Editing Talk:Neo Bowser Castle

==Merge the ''Dream Team'' and ''Paper Jam'' appearances to one article==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|7-0|merge}}
While these are different individual castles and have different designs, the exact same thing can be said about the many, many, many different iterations of "[[Bowser's Castle]]" we ''don't'' split, and I fail to see why this should be different. The name in ''Paper Jam'' is a clear callback to the previous one in ''Dream Team'' (despite the concept of Bowser's Castle doubling as a flying weapon being in every ''Mario & Luigi'' game other than ''Partners in Time'', though these are the only ones of those powered by purple energy...but I digress).

'''Proposer''': {{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 3, 2022, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Not to mention that the names are identical in every language as well.
#{{User|Tails777}} Seems reasonable, per proposal.
#{{User|Swallow}} Taking the point about Bowser's Castle into account, this is fair enough.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Design has next to no weight on determining splits and merges, per proposal.
#{{User|Platform}} Per all.

===Oppose===

===Comments===
Just to be clear, though: are all instances of Bowser's Castle generally considered the same castle albeit with differently conceived designs? {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 15:02, March 23, 2022 (EDT)
:I seriously doubt the ones in ''Paper Mario'' and ''Superstar Saga'' could be. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:37, March 23, 2022 (EDT)

==Re-split Neo Bowser Castle between games==
{{settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-8|Do not split}}
Neo Bowser Castle in Dream Team is a "world". It's not delineated in the game in that way, but functionally each area of Pi'illo Island can be considered a separate world, with differing mechanics and goals. From it, the player accesses various "levels", which introduce or elaborate on these mechanics. This is more obvious from the structure of this game's Pi'illos and Dream Worlds, but even without the Dream World around thinking of sets of rooms as a "level" makes plenty of sense. This goes double for more linear areas like Neo Bowser Castle and Mount Pajamaja. Similarly, Dream Team has a whole "unlock new areas in prior locations that have different enemies" thing, which is delineated in articles by giving both groups separate sections for their enemies, almost as though they are separate "levels".

Dream Team is like a platformer, except that instead of selecting levels from a map screen the player walks between them or selects which area to return to from a map screen with the golden Warp Pipes. The article is already thinking of Neo Bowser Castle as a "world" with "levels", as it names and loosely describes the sections in the [[Neo Bowser Castle#Area Layout|Area Layout]] section. (I think the names and organization are coming from the official guide? It could probably use some elaboration beyond what's written, but that can be fixed.)

Because of this, I think there is good reason to once again split the Neo Bowser Castle's apart. A split would better reflect the game's hybrid platformer/RPG nature by putting this article more in line with platformer World articles. It would make it easier to see what is missing from the article and less intimidating to do things like figure out how to organize a layout section. This change would also make the page easier to use as a reference when playing the game. (I think that's what the block listing sections are meant for, but if this is true and I'm playing Paper Jam, and I am looking at Paper Jam's blocks and then want to scroll to see a Paper Jam enemy, scrolling up all the way past Dream Team's blocks is a substantial obstacle.)

'''Proposer''': {{User|Salmancer}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Salmancer}} Just think of it as World 9, or World 8 if you discount the Blimport.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} ...I don't think we follow the proposal's logic, but we've got our own reason this has been irking us. Simply put, aside from the reuse of names and some assets, the two Neo Bowser Castles from ''Dream Team'' and ''Paper Jam'' are effectively different locales. They have different maps, different enemies, different items inside them, different gimmicks, and while I'm admittedly not familiar with Paper Jam's story, in Dream Team, it was jointly created by Bowser and Amtasma, is black and purple, and at the end of the game, it falls out of the sky, rubbles itself, and then explodes for good measure. The page on ''Paper Jam'' asserts that game's Neo Bowser's Castle is just, Bowser's Castle, but it got launched into the sky--and looking at that game's Bowser's Castle, the similar visuals are pretty much only an indoors thing. While we are, self-admittedly, not that knowledgable on Paper Jam, and we'd be glad to know if we missed anything, what we've seen suggests that it's only the Dream Team Bowser's Castle "in-name only", as it were.
===Oppose===
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - ...what? Sorry, but that argument doesn't make any sense at all to me.
#{{User|Sparks}} Both castles are "new" versions of Bowser's Castle and they're also both exclusive to ''Mario & Luigi''. They're also very similar in general, so I don't think a split is needed.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per the proposal that merged them, the whole "world" argument also works the same way in Paper Jam.
#{{User|Tails777}} I did support merging these two castles and while Camwoodstock's reasonings of them being different locations with different layouts, different enemies and different gimmicks is a viable reason to split them, examples like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle ([[Bowser's Castle (disambiguation)|courts, stadiums and racetracks]] not included) are perfect examples of how these work as one article. ''Partners in Time'' laid Toad Town to ruin and it's still merged regardless. So I feel this is fine staying merged.
#{{User|Arend}} Various iterations of regular [[Bowser's Castle]] have also been merged into a single article, as previously stated by [[#Merge the Dream Team and Paper Jam appearances to one article|the proposal that merged both Neo Bowser's Castles in the first place]]. The only exceptions I can think of are the Bowser Castle race courses across the ''Mario Kart'' series, but these are treated as different race courses (aka levels) rather than a single location.
#{{User|YoYo}} It'd be insane to make this proposal and then not request every single individual Bowser's Castle to be split into their own articles afterwards, but that's probably not gonna happen, which says more than enough for why this is not a good idea. Per all.
# {{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: They're the exact same thing.
===Comments===
Maybe a visual clarifies things?
*[[World 2 (New Super Mario Bros. 2)]]: [[World 2-1 (New Super Mario Bros. 2)]], [[World 2-2 (New Super Mario Bros. 2)]], [[World 2-3 (New Super Mario Bros. 2)]]...
*Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team): Pink Pi'illo (number?) of Dreamy Mushrise Park, Area A of Dreamy Neo Bowser Castle, Area B of Dreamy Neo Bowser Castle, Area C of Dreamy Neo Bowser Castle...

I feel that this relationship justifies splitting the page, similarly to pages like [[Peach's Castle (world)]] for the castle's New Super Mario Bros U. appearance as a world, and [[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey)]] for the kingdom's appearance as a kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey. This also means it's not really for every single Bowser's Castle ever, because those are less "worlds" and more "location in one particular world, setting of one or two courses". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:43, August 11, 2024 (EDT)
:Toad Town is also in both ''Partners in Time'' and ''Bowser's Inside Story'' and we're not making Toad Town (''Partners in Time'') and Toad Town (''Bowser's Inside Story'') because they can be seen as a "world" structure like a platformer. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:If [[Yoshi's Island (location)]] can't even be split up in the "Yo'ster Island" iteration (''Super Mario World'', ''Super Mario RPG'') and the "Yoshi's Island" iteration (the ''Yoshi'' franchise as of ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''), then why should the Neo Bowser's Castles be split? And even if we were allowed to split the two islands based on their Japanese name, not only would the "Yo'ster Island" iteration still cover both the ''Super Mario RPG'' and ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' iterations of this world (both being RPGs), but ''also'' the original ''Super Mario World'' one (a platformer!) {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:00, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

: Mm, sorry but no. They're literally the exact same thing and the only real difference is who created them but even then that's not much as Bowser directly created the castle in the games. Also, the visuals don't exactly count either. {{Unsigned|PrincessPeachFan}}

So, uh, having bothered to look up a longplay <s>which we probably should've done from the start ngl</s>, I have some. News. For certain. [https://youtu.be/8ykRcEIwHX4?t=25290 Looking at the cutscene where "Neo Bowser's Castle" is introduced, turns out that the "Neo Bowser's Castle" of ''Paper Jam'' is... literally the exact same as that game's Bowser's Castle, but lifted up into the sky, and the emblem becomes a different color as well.] This is in pretty stark contrast to the purple and black and pointy castle in ''Dream Team'', for one thing, but for two, we don't even know '''what''' to make of that. The entire opposition seems to be under the impression that this is 1) distinct from the ordinary Bowser's Castle, and 2) is similar to the Dream Team Neo Bowser's Castle. When, if anything, the current rules would suggest we split the Neo Bowser's Castle from Paper Jam... ''and merge it back to the standard Bowser's Castle article.'' {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:19, August 12, 2024 (EDT)
:Did you miss the point I brought up in the original proposal where I said "Bowser's Castle becoming a flying weapon is a recurring trait throughout the ''Mario & Luigi'' series?" Because that's the main reason for it, and basing it off AlphaDream's own naming distinctions given in-game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:27, August 12, 2024 (EDT)
::Bowser's Castle has gone airborne in other games--like, at least as far back as the first ''[[Paper Mario]]''. Really, outside of the name, being owned by Bowser, and the property of "being in the sky at some point", just about everything else between the two Neo Bowser Castles is different in terms of narrative. Neo Bowser's Castle Dream Team was made in the middle of the game, whereas Neo Bowser's Castle Paper Jam was always around from the start as that game's resident normal Bowser's Castle. Like, [[:File:MLPJ BowserCastle.png|it's literally the exact same as Paper Jam's Neo Bowser's Castle, except the emblem is green and not red, and also it's on the ground and not the sky]]. Also, you actually enter Neo Bowser's Castle in Dream Team once it's on the ground--in Paper Jam, you (re)visit there when it's still in the sky. And, of course, one looks like Darigan Citadel from Neopets, and the other looks like... just, the ordinary Bowser's Castle, but it's on top of a purple drone now. We don't exactly agree with "the visuals don't count" when they're not only so radically different, but the Neo Bowser's Castle of Paper Jam resembles the ordinary Bowser's Castle of Paper Jam ''that'' much. We can't exactly think of many compelling reasons beyond the name to split up coverage of the Paper Jam (Neo) Bowser's Castle between two articles like this, let alone cram it partway into the Dream Team Neo Bowser's Castle article given how little they have in common beyond the name and more surface-level stuff. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:35, August 12, 2024 (EDT)
:::I've played through both games, I know how they are. I will point out that the actual ''explorable'' part of Neo Castle in PJ is more similar to the explorable part of Neo Castle in DT than the explorable part of Bowser Castle in PJ. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:52, August 12, 2024 (EDT)
:::How are the differences between the Neo Bowser Castles more split-worthy than the differences between all the regular [[Bowser's Castle]]s? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:48, August 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::To be blunt here, we would sooner take merging the Neo Bowser Castles into the regular Bowser's Castle article than entertain the idea that the Paper Jam Neo Bowser's Castle isn't just, that game's Bowser's Castle, on a purple drone platform, and with the emblem a different color. To us, it makes about as much sense as splitting the information on Peach's Castle in Paper Mario 64 into its own article between where it currently is, and then making a separate "Peach's Castle (Paper Mario)" article for it when it's lifted into the ground... and then merging that hypothetical article into [[Peach's Castle (world)]]. The differences between Paper Jam's Neo Bowser Castle and Paper Jam's normal Bowser Castle are, quite literally, in-name only; as far as the game's story is concerned, they are the exact same castle, except before and after being lifted into the sky. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:58, August 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Yes, but the maps are different. The explorable areas are different. You are mostly exploring the aforementioned "purple drone platform" in gameplay. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:26, August 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::::The maps and explorable areas of Peach's Castle in Paper Mario 64 are different when it's in the sky versus when it's not too. In fact, there's a good few rooms of the castle you only get to visit during the chapter intermissions. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:48, August 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, but there's the same basic layout there, and they are internally stored as the same location with different lighting. I don't recall that being the case for Bowser's Castle in MLPJ. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:54, August 14, 2024 (EDT)