Editing Talk:Panser

==Merge with Volcano Lotus==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|9-16|DO NOT MERGE}}
These two enemies have the same Japanese name and ultimately have very similar behavior. While they are divergent in appearance and behavior to an extent, I'd reckon they're more similar than different, being largely stationary flowers with similarly-shaped buds that repeatedly open their buds to shoot fireballs in an arc. It seems like the significant differences between these two are similar in scope to the redesign of [[Bob-omb]]s for ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' (which have a different Japanese name from the ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' version), [[Pokey]]s in ''[[Super Mario World]]'',  or even [[Shy Guy]]s in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' (they ''look'' similar, but have very different behavior from ''Super Mario Bros. 2'').

I'd reckon that these are meant to be the same enemy with a somewhat revised design and behavior, and it seems likely (though this is speculation) that a Japanese player would see these two as the same enemy. I'm looking to cases like ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]''{{'}} [[Lava_Bubble#Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars|Sparky]] or ''Yoshi's Island''{{'}}s [[Spark#Super_Mario_World_2:_Yoshi.27s_Island_.2F_Yoshi.27s_Island:_Super_Mario_Advance_3|Piro Dangle]] as points of comparison; being enemies that changed only slightly in appearance and behavior between games but were given different names during localization, for one reason or another (and are now recognized as the same entity by the wiki). This appears to be a similar case at its core.

I will also add the information from Doc von Schmeltwick's vote and comment below, where they mentioned that these enemies are referred to as the same creature with a different form, {{file link|SMBD page 50.png|linked here}}, as well as their contention that this article would probably already be merged in the (again admittedly hypothetical) scenario where these enemies had always had the same localized name.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 15, 2023, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I think it's a bit early to propose this, but I want to point out that '''a)''' the red (basic) Panser has a near-identical attack pattern to Volcano Lotus, with the only difference being projectile size and speed; '''b)''' at least one Japanese guide has {{file link|SMBD page 50.png|explicitly listed them as the same creature in different forms}} (with the guide that listed them separately also listing "Sidestepper" and ''Mario Bros.'' "Crab" separately, among other oddities), '''c)''' SMW was the first game to start bringing back SMB2 enemies en masse (with the localizers seemingly missing the connection on this one), and '''d)''' it making the relation to [[Lava Lotus]] and [[Wild Ptooie Piranha]] much less of a snarl to work through. '''Also)''' I want to ask this: had the localizers given them the same name, would we split them?
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} I was inclined to oppose at first, but after reading the comments I'm convinced that this makes perfect sense. Per all.
#{{User|Somethingone}} I agree with Hewer on this one; was going to oppose, but the comments made me agree.
#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per Pseudo and Doc von Schmeltwick.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per doc
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Messiness is unavoidable, and I agree that it's a little too soon for this proposal. The reason I lean towards a merge right now is precisely because of Wild Ptooie Piranha. It's a hybrid of Piranha Plant and either Panser or Volcano Lotus - but which one? ''We don't know.'' The split creates an unsatisfactory situation where it is derived from neither, and we have no choice but to put Panser and Volcano Lotus perpetually in the "relatives" shelf in the infobox. Merging makes this relation much cleaner and more straightforward. If it weren't for that particular uncertainty, I would be neutral, though.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Axis}} Different enemies with different names and different behavior. They are related, but they are different enemies.
#{{User|Arend}} No; See comments.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per Arend's comment
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Axis and Arend.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. Even on my own, i do not think they should be merged. Also, given how my proposal for/attempts to merge Bubble Dayzee failed twice, i don't see how this is any different.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Nope. They look and act completely differently and even the Pansers have different Japanese names.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Arend.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} Ribbit.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Oink oink.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} Per PrincessPeachFan.

===Comments===
Axis, the whole point of this proposal is that they ''don't'' have different Japanese names, so I would question why you're bringing that up in your vote... Wiki precedent is that Japanese names take precedent in these scenarios, or else Sparky and Piro Dangle wouldn't be merged. {{User:Pseudo/sig}}

There's several reasons why I oppose this:
#There's three variants of Panser, differentiated by petal color: one remains stationary, another can move around and the third chases the player. In contrast, Volcano Lotus can only remain stationary.
#Volcano Lotus look much different, being bigger and having no face. Contrast that to other Subcon enemies that made it to the Koopa Troop, Ninji and Pokey, whose official artwork for ''World'' at least match with that of ''Super Mario USA''. 
#Most importantly for this specific case, the [[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia|Perfect Ban Mario Daijiten]], an official Japanese Nintendo guide published by Shogakuken, ''actually lists Panser and Volcano Lotus as separate entries, despite having the exact same name there''. The descriptions are even different as well, with Volcano Lotus' titling it as a [[Lava Lotus]] on land, whereas Panser doesn't mention such relation.
This proposal hinges on the fact that the similar appearance and behavior, and most notably the exact same Japanese name, is evidence that Panser and Volcano Lotus were intended to be the same thing, but the Perfect Ban Mario Daijiten alone is evidence that Nintendo treats them as separate beings regardless of name and appearance. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:04, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
:The same book also separates [[Sidestepper|Sidestepper and Crab]], [[Fighter Fly|Fighter Fly, Firefly, and Fly]], [[Bee Fly|B-Fly and Bē]], and [[Spark|Spark and Spack]], and merges [[Fireball (Donkey Kong)|Drum Fire]] and [[Fire (100m)|Fire]] for arcade DK but separates them for Game Boy DK. {{file link|SMBD page 50.png|Another book by the same group merges them}}, simply saying they look different between games as an in-universe divergence in evolution (which modern concepts of redesigning renders as something of an artifact). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:30, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
::That other book is by Kodansha, not Shogakukan. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:44, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
:::Considering Kodansha also made a licensed manga series for Mario, I'm inclined to believe it too is official. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:17, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
::::Is speculation all you've really got on that? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:29, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
:::::Considering we've been using it for official evidence already and it was approved by Mister Wu, who is our most knowledgeable on that subject considering the amount he has and knowledge of their history and copyright status, I think "speculation" is a strongly negative word here. No, I can't pull the exact copyright information for that book out of thin air, but there's more than enough evidence to indicate they are reliable (shogakukan didn't have as much of a monopoly until midway through the N64 era, if I recall correctly). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:04, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
::::::[[User talk:Mister Wu#Non-Kōshiki Japanese guides|Don't worry, he confirmed it a while back.]] [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:37, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
:::::::Well thanks a lot LTL, now I don't have to dare Doc to find it on his own to confirm his speculation. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 10:49, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
:Another counterpoint alongside Doc's comment regarding your first point, Arend: Bob-ombs, which the wiki considers to be the same enemy between ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' and ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', have two variations in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', only one of which (the tank variety, which only appears late in the game, long after the wind-up variety) behaves the same as the Bob-ombs in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', yet we consider these to be the same enemy nonetheless owing to their similar (but not identical, much like the Panser and Volcano Lotus) appearances and behavior between games. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:24, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
:: It should be noted however, the Pansers have separate Japanese names for each color and multiple proposals have failed despite the same Japanese name. Just look at Froggy/Frog Pirate for instance. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:06, August 2, 2023 (EDT)
::: And besides, we merged Frost and Ice Pirahna Plants because Mario Portal calls the latter Frost Pirahnas despite the different looks and attacks. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:06, August 2, 2023 (EDT)
::::Uh, isn't that a point in the proposal's favour, if anything? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:24, August 2, 2023 (EDT)
:::"''the Pansers have separate Japanese names for each color''" - those are parenthesis identifiers, which were used for all color variations in SMB2. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 13:42, August 2, 2023 (EDT)
::::Bob-ombs, by the way, being another one of ''Perfect'''s odd [https://imgur.com/ZMDYJm4 name-splits], even though [[Bob-omb#Super Mario Bros. 2|some]] [[User talk:Mister Wu/30th Anniversary Books Related Questions/Archive 1#Super Mario Pia|sources]] do consider it the same thing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:37, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

@FanOfYoshi: How I see it, Bubble Dayzee is a different situation due to being a variant that co-exists with its parent species in the same game. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:05, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Abstaining for now, because of one detail: the same guide that gives the Volcano Lotus a name in Japanese also states the enemy to be a derivative of ''Super Mario Bros. 3''{{'}}s [[Lava Lotus]] enemy... which debuted after Panser. Of course, that statement in itself wouldn't pre-empt a merge here on the wiki, but you'd think the guide recognising a thing introduced in a past game would have the diligence to make a more explicit connection to the supposed true origin of Volcano Lotus. In any case, though, is there any confirmation that this guide was directly supervised by Nintendo's creative team? Because it being from the same country doesn't mean it constitutes creator's intent and all that. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:36, August 2, 2023 (EDT)
:Pretty sure Mister Wu said it is, but you may want to ask him yourself. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:41, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

: Now one thing about the Japanese stuff is that they have a tendency to give the same Japanese names to different species, e.g. Thwomp Block from Donkey Kong '94 and Broozers. Does that mean we merge them? No, it just means they have the same names because of the same concept or something but are otherwise completely separate. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:54, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
::I sincerely doubt they just ''happened'' to give a fireball-spitting upward-facing giant flower enemy the same very specific pun name in two games of the same series released only five years apart by the same development team, the latter game also bringing back several other enemies straight from the former game (Pokey, Ninji, Pidgit...) While yes, some entities do share names in the language-of-origin, those usually have nothing in common, are from games released many years apart, and are by completely different teams. I also want to point out that V. Lotus is named not by a guide, but by the game's ending sequence... meaning the games actual development team knowingly named it Ponkey, after the SMUSA enemy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:00, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
:::The same can also be said regarding Panser’s name in Doki Doki Panic/SMB2 since that game also has an enemy list in its ending sequence. Both enemies (or both appearances of the same enemy, as the case seems to be) were given the same name by the developers themselves, not just a guide. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 14:17, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
::::Actually, Doki Doki Panic [https://youtu.be/S0l9DlAboIQ did not have them], while SMUSA [https://youtu.be/qwh-jhnjA8c still uses the English names]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:26, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
:::::Ah, thanks for the clarification, my apologies then. Still, your point stands. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 17:20, August 3, 2023 (EDT)
::::::For the record, Panser's Japanese name goes as far back as the ''[https://www.gamingalexandria.com/fds/Doki%20Doki%20Panic/Doki%20Doki%20Panic%20-%20Manual.pdf Doki Doki Panic]'' manual - ''Super Mario USA'' was specifically [[:File:SMB2 USA - Box Reverse.jpg|known]] as the "American" ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' in Japan (releasing after ''Super Mario Bros. 3'') and so used English names/transliterations, [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clv/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-HAADJ.pdf seen] [https://imgur.com/lVHkZlH here] (and this reminds me that maybe something should still be done about [[Talk:Kurasshā|Kurasshā]] sometime). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:37, August 3, 2023 (EDT)