Editing Talk:Panser
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==Merge with Volcano Lotus== | ==Merge with Volcano Lotus== | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
These two enemies have the same Japanese name and ultimately have very similar behavior. While they are divergent in appearance and behavior to an extent, I'd reckon they're more similar than different, being largely stationary flowers with similarly-shaped buds that repeatedly open their buds to shoot fireballs in an arc. It seems like the significant differences between these two are similar in scope to the redesign of [[Bob-omb]]s for ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' (which have a different Japanese name from the ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' version), [[Pokey]]s in ''[[Super Mario World]]'', or even [[Shy Guy]]s in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' (they ''look'' similar, but have very different behavior from ''Super Mario Bros. 2''). | These two enemies have the same Japanese name and ultimately have very similar behavior. While they are divergent in appearance and behavior to an extent, I'd reckon they're more similar than different, being largely stationary flowers with similarly-shaped buds that repeatedly open their buds to shoot fireballs in an arc. It seems like the significant differences between these two are similar in scope to the redesign of [[Bob-omb]]s for ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' (which have a different Japanese name from the ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' version), [[Pokey]]s in ''[[Super Mario World]]'', or even [[Shy Guy]]s in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' (they ''look'' similar, but have very different behavior from ''Super Mario Bros. 2''). | ||
I'd reckon that these are meant to be the same enemy with a somewhat revised design and behavior, and it seems likely (though this is speculation) that a Japanese player would see these two as the same enemy. I'm looking to cases like ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]''{{'}} [[Lava_Bubble#Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars|Sparky]] or ''Yoshi's Island''{{'}}s [[Spark#Super_Mario_World_2:_Yoshi.27s_Island_.2F_Yoshi.27s_Island:_Super_Mario_Advance_3|Piro Dangle]] as points of comparison; being enemies that changed only slightly in appearance and behavior between games but were given different names during localization, for one reason or another (and are now recognized as the same entity by the wiki). This appears to be a similar case at its core. | I'd reckon that these are meant to be the same enemy with a somewhat revised design and behavior, and it seems likely (though this is speculation) that a Japanese player would see these two as the same enemy. I'm looking to cases like ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]''{{'}} [[Lava_Bubble#Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars|Sparky]] or ''Yoshi's Island''{{'}}s [[Spark#Super_Mario_World_2:_Yoshi.27s_Island_.2F_Yoshi.27s_Island:_Super_Mario_Advance_3|Piro Dangle]] as points of comparison; being enemies that changed only slightly in appearance and behavior between games but were given different names during localization, for one reason or another (and are now recognized as the same entity by the wiki). This appears to be a similar case at its core. | ||
I will also add the information from Doc von Schmeltwick's vote and comment below, where they mentioned that these enemies are referred to as the same creature with a different form, {{ | I will also add the information from Doc von Schmeltwick's vote and comment below, where they mentioned that these enemies are referred to as the same creature with a different form, {{media link|SMBD page 50.png|linked here}}, as well as their contention that this article would probably already be merged in the (again admittedly hypothetical) scenario where these enemies had always had the same localized name. | ||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br> | ||
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===Support=== | ===Support=== | ||
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal. | #{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I think it's a bit early to propose this, but I want to point out that '''a)''' the red (basic) Panser has a near-identical attack pattern to Volcano Lotus, with the only difference being projectile size and speed; '''b)''' at least one Japanese guide has {{ | #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I think it's a bit early to propose this, but I want to point out that '''a)''' the red (basic) Panser has a near-identical attack pattern to Volcano Lotus, with the only difference being projectile size and speed; '''b)''' at least one Japanese guide has {{media link|SMBD page 50.png|explicitly listed them as the same creature in different forms}} (with the guide that listed them separately also listing "Sidestepper" and ''Mario Bros.'' "Crab" separately, among other oddities), '''c)''' SMW was the first game to start bringing back SMB2 enemies en masse (with the localizers seemingly missing the connection on this one), and '''d''' it making the relation to [[Lava Lotus]] and [[Wild Ptooie Piranha]] much less of a snarl to work through. '''Also)''' I want to ask this: had the localizers given them the same name, would we split them? | ||
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per proposal. | #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} I was inclined to oppose at first, but after reading the comments I'm convinced that this makes perfect sense. Per all. | #{{User|Hewer}} I was inclined to oppose at first, but after reading the comments I'm convinced that this makes perfect sense. Per all. | ||
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#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per Pseudo and Doc von Schmeltwick. | #{{User|PaperSplash}} Per Pseudo and Doc von Schmeltwick. | ||
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. | #{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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#Most importantly for this specific case, the [[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia|Perfect Ban Mario Daijiten]], an official Japanese Nintendo guide published by Shogakuken, ''actually lists Panser and Volcano Lotus as separate entries, despite having the exact same name there''. The descriptions are even different as well, with Volcano Lotus' titling it as a [[Lava Lotus]] on land, whereas Panser doesn't mention such relation. | #Most importantly for this specific case, the [[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia|Perfect Ban Mario Daijiten]], an official Japanese Nintendo guide published by Shogakuken, ''actually lists Panser and Volcano Lotus as separate entries, despite having the exact same name there''. The descriptions are even different as well, with Volcano Lotus' titling it as a [[Lava Lotus]] on land, whereas Panser doesn't mention such relation. | ||
This proposal hinges on the fact that the similar appearance and behavior, and most notably the exact same Japanese name, is evidence that Panser and Volcano Lotus were intended to be the same thing, but the Perfect Ban Mario Daijiten alone is evidence that Nintendo treats them as separate beings regardless of name and appearance. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:04, August 1, 2023 (EDT) | This proposal hinges on the fact that the similar appearance and behavior, and most notably the exact same Japanese name, is evidence that Panser and Volcano Lotus were intended to be the same thing, but the Perfect Ban Mario Daijiten alone is evidence that Nintendo treats them as separate beings regardless of name and appearance. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:04, August 1, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:The same book also separates [[Sidestepper|Sidestepper and Crab]], [[Fighter Fly|Fighter Fly, Firefly, and Fly]], [[Bee Fly|B-Fly and Bē]], and [[Spark|Spark and Spack]], and merges [[Fireball (Donkey Kong)|Drum Fire]] and [[Fire (100m)|Fire]] for arcade DK but separates them for Game Boy DK. {{ | :The same book also separates [[Sidestepper|Sidestepper and Crab]], [[Fighter Fly|Fighter Fly, Firefly, and Fly]], [[Bee Fly|B-Fly and Bē]], and [[Spark|Spark and Spack]], and merges [[Fireball (Donkey Kong)|Drum Fire]] and [[Fire (100m)|Fire]] for arcade DK but separates them for Game Boy DK. {{media link|SMBD page 50.png|Another book by the same group merges them}}, simply saying they look different between games as an in-universe divergence in evolution (which modern concepts of redesigning renders as something of an artifact). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:30, August 1, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Another counterpoint alongside Doc's comment regarding your first point, Arend: Bob-ombs, which the wiki considers to be the same enemy between ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' and ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', have two variations in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', only one of which (the tank variety, which only appears late in the game, long after the wind-up variety) behaves the same as the Bob-ombs in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', yet we consider these to be the same enemy nonetheless owing to their similar (but not identical, much like the Panser and Volcano Lotus) appearances and behavior between games. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:24, August 1, 2023 (EDT) | :Another counterpoint alongside Doc's comment regarding your first point, Arend: Bob-ombs, which the wiki considers to be the same enemy between ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' and ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', have two variations in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', only one of which (the tank variety, which only appears late in the game, long after the wind-up variety) behaves the same as the Bob-ombs in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', yet we consider these to be the same enemy nonetheless owing to their similar (but not identical, much like the Panser and Volcano Lotus) appearances and behavior between games. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:24, August 1, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:: It should be noted however, the Pansers have separate Japanese names for each color and multiple proposals have failed despite the same Japanese name. Just look at Froggy/Frog Pirate for instance. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:06, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | :: It should be noted however, the Pansers have separate Japanese names for each color and multiple proposals have failed despite the same Japanese name. Just look at Froggy/Frog Pirate for instance. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:06, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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::::Uh, isn't that a point in the proposal's favour, if anything? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:24, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::Uh, isn't that a point in the proposal's favour, if anything? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:24, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::"''the Pansers have separate Japanese names for each color''" - those are parenthesis identifiers, which were used for all color variations in SMB2. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 13:42, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | :::"''the Pansers have separate Japanese names for each color''" - those are parenthesis identifiers, which were used for all color variations in SMB2. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 13:42, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
@FanOfYoshi: How I see it, Bubble Dayzee is a different situation due to being a variant that co-exists with its parent species in the same game. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:05, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | @FanOfYoshi: How I see it, Bubble Dayzee is a different situation due to being a variant that co-exists with its parent species in the same game. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:05, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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Abstaining for now, because of one detail: the same guide that gives the Volcano Lotus a name in Japanese also states the enemy to be a derivative of ''Super Mario Bros. 3''{{'}}s [[Lava Lotus]] enemy... which debuted after Panser. Of course, that statement in itself wouldn't pre-empt a merge here on the wiki, but you'd think the guide recognising a thing introduced in a past game would have the diligence to make a more explicit connection to the supposed true origin of Volcano Lotus. In any case, though, is there any confirmation that this guide was directly supervised by Nintendo's creative team? Because it being from the same country doesn't mean it constitutes creator's intent and all that. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:36, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | Abstaining for now, because of one detail: the same guide that gives the Volcano Lotus a name in Japanese also states the enemy to be a derivative of ''Super Mario Bros. 3''{{'}}s [[Lava Lotus]] enemy... which debuted after Panser. Of course, that statement in itself wouldn't pre-empt a merge here on the wiki, but you'd think the guide recognising a thing introduced in a past game would have the diligence to make a more explicit connection to the supposed true origin of Volcano Lotus. In any case, though, is there any confirmation that this guide was directly supervised by Nintendo's creative team? Because it being from the same country doesn't mean it constitutes creator's intent and all that. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:36, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:Pretty sure Mister Wu said it is, but you may want to ask him yourself. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:41, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | :Pretty sure Mister Wu said it is, but you may want to ask him yourself. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:41, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
