of pages this will potentially affect, I can't help but think this ought to be a [[MarioWiki:Proposals|general proposal]] instead... [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 14:39, April 26, 2022 (EDT)

If we do split off the MK8 version from the Tour version (which I'm OK with, even if it isn't my preferred choice), I do think it's important to not regard the MK8 version as a brand new, completely different courses, as Nintendo themselves considers them the same tracks from Mario Kart Tour, like Hewer stated. Like perhaps the MK8 version would have to be about the full track and still be regarded as something from Mario Kart Tour (and thus described on the Mario Kart Tour page as well, and listed on Mario Kart Tour navigation templates), while the MKT version would get the 1 identifier in its title. [[User:Arend|Arend]] ([[User talk:Arend|talk]]) 11:20, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
:We could put in the opening paragraph that they are returning tracks using unique layouts, to show that they are still Tour tracks working with exclusive layouts. Also, would we use the “Tour” prefix for the MK8D versions (Tour Paris Promenade etc.)? It would differentiate names. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:Perhaps the 8DX version's article could also be the article for the city track in general? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:26, April 27, 2022 (EDT)

Out of curiosity: what happens to [[Berlin Byways 2]] if we do a full merge? Do we just move it to [[Berlin Byways]]? (Come to think of it, what would happen if "do nothing" wins, Berlin Byways gets into the Booster Course Pass, and Berlin Byways 1 hasn't appeared in Tour yet?) [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:26, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
:I imagine it would be unaffected by this proposal since there's nothing to merge it to. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:55, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
in a news post by nintendo posted today (April 29th) they explicitly say that Paris Promenade in MK8 and in Tour are the exact same course "This course originally made its debut in the smart device app Mario Kart Tour" they themselves say they're the same course, the pages need to be merged because they're the same course [[User:RSM|RSM]], not who i used to be. 21:25, April 29, 2022 (EDT)
:I mean, I think it was already obvious that they're the same up to a point, the game even says they're from Tour (except Ninja Hideaway, for some reason). The issue is that the MK8 versions have different layouts that, as I understand it, are sort of an amalgamation of all the Tour variants. It's all or nothing, it can't be cleanly or accurately merged to any one of the Tour courses, so it's either split it out or merge everything, and I'd rather not do the full merge for the reasons already stated. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:36, April 30, 2022 (EDT)

Just occurred to me that if we do a full split, we haven't really discussed what happens with [[Ninja Hideaway]] (and possibly [[Merry Mountain]]. I would assume the MK8 info remains on the page? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:54, May 8, 2022 (EDT)
:This only affects courses with multiple variations. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 21:06, May 8, 2022 (EDT)