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| This page is a classic case of some users pushing their fanon vision of what the Mario universe is over quality and accurate content- and making the wiki a deserved laughingstock as a result. Common symptons of 2007-itis include: | | This page is a classic case of some users pushing their fanon vision of what the Mario universe is over quality and accurate content- and making the wiki a deserved laughingstock as a result. Common symptons of 2007-itis include: |
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| :I realized that in one point of time you used to cover Banjo and Conker. [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/2/29/20110427232410%21Importancetree.png] {{User:Wynn Liaw/sig}} 08:48, July 31, 2020 (EDT) | | :I realized that in one point of time you used to cover Banjo and Conker. [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/2/29/20110427232410%21Importancetree.png] {{User:Wynn Liaw/sig}} 08:48, July 31, 2020 (EDT) |
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| But you can also make the case that Wario shouldn't be covered outside of the Mario spin-off titles, since his games are about as connected to Mario as Banjo and Conker are. You can even include the Donkey Kong Country games if I'm frank, those have little relation to Mario aside from Donkey Kong himself. It can go either way, right?. I just find it strange to eschew Rare's characters when many pages of this wiki are just as "out there". If a place like the Metro Kingdom exists within Mario's world, I don't think Spiral Mountain is a stretch. [[Special:Contributions/172.98.67.27|172.98.67.27]] 09:46, July 31, 2020 (EDT) | | But you can also make the case that Wario shouldn't be covered outside of the Mario spin-off titles, since his games are about as connected to Mario as Banjo and Conker are. You can even include the Donkey Kong Country games if I'm frank, those have little relation to Mario aside from Donkey Kong himself. It can go either way, right?. I just find it strange to eschew Rare's characters when many pages of this wiki are just as "out there". If a place like the Metro Kingdom exists within Mario's world, I don't think Spiral Mountain is a stretch. |
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| So some backstory on this stuff: Back in the days (as in, literally a decade ago), there was split opinions over wheter the wiki should give full coverage to the Banjo and Conker video games. Eventually the compromise was to create two "Banjo series" and "Conker series" page that were literally just a big list of all the games/characters/items and those games, and basically they were huge piles of shit and there was a sentiment that either we should do it properly, or not at all. The later side won out.
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| The main argument for it (and the one cited on [[Mariowiki:Coverage]]), and one I think is very valid, is that doing this is treating the two franchises as "Donkey Kong spinoffs" which is not really what happened: both Banjo and Conker were games that were in development for the Nintendo 64, they were intended to be released sometimes in 97 but were delayed, and because of that, Diddy Kong Racing took their intended spot as Rare's big holidays game and they decided to include the two characters to promote their upcoming games, although after DKR was released, Rare would decide to delay Conker and retool it in a very different form. They're more like guest stars It would be like calling Fire Emblem the Binding Blade as a "Super Smash Bros spinoff" because Roy showed up in there before his debut title (and yeah I realize the comparison is not 1:1, both because Fire Emblem is an established franchise and Smash Bros. is explictely billed as a crossover - but I think it's close enough).
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| The Wario comparison is not a good one at all: Wario was created as a character whose everything is explicitely derivative of Mario, he still regularly shows up in Mario games (while both characters discussed here were removed from their own debut game, presumably because Nintendo and/or Rare and its current corporate owner did not want to show the franchises as being related) and while yes, the Wario franchise is pretty far removed from the Mario games in a lot of ways, the first Wario Land game was directly branded as a continuation of the Super Mario Land series and involves characters and concept from the Mario universe in its storyline. It's not the same situation at all.
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| Furthermore, giving Banjo and Conker coverage leads to a weird rabbit-hole of including things that were never promoted or created as derivatives of the ''Super Mario'' games, but that share some sublte connections. Stuff like "Well, if you include Banjo and Conker, then why don't you give full coverage to For The Frog The Bell Tolls because [[Mad Scienstein|Dr. Awero Stain]] is a major supporting character in Wario Land games?" or "Why don't you give Rhythm Heaven full coverage since recent entries of it and both WarioWare all but say they're in the same fictional universe?". While both scenarios would be hugely entertaining to me, there ''is'' such a thing as casting too wide of a net.
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| Also, if you're going to invoke authorial intent, Conker's creator Chris Seavor [https://twitter.com/GoryDetail/status/1241106477135298566 recently poo-poo'ed] the idea of Banjo and Conker being in the same universe (and thus, by extension, any other franchises they're theorized sharing a fictional universe with). So yeah. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 09:54, July 31, 2020 (EDT)
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| Fun fact, Diddy Kong Racing's events are mentioned in Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts, and Mario is referred to in passing as well. Just because Conker's Bad Fur Day may or may not exist in Mario's world, does not mean Banjo or Conker's earlier incarnation does not. [[Special:Contributions/162.219.176.130|162.219.176.130]]
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| :Regardless, that does not change the fact that DKR is a crossover with pre-existing ideas, and Banjo and Conker are ''certainly'' not "spinoff" franchises to it just because it ''happened'' to be released first (please recall the principle of production order that get fans of TV shows riled up sometimes). They each get a page, the rest of the respective franchise doesn't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])
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| ::Also, we're not going to cover every video game series that mentions the Mario series as part of "Mario's World", otherwise we'd have to not only fully cover [[List of Mario references in Nintendo video games|every game series here]] and [[List of Mario references in third-party video games|here]], but every franchise represented in Smash. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:56, August 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| There are a lot of assumptions being made here, and it does not change the fact that it 'is' a crossover linking all three franchises. Regardless of any circumstances that occurred during the game's development, from a canon point of view this crossover did indeed happen and has been referenced in subsequent games. This is irrefutable. The storyline itself states that Diddy Kong contacted Banjo and Conker directly, if this isn't a clear link between the Donkey Kong and Banjo franchises at the very least, I don't know what is. This can not be compared to "cameos" or "Smash Bros" because those are two wildly different things. I believe the point remains valid that the Banjo-Kazooie games should be considered a part of the Super Mario universe like Wario and Yoshi, at least for the games released on Nintendo consoles. If lack of quality was the primary concern behind the removal of the former "Mushroom World" page, then it's clear that a higher quality alternative should be pursued rather then forming a laundry list of excuses why it shouldn't be. [[Special:Contributions/184.75.210.66|184.75.210.66]]
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| :[[MarioWiki:Canonicity|There is no canon]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:07, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::Additionally, given it's been stated that Conker and Banjo are not the same "universe," it could just as easily be said that these are a ''different'' Banjo and Conker. Both franchises broke the fourth wall all the time, and ''Nuts & Bolts'' metaphorically demolished its foundation. The continuity for that game and every game in each of these franchises is essentially multiple-choice; note that ''Banjo Pilot'' simply ''can't'' fit into that frranchise's continuity due to its inconsistencies. Regardless, as I said, it's multiple choice, so trying to say "same universe" when they officially aren't is disingenuous at best. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:10, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::Did you read Glowsquid's second-to-last paragraph? Even if Banjo and Conker did share the same "universe" with Mario that wouldn't be a good reason to cover their franchises in full on the Mario Wiki since they don't regularly interact with the rest of the series. Unlike Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and Wario, who were specifically created for the Mario series and regularly continue to appear in Mario games along with characters who first appeared in those spinoffs like Kamek and Diddy Kong, Conker hasn't appeared in a single Mario-related game since he first appeared in Diddy Kong Racing, and it took Banjo over two decades to appear in another game alongside Mario characters. And like Doc said, Banjo and Conker weren't created for Diddy Kong Racing, they were included as "special guests" and it became their first appearance by a scheduling fluke. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:29, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
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| "This can not be compared to "cameos" or "Smash Bros" because those are two wildly different things." I mean, if you had actually checked out the link I posted, you'd have seen someone responded to Seavor with a pic of the Diddy Kong Racing character select screen, to which he respond with [https://twitter.com/GoryDetail/status/1241110643408867328 Are all these from the same universe?"]" and a pic of the SSB Ultimate character select screen. Which indicates that, at least from the position of Conker's creator (and if he isn't qualified to speak about what Conker's fictional universe relates to, who is?), they're infact, The Same Thing.
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| Also, I'm writing this not because I think it'll convince our anon friend over here (it certainly won't) but because it's something I have thought about and it's something I want to refer back to when there are future talks about coverage, and basically I want to expand on what I said about "casting too wide of a net". And the ''tl:dr'' of it is: The wiki isn't ''really'' about the "Mario fictional universe", or rather it's not primarily about that, and rather it is about ''Mario'' and its derived (and partner) series as a real-word media franchise.
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| One of our policy page (I think it was Chronology?) had a statement among the lines "We must remember that [[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]] is the root of everything we created" and while worded in a corny way, the gist still holds true. The Mario and Donkey Kong characters debuted in the arcade game, Mario soon became popular and spawned a big media franchise, which the wiki is ostensibly about. Then, a good decade later, the Donkey Kong character (actually a separate character, but irrelevant in IP terms and a distinction Nintendo does not always strictly adher to) was rebooted with his own successful video game that did away with pretty much all the old arcade trappings and was distinct from the Mario games of the time. And certainly one could say, ''Donkey Kong'' (or more precisely ''Donkey Kong '''Country''''') is a franchise in its own right and shouldn't be seen as a spin-off subordinate to the Mario series - that's a very fair and valid opinion, but, the shared origin in the 1981 arcade game means it make some sense for a website that call itself "Super Mario Wiki" to also document Donkey Kong stuff. Likewise with Wario, Yoshi etc. who were created ''for'' Mario games, were major actors in those and then spawned their own franchise with varying degress of cross-reference back to the "main" Mario franchise.
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| I gave Rhythm Heaven as an example of things going too far: Rhythm Heaven includes a lot of clues it's set in the same fictional universe as the WarioWare series (including both Rhythm Heaven Fever and RH Megamix having modes where you play as WarioWare characters) and in turn the two most recent WarioWare games include a lot of cameos from Rhythm Heaven characters and location. Thus, if only fictional connections mattered, it would only make sense to extend the wiki's coverage to the Rhythm Heave series as a whole, right?
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| But the deal, Rhythm Heaven was not created as a spin-off to WarioWare, or anything else. It started as its own thing (albeit with some quick nods to WarioWare as a result of its shared staff and style), and slowly over time, the two franchises would increasingly reference each-other. But while you can say RH and WW are set in the same fictional universe, you '''can't''' reasonably say Rhythm Heaven is a "Mario spin-off" or even a "WarioWare spin-off", and retroactively making articles for all the Rhythm Heaven games and characters would be a weird and messy leap to make. And by that process, neither are Banjo or Conker. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:26, August 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| Thought I'd add this to the conversation: https://www.dkvine.com/?p=features&page=what_dku
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| {{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
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| :That is a fan-made construct through and through. It’s not relevant here. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:33, August 25, 2021 (EDT)
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| I disagree, I think it holds a lot of credibility since Diddy Kong Racing is an official Nintendo release, and contains characters (like Banjo/Conker) that we would have considered unrelated otherwise. The Donkey Kong connection is also alluded to in the official reveal trailer of Banjo and Kazooie in Smash Bros Ultimate. Not to say that Conker's Bad Fur Day is canon to the Mario Universe (it's not), but I believe that Banjo-Kazooie IS, as well as Conker's original incarnation from Diddy Kong Racing. They are both allies of Donkey and Diddy Kong. I get that there is no official description of Mario's world, nor any detailed map of it's continent and landscape, but I do suggest more detail be added to Banjo's page covering his games, as they should be considered "canon".{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
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| :Anything fan-made doesn't hold any credibility at all to us. Also, if the games themselves are not within our coverage, then we don't need to fully cover them on Banjo's article either. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 16:38, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::I suggest reading Glowsquid's comment regarding our coverage and how "canon" fits into that. (Also, the Mario franchise [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|has no canon]].) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:33, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::"There are a lot of assumptions being made here, and it does not change the fact that it 'is' a crossover linking all three franchises." Pretty interesting you said assumptions are being made (including the assumption there is a "Super Mario Universe"; there isn't), because I think what Glowsquid is saying is just matter of fact sort of thing. If anything I think you're connecting really loose dots that don't really exist and referring to other constructs from other fans that carry little relevance to the wiki. Due to the shaky foundation, you simply cannot write a quality article that really reflects what MarioWiki is set to do, document things, leave out speculation. "This can not be compared to "cameos" or 'Smash Bros' because those are two wildly different things." This one looks like a circular argument by assertion and special pleading? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:25, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| I'm not talking about strictly fan-based speculation, I'm going off of official references.I think it's pretty foolish to assume that the Mario universe has no real continuity, it very clearly does in most games not directly produced by Miyamoto. Especially in the RPG games which have clear sequels. Just because there isn't an official Nintendo timeline doesn't mean that these games don't have any continuity to them. Even Mario Odyssey references previous encounters with Bowser, such as the ones in Super Mario World and Mario 64. The way I see it, Banjo deserves a quality article the same way other Donkey Kong characters do. Because for all intents and purposes, he became a Donkey Kong spinoff character, and the first two games were released on a Nintendo platform. No wild fan speculation needed here.{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
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| :First, please sign your comments with four ~ at the end. Second, although I wasn't part of this discussion before, it looks to me like everyone else here has made it clear enough that Banjo is not a Donkey Kong character, nor is his series even a Donkey Kong spinoff. At this point, this discussion is just going in circles. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:35, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| Not at all, I haven't recieved a single reasonable explanation why Banjo shouldn't be considered a DK character. I hear claims of "fan speculation", yet in a twist of irony the explanations I'm getting could also be considered "fan speculation". Banjo was always intended as a DK spinoff, and in fact there was even going to be more DIRECT ties with a photo of DK himself being in Banjo's house. The intention from the start was to link these two franchises together, and that coupled with the other official references I mentioned earlier, confirms Banjo and his games as canon. At least those not exclusive to Microsoft consoles. [[Special:Contributions/172.83.40.74|172.83.40.74]] 19:47, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :Is there any valid proof of this, directly from the makers of the games themselves rather than a fan-vine? If so, please link it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:51, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :A photo in the house ''is'' a cameo, as is the supposed cut easter egg of DK appearing as part of the puzzle minigame. Banjo-Kazooie had [[Jiggywikki:Dream: Land of Giants|a very long and varied development period]] (which I may add long predated Diddy Kong Racing's development period), and at no point was it a "spinoff" of DK any more than Banjo-Tooie is a spinoff of Sabre Wulf. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:24, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::”Banjo was always intended as a DK spinoff, and in fact there was even going to be more DIRECT ties with a photo of DK himself being in Banjo's house.”
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| ::Fictionally unrelated games sharing cameos of one another isn’t uncommon.
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| ::”The intention from the start was to link these two franchises together”
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| ::Even if there was, the IPs are quite far removed by now. Ergo, the Banjo-Kazooie series doesn’t warrant coverage. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:38, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::You're not really looking at the perspective of the game designers. They do put nods to earlier games for players to pick up on the nostalgia. It's not a comment on continuity as much as a game sprinkling references to other games a lot of players have played. Sure, they reference sometimes, but this doesn't point to any solid ground for an established timeline. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:24, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| There is less evidence to suggest that Banjo 'isnt' connected, than ones that support his inclusion in the greater Mario universe. Another few tidbits I missed was the "Gnawty" character being included in Click Clock Wood in Banjo-Kazooie, and Banjo's likely relation with the "Brothers' Bear" in DKC3. Sharing a similar naming scheme. With all of this evidence and more, I feel it's foolish not to include Banjo in a greater capacity on this Wiki. I feel the intention both during and after the development of Diddy Kong Racing was to link the two franchises together, as a sort of DK "Expanded Universe" of sorts. [[Special:Contributions/71.19.249.33|71.19.249.33]] 20:35, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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| :Donkey Kong appears on ''The Simpsons'' several times. This is enough evidence to support that Kongo Jungle was intended to be in Springfield and thus Homer should get a page, right? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:02, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::I think yet another point you're missing is that Banjo is not a Nintendo property. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:10, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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