Editing Talk:Paper Mario (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)

==Mentions==
Referencing the other games Paper Mario appeared in, even cursorily, ought to be at least mentioned, if not covered in great detail. Using only Paper Jam content makes it sound more like Paper Mario was created from wholecloth (metaphorically) than having been established prior. I liked how Anonymous added it, and was planning to do that myself. [[User:Phineas81707|Phineas81707]] ([[User talk:Phineas81707|talk]]) 21:24, 25 February 2016 (EST)

Well there's the "Mario was previously depicted as Paper Mario in the four Paper Mario series games." blurb at the beginning of the page, but it sounds strange and doesn't explain to the reader why the article is set up to only talk about Paper Jam (spoiler: it was a community vote.

I agree in that there should probably a blurb among the lines of "Mario was depicted in this form in the previous paper mario games but this article only deals about his appearance as an individual character in Paper Jam [because]. The Transformers Wiki frequently "talks to the reader" to explain its coverage decisions ([http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Toy#Toys_and_this_site for example]). Why can't we do that, again? --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 21:42, 25 February 2016 (EST)

:[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_44#Deal_with_the_duplicate_Paper_subjects_in_Mario_.26_Luigi:_Paper_Jam|The proposal about how to cover these subjects is here, btw]]. Basically, the previous ''Paper Mario''s were using the paper stuff as a style but it was still regular Mario, whereas  in ''M&L:PJ'', we now have a separate Paper Mario character interacting with regular Mario. This follows the same logic as [[Metal Mario (form)]] and [[Metal Mario (character)]]. It also avoids retroactively claiming the ''Paper Mario'' series was set in a pocket dimension paper world that didn't exist until the writing of ''M&L:PJ'', which is breaking policy against speculation and stringing games together into a cohesive narrative that doesn't actually exist. It's also the easiest yet still consistent way to deal with all the info from both ''M&L:PJ'' and all the ''Paper Mario'' games. For full explanations for all these points, see the proposal. Anyway, I rewrote the intro to make it a bit more clear how we're making a distinction, but without getting into a fourth-wall-breaking discussion of our policies or whatever. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 22:30, 25 February 2016 (EST)

== "But there is no indication that those games took place within the book" ==
Doesn't every ''Paper Mario'' game start off with a book? {{unsigned|Luigi86101}}
:One sign your comments with tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) and two, it said "the" book, not "a" book. The sentence was referring to that specific book in Paper Jam. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:49, 13 April 2016 (EDT)

Something opening up with a storybook style intro detailing a plot synopsis while making 4th wall humor or making a visual joke about paper or tape does not at all suggest that the world and characters in the game or story actually take place within a book in universe.  The Paper Mario games take no more place inside a storybook world than the Mario&Luigi games and the platforming and party series games do.  At most all it does is imply that we the players are being presented the game as if it were set in a storybook by the developers themselves ala several Disney movies and Don Bluth's Thumbelina.  Nothing however suggests that in the canon of the series in universe itself that the Paper Mario games take place in any other world or are less real world than the world of all the others games in the Mario series.

Paper Jam having a cast of Mario alternate universe characters who just so happen to live in a literal world of paper because of their dimension existing within a storybook does not retroactively make the previous Paper Mario games and their characters and settings not exist in the same universe/dimension as the 2D and 3D Mario platforming games and the Party game franchise.  Paper Mario itself has Luigi's Diary make specific mention to the Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, and Mario Kart games as well as has background setup for Luigi's Mansion as well as his future characterization as being cowardly and afraid of ghosts in later games.  That's a direct link and continuity nod between the Paper Mario games and the 3D games which proves that the Paper Mario games aren't a literal world of paper but just an art style that resembles paper that take place and exist within the normal Mario world.

It's all just an art style.  Paper Mario no more takes place in a different world made of paper not connected to the world of the 3D games than the 2D Mario games take place in a 2 dimensional sprite based world not connected to the world of the 3D games.  Paper Jam is the exception to the rule, not the standard and that's why this wiki doesn't treat them as the same character because they canonically aren't and each game has nothing in them implying they are. {{User|PaperMariofanforlife22457}} 12:28 AM 19 April 2016
:um, dude, you know we [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|reject canonicty arguments]], right? {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 02:33, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
:[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]] was in a book and is very similar to [[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]] so yeah, I personally think the entire [[Paper Mario (series)|series]] is inside the [[Paper Mario book|Book]]. [[User:Fawful's Minion|Fawful's]] [[User talk:Fawful's Minion|Minion]] [[File:Fawful's Minion-Logan.jpeg|35px|link=Fawful]] 19:57, 29 April 2016 (EDT)
:I actually think it is in the book because in the opening of both [[Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door]] and [[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]] the book appears in both my Paper Mario games (though I'm not sure about the other two.) {{User:Fawful's Minion/sig}} 05:40, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

== Fun fact for future reference ==

Actually, there ''is'' proof that the Paper Mario in the original games is meant to be the Mario. Goombario references the original Super Mario Bros. while tattling Goombas, and specifically says "They've been around since you were in Super Mario Bros.!", so clearly the Mario in the original game is the same as Mario in the main series. Goombella also mentions the Mario Bros. series itself when tattling Stewart. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 12:11, 26 April 2016 (EDT)

== Separate character ==

I think Nintendo has made it clear now that Paper Mario has always been a separate character from Mario, as well as the other paper characters. This page (and others) are seemingly saying that there are two Paper Marios, one who is the character in Paper Jam, and the other who is actually Mario. [[File:DarkBowserBIS.png|35px]][[User:DarkBowser777|<span style="font-family:serif;color:darkblue">DarkBowser777</span>]]([[User talk:DarkBowser777|talk]])[[File:Dreamy Bowser idle.png|35px]] 17:06, 14 March 2017 (EDT)

:Remember that is no real canon or continuity in the Mario franchise. [[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]] is the only game where Paper Mario has been explicitly stated to be a separate character, so that's the only game this article covers. <s>But if you really don't agree, you can make a [[MarioWiki:Proposals#Talk page proposals|proposal]] about it.</s> NVM, it says up there that there already was a vote to only cover Paper Jam.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 10:43, 15 March 2017 (EDT)


== Paper Mario's first official appearance ==
Paper Mario technically IS Mario, just an alternate universe version of him,  I think his first appearance should say "Paper Mario, 2000 (As Mario)"
@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 I agree in that there should probably a blurb among the lines of "Mario was depicted in this form in the previous paper mario games but this article only deals about his appearance as an individual character in Paper Jam [because]. The Transformers Wiki frequently "talks to the reader" to explain its coverage decisions ([http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Toy#Toys_and_this_site for example]). Why can't we do that, again? --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 21:42, 25 February 2016 (EST)
-:[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Deal_with_the_duplicate_Paper_subjects_in_Mario_.26_Luigi:_Paper_Jam|The proposal about how to cover these subjects is here, btw]]. Basically, the previous ''Paper Mario''s were using the paper stuff as a style but it was still regular Mario, whereas  in ''M&L:PJ'', we now have a separate Paper Mario character interacting with regular Mario. This follows the same logic as Metal Mario (form) and Metal Mario (character). It also avoids retroactively claiming the ''Paper Mario'' series was set in a pocket dimension paper world that didn't exist until the writing of ''M&L:PJ'', which is breaking policy against speculation and stringing games together into a cohesive narrative that doesn't actually exist. It's also the easiest yet still consistent way to deal with all the info from both ''M&L:PJ'' and all the ''Paper Mario'' games. For full explanations for all these points, see the proposal. Anyway, I rewrote the intro to make it a bit more clear how we're making a distinction, but without getting into a fourth-wall-breaking discussion of our policies or whatever. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 22:30, 25 February 2016 (EST)
+:[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_44#Deal_with_the_duplicate_Paper_subjects_in_Mario_.26_Luigi:_Paper_Jam|The proposal about how to cover these subjects is here, btw]]. Basically, the previous ''Paper Mario''s were using the paper stuff as a style but it was still regular Mario, whereas  in ''M&L:PJ'', we now have a separate Paper Mario character interacting with regular Mario. This follows the same logic as [[Metal Mario (form)]] and [[Metal Mario (character)]]. It also avoids retroactively claiming the ''Paper Mario'' series was set in a pocket dimension paper world that didn't exist until the writing of ''M&L:PJ'', which is breaking policy against speculation and stringing games together into a cohesive narrative that doesn't actually exist. It's also the easiest yet still consistent way to deal with all the info from both ''M&L:PJ'' and all the ''Paper Mario'' games. For full explanations for all these points, see the proposal. Anyway, I rewrote the intro to make it a bit more clear how we're making a distinction, but without getting into a fourth-wall-breaking discussion of our policies or whatever. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 22:30, 25 February 2016 (EST)
 == "But there is no indication that those games took place within the book" ==
@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 It's all just an art style.  Paper Mario no more takes place in a different world made of paper not connected to the world of the 3D games than the 2D Mario games take place in a 2 dimensional sprite based world not connected to the world of the 3D games.  Paper Jam is the exception to the rule, not the standard and that's why this wiki doesn't treat them as the same character because they canonically aren't and each game has nothing in them implying they are. {{User|PaperMariofanforlife22457}} 12:28 AM 19 April 2016
 :um, dude, you know we [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|reject canonicty arguments]], right? {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 02:33, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
-:[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]] was in a book and is very similar to [[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]] so yeah, I personally think the entire [[Paper Mario (series)|series]] is inside the [[Paper Mario book|Book]]. [[User:Fawful's Minion|Fawful's]] [[User talk:Fawful's Minion|Minion]] 19:57, 29 April 2016 (EDT)
+:[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]] was in a book and is very similar to [[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]] so yeah, I personally think the entire [[Paper Mario (series)|series]] is inside the [[Paper Mario book|Book]]. [[User:Fawful's Minion|Fawful's]] [[User talk:Fawful's Minion|Minion]] [[File:Fawful's Minion-Logan.jpeg|35px|link=Fawful]] 19:57, 29 April 2016 (EDT)
 :I actually think it is in the book because in the opening of both [[Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door]] and [[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]] the book appears in both my Paper Mario games (though I'm not sure about the other two.) {{User:Fawful's Minion/sig}} 05:40, 17 May 2016 (EDT)
-"Something opening up with a storybook style intro detailing a plot synopsis while making 4th wall humor or making a visual joke about paper or tape does not at all suggest that the world and characters in the game or story actually take place within a book in universe." Excuse me? I think it DOES, Paper Mario IS Mario in the Paper Mario series, case closed. [[User:MarioLover54|MarioLover54]] 2:51 PM 7/34/2019 (EST)
 == Fun fact for future reference ==
@@ Line 36: / Line 34: @@
 == Paper Mario's first official appearance ==
-Paper Mario technically IS Mario, just an alternate universe version of him,  I think his first appearance should say "Paper Mario, 2000 (As Mario)" {{unsigned|MarioLover54}}
+Paper Mario technically IS Mario, just an alternate universe version of him,  I think his first appearance should say "Paper Mario, 2000 (As Mario)"
-:This article only talks about the Paper Mario in ''Paper Jam'', as he's an independent character from Mario himself in the game as the opening paragraph states. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 20:34, April 2, 2019 (EDT)
-Paper Jam is the only game where it's even remotely implied that there is another universe of Mario characters.  It lacks any real references to any Paper Mario game except Sticker Star (Itself completely out of place with the original trilogy), and is more than likely not going to be an idea that will ever be revisited given the general reception of the game and the fact it's not really a good idea to begin with.
-The Paper Mario games are clearly built on the foundation and knowledge that they are the next adventure in the Mario series for the (At the time of creation) only Mario character in existance.  Paper Jam can't be used to retroactively say that those games are wrong when it's something that wasn't even made to make a story statement at all.
-At most it simply explains away the incompatibility of Sticker Star and the future Color Splash to the original trilogy by having them take place in a book while the original three are the main series Mario adventures.  More than likely it's not even saying that because it doesn't seem like it was made to make a statement about the storyline of the Mario Universe.
-{{unsigned|104.181.85.104}}
-::Paper Mario has always been an independent character from normal Mario {{User:MarioLover54/sig}} 2:45 PM June 22, 2019
-:::[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Deal with the duplicate Paper subjects in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam|Not really]]. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 16:56, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
-::You're not making this easy for me.  Okay, look at this way, Mario multiverse. Would inhabitants of the paper world put "Paper" in front of their names? No, because they're the only versions of themselves in that universe.  They may not know other universes with other versions of themselves exist [[User:MarioLover54|MarioLover54]] 9:17 AM 7/25/2019
-:::There is no canon or multiverse in the ''Mario'' franchise. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 09:33, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
-== The return of Paper Mario? ==
-The new ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' event in ''Super Mario Run'' features a new Mario statue named the "Paper Mario Statue" which also calls him "Paper Mario" in its description. Would make sense that they would need to differentiate Mainline Mario and Mario from the ''Paper Mario'' games, but still wondering if this would count as a cameo. {{User:KinokoBlast/sig}} 14:46, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
-== Super Smash Bros Ultimate ==
-Could we put Paper Mario's latest appearance as Super Smash Bros Ultimate as Paper Mario from The Mario and Luigi series appears in the spirit for Papercraft Mario.[[User:OngoingTalent13|OngoingTalent13]] ([[User talk:OngoingTalent13|talk]]) 15:12, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
-== Identifier change ==
-I've kind of gotten the idea from [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Standardize sound test page titles|this proposal]], but I feel to hopefully reduce general confusion in how this article is handled, the identifier should change from "character" to "''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam''", which should make it more clear that's what the article is about, since there have been a number of times readers have gone to this article expecting it to be about the entire ''Paper Mario'' series. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 06:56, August 27, 2024 (EDT)
-:I wonder why (character) was selected in the first place. Were game identifiers discouraged in this wiki at one point? Reviewing [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining_the_identifier]]. {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:45, January 17, 2025 (EST)
-:Yeah, makes sense to me. I think "(character)" was chosen simply because there was no other individual character article with the name, without taking into account Mario in the ''Paper Mario'' series. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 05:14, January 18, 2025 (EST)
-::Should I go ahead and move it to "Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam character" then? {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 20:20, January 19, 2025 (EST)
-:::I don't see why not. Go ahead! {{User:SolemnStormcloud/sig}} 20:22, January 19, 2025 (EST)
-:::Why not just "(''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam'')" like you suggested? {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 20:25, January 19, 2025 (EST)