Editing Talk:Parabuzzy

This is the renamed Parabeetle for Paper Mario 2. All info for it is on the Parabeetle page.
<br>- [[User: Yoshi Mastar|Yoshi Master]]

How is the pic stolen paper jorge?--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 21:51, 23 January 2007 (EST)
And why did you removed it?--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 21:56, 23 January 2007 (EST)

:Someone stole it from www.themushroomkingdom.net. And you were the one who did it. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

Actually I didn't stoled it and I was trying to make this article more detailed by adding the image to it and are you going to put an image on this article?--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 21:59, 23 January 2007 (EST)

Only if we find a picture not stolen. You can put a picture with a sprite on it from a site but a picture like that (back background and text) is a NO and means it's stolen. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

Silence now! And add info to mine.
<br>- [[User: Yoshi Mastar|Yoshi Master]]

==Pic Vote==
Everyone vote for which image to use for this article.

*[[Image:Para buzzy.PNG|50 px]]
#{{User|Aipom}}
#[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:23, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
#{{User:Yoshi626/sig}} 17:41, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

*[[Image:Parabeetle.PNG|50 px]]
#{{User:Fg/sig}}

Problem solved, keep Fg's, but add mine too.--{{User|Aipom}}--
[[Image:1770.jpg|50 px]]
:Now we just need to make sure that's ok with everyone else. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:32, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Anyway, the first pic has the image of BOTH of the other two, I'm for that one. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I personally like that one better too. I was just trying to give both people what they wanted.--{{User|Aipom}}--
:Now that I actually read what you typed (you know I was kidding, right Aipom?), that's a good idea. Give me a minute, I'll make the change and check in with the rest of you. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:40, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
::Can we all live with this? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:42, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes.--{{User|Aipom}}--

Could you unprotect the page now?--{{User|Aipom}}--
:Done. I keep forgetting that I can't just click Unprotect, I've gotta switch it to Default. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:47, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

==Name==
Should this page be moved to Parabuzzy? That's what they're called in ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''. Or are they a different species? --{{User:Yoshi626/sig}} 19:43, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

No this should stay as parabeetle.{{User:Fg/sig}}
:Why? They were renamed Parabuzzy, so the page should have it's modern name. --{{User:Yoshi626/sig}} 19:50, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Well ask a sysop.{{User:Fg/sig}}

Just make a note of it in the PMTTYD section.--{{User|Aipom}}--
:I still think this should be moved, since they haven't been called Parabeetles since ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'', and ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]'' came out fourteen years afterward. --{{User:Yoshi626/sig}} 19:57, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
::Does anybody have a good reason as to why this page shouldn't be moved? --{{User:Yoshi626/sig}} 20:09, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Para'''buzzy''' is its current official name and I think the rules are to move pages to the newest name.<br>[[User:Confused|<span style="color:Red;">I</span>]] [[User talk:Confused|<span style="color:Blue;">am</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Confused|<span style="color:Green;">Confused</span>]] 21:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

So wait, now since there's a Buzzy with wings we're gonna call Para-Beetles Buzzy Beetles? What OFFICIALLY said that Para Beetles are now Para-Buzzies? '''[[User:InfectedShroom|InfectedShroom.]]'''[[Image:infectoicon.png]]
:According to [http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/hvc-um.shtml#enemies this] and [http://themushroomkingdom.net/pmttyd_j2e.shtml#bad this] site, both "Parabuzzy" and "Para-Beetle" have the same name in Japanese, Pata Met (Met=Buzzy Beetle). Their appearance changed, but that's nothing special, especially after a very long absence. There are several enemies which were named different at least one time in English, but retained their names in the original, such as [[Goby]] (Cheep-Cheep/Pukupuku), [[Shy Away]] (Beezo/Tondariya) and [[Flopsy Fish]] (Cheep-Cheep/Pukupuku again). I would like to see those merged as well, but that's just my humble opinion... --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 13:47, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

==I added info on Green Para-Beetles.==
I added info on the page about Green Para-Beetles, a enemy exclusive to the Game Genie Sky Level.

==Merge Parabuzzy to [[Para-Beetle]]==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|red|DON'T MERGE 3-14}}

[[Sky Koopa]], [[Shy Away]], [[Goby]], these articles are merged because not only do they look just like [[Koopa Paratroopa]], [[Shy Guy]], and [[Cheep Cheep]], respectively, they both share the exact same japanese name, and Japan is the country of origin. So may I ask why Parabuzzy remains separate? Aside from a different shell color, they look the same, and they have the same japanese name. So going by the logic that merged the articles I previously mentioned, I propose to merge this to Para-Beetle. 

'''Proposer''': {{User|Reversinator}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 21, 2011, 23:59 

===Support===
#{{User|Zero777}} I don't see what makes them different and plus we could add on the Parabuzzy section that they are called "Parabuzzy" in those games. Plus, how do you think Lava Bubble got merged with Podoboo?
#{{User|YoshiGo99}} Both articles are kind of short. They both don't have red eyes like most Buzzy Beetles do. This is just like moving Mr Kipper to the Cheep Cheep article. The two have a lot in common which is why we should merge them.
#{{User|Kaptain K. Rool}} - Per proposal

===Oppose===
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Actually, they're fine separate since they you can see most differences such as that the Para-Beetle has no feet and has an out of proportion head compared to the Parabuzzy, also the two creatures have different attack patterns and such.(However, the Para-Beetles don't really attack at all.) Besides that would be like merging [[Cheep-Cheep]] and [[Deep-Cheep]] since they look the same but have different colors, attack patterns, and movements.
#{{User|Bowser's luma}} Per UltraMario.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per UltraMario.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. Para-Beetles don't attack while Parabuzzies do. Plus they have slightly different looks so they should stay split.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all, and per what I said in favour of not merging the articles when it was first brought up on [[Talk:Para-Beetle]]. The proposal was incorrect in stating that they look the same besides their shell colour because one has legs while the other doesn't: that alone is reason enough to keep them separate, not to mention the behavioural differences and the fact that one turns into a Buzzy Beetle when stomped on while the other one keeps its wings. Like I said in the comments, we should split/merge things based on facts like these, rather than simply defaulting to a single region's names every time. While Japan often ''is'' the more reliable region when it comes to names, I think NoA made the right call ''this time'', and that's all that matters.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Bop1996}} Ahh, ninja'd! Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Reversinator}} Embarassing, but per all.
#{{User|Iggykoopa}} there not the same thing even the shell color is different
#{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} I'll put it off as simply this: two enemies only related by name and appearance.
#{{User|Magikrazy51}} Para-Beetles are your friend, Parabuzzies aren't. What if Toads turned evil and changed names? Also per UltraMario.
#{{User|Ultrahammer5365}} Per all.
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per <s>UltraWario</s> UltraMario
#{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per all and that is that.

===Comments===
And why are you ignoring the examples I listed? Ok yes, they looked the same, but they had different attacks too. Plus, what about ''the japanese names''? --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 15:04, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

@Reversinator:Well the Japanese name may be the same as the Parabuzzy but your missing my point about Cheep-Cheeps. Anyways, I have to do homework now so I won't reply to your next comment.--[[File:WarTadaa.png]][[User:UltraMario3000|UltraWario3000]]([[User talk:UltraMario3000|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/UltraMario3000|edits]])[[File:WalTadaa.png]]
:And yet, I will reply. About your Cheep Cheep point, since they (presumably) have different japanese names (which, again, is the country of origin), they remain separate. If the japanese names are the same, then that means they were intended to be the same species. This is the same logic that merged [[Sky Koopa]], [[Goby]], and [[Shy Away]], by the way. --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 15:13, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
::As I said on the [[Talk:Boomerang Bro.|Boomerang Bro. TPP]], everyone has the potential to make mistakes, including the Japanese. In your ''SMRPG'' examples, the translators were obviously the ones to make a mistake, since all those things are clearly the same as the species they're merged with, which is why we didn't just go with the English names. However, that's not the case here: as the opposers have noted, there are actually differences between Parabuzzies and Para-Beetles (one has legs, one doesn't; that's more than enough reason to split them as far as any biologist would be concerned). The idea that Japan has precedence over everything else worries me as much as if someone said English always takes the cake: we should go with the name that makes the most sense given all the facts we have at our disposal, regardless of what region happens to spawn that name. We should also approach everything on a case-by-case basis: being right about one thing doesn't mean they'll be right about something completely different. As long as someone official says something is different (or the same, if we're going the other way), it's not speculation to keep those things split, and I think it actually does our readers a greater service if we really think about things like this instead of just defaulting based on names alone. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:59, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
:::.........Am I aloud to oppose my own proposal? --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 21:37, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
::::Yes, it's been done before. See [[Talk:List of Implied Characters|here]].--[[User:Mario4Ever|Mario4Ever]]

Allowed =/= aloud. Don't confuse the two, please. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:21, 8 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm usually a great speller, but I always mix up allowed and aloud. Oh well, this is irrelevent. --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 13:55, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
@Reversinator: You could just have it deleted like my proposal about a certain green fish that I shall never speak of again. Rotanisrever! {{User|Magikrazy51}}
:No, that would be unfair to people who would support the idea. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}}
::There might be only a couple of supporting people, but still. --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 13:55, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
@YoshiGo99: That proposal was an accident and I deleted that. @Zero777: What confuses me is that you opposed said proposal yet support this one, it's the same dillemna. [[User:Magikrazy51|15Yzarkigam!]]
:Alright get it through your head, Mr. Kipper is a SUB-species of cheep-cheeps, it is NOT a cheep-cheep, also parabuzzy's japanese name proves that it is in fact a Para-beetle. {{User|Zero777}}
::I got that. That's why I had Walkazo delete it. However, Parabuzzy is different enough from Para-Beetle that it deserves it's own article. It's like the Boomerang Bros. from M&L:SS except in reverse. In Japan, they probably say "The American name proves that it's a regular Boomerang Bro. This wouldn't be an issue if we all spoke the same language, but we don't. From, [[User:Magikrazy51|The Magikrazy]] [[File:Magikrazy.png|30px]]
:::I get what you're saying but I still believe that it's unnecaserry for it to have it's own article just because it looks slightly different to fit into its enviroment. {{User|Zero777}}

You know what, we'll see what happens in the [[Paper Mario (Nintendo 3DS)|Paper Mario for the 3DS]]. In Paper Mario games, enemies tend to look different than their non-paper version (Like Dry Bones). BUT, in the recent PM3DS pics (NOT the one shown on E3), the enemies seem to resemble more their non-paper counterpart. I mean, just look at the Dry Bones of [[:File:PM3DS13.png|This screenshot]]. That looks more like [[:File:MP8_DryBones.png|This]], and not like [[:File:Paper Dry Bones.png|this]].<br/>Who knows that Parabuzzies look different, too. If they look the same as Para-Beetles, then a merge IS NEEDED. Do they look different, then it's not that necessary. {{User|Arend}}

@YoshiGo99: Mario and Luigi have a lot in common so should we merge them? [[File:Red_Yoshi_TTYD.png|30px]] [[User:Yoshiwaker|<span style=color:#F96300>Yoshi</span>]][[User talk:Yoshiwaker|<span style=color:#F00>waker</span>]] [[File:PMCS Orange Yoshi.png|30px]] 20:14, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

== Uh... ==

This should really be merged with [[Para-Beetle]]. They have the same Japanese name (Pata Metto) AND the same German name (Parakäfer), and the minor differences in behavior/appearance (losing their wings when jumped on, actually attacking, having legs), can be explained by RPG physics (it wouldn't really work as an enemy if you stood on it like a platform...). A lot of enemies act differently in RPGs, anyway. We merged Podoboo and Lava Bubble despite one being a jumping, almost indesctructible obstacle and the other being a floating, easy to kill enemy, which is even more of a difference than one simply having legs. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:52, 1 March 2015 (EST)

== Merge Parabuzzy With Para-Beetle ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|red|DON'T MERGE 1-7}}

They have the same name in Japanese and German, indicating they're supposed to be the same enemy. As for the differences such as having legs, losing their wings when stomped, actually having an attack, etc., that's likely due to RPG physics (how would a platform enemy even work in PM). Besides, it wouldn't be the first time an enemy was redesigned for the Paper Mario series, just look at [[Lava Bubble]]s, which have more differences (body shape being completely different, floating instead of jumping, being easy to kill instead of almost indestructible, spitting fire to attack).

'''Proposer''': {{User|Binarystep}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 23, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

===Support===
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per my reasons stated above.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Tails777}} Parabuzzies are meant to be a sub species to Buzzy Beetles and are specific to the Paper Mario series. Saying that said these types of enemies are just redesigns to fit the feel of a game is not a really good reason. Using that, I could suggest we merge Ice Piranha Plant to Frost Piranha cause Ice Piranha Plants act just like Frost Piranhas or merge Sky Guy with Fly Guy just cause they're both flying Shy Guys. Also I feel using same other region names as a reasoning to merge or split things is getting out of hand. Overall, I'm pretty sure Parabuzzies aren't meant to be Paper Mario versions of Parabeetles, they are meant to be different. Basically, per the proposal above me that I completely missed when writing this vote.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} According to the Para-Beetle article, they make a cameo in TTYD as a statue on a fountain. Parabuzzies also appear in TTYD, so therefore both Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies are known to exist at the same time in one game, so Para-Beetle =/= Parabuzzy.
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per all. According to Parabuzzy article, they bear some resemblance to Para-Beetles, but unlike that species, Parabuzzies have legs in addition to wings. Like other Buzzy Beetles. So I think since the physical of the enemy is different, they need to stay separate.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per the last TPP that tried to merge them, and also per what I said on [[Talk:Para-Beetle]] for good measure. While some languages give them the same name, other do not and as with all other TPPs concerning this sort of thing, we are free to choose whichever language(s) makes the most sense given the facts. And the facts are that one species has legs, one species does not; one species loses its wings when stomped and turns into Buzzy Beetles, the other does not; one species are harmless flying platforms, the other kind are damage-dealing enemies; they also have different shell colours (although this is a minor detail). While the Japanese names usually get it right, in this case, the English translators were correct to give these two obviously different species different names, and we should use those different names to maintain our separate articles.
#{{User|Stonehill}} Plus, aren't Parabuzzies returning in ''[[Mario Maker]]''? What's more, they're supposed to act the way Walkazo said they act. That's just more proof that Parabuzzies ≠ Para-Beetles! Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Magikrazy}} Per everyone in this and the previous proposal.
#{{User|Andymii}} Para-Beetles fly up/down when you step on them and serve as platforms. Parabuzzies are just Buzzy Beetles with wings. This makes them quite different; even the color of their shell is not the same.

===Comments===
Except we have no proof they're meant to be a subspecies other than the English localization. Also, Japan is the ''country of origin'', not just some "other region", hence why the wiki goes by the Japanese names. Also, how is saying they're a redesign ''not'' a good reason? There are no major differences between [[Para-Beetle]]s and [[Parabuzzies]] other than RPG physics. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 03:51, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

In fact, just to prove my point, here's a short list of enemies that were changed in Mario RPGs:

* [[Bill Blaster]]s
:'''Main series''': Called Bill Blasters, indestructible, and are double-ended
:'''Super Mario RPG''': Called Blasters, can be killed, and are double-ended
:'''Paper Mario series''': Called Bill Blasters, can be killed, and are single-ended
:'''Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga''': Called Bill Blasters, can be killed, and are double-ended

* [[Cheep Cheep]]s
:'''Main series''': Called Cheep Cheeps, and jump out of the water to attack
:'''Super Mario RPG''': Called Gobies, and can fly for short periods of time
:'''Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga''': Called Cheep Cheeps, and turn into [[Puffer-Cheep]]s if jumped on

* [[Koopa Paratroopa]]s
:'''Main series''': Called Koopa Paratroopas, and lose their wings when jumped on
:'''Super Mario RPG''': Called Sky Troopas, and don't lose their wings when jumped on
:'''Paper Mario series''': Called Paratroopas, have shades, and lose their wings when jumped on

* [[Lava Bubble]]s
:'''Main series''': Called Podoboos, almost indestructible, and jump out of lava to attack
:'''Super Mario RPG''': Called Sparkies, can be jumped on, floats, and spits fire
:'''Paper Mario series''': Called Lava Bubbles, easy to kill (but still can't be jumped on), floats, and spits fire
:'''Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga''': Not specifically named as far as I know, indestructible, and jump out of lava to attack

* [[Micro-Goomba]]s
:'''Main series''': Called Micro-Goombas, and usually can't directly harm the player
:'''Super Mario RPG''': Called Goombettes, and can actually attack
:'''Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time''': Not specifically named as far as I know, and disguise themselves as [[Mrs. Thwomp]]

Would you say any of these should be split because of their differences? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 05:22, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

:There are more differences between a Para-Beetle and a Parabuzzy than those enemies. Bill Blasters are named the same and act the same in pretty much every game, save for the fact you can kill them (which is a common thing for most enemies in an RPG game). Cheep-Cheeps have some additional features to them, though still generally act the same, same with Koopa Paratroopas. The only ones I see questionable are Lava Bubbles and Micro Goombas, but not by much. Most enemy differences are limited to slight name change and RPG suiting changes, nothing really major. Parabeetle and Parabuzzy differences are still pretty notable. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

::What major changes are there? The only differences are the name (which isn't even that different), losing their wings when jumped on (RPG physics), legs (result of RPG physics), shell color (which happened with [[Spike Top]] too), and having an actual attack instead of contact damage (RPG physics). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 06:56, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

SuperYoshiBros, can you provide proof of that besides an anonymous, unsourced claim in a wiki article? I also saw it claimed once that Space Food heals more HP in the X-Naut Fortress, which was also not true. Besides, smaller non-boss Bloopers appeared in the Boswer segments in that game, does that mean the TTYD Blooper should be split? And again, why are we suddenly disregarding the fact that English is the '''only''' language where there's a difference made between Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 11:13, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
:That information has been there since 2011, if it was false it probably would've been removed by now. However, if someone can prove me wrong I will happy to remove my vote. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 15:03, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
:Also, Bloopers are still Bloopers, even if they're a different size. It's obviously still meant to be a Blooper. Parabuzzy and Parabeetle are different - they look and act different. Also, all of the differences you've discounted as "RPG logic" which seems to border on speculation to me. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 15:13, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
::What I meant was, as the Paper Mario games are RPGs instead of platformers, an enemy that is also a platform would simply not work. As for having an actual attack instead of contact damage, that's definitely not speculative, as it happened with Goombas, Koopas, etc. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 16:19, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
:::But what about the fact that Parabuzzies have legs? How is that "RPG physics"? And Parabeetles don't turn into Buzzy Beetles when you stomp them, but Parabuzzies do. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 16:31, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
::::Para-Beetles are essentially platforms, which wouldn't work in an RPG, so they turn into Buzzy Beetles instead in the Paper Mario series, which is also consistent with other winged enemies. As for having legs, that's a very minor change, and is only present so they can turn into Buzzy Beetles when stomped. This is basically what happened with Podoboos/Lava Bubbles, only the differences between Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies are even more minor. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 21:05, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
:::::Para-Beetles can easily be made platforms in a Paper Mario game: line them up and instead of Mario engaging a battle with one, he actually walks on it. The elements of a platformer can easily be incorporated into an RPG. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::::::They could've also made Bill Blasters part of the background to be closer to platformers, but they didn't. Does that mean we need a new page for Paper Mario series Bill Blasters because they're nothing like their platformer versions? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 04:52, 10 March 2015 (EDT)
Walkazo, should we make a "Spike Top (Paper Mario)" page because they have a different colored shell than in the platformer games? As for one being "harmless flying platforms" (which actually hurt you from the side if I remember right) and the others being damage-dealing enemies, similar changes happened with a lot of enemies. Look at Goombas, for instance. In platformers, they walk toward you. In TTYD, they headbonk you. Does that make them seperate enemies because one just uses contact damage and the other actually attacks? No. It's RPG physics, because RPGs have slightly different rules than platformers. And again, it's not that "some languages give them the same name, others don't", it's that '''all''' of them do except English. That logically indicates they're supposed to be the same thing. Should we split Podoboo and Lava Bubble again because one's an obstacle and one's an enemy? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 04:52, 10 March 2015 (EDT)

In fact, looking at the talkpage for Lava Bubble, it appears you voted in favor of merging Podoboo and Lava Bubble. So now I'm curious, how is "floating, spitting fireballs, and being enemies instead of obstacles" less of a difference than "design more consistent with other Buzzy Beetles"?[[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 05:01, 10 March 2015 (EDT)

:I ''did'' say the shell colour was a minor detail; alone, it wouldn't be enough justification for a split (as I've said elsewhere), but it'd be an oversight to no point out that it ''is'' one of the things that separates them. All this "RPG physics" stuff is barely more than speculation, and it's selective at that, seeing as Para-Beetles' wings don't fall off, whereas that usually ''is'' a consistent trait of flying enemies in both RPGs and platformers (Paragoombas, Paratroopas). On the other hand, the plain-as-day observation that "one has legs and one does not" is ''not'' some hand-wavable possible side-effect of a genre shift - it is a clear design difference, and is (and always will be) my main argument for keeping the species separate. The fact that the enemies are both in contemporary games also undermines any ''non''-genre-based argument that Parabuzzies are updated Para-Beetles. There's only three languages with names known for both species, so it's not "'''all'''" vs. English, it's two vs. one, and what naming scene we side with isn't a majority-based system anyway: it's case-by-case based on which language makes the most sense and will allow us to present the information in the most logical way. Usually, the majority gets it right, but not always. The Podoboo / Lava Bubble situation is particularly screwy given that the English name seems to have changed so that the "jumping out of the lava" enemies are now (usually?) named the same as the ''Paper Mario'' enemies (then there's the occasional oneshot names like the ''PM''-precursor "Sparkies" of ''SMRPG''), plus the fact that the design and behaviour/function in the non-''PM'' appearances is highly variable (i.e. ''Mario Party'' seems to have them function many different ways from game to game, or even minigame to minigame). The TPP was three years ago so I can't remember the logic behind my vote back then, but looking at it now, my feeling is that given how inconsistent the enemy is in general, the simplest thing to do is to use the one consistent thing there is (the Japanese name) to put everything all in one place. Unfortunately, the article itself is in a rather sorry state: it's unclear which games call it what, and the appearances aren't thoroughly documented, which defeats the purpose of having everything in one place to compare, contrast and track the enemy through the ages and subseries and genres - but the hope is that that'll be fixed one day. Anyway, the point is, the Podoboo / Lava Bubble issue is very different from the clean-cut matter of Parabuzzies vs. Para-Beetles, so how I voted there isn't really relevant to how I voted here. It's all case-by-case. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 11:05, 10 March 2015 (EDT)
::RPG physics isn't quite speculation, though, considering it's happened before (like with Bill Blasters suddenly being actual enemies you can kill with even the most basic attacks if your attack power is high enough). Most likely, their wings falling off is for consistency with other winged enemies, and because it would be impossible for it to be both an enemy and a platform. As for their wings not falling off in platformers, their purpose in those games is to be platforms, so if their wings fell off, it'd defeat the entire purpose. As for both enemies being in contemporary games, that ultimately proves nothing, as "winged buzzy beetles that act as platforms" are only in platformers, and "winged buzzy beetles that act as enemies" are only in the Paper Mario series, which means it ''could'' be a redesign for that series specifically (though this is admittedly speculation, it's not without reason). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:53, 10 March 2015 (EDT)
Stonehill, to my knowledge, Parabuzzies were never specifically mentioned as being in [[Mario Maker]], it's speculation. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 15:26, 11 March 2015 (EDT)

I have a question for everyone who's opposed this so far. Should we split any of these?

* [[Lava Bubble (Paper Mario)]] from [[Lava Bubble]]
* [[Fire Guy]] from [[Fly Guy]]
* [[Shy Away]] from [[Beezo]]
* [[Bob-omb (Super Mario Sunshine)]] from [[Bob-omb]]
* [[Koopa Troopa (Classic)]] from [[Koopa Troopa]]
* [[Pokey (Super Mario Bros. 2)]] from [[Pokey]]
* [[Bill Blaster (Paper Mario)]] from [[Bill Blaster]]

They have as many differences (or more) as Para-beetles and Parabuzzies. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 03:17, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:Your enemies list have more or less the same physical. Para-Beetle and Parabuzzy do not have the same physical. ( different shell color, one has legs, one loses its wings to become a Buzzy Beetle.) Parabuzzy is like a flying version of Buzzy Beetle (eg: Koopa Troopa, Koopa Paratroopa). Para-Beetle is more of a subspecies, this is why I think they should remain separate.--[[User:LudwigVon|LudwigVon]] ([[User talk:LudwigVon|talk]]) 10:48, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
::Spike Tops have a different shell color in the Paper Mario series as well, so that's irrelevant. And the enemies in my list have about as many physical differences as Para-beetles and Parabuzzies. Lava Bubbles in the PM series look more like flames than bubbles, Fire Guys don't have mouths, Shy Aways have mouths, Bob-ombs in SMS have a completely different design, Koopas in older games walk on four legs, Pokeys in SMB2 are green and can be jumped on, Bill Blasters in the PM series are single-sided, etc. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 11:27, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
::::So the looks are the only real difference between Bill Blasters. Look at the similarities: they are stationary in both Paper Mario and the main series, they shoot Bullet Bills in both. That's basically all there is too it aside from their looks. Also Bill Blasters take on their main series appearance and undefeatable nature in Paper Mario: Sticker Star. Bill Blasters, of all the enemies you listed, are the least worthy of splitting. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:::::And Para-beetles and Parabuzzies both fulfill the role of "winged Buzzy Beetles", with only minor physical differences. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 23:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
::::::Fulfilling a role and being the same enemy are two different things; one's two different enemies with similar roles while the other is just the same enemy. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:::::::Except they're obviously the same enemy. Our only proof they aren't at this point is the English localization and nothing else. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 08:38, 16 March 2015 (EDT)

Binarystep, you say we need to merge this because the Japanese name is the same. This is like merging Kamek and Magikoopa because they have the same Japanese name. A another reason for me why Parabuzzy and Para-Beetle need to stay separate.--[[User:LudwigVon|LudwigVon]] ([[User talk:LudwigVon|talk]]) 13:57, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:That's different, there's a difference between a character and a species with the same name, and two (almost identical) species with the same name. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 23:28, 15 March 2015 (EDT)

::This kind of went into a "yes, they are," "no, they aren't," back and forth, so I thought I would add something that's been ignored this entire time and would hopefully bring some more perspective - the evolving design of the Buzzy family itself. Typically, the generic Buzzy Beetle had the 'sinister' glowing eyes and sunken head, whereas derivatives usually had 'cuter' plain eyes and visible head (and in their first appearance, Spike Tops appeared to have ''six'' legs, which, in my opinion, makes the "no legs" argument hold less water). Looking at the pre-''Sticker Star'' era ''Paper Mario'' games, it seems there was an attempt to "unify" these designs, since they were all based on Spike Top's ''Mario Clash'' legs, Para-Beetle's snail-like head and Buzzy Beetle's helmet-esque shell. From that angle, it certainly seems that the ''intent'' of the ''Paper Mario'' designers was for Para-Beetle to be the same thing as Parabuzzy. Unfortunately, implied/perceived intent only goes so far, since the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series has more or less standardized their appearances. Since Parabuzzy was left out of ''Sticker Star'', we don't know if it would've had Para-Beetle's design or if it would've diverged and had the new "hidden face/exposed beak" look. So intent aside, with ''Mario Maker'' soon using "Parabuzzy" mechanics when the recent platformers had consistently had "Para-Beetle" mechanics, are they one and the same ''at this time''? I can't say for sure.
::Then again, ''Sticker Star'' had both the green and yellow Pokeys as only an aesthetic difference of the same enemy, so even if they did return, it still may not be a universally conclusive answer. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:30, 21 March 2015 (EDT)

I always thought "they don't have legs" or "their legs are hidden" as the primary observation was a rather flimsy reason to keep them separate, given both enemies are very clearly intended to be direct winged derivatives of Buzzy Beetle, and the rest of their differing attributes can basically be chalked up to essential platformer/RPG differences. To me, it's like separating quadrupedal and bipedal basic Koopas (and both can definitely exist in the same space, if we're counting the quadrupedal Koopa Troopas and bipedal Dry Bones from the ''Galaxy'' games). However, the timing of this may not be the best, since as Stonehill points out RPG-style Parabuzzies ''seem'' to be returning in ''Mario Maker'' (although it remains to be seen if platformer-style Para-Beetles will be among them). Also, while in most cases I would say the language or country of origin should definitely supercede changes in localization, there are times when shared names are obviously not absolute - if the wiki took such an extreme stance across the board instead of doing this in a case-by-case basis, then [[Boom Boom#Names in other languages|Bunbun]] and [[Bunbun#Names in other languages|Bunbun]] might be part of the same article.


On a side note, @Tails777 - why ''aren't'' Ice Piranha Plants and Frost Piranhas considered the same? If you look at the recent Piranha Plant trophy from ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U'', you'll see that it lists a whole bunch of variants mostly from the platformers, with Frost Piranha taking the place of Ice Piranha Plant. Coupled with the Japanese version of the trophy using Ice Pakkun (if I recall correctly), and that suggests Ice Piranha is merely an [[SMW:NAMING#Acceptable sources for naming|alternate Prima name]]. That's probably a whole other discussion, though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:24, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:Well Ice Piranha Plants just shoot ice balls at Mario which are capable of freezing them and they look like generic Piranha Plants. Frost Piranhas are blue in color, they breath icy breath as oppose to ice balls and their bites are capable of freezing. As for the naming lists in the SSB4 trophies, they also list Elasto Piranhas, another RPG exclusive type of Piranha Plant so perhaps listing frost was intentionally referring to the Paper Mario Frost Piranha. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcffRvIIPMc&t=6m50s Taking another look,] I was incorrect - the Japanese version doesn't mention Frost/Ice Piranhas, but it instead mentions Fire Piranhas. It also didn't originally mention Elasto-Piranhas (ドカンパックン) - it actually lists eight variations instead of nine, and from the looks of it, Elasto being the odd one out seems to be a localization invention for some odd reason. Still, don't forget that Frost Piranhas from the RPGs/''PM'' predate the Ice Flower, which in itself has at least three major functions all considered the same thing (going by the RPG/''M&L'' it came from, the 3D/''Galaxy'' and 2D/''NSMB'' games). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:24, 15 March 2015 (EDT)
:I'd be wary of trying to merge [[Ice Piranha Plant]] and [[Frost Piranha]] only because we don't have info on the Japanese name of the former, which could confirm if they're the same thing or not. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 08:44, 16 March 2015 (EDT)
::[http://honndana.sakura.ne.jp/mario/dr.cgi?key=926 Ice Pakkun's entry at the Japanese Super Mario Daijiten (Big Dictionary)] considers them one and the same and even mentions that other localizations seem to have split them into two species due to design differences, but it should also be noted that while it generally makes for a decent "placeholder" source, [http://www.marioboards.com/index.php?topic=27067.0 it's not always a reliable one.] [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:30, 21 March 2015 (EDT)

== Merge Parabuzzy With Para-Beetle v2 ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|4-11|don't merge}}

They have the same Japanese and German names, which proves they're intended to be the same enemy (especially considering that the English localizations have been very inconsistent before). They also have pretty much the same design (with minor differences like most ''Paper Mario'' enemies). To answer opposition from before:

''"Parabuzzies have legs and lose ther wings when stomped, while Para-Beetles are just harmless platforms."''<br>
That's an example of RPG physics (and likely consistency with other winged versions of land enemies). And no, this isn't speculation, as there's already evidence in the form of [[Lava Bubble]]s, which act very differently in the ''Paper Mario'' series. We even merged ''SMRPG'''s Sparkies, and they can be ''jumped on''. The thing is, enemies that act as platforms just wouldn't work in an RPG setting. <sub>Besides, they're not even harmless, they do contact damage.</sub>

''"They could've just made them platforms on the overworld."''<br>
They could've made [[Bill Blasters]] indestructible hazards like in ''Sticker Star'', but they didn't. They even redesigned them a bit in the first three games. I'm sure that if the localization team decided to be inconsistent with them, we'd be arguing if Bill Blasters and "Bullet Blasters" were the same thing.

''"Parabuzzies have different colored shells than Para-Beetles."''<br>
So do ''Paper Mario'' series <sub>(except the first game)</sub> Spike Tops. The "normal" red ones are even considered a different species in that series.

''"Parabuzzies appear in Mario Maker, despite that being a platformer, proving they're different things."''<br>
Except they've never actually been officially named. It's an assumption based on how every enemy can have wings added to it, and how they'll probably keep their legs, making them Parabuzzies by the logic keeping them split in the first place.

''"Para-Beetles have a cameo in TTYD, proving they're different because they appear in the same game."''<br>
And platformer-style Podoboos appear in the Bowser segments, as do normally-sized non-boss Bloopers. There's a difference between two species coexisting and another design of something appearing as a reference or cameo.

''"If we should merge these because of the Japanese name, should we merge Kamek and Magikoopa?"''<br>
Faulty argument, one's a character and one's a species.

''"Biologically, having legs is a significant difference."''<br>
[[Koopa Troopa|So is changing from a realistic turtle to an anthro one.]] And since four-legged Koopas reappear in the Galaxy series alongside bipedial Dry Bones, should we make a seperate "Koopa Troopa (classic)" page?

''"Who cares about the Japanese names?"''<br>
It's a Japanese series. By treating the original names like hearsay, we're ignoring ''creator's intent'' (considering localizers don't make the games).

'''Proposer''': {{User|Binarystep}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 19, 2015, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per my reasons stated above.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I believe the case is much stronger this time around, and it addressed many concerns such as the ''Mario Maker'' one... Support.
#{{User|1337star}} Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Other than disagreeing about Kamek being a separate character from Magikoopas, per proposal and LinkTheLefty's comments below.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Tails777}} Regardless, I will oppose for the same reasons stated in the previous proposal. They still have clear differences that split them apart and unless you can prove that it was "creator's intent" for them to be the same, I will remain here in the opposing side.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - I stand by my arguments from every other time this merge has been attempted. Having no legs is ''not'' "RPG physics", and the TTYD cameo should ''not'' be written off so blithely either. The Podoboo/Sparky/Lava Bubble complex is a mess and not something we should be looking at as a how-to either; if anything, it's an example of how Nintendo really doesn't know or care what it wants when it comes to enemy names and designs sometimes, which is exactly why we ''need'' to be able to look at the all the facts and decide for ourselves which names have the right idea in order to try and present the inconsistent information most effectively for navigation and comprehension. There are plenty of cases where the Japanese names are right and plenty of cases where they are wrong, same with English, and same with all the other languages, and to say the Japanese should always take precedent will undermine the methodology behind countless splits and merges over the years and sets a disconcertingly restrictive precedent for future debates. The Koopa Troopas have no name change in any language accompanying the periodically reversed switch from 2-legged to 4-legged portrayals, and either way, splitting that information would do more harm than good for organization and reader comprehension given how ubiquitous the species is in either form (same reason the different shell colours don't get split), but that situation ''is not comparable'' to this one. There is no harm done by documenting Para-Beetles and their RPG-only cousins separately: I see very little reason to bend over backwards to merge it when the information being split makes perfects sense and the separate English name means potential search traffic.
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} Honestly i'm uncomfortable with merging all these articles based on Japanese names when they have different appearances.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per all.
#{{User|Magikrazy}} Just because they have the same name doesn't mean they're the same. They have very different appearances, and they do different things. This isn't simply Bill Blasters being destructible or not. One is an enemy, one is a platform. Per Walkazo.
#{{User|Burningdragon25}} Per everyone!
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per all.
#{{User|ShyGuy8}} There's no reason to Merge them because the German an Japanese names says 'Para-Beetle'. I would say, don't merge them. Per All!
#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per Walkazo.

===Comments===
I don't see what Heavy Para-Beetles have to do with this? I don't see why it matters that Heavy Para-Beetles don't have a Buzzy Beetle equivalent, especially since [[Big Buzzy Beetle|it could be argued that they do in a sense]]. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 15:17, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
:Actually, I suppose if anything, having Big Parabuzzies as well as [[Heavy Para-Beetle]]s would be more argument in favour of merging if they existed (unless they were also very uniquely chubby or something). Sorry, dunno what I was thinking: that's what I get for being in a hurry and getting all frazzled by my laggy computer refusing to load any other pages... I'll fix that part of the vote, but I still stand by all my other points. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:11, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
::How is having legs in this case ''not'' RPG physics, though? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:47, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
:::I don't really have much to say about "thinking for ourselves" or the search traffic argument, but back when I took a neutral stance in the previous proposal out of concern for ''Sticker Star'' and ''Mario Maker'', I already went into detail on why I felt the lack of visible legs is basically irrelevant. To reiterate, the designs of Buzzy Beetle and its derivatives weren't even that consistent before the ''Paper Mario'' series started - depending on whether you were looking at sprites or artwork, they either had sunken heads and sinister eyes or exposed faces. Look at the ''Paper Mario'' pre-''Sticker Star'' designs compared to the classic ones - there was [[:File:SPM Buzzy Beetle Catch Card.png|clearly]] [[:File:18. Spike Top Card.PNG|an]] [[:File:20. Parabuzzy Card.PNG|attempt]] to weld those depictions across the board together, based on the usual [[:File:SMB3 Buzzy Beetle.PNG|Buzzy Beetle shell]], [[:File:Spike Artwork - Mario Clash.png|Spike Top legs from ''Mario Clash'']] (which, by the way, had '''[[:File:SpiketopSMW.gif|six]]''' legs in ''Super Mario World'', so where is the SMW physics debate?), and especially [[:File:SMB3 Parabeetle.jpg|Para-Beetle's snail-like head]]. As for why they were absent in ''Sticker Star'', it's likely that it's because the [[:File:BuzzybeetlePMSS.png|species]] [[:File:Spike Top.PNG|designs]] have instead become standardized over the previous RPG line in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' platformers (which unified [[:File:BuzzyBeetle NSMBWii.png|Buzzy Beetle]] and [[:File:SpikeTop NSMBWii.png|Spike Top]], but left out [[:File:Parabeetle Sprite.png|Para-Beetle]]). We know they're considered one in the same in Japanese products (hence why they're both simply referred to as flying, winged Beetles in the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' manual and the ''Paper Mario'' series descriptions), so as the designers were [http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/2 probably mandated] to use the modern designs, it would've looked awkward if they used the current Para-Beetle design with hidden/no legs and suddenly have them grow as they landed. As for that supposed cameo in ''The Thousand-Year Door'' - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgpqSymgheQ&t=2m the fountain is in an obviously ruined state like much of the underground architecture,] so we cannot reasonably conclude if it actually doesn't/didn't have Parabuzzy-style legs (if anything, the seemingly intact curves on their shells would indicate that the crumbling statues still depict the ''Paper Mario'' incarnation). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:00, 9 May 2015 (EDT)
Binarystep, I don't really understand your fact. You're going with two completely different arguments. You want us to merge [[Parabuzzy]] and [[Para-Beetle]], because they have the same japanese names. So you want us to go with the Japanese version. For [[Kamek]] and [[Magikoopa]], you do not want, because one is a species and the other is a character. Kamek and Magikoopa are both named Kamek in the Japanese version. You break your own arguments--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 21:10, 9 May 2015 (EDT).

I looked into some playthrough videos earlier, and according to the enemy names of ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' and level names of "Flight of the Para-Beetle" and "Para-Beetle Parade" in ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' and ''New Super Luigi U'' respectively, Para-Beetle and Parabuzzy not only share their names in the Japanese and German versions, but also Spanish and Italian as well (admittedly, I was unable to directly see if the French translations use the same word for Para-Beetle as they do Parabuzzy, but I think it's at least a somewhat safe assumption going by [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koopa_Troopa some] [http://fr.mario.wikia.com/wiki/Parabruyinsecte circles]). This is now a case where the English version is the clear odd one out. (&@LudwigVon: even if it wasn't, the situation isn't that comparable - Kamek/Magikoopa have been depicted as both a single character and an enemy variety regardless of naming, whereas Para-Beetle/Parabuzzy have been described as basically the same thing, but merely suit a different gameplay role.)

On a side note, Spiky Parabuzzy is pretty much unanimously known as Para Spike Top in other languages as well. This situation would be as if basic winged Spike Tops returned in ''Mario Maker'' or some other game, but because they wouldn't be able lose their wings due to traditional platformer mechanics, they're suddenly a totally different species.

To wrap it up, if one accepts the following:
*That the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' instruction manual and ''Paper Mario'' in-game descriptions both generically refer to this enemy as a flying, winged Beetle, meaning there is no official written material we know of which distinguishes the two like we do.
*That '''all''' known foreign names for Para-Beetle actually match Parabuzzy, and the ''English'' name is the anomaly here (possibly even a result of partially conserving character limits on TTYD's battle text menu in localization, hence all the abbreviations).
*That the TTYD fountain is inconclusive and cannot conveniently be used as evidence to keep Para-Beetles separate (unless we continue to brush off the general state of decay and go as far as to say the decrepit statues represent an unseen zombie sub-species).
*That the presence of legs ''is'' a quirky aesthetic consequence of the earlier uniform ''Paper Mario'' design (basically, what I've concluded before; it must be noted that Parabuzzies in ''either'' game '''do not''' even ''use'' their coveted limbs until ''after'' their wings are clipped in battle, making the genre-specific transition from Parabuzzy to Buzzy Beetle appear visually seamless - aka "RPG physics").

And the only remaining arguments in favor of segregation are:
*wiki-related
*''Mario Maker'' <sub>(upcoming & implicit / possible)</sub>

...Then, since the primary argument against it seems to be the first one along with a differing outlook on what constitutes ''Paper Mario'' mechanics, why not have the article drop that pretense and write off Parabuzzy as something akin to "the ''Paper Mario'' series version of Para-Beetles" rather than as an entirely different sub-species? Anyway, if this fails and Binarystep or whomever still wants to retry this proposal, I'd really recommend just waiting until after ''Mario Maker'' is released. That way, all <sub>potentially</sub> relevant facts are out and can be fully scrutinized. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:00, 11 May 2015 (EDT)

:The no legs thing is also a remaining argument for those of us who ''don't'' "accept" that it's quirky aesthetics or "RPG physics" and who ''do'' think it's enough to call it a separate species. Also, most things don't use their legs when they're flying, so that second half of the argument is a stretch. The "zombie" snort is unnecessarily dismissive: the TTYD fountain is missing chunks of wings and part of one of the beetle's heads, but neither of them have any remnants of limbs at all, and the ''PM'' games are full of references to enemies from other games, so it's not an unreasonable anti-merge argument at all. Just because most languages say one thing doesn't automatically make them right: these situations are not majority rules, and in some cases, we've split pages even without ''any'' names backing us, although it's better when we ''do'' have at least one name in agreement, and it's best when that name is English, as that avoids the need for identifiers, lends itself to gathering search traffic, and is familiar to most of our readership. An on that note, wiki-related reasons ''should'' always be a factor in these discussions, and there's nothing wrong with being more meticulous about our coverage than Nintendo is about its own documentation: their job is about entertainment, but ours is about information, and if we were as vague and loose as they are half the time, this place would be a mess. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 12:00, 11 May 2015 (EDT)
::I don't see how a ''fountain that serves no purpose other than background decoration'' is serious evidence of Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies being different species, and not, say, a minor reference to ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. The ''Paper Mario'' series has a lot of small references and cameos, but I wouldn't treat those as proof of anything any more than I'd treat the small Bloopers in the Bowser segments as proof we should make a "Blooper (''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'')" page. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 19:33, 11 May 2015 (EDT)

:There wouldn't be even any known remnants of leg pieces in the statues if they've fallen off since their small appendages come from ''underneath'' the shell, so any blemishes simply wouldn't be visible from our side view. The fountain is, at best, a way to set the mood in Rogueport's crusty atmosphere: it doesn't necessarily ''have'' to be a reference, and if it ''is'', it's a rather poor one to use in such a significant capacity. Anyway, I've went into extensive detail above on the how's and why's the legs as part of the game design would certainly objectively be considered "RPG physics" (as we've termed it), so it's only fair that the opposition does the same, otherwise it comes across to me as mostly intuition-driven. (As for saying that it's normal for winged animals to not use their legs in flight - how does this in any way relate to gameplay and the rationale for separately functioning enemy species? If anything, that has absolutely no affect on it as an aesthetic to demonstrate a stronger connection for something described as a "winged Buzzy") On that note, I don't think we've even ''seen'' a Para-Beetle's underbelly in legit normal gameplay, save for the overweight Heavy Para-Beetle - how do we know their legs are not normally just comfortably tucked up?

:I know it hasn't been brought up yet, but if anyone's thinking of factoring ''Mario Maker'' this early on, I tentatively refer to what Binarystep said about it, and would also like to add that, judging from videos in development, it's going to contain different "physics" from various species appearances (example: notice that Big Goombas will be splitting off in multiple Goombas in classic mode despite this being a modern thing). Besides, the idea of the ''Paper Mario'' and ''Mario Maker'' depictions of "Buzzy Beetles with wings" is obviously to keep consistency with the other "Para" enemy types - ''Paper Mario'' I've already elaborated on, and ''Mario Maker'' is a creation tool where wings will be applied most anywhere (and we're already debating whether or not to include made-up enemies in separate articles).

:The naming itself is not normally a majority rules thing, but when there's only ''one'' language that made the name change, and ''all'' that language's official descriptions reflect the indicated intent anyway and just call them Buzzy Beetles with wings, something is definitely a little bit off. If wiki-related matters are the main reason, again: ''why'' are we pretending this is an completely separate species when all the statements and observations would surely be ample evidence otherwise? ''That'' isn't "no harm" in the current articles. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:59, 19 May 2015 (EDT)

== Final Thoughts ==

Since the most recent proposal failed, I'd like to ask the people who voted against it a few questions, mainly:

''How is having legs/not having legs more of a difference than having four legs/[[Spike Top#Super Mario World|having six legs]]?''

I feel that we put too much focus on the "no legs" point while ignoring how inconsistently most enemies have been depicted throughout the series, which makes it pretty difficult to impose a standard of what counts as the "normal" depiction.

On another note, Parabuzzies having legs is the exact definition of RPG physics, because if they didn't have legs, it would be ''logically impossible'' for them to change into Buzzy Beetles when landing, and doing otherwise would likely confuse players considering the established pattern with other "winged X" enemies. And yes, they ''could have'' appeared as platforms to go from one area to another, but relying on a theoretical situation like that is highly illogical. One could argue ''Paper Mario'' series Bill Blasters should be split for the same reasons we're keeping Parabuzzies and Para-Beetles split: One is a double-ended indestructible obstacle, and the other is a single-ended semi-weak enemy, and as ''Sticker Star'' demonstrated, they "could have been" like the platformer depictions in the first three games, but they weren't. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:08, 21 May 2015 (EDT)
:The argument's dead. Neither side is going to budge, and unless new info comes in, it's gonna stay that way. We can sit here and debate for the rest of our wiki days, or we can cut our losses and work on other things. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::I never claimed I was trying to convince anyone to change their minds, I just want to know their reasoning for this. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:17, 21 May 2015 (EDT)
:::Their reasoning is the pile of words that have opposed the last three proposals. It's all up there. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::::Specifically, I want to know why this is more of a difference than the various other redesigns that have happened throughout the series. The only difference between this redesign and the others is that this one also comes with a different English name. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:28, 21 May 2015 (EDT)
:::::I think the different name is a big factor, along with the legs (even though you keep brushing it off as RPG physics), and the fact that these turn into Buzzy Beetles while Parabeetles don't. Parabeetles were and still are pretty obscure enemies, so why would they appear in Paper Mario? --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 21:38, 21 May 2015 (EDT)
::::::The different name ''would'' be a pretty big factor (though the fact that it's the odd one out of '''''every''''' other version is a bit suspect). As for the obscurity, a lot of obscure things returned in the ''Paper Mario'' series (just look at [[Bandit]]s, [[Fuzzy|Fuzzies]], or [[Little Mouser]]s). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 21:57, 21 May 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Bandits and Little Mousers weren't really that obscure because Yoshi's Island was still quite recent. Anyway, it's obvious those are the same things, while Parabeetles and Parabuzzies have several distinct differences. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 19:52, 25 May 2015 (EDT)
:For the 6-legs thing specifically (since I'm not gonna repeating myself about the other stuff ''again''), seeing as how vastly different the sprites of Bowser and the Koopalings were to the manual's artwork, I feel like the Spike Top ''SMW'' sprite should be viewed with a grain of salt too. Especially since [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EmBI-hstDTA/UQ9QEQcQCcI/AAAAAAAAMrU/RNgsNXODoMQ/s1600/super-mario-world-pixel-2.jpg the spite of them cornering], to me, looks like 2-legs (with the 3rd being the far-side's hind foot). Sadly, there is no ''SMW'' artwork to corroborate the idea, although if we could track down the depiction in ''[[Dinosaur Dilemma]]'', that'd be the next best thing. Instead, we ''do'' have 4-legged [[:File:Spike Artwork - Mario Clash.png|''Mario Clash'' artwork]] and sprites from 5 years later, and 5 years after that, ''Paper Mario'' also gave them 4 legs, and so has every game since. Meanwhile, Parabuzzies are consistently legged and Para-Beetles are consistently legless, and it's not due to sprite-limitations as both appear in 64+ bit games (and there's no sprite-artwork discrepancies either, when applicable). I feel like early installation sprite-limitation-caused weirdness isn't a strong enough case to split the ''SMW'' Spike Tops, whereas this split has plenty of arguments going for it, as has been demonstrated many times. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:03, 22 May 2015 (EDT)
::Alright, I can see your point about Spike Tops (though I disagree with the interpretation of the corner sprite having 4 legs), but I still feel that we shouldn't completely disregard the concept of "RPG physics" as hearsay. I'm not sure if I explained it very well, but RPG physics ''is'' a real concept, responsible for things like [[Goomba|enemies only]] [[Fuzzy|doing contact]] [[Blooper|damage gaining]] [[Shy Guy|real attacks]], [[Lava Bubble|obstacles suddenly]] [[Bill Blaster|becoming enemies, or being able to be damaged]] [[Whomp|in ways they usually can't]], all of which are reasons Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies are still split. Considering this, the English localization being the ''only'' one so far to call Parabuzzies a seperate species (I will admit people make mistakes, but I don't think we should act like ''everyone'' except North America got it wrong), and the fact that it's highly possible Intelligent Systems just wanted to put a unique spin on the enemy design (which they've done with [[Blooper|several]] [[Buzzy Beetle|different]] [[Spike Top|enemies]] [[Boo|before]]), I find it a bad idea to immediately dismiss them as "obviously different enemies". Though I would find it a good idea to revisit this after ''Mario Maker'''s release to see how that game treats the issue. <sub>Sorry if this ends up long and incomprehensible, I'm way too tired to debate right now.</sub> [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 22:30, 22 May 2015 (EDT)
::As for search traffic, it appears we're one of the few places to call Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies seperate things, so I don't think we'd lose much. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:47, 25 May 2015 (EDT)
:::On the contrary, that means that anyone that searches "Parabuzzy" will get funnelled straight to us if there's minimal other options. Same reason why splitting list pages is a good idea too: more articles so suck specifics-searching folks in. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:06, 25 May 2015 (EDT)
::::Okay, I can see what you mean. Anyway, back to my original point, how likely is it that literally ''every'' language except English (so far, Japansese, Spanish, French, German, and Italian) would make the exact same "mistake"? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 19:10, 25 May 2015 (EDT)
:::::To be completely blunt, I haven't been keeping up with the discussion and I've got a '''major''' headache, but I'm going to bring up [[Gritty Goomba]] and point out that the names of the two variants are the same across ''all'' languages. However, the community has collectively decided that the two Goombas have enough distinct characteristics that they shouldn't be in the same article. So... maybe we can just throw the names out of a window and look at all the other stuff that's been mentioned? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::::::The thing is, those two Gritty Goombas appear in the same game, Para-Beetles/Parabuzzies don't (with the exception of a very minor cameo). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 19:25, 25 May 2015 (EDT)
Update - the "Parabuzzies" in ''Super Mario Maker'' act just like Para-Beetles, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIg42RWVmZY&t=1m23s as seen here.] [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:40, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
:Huh. That's interesting. Pretty sure that proves my point, at least partially. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:22, 24 July 2015 (EDT)
::Wouldn't that just mean the [[Parabuzzy]] article gets an expansion rather than [[Para-Beetle]]? I don't know their behavior for sure either. Do they fly up like Para-Beetles, because it's hard to tell either way? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:39, 24 July 2015 (EDT)
:::It's a little hard to tell at this point since we're only going on footage, but we already know the Nintendo World Championships 2015 courses are going to be in the final build and so far the Parabuzzy lookalike acts identically to Para-Beetle. At this point, it could just be a "''Super Mario World''"-style design or behavior that might not carry over to the other graphics. There's also a chance of a Parabuzzy and Para-Beetle meeting or referencing each other as a joke now that ''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam'' was announced. Overall, though, the platformer/RPG physics argument can't be ignored if this is indeed what it looks like. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:36, 24 July 2015 (EDT)
Personal opinion, I don't think Super Mario Maker is really the best game to look for official proof of this whole Parabuzzy thing, especially since you can slap wings onto just about anything in the game. Also I'd have to agree with Bazooka Mario here and Baby Luigi's comments in a [[Talk:Super Mario Maker#Proposal: what to do about all those sub-enemies?|past proposal]]; these winged/stacked enemies will just get put into the original's articles anyway. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:[[Talk:Super Mario Maker#Proposal: Articles for Para-Enemies|Premature proposals aside]], sticking wings on a Goomba or Koopa Troopa clearly makes them a Paragoomba and Koopa Paratroopa, not "Goomba + wings" and "Koopa Troopa + wings" etc. These proposals are mainly addressing the new enemies which don't have existing equivalents, and "Buzzy Beetle + wings" already has <nowiki>'</nowiki>''two''<nowiki>'</nowiki> (visually one and functionally the other). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:11, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

== ''Super Mario Maker'' ==

So, are the winged Buzzy Beetles in ''[[Super Mario Maker]]'' considered Para-Beetles or Parabuzzies? (Hopefully this doesn't count as beating a dead horse, I just wanted to bring this up since ''SMM'' was mentioned so many times before.) [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 01:21, 10 September 2015 (EDT)
:Most likely more closely-related to Para-Buzzies (I still think Para-Beetles are their own thing due to their different facial features and overall morphology, but Nintendo could be weirdos too). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:01, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

:Considering both enemies are the same enemies but with different English translations, then yes, they're Para-Beetles, and so are these. Note that this applies to tons of other enemies on the wiki and I have no idea why this one is special or why there's even had to be a big discussion about it. Same Japanese name = same enemy, it's not a hard rule to follow most of the time. Enemy appearances change over time and in different games so the fact that it is blue and has legs is pretty much entirely irrelevant when you're dealing with a series where they can't even decide what colour Larry and Iggy's shells are. If you think the visual differences are weird here, you should go check out what the Boomerang Bros. look like in the original Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga.

:Anyway, sticking wings on a Buzzy Beetle in Mario Maker makes it act pretty much (if not entirely) identical to a Para-Beetle. That and it's a Buzzy Beetle with wings, which is what a Para-Beetle always has been. Two different games translated it differently, happens all the time.

:Come to think of it, do any of the videos in the manual mention Para-Beetles? Might solve this issue if they do. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 12:05, 5 October 2015 (EDT)
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	:Come to think of it, do any of the videos in the manual mention Para-Beetles? Might solve this issue if they do. [[User:Fizzle\|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle\|talk]]) 12:05, 5 October 2015 (EDT)		:Come to think of it, do any of the videos in the manual mention Para-Beetles? Might solve this issue if they do. [[User:Fizzle\|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle\|talk]]) 12:05, 5 October 2015 (EDT)
	::I wouldn't say the Japanese name is ''always'' right (yeah, sort of changed my stance a little), though considering that ''every'' region calls Parabuzzies the same thing as Para-Beetles except for North America, this is almost certainly NOA screwing up. [[User:Niiue\|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue\|talk]]) 04:58, 15 December 2015 (EST)