Editing Talk:Nipper Dandelion

::::::::::::::::::If [[Comet Luma|Comet Tico]], [[Petapeta]], [[Tongari]], [[Jump Beamer]] (which should have an another language template since its internal filename is romanized), [[Pattan]] and [[Big Green Caterpillar]] had spirits and were respectively named "Lumacomète", "Starbag", "Spiny Hermit", "Sentry Beam", which is the same name as the mobile one, "Whimp" and "Worm", would we be using these names? No! Why? Because they're copied from us! --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:32, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

::::::We have [[Ghost (Piranha Plant)|two]] (possibly [[Fire Nipper Plant|three]]) instances of the same guidance sharing suspect info with us, so it's safe to say that the translator looked us up (I'd guess because the downloadable content is ultimately more an afterthought for the game localization). And honestly, I would be open to revising the text on the another language and conjectural title templates because [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|these]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Citing the Super Mario Encyclopedia|proposals]] mean that it is no longer absolutely paramount to do so. You're putting way too much stock is put into ''where'' this name is being used. I don't think it being in-game means that we should automatically give them a pass; if anything, it should be even ''more'' egregious. And if we're speculating about future name usage, how about this: what if Nintendo silently revises the guidance during a version update to avoid the use of fanmade material ([[tcrf:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate/Version Differences#Bug Fixes|like they've already started doing]])? Now wouldn't it be pretty silly to get worked up about it now? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:23, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

{{Settled TPP}}

{{Proposal outcome|passed|15-3-1|Use Nipper Dandelion for both appearances}}

{{quote|Imo, it should be moved, seeing as how it's an official in-game name. Plagiarism or not, the wiki's focus should be documenting all aspects of the Mario franchise, regardless of our opinions on the matter. It's not the wiki's job to determine what official material is acceptable any more than it's a dictionary's job to determine whether commonly-used slang terms are real words or not.|Niiue}}

{{quote|@LinkTheLefty: Why is that necessary in the first place? How is it a good idea to limit our coverage to spite NoA for using our made-up names instead of making up their own names? I honestly don't get why we have this attitude that names from fanon are irredeemably unofficial regardless of whether Nintendo uses them or not. It just feels like shooting ourselves in the foot more than anything.|Niiue}}

{{quote|That's not a good thing, imo. Again, the wiki's job should only be to document whatever official material we're given. Nothing more, nothing less.|Niiue}}

{{quote|Thwomp -> Thwimp, Whomp -> Whimp. It doesn't take a genius to come up with that name and it's silly to think it's automatically stolen from us in a theoretical situation like that. If the Encyclopedia didn't take every other name under the sun from us, we wouldn't have given them using Whimp a second thought.|Waluigi Time}}

{{quote|Not really following this discussion, but I agree with those who think we should use the English names. It's ridiculous and stubborn to ignore perfectly good in-game names because "it might be citogenesis", but at what point does it stop? How many more names that were confirmed in-game are we going to ignore because there's the chance it could've come from us or another fan site? I opposed renaming Rudy the Clown, and I oppose it here too. It's one thing for a book to blatantly copy from wikis, and I still wholeheartedly agree with not using it, but it's another for a name to actually be used in a game, and I think it's completely ridiculous that some users think we should ignore in-game sources because of the potential origins of those names.|Waluligi Time}}

{{quote|Dare I say this is also getting dangerously close to the wiki, rather than being an objective source on the Mario series like it should be, now leaning on opinions and picking and choosing what's canon.|Wauligi Time}}

{{quote|"Nipper Dandelion" is also a very logical name for this enemy to have, and it fits the Nipper Spore naming scheme better than a literal translation of "Fluff Piranha". A lot of enemy names aren't literal translations anyway, I don't see why the only acceptable name in this case would be one.|Niiue}}

{{quote|Soarin' Stu also has a contradictory English name, which Nipper Dandelion doesn't. And I still don't see why something starting as a fan name makes it permanently unofficial regardless of whether Nintendo uses it. Also, we wouldn't be the ones validating a fan name. Nintendo already did that. We'd just be documenting it.|Niiue}}

{{quote|Doc was discussing how the zeldawiki is falling to to overriding everything which Dark Horses guidebooks. I am worried that this wiki is starting to lose focus due to exterminating any trace of Dark Horse's mistakes, even if names from their books are being used in-game. I 100% agree with Waluigi Time, and honestly, not using an in-game name just because it might of come from us is speculation. Continuing of what Niiue said, the MarioWiki is a documentation of the Mario franchise, not a Game Theory about its canon.|Doomhiker}}

{{quote|Okay, imagine this; let's say, later this year, a new Mario Party game comes out. Nipper Dandelions appear in a minigame, and are mentioned in its instructions. Because the name appeared in the Encyclopedia, we refuse to use it, and it stays named Watage Pakkun. The next year, it appears in a Mario & Luigi game as an enemy, named Nipper Dandelion; later another New Super Mario Bros. game comes out where Nipper Dandelions appear, and their name is mentioned in a level title. That's now four different games with Nipper Dandelions mentioned by name, but because it was mentioned in the Encyclopedia first, we refuse to use that name and stubbornly keep the article as Watage Pakkun. Fans start asking why, and we tell them "oh, it's because the name was first used in a book a few years back that we agreed not to cite". Now our wiki looks ridiculous, unprofessional, and silly, because we're ignoring in-game information over the first place the name was used years ago. See the problem?|Waluigi Time}}

{{quote|In which case they may have looked through the history and decided "Well, we don't have any official English name for this dandelion thing, and translating it straight wouldn't make sense, but this name is concise, makes sense, and aligns with what we would have come up with anyway, we might as well adopt it." Exiling a name permanently because it had been a conjectural name before and was potentially used by game sources seems a tad silly when it's not in active defiance of logic and common sense (like Davisson's veered into often) or defiance of previous literature (which "Ghost" is, but they probably saw the little blue "1" and thought that meant it was totally legit, not finding it in the NP guide). SMBE and "Rudy the Clown" are additionally in defiance of prior English names, with the latter admittedly having already gone through a name change ''and'' being a mention created for the English version. Watage Pakkun on the other hand was in the original JP script for its appearance, so appropriating a concise name for they otherwise didn't have an English name for was arguably the most reasonable thing they could have done. It's not like they should be prohibited from using the same name as one used by fans in sparing instances, if the only other choice is "make a less-concise name."|Doc von Schmeltwick}}

*'''We may be citing ourselves''' {{quote|We're not really citing ourselves anymore in this case though, we're citing Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. The name was mentioned in-game, and as far as I care that's as official as you can get, and MarioWiki:Naming agrees. Like I've said, it's one thing to cite a book that blatantly copied from us; it's completely different to cite a name confirmed in a game by Nintendo themselves.|Waluigi Time}}

#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} If say, [[Petapeta]], [[Jump Beamer]], [[Pattan]], [[Winged Strollin' Stu]], [[Tongari]] and [[Comet Luma|Comet Tico]] had spirits and were respectively named Starbag, Sentry Beam (which is actually another enemy's english name), Whimp, Soarin' Stu, Spiny Hermit and Lumacomète, would we be using these names? No! Why? Because they are conjectural, were unsourced, and one of them was a mistake. The aformentioned Piranha Pod was because it was used in another source than the encyclopedia, so using that name wouldn't be against previous proposal. If this proposal passes, we'd be making a Super Mario Encyclopedia counterproposal for consistency with how we cover citogenesis, partial, full or nothing. Second option would confuse casual readers.  

''"If say, [[Petapeta]], [[Jump Beamer]], [[Pattan]], [[Winged Strollin' Stu]], [[Tongari]] and [[Comet Luma|Comet Tico]] had spirits and were respectively named Starbag, Sentry Beam (which is actually another enemy's english name), Whimp, Soarin' Stu, Spiny Hermit and Lumacomète, would we be using these names? No! Why? Because they are conjectural, were unsourced, and one of them was a mistake."''

:::::As stated by [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name changes|Naming]] (and as reinforced via [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/47#The Usage of Old Names in Articles|proposal]]): "''When mentioning subjects whose names have changed overtime, the newest name generally takes greater priority, '''except in the context of older media where they went by previous names, in which case those are used instead.'''''" Technically, the foreign name exception is actually an unwritten rule to this statement; otherwise, we strive not to be anachronistic with terminology. Maybe the question is, ''why'' should it be an exception, given it does not happen often enough to even be mentioned in policy? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:55, March 30, 2019 (EDT)