Editing Talk:Mushroom World

==The SMB3 map pic==
It should be noted somewhere that the current image isn't actually of the Mushroom World.
Just to avoid confusion.
<br>- [[User:Yoshi Mastar|Yoshi Master]]

==Earth: a different planet?==
I'm sorry if I've missed something, but I'm pretty sure there is no solid evidence for that concept.  I could actually argue that they are part of the same planet: first off, Mario lived in Brookland for a while, right?  Then, between Donkey Kong and Super Mario Bros. was the arcade Mario Bros.  Considering that warp pipes have never made people travel to different planets, I don't know how or when the Mario bros. would have gotten to the Mushroom Kingdom if it were on another planet.

Perhaps it is an alternet dimention, like Smithy's factory?

Now, I don't know much about Mario's Time Machine, but that could provide the evidence we need one way or another.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  Truth is, I'm not sure... so that's why I posted this :)  -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]]

:In Mario's Time Machine, Mario travels from the Mushroom World to Earth via the said time machine. Although the Mushroom World could be in a different dimension, it would still technically be it's own planet. Additionally, in the Super Mario Super Show cartoons, Earth and the Mushroom World are two distinct worlds, each one connected by warp pipes. In the cartoons, Mario lived in Brooklyn and was transported to the Mushroom World via a warp pipe. Throughout the series, Mario and Luigi repeatedly attempted to return to Earth. So, ultimately, the Mushroom World may be an alternate reality of Earth. The Mushroom World would be a planet in this different reality, and somehow be connected to Earth, seeing as Mario and Luigi were born in the Mushroom World, raised in Brooklyn, then returned to the Mushroom World later in their lives. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

:I'll explain how this is relatent in a second: Did the time machine in Mario's Time Machine take people anywhere as well as any time?  If so, that would support the theory of the different planets, in that it ditracts from the single planet theory.  Finally: I think we may get more info by finding out more about Cranky Kong and Pauline, who also were in Brooklyn but now live in MK. -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]]

::The time machine could travel to different places, as it went directly to the USA, Egypt, and even the Moon (the Earth's Moon). Also, as indicated in ''Donkey Kong Land'', the events of the orginal ''Donkey Kong'' took place in Big Ape City, an urban area of Donkey Kong Island, which is a part of the greater Mushroom World. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

:Wait... so if they took place in Big Ape City, then why is there an article here?  Shouldn't it at least note that Nintendo re-wrote the story of Donkey Kong? -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]]

::What do you mean exactly? -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

::Sorry.  I'm talking about the Brooklyn article.  My bad.  As we know from Cranky Kong, Donkey Kong (from Mario Party or DK: Jungle Beat) is not the same as the on in Arcade Donkey Kong.  This seems like another thing like that, where the story was rewritten part way through the series.  So, I'm wondering if we should note that instead of explaining that Brooklyn WAS part of the series until that point. -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]]

:::The Brooklyn article should be changed to reflect any canon information. After the canon info is in the main body of the article, a Retcon section can be added to inform people on the change of canon. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

They HAVE to be different planets, as Earth has one moon, but Mushroom World has two moons.{{unsigned|Max2}}

:Well, no one's brought up the fact that there isn't magic in this world (not like in MK, I mean) and there is no way a human could jump like Mario, or the fact that the Mushroom Kingdom doesn't exist on our planet in reality.  I'm gonna argue and say the moon thing is along those lines.  Besides, the moon you guys are talking about was the size of a meteor, if that.  So perhaps the Mushroom ppl consider it a moon while we don't?  Some thing to think about when using it for the article, y'know? -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]]

Is anybody forgetting something... you know, the fact that there are [[Toads|Living Mushrooms]], [[Koopas|walking turtles with (Cool) shoes]], AND Blocks, clouds, hills, etc. etc. with eyes! [[User:Maxlover2|Maxlover2]] no offense to anyone.

==Different Name==
This article should only contain information about the Mushroom World that appears in ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'', and we should think of a conecture name for the world [[Mario]] lives in. 

The Mushroom World is not the official name for the world they live in correct? Even thought most of the games take place in the [[Mushroom Kingdom]], if the games took place in the [[Beanbean Kingdom]] woukd this article be called '''''The Bean World'''''? Am I correct that we should change it? <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

Should I add SMB3 info? <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

Yes the term is conjectural until someone can find an official source.{{User:Knife/sig}}

Isn't Mushroom World only the place in Super Mario Bros. 3 not the actual planet Mario lives in? <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

The Mushroom World is the term used in Super Mario Bros. 3 to describe the greater area beyond the Mushroom Kingdom. In the game, the Mushroom World encompassed every kingdom, including [[Dark Land]]. By extension to other games, any land that is part of this greater area beyond the Mushroom Kingdom would be part of the Mushroom World, including the Beanbean Kingdom. For the time being, this is the most canonical term we have for describing Mario's planet. Hopefully Super Mario Galaxy will shine some light on this question. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

How about leading the article with: ''"'''Mushroom World''' is a term used for the planet [[Mario]] and his friends live on. This planet has also been called Earth and no official name has been stated, however Mushroom World is commonly considered the most accurate term."'' or something like that. - [[User:Myles|Myles]] 00:29, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
:I'm not sure if where on the Wiki this was posted, but it was noted that in Paper Mario a Boo states that there are hidden panels all around "Mushroom World." So, it is the official name, but by no means is it common for Nintendo to draw attention to the name. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 02:44, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

==Diamond City==
Although this stuff is about to be moved to another wiki, (Which I am against) shouldn't Diamond City from the Wario-Ware series be here? - Hyper Mushroom

Yes of course. Also this won't be moved to the Wario Wiki. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

Thanks. And I meant Diamond City being moved, not the Mushroom World.

I know some proof that Diamond City is on earth by my Favorite guy, 9-Volt. think about this. 9-Volt thinks Mario is a Video game character just like we do. if it was in the Mushroom World, he would know he is real. respond if you understood that, than tell me what I just said. ;) no, just joking. but really, was that confusing? for once, I think it isn't. [[User:Maxlover2|Maxlover2]]

:Note that the Mushroom World, Earth, and Diamond City articles all say that Diamond City may be on Earth. Also, video game characters play video games of people in their world all the time. DK had to play the original Donkey Kong in DK 64, and Paper Mario was one of the favorite games of the Toad kid in Petalburg (even though the kid met the real Mario as well). -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

oh. '''9-Volt x8''' :) he lost a life :) [[User:Maxlover2|Max2]] that was... weird.

YA RLY. SPEK FR YRSLF. {{User:3dejong/sig|YES WAI.}}

==SMRPG Mushroom World?==
Is the world of Super Mario RPG comparable to the Mushroom World. Or is it some different entity? - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 09:08, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

:It seems sorta like a world, so we might be able to call it our Mushroom World, but then again, I once heard some old promotional material refer to it all as the "Mushroom Kingdom", even though it seems to be more like different countries... That promotional material came out before the game did, and there are no in-game references to what kind of governmental unit the SMRPG lands are in, so I guess we (or at least I) just don't know. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}}

::The "Mushroom Kingdom" in SMRPG was only a small town. Almost everything, even [[Mario's Pad]], was outside of it. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 09:25, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

:::Yeah, I know that; I wasn't talking about anything in-game; 'twas promotional material (actually a Nintendo Power entry) I was thriving on. Considering that it was just a little town, though, I suppose we could pretty safely call the whole thing the Mushroom World. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}}

:::AURGH! Never mind, I was confusing this with the [[Mushroom Planet]]. XP Please forgive me... Anyway, now that I'm realizing this, I don't really think the SMRPG world is too much like the Mushroom World, but possibly vaguely similar... Anyway, sorry. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}}

==Paper Mario==
In ''Paper Mario'', a Boo in Boo's Mansion, the one who appears after you get the boots, refers to the Mushroom World, as in saying things are hidden all over the ''Mushroom World''. Think this should be noted? -- [[User:Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

Sure.{{User:Knife/sig}} 16:36, 23 July 2007 (EDT)

So, um, does anyone else think that the Mushroom World the Boo references is the Mushroom Planet? -- [[User:Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

Hold on a sec...he says "Mushroom World" - with the "M" and "W" capitalized.  If this is true, I don't think he is referring to the Mushroom World mentioned in Super Mario Bros. 3, but the planet itself.  Upon confirmation, I think we should merge Mushroom Planet and Mushroom World.  Mushroom World seems to be the best name we have for Mario's world. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

Oh, and get an '''''exact''''' quote - this could really clarify what we label Mario's world. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

I can probably get the exact quote tonight, I'm pretty sure the Boo stays in place and says the same thing over and over for the duration of the game. -- [[User:Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

Yeah, i guess your right, most PM charactures in the series say the same thing over and over again untill you do something {{User:Lario/sig}} Sry I never played PM but I've seen three seconds of the start of  the game!

I think if the quote refers to the proper noun "Mushroom World", she should merge the Mushroom Planet and Mushroom World articles, and begin using the term Mushroom World to describe Mario's world.  Here are the reasons (assuming the quote is true):

*The term Mushroom World will have been used in more than one game.
*The term Mushroom World refers to many kingdoms and lands in Super Mario Bros. 3.  It a huge area which many different environments.  It very much resembles a planet.
*The Mushroom Kingdom is described as being the entryway to the Mushroom World in Super Mario Bros. 3.  Paper Mario opens up into a much greater world.  Most regions simply loosely affilated with the Mushroom Kingdom, but some areas in the game are beyond the scope of the kingdom, such as [[Star Haven]], which exists far in the sky.  Star Haven is a part of Mario's world, but not part of the Mushroom Kingdom.  Thus Paper Mario takes place in both the Mushroom Kingdom and the Mushroom World.  This would also support that the Mushroom Kngdom is part of the Mushroom World, as Paper Mario largely takes place in the kingdom (and is filled with hidden things).
*The name "Mushroom Planet" is a conjectural term - it is based on a quote from the movie, not the video games.

I can't think of any other reason to use a different name for Mario's world. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

So here's the quote - "There are hidden panels on the ground all over Mushroom World, so keep an eye out for them." - Notice the lack of a "the" between "over" and "Mushroom". -- [[User:Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

Oh, so we should be saying "Mushroom World" instead of "the Mushroom World" (as we say "Mars", not "the Mars").  I think this evidence warrants a merge with the Mushroom Planet article. -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]
:Does that mean we can delete the conjecture header? {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:01, 11 December 2007 (EST)

Speaking of Paper Mario, Ive always imagined the WHOLE paper mario series to be in a completely different (although very similar) dimension than the rest of the Mario games. even if thats not verified im still thinking of it that way ;) {{unsigned|Catsrnice}}

==Super Smash Bros. and the Nintendo universe==
Should Smash Bros. ''really'' be mentioned in the part about the theory that Nintendo game-worlds exist in the same universe?
The Smash Bros. series makes it pretty clear that the actual Nintendo characters themselves are NEVER the ones fighting: it's actually just a bunch of dolls (in the first game) or figurines (in Melee and Brawl) that were somehow brought to life.  Heck, Brawl even has the "trophies fighting" part mentioned on its official website (the "In this world, trophies fight" update, for example--and the use of "in ''this'' world" seems to imply that Smash Bros. might not be part of the normal Mario/Nintendo universe at all.) [[User:Wario'sFalconPAUNCH!|Wario&#39;sFalconPAUNCH!]] 00:31, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

:Good point.  Changing.  That doesn't mean they couldn't be in the same world, but sometimes it's better to leave some things unsaid.  -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

==DK Lives on (an) Earth==
So yeah, theres a zoom-out of the planet the Kongs, Kremlings, etc. live on in ''DK: Jungle Climber'', and the planet shown is quite clearly Earth, with places such as Australia and Asia being seen, should this be noted? -- [[User:Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

:For now, I think things are fine.  I think Mushroom World could look like Earth from space, as shown in other games.  This is mentioned in the article (they may be alternate versions of each other).  But the article also says DK may not be on Mushroom World, but a different world.  I think we have our bases covered.  Does the game make references to Earth's history and insert itself into that continuity?  Does Donkey Kong save George Bush in the end?  If that were to happen, it would be more clear that DK lives on Earth.  Until then, we are fine saying maybe he's in Mushroom World, maybe he's in another world (possibly the Earth featured in Mario is Missing!, or a different Earth). -- [[User:Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

==Ending of Super Mario Galaxy==
In Super Mario Galaxy, after you beat the game, it zooms out showing the Mushroom World looks very much like Earth. Is this proof of somekind? {{User:Minimariolover10/sig}}
:That the two are actually one?  No.  They are similar in every game.  But: if you see distinct continents, that is something. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 15:53, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

==Just Thinking...==
Right now we have posted that DK ''could maybe possibly'' live on another planet separate from the Mushroom World.  I know to assume they're the same would be conjecture to a certain extent, but do you have any proof to the contrary?  I dunno, but to me it seems like it's just theorizing right now.  Think about it: there's no evidence for any kind of convenient space travel, so is it really that likely for DK and his crew to come over for every Mario Party, Tennis, Golf, Baseball, Strikers, etc., etc., etc.?  And would Mario Toy Company's advertisements reach DK on another planet, really?  It just seems too unlikely to mention.  The "two planets", if this is true, have no more differences than does Yoshi's Island, for example.  Anyway, what I'm saying is, yes it's conjecture to say that they happen on the same planets, but it's unsupported theorizing to say they are not. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 01:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:Quite. Take a look at the paragraph as it currently exists:
::''It is harder to determine if locations with fewer connections to Mario and the Mushroom Kingdom exist on this planet or on another similar planet in a parallel universe (dimension). This includes certain locations from the Donkey Kong series and WarioWare series, such as the DK Isles, Timber's Island, and Diamond City. However, given the many connections between these different series, and that dimensional travel between these hypothetical alternate worlds has never been depicted, it is most likely they all exist on the Mushroom World.''
:After reading the talk page, I'm going to trim out all the "parallel dimension that's never been depicted" and just say "it's never been made explicit"... - [[User:Reboot|Reboot]] 23:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Yeah, good call: that bit ''was'' pretty dreadful. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 00:26, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

==Super Mario Galaxy image==
I think the shot of the planet at the end (where Mario is saying, "Welcome, new galaxy!") would be a better image than the one we have now. Also, we may need an image gallery of all the depictions of the world throughout the games (like Mario Party 2 (whenever the genie is used or during the ending), Super Paper Mario (when you jump on Cyrrus), DK Jungle Climber (the aforementioned ending to the game), etc.). — [[User:NES Boy|NES Boy]] 07:13, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
:Both Super Paper Mario and DK Jungle Climber takes place in a different dimension. But yeah, that's a good idea. --[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 07:19, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
::Donkey Kong Jungle Beat has an image of the Mushroom World, too. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 20:45, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

==Mario Kart Wii's Rainbow Road==
If you look beneath Rainbow Road, you can see a planet that resembles the Mushroom World. In the distance, you can see a planet from our solar system, though, Saturn. So the Mushroom World has a planet in its solar system exactly like ours? I really think the planet that the Rainbow Road is above is Planet Earth. {{unsigned|Kobble}}
:That's not the first time planets from our solar system have appeared in a Mushroom World location.  It also happened with Jupiter and Saturn (maybe more) in ''DDR: Mario Mix'' ("Up, Down, Left, Right").  While it should be mentioned where these planets appear, to say that a planet is the Mushroom World/Earth based on their presence is conjectural either way.  It's one of those situations where our job as a Wiki is to point out the fact, and back away without making any judgement/conjecture except when backed by a respectable 3rd party (or 1st, but there's none that I can think of that have commented on this).  If you find such a source, please cite it. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:39, 8 May 2008 (EDT)
::I have tried to make out recognizable parts of Earth on the Mario Kart Wii planet. The only thing I recognized clearly was Australia. However, on this "Earth", it was a sea rather than a landmass. I figured that this planet is designed to resemble Earth closely, but not exactly be it. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 14:54, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I suppose that means the information can go on here, then? {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 15:51, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

==Mario Galaxy==
The mushroom world is Definetly in The [[Grand Finale Galaxy]]. I have seen it in [[Super Mario Galaxy]] and it says so [[Galaxy|here]]. -
{{User:Bob-omb buddy/sig}}
:Noted.  I'll update the article if it needs to be done. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 11:14, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

==Inferred Lands==
Would anyone mind me merging the inferred lands with the rest of the locations?  Honestly, we're speculating much more to say that they're not  part of Mushroom World just because they aren't associated with the Mushroom Kingdom.  What about Sarasaland?  Shouldn't we list that because it's not the MK?  You could go on for hours. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 11:08, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
:I feel we could probably merge them.  I think the recent Wii soccer, baseball, and kart racing games have pretty much established a strong connection at least between the Donkey Kong series and the Mario series.  The original Donkey Kong Country instruction manual even mentions Mario by name.  Plus DK's treehouse is featured in Mario Party 7.  And isn't Diamond City featured in Mario Kart Arcade GP (with Gadd Science logos all over the place)?  And in [[Wario's House]] Wario keeps a number of objects from the Wario Land series (which has stronger connections to Mushroom World), doesn't he?  What d'yall think? -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
::I totally agree with both of you. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 23:05, 8 December 2008 (EST)

==Map added==
I added the map of the Mushroom World. Please, change if this is not a good thing.
[[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]]
:Actually, there is an overworld map from ''SMB3'', but the only image of it ([[Image:MushroomWorld.png]]) was deleted (after being taken off the article by some idiot). I've tried to find a replacement without success. Anyway, your map doesn't actually reflect how the world is structured in the game, sorry. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:03, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

==Mario's World==
I was looking through old instruction manuals, and I stumbled upon this name for the world Mario lives in: '''"Mario's World"'''.  It's in the Super Mario RPG instruction manual, page 8.  So I was wondering what people think of this name?  Mushroom World makes some sense, but as some have noted, Mushroom World is somehow bound to the Mushroom Kingdom (the Mushroom Kingdom acts as a gateway to Mushroom World).  Mario's World does not have this stipulation, it is simply the world Mario explores in the game (which I believe depicts a world that includes the Mushroom Kingdom but that is greater than the Mushroom Kingdom - i.e., an early attempt to represent a ''planet'', where the Mushroom Kingdom is only one small element of a much greater world).  So...any comments?  What do people think?  I believe the cartoons and other media do establish a distinction between this world and "Earth," but what should this world be called? -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
:I've got that manual, and to me, "Mario's World" is just an informal way of addressing all the places Mario's going to traverse, especially when you consider the fact that the whole booklet is to be read as Luigi's narration of what's going on. I've found that "___'s World" is really another way of saying "___'s life," - it's everything and everyone they encounter and encompasses all of what they do, both of which apply to Mario's case here. In the text, Luigi repeatedly uses the future tense when stating that Mario (and friends) ''will'' travel "this world", as opposed to saying it is where they ''are'' living, etc., indicating the "Mario's World" label merely applies to ''Super Mario RGP'' (the immediate future). Therefore, calling the planet "Mario's World" would be no real improvement to continuing on with "Mushroom World", nor would anything else we came up with besides "The World", which is too pretentious and potential confusing when you take Earth and all the other worlds into consideration. I think we should just leave it as the "Mushroom World", which is the most believable and widely-accepted name for the planet anyhow. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:08, 26 November 2008 (EST)
::While I will disagree with you that "Mario's World" refers to his life (I think Luigi is referring to the actual world, future tense is used as Mario has not been to all these places yet), the second part of your argument makes sense, especially after I just looked back at the manual and figured out that all of the sections use caps in the first letter of each world, so Mario's World is probably only '''Mario's world''', which doesn't really help us.  Mushroom World makes more sense, especially given the use of "Mushroom" in naming locations that occurs throughout the Mario franchise (Mushroom Kingdom, Mushroom Universe, etc.).  So yeah, ultimately Mushroom World is the best term we have. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
:::More support for it: on Paper Mario's start menu, if you highlight the time counter, it says something to the effect of "Time spent in '''the Mushroom World'''" {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 23:42, 8 December 2008 (EST)
::::So both "Mushroom World" and "the Mushroom World" are correct then. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
:::::Just like "Earth" and "the Earth." Ha, ha... that discussion must have been at least a year and a half old and still I remembered it... wow. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 16:25, 9 December 2008 (EST)

==Game Lands & Show Lands==
I think it would be better if the locations in the TV show be seperated in a different category than the video game locations. They should be split into two categories to not be confusing. - {{User:Slayer25769}}

:While I don't think we should seperate them, because that would imply different levels of "canon," we should probably indicate the first appearance of each of these locations, as we do with the first appearance of notable members of species in species article.  Then we can organize the list by first appearance, instead of alphabetical order. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}

This concept is fake. The Mushroom Kingdom is on Earth and the Mushroom World is part of Earth. kthxbai.[[User:Xbox Executive Pasty|Xbox Executive Pasty]] 13:35, 23 January 2009 (EST)
:Please site a source for your belief.  I'd be great to hear what Nintendo has to say about it nowadays.  However, the last I was aware, Nintendo had not refuted the fact established in their licensed TV show that the worlds were separate. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 13:50, 23 January 2009 (EST)

==The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!==
I just purchased the first volume of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, and on the back of the box set I found even more confirmation of the name Mushroom World.  The back cover reads: "And if that weren't enough, each episode also contained live-action segments featuring Mario and Luigi running their Brooklyn plumbing shop - all before they were flushed down a drainpipe into the '''Mushroom World'''." -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
:OH, YES!  That also means the live-action segments happened BEFORE the cartoon segments!!!  Uh-huh!  Dance par-tay! {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:01, 13 February 2009 (EST)
::I can't believe I never noticed that! Mind you, I haven't really read the box since this article was titled Mushroom Planet. I was confident that the live-action segments took place first though. -- {{User|Booster}}
:::Both SoS and I felt the same way, too.  It's just nice to know we're not speculating anymore. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 09:26, 13 February 2009 (EST)

==Various Galaxies==
"Several small galaxies are in orbit around Mushroom World, including the Gateway Galaxy, the Good Egg Galaxy and Bowser Jr.'s Robot Reactor. Galaxies relatively close to Mushroom World on the map of the universe include the Honeyhive Galaxy, the Loopdeeloop Galaxy and the Flipswitch Galaxy." 

How close is the Comet Observatory to Mushroom World? 'Cause if it's too far away, this wouldn't apply. {{User:Superstar Daisy/sig}}

:The Comet Observatory is parked right outside the Mushroom World at the beginning of the game, and does not move from that spot until full power is restored, allowing it to form into a spaceship again. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}

==Split those from show and games==
Just to say but is it possible to maybe split into different sections on the article of those from te games and such and those from the tv series since the games were made by Nintendo and the shows weren't but had of course rights. --[[User:Vitas|Vitas]] 01:48, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:The Mario & Luigi series wasn't made by Nintendo either, but by AlphaDreams. Same goes for the Paper Mario series (that was made by Intelligent Systems) or Yoshi's Island DS (that was made by Dimps). The Wiki considers every spin-offes as being part of the series, including the cartoons. [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] 10:41, 27 May 2010 (EDT)
::What the fuck? Yoshi's Island DS was NOT made by Dimps. Also, the wiki's stance with considering adaptations as part of the canon is beyond ridiculous, as it's obvious that the cartoons, comics and movie are different universes from the video games. By the insane "it's a official adaptaton, so it's canon" logic, Bowser is a reptilian human, Luigi is a teenager, Sonic is a nerdy kid who can transform into a superhero, and Spider-Man battles his foes using giant Japanese mechas >.> - [[User:Ericss|Ericss]] 13:06, 27 October 2011 (EDT)
:::I can almost understand it because Miyamoto considers the continuity very loose, but he also effectively stated that the events of the film is in no shape or form canon. The wiki's just trying to look at things from an objective standpoint first and foremost. But yeah, I'm not in full agreement either since making a hodgepodge of game and cartoon/comic info can also create a mess of its own, but c'est la vie. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:25, 20 September 2012 (EDT)

==Donkey Kong how did he get to the Mushroom World if Mario had him on Earth?==
Shouldn't Kongo Bongo Island be on Earth because Dk ran off after Stanley got him to leave and Dk couldn't possibly have gotten to the Mushroom World because there is no story behind that and it is said that Kongo Bongo Island is Dk's home and Dk was brought to Brooklyn by some people.

Also how did Mario's parents get from the Mushroom World to Brooklyn? --[[User:Schmeater|Schmeater]] 22:00, 24 January 2010 (EST)

The Brooklyn backstory was only added in some early non-game American-produced media, and is not considered part of the game series. The game continuity states Mario's origins in [[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island|Yoshi's Island]]. In addition, [[Big City]] and [[Big Ape City]] are one in the same. Though apparently the subject of Earth does occasionally come up in spinoffs, so I think the Mushroom World is supposed to be some form of Earth. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 13:57, 18 February 2011 (EST)

==SMG2==
There are two clear shots of the Mushroom World in [[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]. One on the World Selection (where the entire planet can be seen) and  on the world map (where only the north hemisphere can be seen but it's much more precise). Could someone try to take a screenshot of the World Selection with World 1 selected, and another screenshot of the part of the map of World 1 where the planet is seen ? [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] 08:56, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

== RPG Locations ==

Why aren't there locations in Mario RPGs listed. I believe that those places count as places in the Mushroom World.

[[File:DaisyMP8Official.png|50px]][[File:YoshiMP8art.png|50px]]The Awesome Yoshi Fan [[User:Tails777|Tails777]][[File:Tails Sticker.png|50px]][[File:Toadsmall.jpg|50px]]
:Laziness. --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 15:45, 23 May 2011 (EDT)

::Then would it be O.K. if I added some of them?

[[File:DaisyMP8Official.png|50px]][[File:YoshiMP8art.png|50px]]The Awesome Yoshi Fan [[User:Tails777|Tails777]][[File:Tails Sticker.png|50px]][[File:Toadsmall.jpg|50px]]

:::Yeah {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}

::::Now that I think about it, most of those locations I was thinking of should be listed in the [[Mushroom Kingdom]] article. There should be a list of all the locations in the Mushroom Kingdom instead of just towns, castles and cities. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
==Say what? And about SMRPG==
There appears to be some confusion in an image for this article at the bottom of the page. The second image says it's a overview of the planet Mushroom World, but when I click on it the actual description is "The Moon as seen during the fight with Raphael the Raven in Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island." Is it the Mushroom World or is it a moon?MAKE UP YOUR MINDS PEOPLE! Also it (It was discussed above but) technically the Super Mario RPG areas are on the Mushroom World, and have names. Would this mean they should be put on the large list of "Named lands of Mushroom World"? {{User|MarioMarioWiki}}
:The image has ''both'' the moon and the planet below. The planet part is what is relevant to this page so that's what was mentioned here, but the focus and origin of the image are the central aspects of the image, which is why that's what was mentioned in the actual image summary. However, I expanded the image's summary to explicitly point out that it's the Mushroom World below - extra info never hurts. And yes, as far as I know, the SMRPG worlds can go on the list (except for Smithy's factory, which is already in the "other dimensions" list). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:12, 1 March 2012 (EST)
::Thanks for sorting out my confusion and for the response,and I added the Super Mario RPG areas (Well,excluding the ones that were already there) in the "Named Lands of Mushroom World" so if you want to look it over, please do so and correct my errors(If I made one that is).{{User|MarioMarioWiki}}

==Mushroom World as Planet Name - Inaccurate==
In ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', the worlds of that game were each in the Mushroom World, but I'm pretty sure it was never officially addressed as being the name of Mario's planet and just referred to it being ruled by eight kings (counting Bowser). In fact, it is instead stated that the Mushroom Kingdom somehow forms the gateway into the Mushroom World (probably through the Warp Zone), so they would imply it not being the case. In ''Mario is Missing'', they differentiated Earth and the game world by calling it Mario World, but a lot of people don't count the edutainment titles seriously... However, this was indeed backed up by Nintendo, and in surprising places - in ''Super Mario RPG'', the characters (such as the [[Manager]]) would refer to it as "Mario's world", which seems like a general term. Though the Japanese version uses 「マリオワールド」 in straight katakana in the game script - literally ''Mario World''! In the Japanese game script, there are more instances of "Mario World" spoken by characters who would be native to it, such as Bowser. In both cases, in spite of being developed by very different teams with very different goals in mind, the term always refers to Mario's dimension/planet in their storylines, whereas "Mushroom World" (at least in ''SMB3'') refers to the eight kingdoms. I don't tend to follow the comics / cartoons, so I don't know if they used "Mushroom World" to mean the planet. I've also noticed that "Mushroom World" was also used in ''Yoshi's Safari'', where it's said to be entirely separate from Jewelry Land - which is said to be a ''nearby kingdom''. That tells me that the Mushroom World is ''not'' the name of Mario's planet according to the Yoshi's Safari storyline, and that the Mushroom Kingdom is considered an extension of the Mushroom World even if it also serves as its entrance. I also read above that the term was used in ''Paper Mario'' text in relation to the in-game time, but as I've demonstrated it can also refer to the main Mushroom Kingdom (which is the setting of the game). The closest we've come to an actual planet name is Mario World, officially. For now, I've listed the Japanese names and Mario World as an alternative name for the Mushroom World, but I'm convinced Mario World is supposed to mean the larger world and Mushroom World was meant to represent the ''SMB3'' worlds along with the Mushroom Kingdom. Since there seems to be a lack of official information saying that the Mushroom World is actually the name of Mario's planet, I suggest the article should be split to be more accurate. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:59, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
:<s>Wait what's the context of the Yoshi's Safari thing (I.E what's the exact quote)</s> edit already found out where it's said. {{User|Raven Effect}}
::::From the ending: "''After restoring peace to Jewelry Land, Mario and Yoshi returned to the Mushroom World. There Princess Peach awaits. But, what has become of Bowser? He has taken the Koopalings and returned to whence they came. This story is now over.''" Looking at a Japanese video of the ending (the person did a tool-assisted speedrun), it says pretty much the same thing. The game also shows Mario and Yoshi traveling back to the Mushroom World by walking. That's also supported by the intro quote: "''One day, Mario and Yoshi came to see Princess Peach... She told them of a nearby kingdom, a place called Jewelry Land.''" This and the SMB3 definition of the Mushroom World leads me to think this article should be renamed (probably to "Mario World", since as I've mentioned that's a name for Mario's planet or dimension that was tossed around by different official sources), and then group the SMB3 worlds and the Mushroom Kingdom together as a new Mushroom World article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:26, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
:::::I know this has been up for a while, but I'd also like to add: from when I can tell from the Super Mario World [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/vc/vc_smw/vc_smw_02.html Japanese storyline], the Mushroom World is mentioned as the place Mario saved on a few occasions, but then shifts focus to Yo'ster Island of Dinosaur World. This would also suggest that the Mushroom Kingdom is a part of the Mushroom World, but the Mushroom World isn't necessarily the name of Mario's planet. As I say, Mushroom World likely just encompasses the Mushroom Kingdom and the ''SMB3'' worlds, and not the broader Mario World. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:17, 9 October 2012 (EDT)
::::::Agreed entirely with this, the Mushroom World was only really used specifically to refer to the eight kingdoms. At the moment the article acts as if Jewelry Land is a whole other planet, which is nonsense. It's also unlikely that places like Dinosaur Land are actually part of the Mushroom World, as stated. This page should be split into a focus on the actual mentions of Mushroom World as a location, and give a new name to the planet itself. Mario World seems like as good a title as any, unless anyone can find anything more specific. I wouldn't be surprised to see the planet referred to as Earth, even if it's not OUR Earth, but I don't remember it being referred to in any game. I'd have to ask for the context of the "Mario World" quotes, if possible? In particular, Bowser's quote sounds interesting, as he often resides in a his own little underworld (being a Demon King and all).
::::::Also, I know the Mario cartoons treated the distinction as very different, but as far as I see it, they're in an entirely different canon. The edutainment titles are... questionable, but better. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 08:13, 23 December 2013 (EST)
::::::I think the planet may be referred as "Earth" in the description for The Moon on Paper Mario: TTYD's map, as this is the case in the French version, which is more closely translated from the Japanese version than some other translations. But this needs to be checked. But yes, Mushroom World has never been intended to refer to the whole world Mario lives in, and the most common term has been Mario World. But since the wiki takes everything as being "canon", the term was probably used by some obscure comic or something. Seriously though, why are we using Mushroom World, again? [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] ([[User talk:Koopalmier|talk]]) 08:34, 23 December 2013 (EST)
:::::::Definitely seems like a silly holdover from the cartoons. I too just learned that this wiki counts everything as canon. It's pretty laughable, and frankly outdated. Letting the cartoons, which don't match up to the rest of the series at all, dictate anything important like this is really not a good idea. Have the cartoons ever even been watched by Miyamoto and co.? I doubt they were even broadcast in Japan. Anyway, I think we can agree this page needs to focus on the ACTUAL Mushroom World, or be renamed to Mario World (or Earth, if it is indeed referred to that way in any Nintendo-developed games). [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 13:59, 4 January 2014 (EST)
Yes, I agree - cataloging and preserving everything official in the series is one thing, but it's when you lump pretty much all of it together with equal pertinence in such a broad, long-running franchise that things tend to get a little messy and disjointed. I'd be all for establishing a sort of canonical hierarchy...Anyway: Mario World / Earth. In the manuals of the console ports of ''Mario is Missing!'', they use the term "Mario World" in the story section to distinguish it from "your world", and use Earth when describing the function of the Globulator. The original PC version apparently did not have this information in its manual, so I assume it was added later. Obviously the edutainment titles (as well as the ''Mario & Sonic'' games) definitely take place on Earth, but I actually don't think they used the term Mario World in the game itself (though I'm not going to replay it anytime soon to find out). But it is (probably coincidentally) called Mario World again in the Japanese version of ''Super Mario RPG'', and "Mario's world" in the English version. It's used at least four times - it's used in the instruction manual when describing the world map, then in the narrator's speech right after Geno is recruited, and twice during the exchange between Bowser and the Manager at the Factory. Note that this does not necessarily mean it is the name of the planet - it could just as easily be what the Smithy Gang dubs the dimension.

I'm also fairly certain (though I could be wrong here) that the cartoons never referred to Earth as anything different from the Mushroom Kingdom / Mushroom Land - they only used "the real world" when describing Mario and Luigi's home. Earth might have been used in place of "the real world" in the movie, but even the wiki treats that as its own unique entity (and even then, it's pretty moot since it's depicted as the same place on a parallel timeline). Although I'm pretty sure the Wario sub-series used Earth at certain points (specifically in ''Master of Disguise'' and whenever they refer to Orbulon in the ''WarioWare'' games), and it'd be quite a stretch to consider it separate from Mario's version... As for the ''Paper Mario'' games - I vaguely remember the first one using the phrase "what on earth", but that may just be a figure of speech. Although I actually have the Japanese version of ''The Thousand-Year Door'', and when I get around to it I could check if it uses the word 地 (chi, ground or planet's surface; also implicitly Earth) or 地球 (chikyū, literally meant to be the planet Earth), as both are often translated to "earth" (lowercase).

At any rate, I don't think that Mushroom World was ever used as the name of the so-called "Mushroom Planet" in any form of Mario media, because if you look a little ways above, to quote a 2007 discussion: "Mushroom World seems to be the best name we have for Mario's world." Yeah... So from what I gather, this has always been conjecture / fan-application from the start, and it's frankly a little annoying when you start to see people start to cite Mario Wiki over that reason. This distinction doesn't even exist anymore - after ''Yoshi's Island'', the whole "Mario Bros. are from an alternate reality" idea fell into disuse almost immediately and never really applied to the games themselves. Ideally, I believe Mushroom World should just refer to the Mushroom Kingdom and the worlds of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (as it's ''solely'' been used for by Nintendo), with Earth as the name of the planet with the note that "the real world" and "Mario World" are terms that are sometimes used to separate the real-life and fictional versions of the same thing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:43, 6 February 2014 (EST)

Update: Okay, as it was mentioned a bit above, Mushroom World is sometimes used in ''Paper Mario'' to refer to the game world. However, booting up the Japanese version, I can see that キノコワールド (Kinokowārudo) is not only indeed in the original script, but from what I can tell it actually ''replaces'' every instance of "Mushroom Kingdom"(!). Mushroom World is actually interchangeable with Mushroom Kingdom here - basically meaning that the translators tried to localize it to the more-familiar Mushroom Kingdom, but missed a few spots (the timer on the pause menu and that one Boo NPC). Essentially, it's referring to the same thing - there is no difference, so all this does is oddly enough confirm that Mushroom World is a valid name for it. However, in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', it is more commonly referred to as キノコの世界 (Kinoko no Sekai), although the manual uses both terms. The manual defines it as "''the 8 kingdoms that make up the Mushroom World''" - which would seem to exclude both World 9 (Warp Zone) and the Mushroom Kingdom in this definition. However, it still stands - Nintendo has only ever directly used Mushroom World to refer to the Mushroom Kingdom, as well as the eight neighboring lands of ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. Then there's another apparent piece of evidence above, where it is found on the back of the DVD box of the ''Super Show'' (really?). Neverminding that the cartoons will change approximately half of the location names (and that I don't even think they call it by name in the show anyway), this arbitrary instance doesn't even explicitly refer to it as the name of Mario's planet - it can just as well fit with the ''Paper Mario'' use of the term (interchangeable with the Mushroom Kingdom), which again was attempted to be edited out of the English version. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:47, 6 February 2014 (EST)

==Conker's Homeland==
Is it normal that every time I add the homeland of Conker the Squirrel, the Panther Kingdon, someone always remove it? --[[User:Metalex123|Metalex123]] ([[User talk:Metalex123|talk]]) 22:14, 18 November 2013 (EST)
:Probably because while Conker appeared in Diddy Kong Racing I'm not sure anyone would count his games as canon to the Mario universe at all. It would be like including Hyrule on the wiki, because Link made a cameo in Super Mario RPG. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 14:03, 4 January 2014 (EST)
::To be fair, though, Conker first appeared in Diddy Kong Racing, it might be possible to consider both him and Banjo to be spinoff characters in a weird way. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:43, 6 February 2014 (EST)
:::It's just strange that they refuse to put Conker's homeland in it, I mean they accepted Isle O'Hags ([[Banjo]]'s homeland) on the page but not Conker's homeland. In [[Diddy Kong Racing]], it says that [[Diddy]] calls [[Squawks]] to deliver a message to Banjo and Conker for help, so it means that Banjo and Conker lives on the Mushroom World along with [[Mario]], [[DK]] and everyone else. --[[User:Metalex123|Metalex123]] ([[User talk:Metalex123|talk]]) 00:25, 5 March 2014 (EST)
::::This page kinda sucks anyway. I'll support its deletion. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:27, 5 March 2014 (EST)

== Skeptical ==

{{talk}}
"''Mushroom World (Japanese: きのこのせかい), also known as Mario World (Japanese: マリオワールド) is the name of the planet Mario and his friends reside on.''"

Any adequate evidence to back up this claim? I did kind of read the section above this one. I mean, there may be a throwaway joke in a cartoon or some figure of speech joke (what in Mushroom World...) referencing this world, but I can't find any other evidence. Hence "'''adequate'''".

As LinktheLefty said, "''to quote a 2007 discussion: 'Mushroom World seems to be the best name we have for Mario's world.' Yeah... So from what I gather, this has always been conjecture / fan-application from the start, and it's frankly a little annoying when you start to see people start to cite Mario Wiki over that reason.''"

{{User:Mario/sig}} 17:15, 15 February 2014 (EST)

==Overhaul page==

{{TPP}}

This page is a classic case of some users pushing their fanon vision of what the Mario universe is over quality and accurate content- and making the wiki a deserved laughingstock as a result. Common symptons of 2007-itis include:

*Barely any information on the "Mushroom World" as a physical space (because there's literally nothing to say on it - the planet Mario & co innhabits on is not a concept that's ever addressed or explored beside generic mentions).
*Huge, eye-searing list of unrelated things whose only link is "Place that appears in Mario(-related) games"
*List of "Things that are not the page subject".
*Inane, strange statements ("The planet is part of the [[Grand Finale Galaxy]]," lol, what?)

The page's existence is a fanon vehicle is made very obvious by the mention of Isle O' Hags (setting of the Banjo games), an holdover from the period where some users were pushing really hard to include Conker and Banjo content.

Not only is it badly-made it's actively misleading, as shown in the discussions above. "Mushroom World" is a proper, non-generic term (unlike the occasional mention of "earth" or "Mario's world") but it has a much more limited meaning- it refers to the Mushroom Kingdom + the places in SMB3 (SMB3) or as a synonym for Mushroom Kingdom (Japanese script of [[Paper Mario]]). Either way, it's clearly not the planet's name.

Tl;dr: The page is an useless and false mess but I think there may be some value in repurposing the page about the actual usage of the term.

'''Proposer''' {{User|Glowsquid}} <br>
'''Deadline''' March 19, 2014, 23:59 GMT

===Overhaul page to be about the Smb3/Paper Mario usage of the term===
#{{User|Glowsquid}}
#{{User|Time Turner}} Overhauling it will certainly be better than what's already here.
#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} To the Void with all fanon.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} I hate how this page is currently is. I fully support rewriting this.
#{{User|Mario}} The page horrendous in its current state.
#{{User|MegaKoopa}} A reliable source should never accept this!
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
#{{User|Bluetoad63}} Per the last line of the proposal.

===Keep as is===

===Comments===
What would actually be done to overhaul the article? I can assume that the nonsense will be removed, but what else will be done? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
:Well it refers to Mushroom Kingdom and Super Mario Bros. 3 places, plus the location in Paper Mario. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 12:14, 5 March 2014 (EST)
@@ Line 204: / Line 204: @@
 Why aren't there locations in Mario RPGs listed. I believe that those places count as places in the Mushroom World.
-[[File:DaisyMP8Official.png|50px]][[File:YoshiMP8art.png|50px]]The Awesome Yoshi Fan [[User:Tails777|Tails777]][[File:Tails Sticker.png|50px]][[File:Toad Artwork - Mario Party 6.png|50px]]
+[[File:DaisyMP8Official.png|50px]][[File:YoshiMP8art.png|50px]]The Awesome Yoshi Fan [[User:Tails777|Tails777]][[File:Tails Sticker.png|50px]][[File:Toadsmall.jpg|50px]]
 :Laziness. --[[User:Reversinator|Reversinator]] 15:45, 23 May 2011 (EDT)
 ::Then would it be O.K. if I added some of them?
-[[File:DaisyMP8Official.png|50px]][[File:YoshiMP8art.png|50px]]The Awesome Yoshi Fan [[User:Tails777|Tails777]][[File:Tails Sticker.png|50px]][[File:Toad Artwork - Mario Party 6.png|50px]]
+[[File:DaisyMP8Official.png|50px]][[File:YoshiMP8art.png|50px]]The Awesome Yoshi Fan [[User:Tails777|Tails777]][[File:Tails Sticker.png|50px]][[File:Toadsmall.jpg|50px]]
 :::Yeah {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
@@ Line 242: / Line 242: @@
 :::It's just strange that they refuse to put Conker's homeland in it, I mean they accepted Isle O'Hags ([[Banjo]]'s homeland) on the page but not Conker's homeland. In [[Diddy Kong Racing]], it says that [[Diddy]] calls [[Squawks]] to deliver a message to Banjo and Conker for help, so it means that Banjo and Conker lives on the Mushroom World along with [[Mario]], [[DK]] and everyone else. --[[User:Metalex123|Metalex123]] ([[User talk:Metalex123|talk]]) 00:25, 5 March 2014 (EST)
 ::::This page kinda sucks anyway. I'll support its deletion. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:27, 5 March 2014 (EST)
-:::::Sucked? I liked that page before they changed it into a SMB3 and Super Mario cartoon related page only... Why did they removed it??? --[[User:Metalex123|Metalex123]] ([[User talk:Metalex123|talk]]) 00:02, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
-::::::Because the bulk of this article, when it was written as if Mushroom World was an actual planet, was fan speculation. See discussions around, including the talk page proposal. Mushroom World has always been referred as the collective kingdoms in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' or just another euphemism for Mushroom Kingdom. Other referrals, frankly, are just pulled out of a collection of asses. The rest is just a poor attempt to make it up, to make it Mario's home planet, which contains Isle O'Hags for some silly reason. Saying that Panther Kingdom or Isle O'Hags is part of the Mushroom World is on the verge of fanfiction. We need to document facts, not write insane things or link insane things together to the point where it's largely based on speculation, misleading our readers and even having some people cite our wiki for this subpar job. {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:13, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 == Skeptical ==
+{{talk}}
 "''Mushroom World (Japanese: きのこのせかい), also known as Mario World (Japanese: マリオワールド) is the name of the planet Mario and his friends reside on.''"
@@ Line 255: / Line 255: @@
 ==Overhaul page==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|9-0}}
+{{TPP}}
 This page is a classic case of some users pushing their fanon vision of what the Mario universe is over quality and accurate content- and making the wiki a deserved laughingstock as a result. Common symptons of 2007-itis include:
@@ Line 282: / Line 283: @@
 #{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
 #{{User|Bluetoad63}} Per the last line of the proposal.
-#{{User|Jazama}} Per all.
 ===Keep as is===
@@ Line 289: / Line 289: @@
 What would actually be done to overhaul the article? I can assume that the nonsense will be removed, but what else will be done? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
 :Well it refers to Mushroom Kingdom and Super Mario Bros. 3 places, plus the location in Paper Mario. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 12:14, 5 March 2014 (EST)
-Why would this need a proposal to rewrite it? {{User:Epic Rosalina/sig}} 13:05, 19 March 2014 (EDT)
-:A good question, even if posed a bit late. Proposal or not, if it needs a rewrite, then a rewrite it shall get. {{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 21:30, 19 March 2014 (EDT)
-== Paper Mario references. ==
-Fizzle, here are some proof that Mushroom World is referred in Paper Mario.
-*"''Mushroom World is sometimes used in Paper Mario to refer to the game world. However, booting up the Japanese version, I can see that キノコワールド (Kinokowārudo) is not only indeed in the original script, but from what I can tell it actually replaces every instance of "Mushroom Kingdom"(!).''"
-*"''Mushroom World is actually interchangeable with Mushroom Kingdom here - basically meaning that the translators tried to localize it to the more-familiar Mushroom Kingdom, but missed a few spots (the timer on the pause menu and that one Boo NPC).''"
-So, "Mushroom World" in ''Paper Mario'' is mentioned in the Japanese script, and it's synonymous with Mushroom Kingdom. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:23, 23 March 2014 (EDT)
-:Fair enough! I think there needs to be a distinction between the two locations because SMB3 seems to imply that the Mushroom Kingdom is separate. Is the Mushroom Kingdom referenced in name in the Japanese game, and if so is it simply Toad Town? Is the US game simply too loose with the term?
-:I also saw the term "Kinoko no Sekai", but I wasn't sure where this name is from, because SMB3 uses Kinoko World and apparently so does Paper Mario. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 20:33, 23 March 2014 (EDT)
-::I'd like say that since Mushroom Kingdom is a gateway to those lands, it's technically part of the Mushroom World. Plus, the names are quite related, which backs up my point, but I could always be wrong.
-::In the Japanese version, ''Paper Mario'' substitutes "Mushroom World" over "Mushroom Kingdom", which means the two are interchangeable, hence "synonymous". I don't know what "Kinoko no Sekai" is derived from, but maybe it's a leftover from the old page, when the page used to be "This is Mario's home planet". {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:42, 23 March 2014 (EDT)
-:::At the moment the page lists that name as coming from SMB3, but it's actually Kinoko World in that game, at least according to what I've seen. Perhaps it is named as the other name in the Advance version. I will double check this later. If anyone knows, that would be helpful.
-:::As for Paper Mario, I feel like I need to check this out myself sometime too, I'm sure you're right, I just want to double check whether it is referring to the kingdom or not. It still might mean that the kingdom is just the castle and Toad Town and everything else is the Mushroom World (ala SMB3). But it might be just as you say, I'd have to see exact quotes. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 21:59, 23 March 2014 (EDT)
-::::"Kinoko" translates directly to "Mushroom", so as a conclusion, it's "Mushroom World", I'm assuming. Also, my view is that Mushroom World is collectively Mushroom Kingdom and the lands of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' around it. I mean, I don't see any "Mario and Luigi leave the Mushroom World and return to Mushroom Kingdom". The line from Yoshi's Safari is also further evidence. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:07, 23 March 2014 (EDT)
-:::::"Sekai" is world, so yeah, "Kinoko no sekai" = "Mushroom World" (or "World of Mushrooms"), and Link the Lefty said in an earlier section that it's from SMB3; "Kinoko World" could be a partial translation. But to me, the most interesting non-English name is the NA Spanish name: "Planeta de los Hongos" - "''Planet'' of the Mushrooms", [http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planeta as far as I can tell]. Really, this is a wonderful example of how Nintendo does not give a flying leap about keeping its terminology straight. Sometimes it's one Japanese name, sometimes it's another, and sometimes it's "Mario('s) World" instead. Sometimes it's synonymous with the Mushroom Kingdom, but sometimes it means the kingdom ''and'' the vicinity. In other languages, sometimes it's "World", sometimes it's "Planet"; sometimes spinoffs imply that the "Mushroom World" ''is'' the planet. So what is it? It's all of the above. The kingdom, the vicinity, and I'd argue for the planet too. The old article was a mess, but the new one could still do to lose the superfluous gallery of SMB3 lands and the plot summaries and stick to the basic "what does it mean" stuff - which should include at least ''something'' about the entire planet being one of the many meanings. At least, that's what I think. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 00:04, 24 March 2014 (EDT)
-::::::I suspect that name came from the cartoons and has just been left there. I'll do some research if I can find anything. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 23:05, 29 March 2014 (EDT)
-:::::My main query was which game or source uses the name "Kinoko no Sekai"? Because I'm pretty sure SMB3 simply uses Kinoko World in katakana in the manual. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 23:05, 29 March 2014 (EDT)
-::::::Which game uses "Planeta de los Hongos"? It could be a direct translation of the the article's old state. I put the gallery there to show the lands within the Mushroom World, so it's a visual help. There's not much to say other than "The Mushroom World is a collection of lands from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', and stopping there would sound a bit abrupt, so I added what purpose it serves: being the setting for Super Mario Bros. 3. I probably wouldn't argue for the planet simply because there is no further evidence other than the Spanish name, and the planet thing hasn't been explored in dialogues nor in later games such as Super Mario Galaxy. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:17, 30 March 2014 (EDT)
-:::::::I did some research and corrected a number of names, and it made me think most of them had just been backwards translated, probably including that Planeta one too. I can't find any source that uses "Kinoko no Sekai" either, even SMB3 uses the same name that Yoshi's Safari and Paper Mario use. Unless someone can source them, I'll just remove the other ones soon. Interestingly, the French and Russian names actually appear to be "Mushroom Kingdom", and I can't find the names listed here for those languages. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 18:52, 3 April 2014 (EDT)
-==Mario's Planet==
-Since Mushroom World is considered as just a term for a collection of many kingdoms associated with the Mushroom Kingdom, should there ever be an article of Mario's actual planet? Like "Mario's Planet" or "Mushroom Planet", since we don't know the name of the planet. Especially since the world of ''Mario'' was shown to be a separate planet from Earth in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and other games. It looked more like a blue planet. And the Planet of Mario shares the same locations of the spin-off series, ''Yoshi'', ''Donkey Kong'' and sometimes ''Wario''.
-So, how about an article of Mario's Planet, despite not having an actual name for it? Let's use a conjectural name for it... The '''Mushroom Planet''', '''Mario's Planet''', '''Planet of Mario''' or '''Mario World''' as the greater location of the whole ''Mario'' series and its spin-off series.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 14:03, 30 March 2014 (EDT)
-:There isn't much to say about it, though, much as [[Sun]] got [[Talk:Sun|deleted]] because without sufficient padding, it's a self-explanatory object. The bottom-line, there isn't much incentive to create an article entitled "Mario's Planet". {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:20, 30 March 2014 (EDT)
-:There is actually some indication that the world that Mario and everyone exist in really is just... Earth. Or a cartoony facsimile of it, anyway. Earth IS a mostly blue planet, after all. Recently, the Bermuda Triangle was referenced in Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze. Not a mainline Mario game, but interesting nonetheless. The whole idea of it being another dimension or planet really only comes from the cartoons and nowhere else as far as I am aware. The "Real World" thing is not part of main Mario canon and only exists in early American spinoff material (uh, and possibly the edutainment titles). Reminds me of how Sonic lived on "Mobius" in America and on Earth in Japan until later games applied the Japanese canon. Not saying it's EARTH as we know it, but I'm not sure it's particularly distinct from it either. Frankly though, there's so little information to go on, there's not much to say. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 21:19, 31 March 2014 (EDT)
-::The Bermuda Triangle (which is just one ordinary, yet highly-publicized location) could be just spoofed. Again, there isn't much to say about Mario's home world and there really nothing compelling enough to write an article about it in Mario Wiki. Nobody really writes articles about Link's planet, Pokemon Trainer lady's planet, or Kirby's planet, so Mario should be the same. {{User:Mario/sig}} 19:00, 3 April 2014 (EDT)
-:::I definitely agree, as an editor on the Zelda Wiki, the planet itself is not important. My only point is that in both instances they're just a "version" of Earth (note that the term "earth" is used in both games, though to refer to the ground) and in that respect there really isn't anything else to say, so I'm agreeing with you. In both series it has a sun, a moon, blue skies and oceans, and is otherwise much like Earth, except for all the video game stuff going on. Mario is effectively modern and Zelda is medieval(ish). Unless it receives a name, it's not important. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 20:48, 3 April 2014 (EDT)
-::::"Nobody writes about Kirby's planet." Actually [[wikirby:Planet Popstar|Planet Popstar]] they do.{{unsigned|YoshiCookie}}
-:::::Okay, you got me there, but it's still a stand-by level, just as Fox's planet gets its own page. Mario's planet is barely referred to anything, so I think it's pointless to have its own article. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:04, 15 April 2014 (EDT)
-:::::: Sure, because Earth has giant turtles that breath fire, dinosaurs with long tongues that turn everything they eat into eggs, and entire ''mountains'' floating around for no reason...I think not. Seriously, why is giving an article to a planet as complex as the Mushroom World/Planet/Whatever-Word-Nintendo-Decides-To-Use-Next a pointless idea? it's like if the LOTR Wiki didn't bother to make an article for all of Arda just because only two or three continents are relevant to the overall legendarium? It's still the most recurring setting, and it's a way to show that all these games share the same universe, instead of treating them all like a bunch of "Schrodinger's Towns" or whatever. I agree that it may not be relevant to include Hyrule or any of the other Zelda-related locations just because Link made some cameos here and there, but the Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, etc. games ''are'' canon with one another, or Nintendo would've said so otherwise, and
-::::::: Anyone remember when Shigeru Miyamoto once said ''A Link to the Past'' was set ''after'' the original two ''Zelda'' games on NES, or when Nintendo claimed the Donkey Kong from the arcade game was still the current Donkey Kong instead of being a younger Cranky Kong before they changed their mind? Nintendo seems to change their story on a dime, so it's almost pointless to bring up information only relevant to an older game like ''Yoshi's Safari''. The reference to "Mushroom World" might have easily been a typo/mistranslation and it was actually meant to be "Mushroom Land" or "Mushroom Kingdom". Or, at least, it might as well have been one or the other. Not to mention, I don't see the point in calling the planet "Mario World" even though there's far more to the overall world than just Mario. It's like if Tatooine was called "Planet Skywalker", or if the Shire was called "Bilboland". Plus, people might confuse it with "Mario Land" or ''Super Mario World''.
-::::::: Alternatively, if I'm free to speculate, perhaps the "Mushroom World" seen on the SMB3 world map ''is'' the entire world, and the places we've seen in other games (Dinosaur Land, DK Isles, etc.) and/or even in the cartoons/comics are simply regions/provinces of the eight (nine, if you count Warp Zone) continents featured in SMB 3. (i.e. Mushroom Kingdom is a part of Grass Land, Aqua Land and Lava Land from the ''Super Mario Bros. Super Show!'' are in Water Land, etc.). It's just that the continents you play through in SMB 3 are greatly compressed for gameplay's sake, like what was done in the ''Elder Scrolls'' games, where the game worlds are usually ''much'' smaller than how they're described in-universe, and settlements described in-universe as thriving cityscapes are depicted as being little bigger than a small village. [[Special:Contributions/65.29.237.60|65.29.237.60]] 15:55, 6 April 2015 (EDT)
-"Sure, because Earth has giant turtles that breath fire, dinosaurs with long tongues that turn everything they eat into eggs, and entire ''mountains'' floating around for no reason"
-Yes, and Earth doesn't have sentient trickster rabbits running around, American isn't populated by yellow-skined people with bulging eyes, Russia isn't invading the U.S as we discuss the deep Mario lores... etc. That doesn't mean Bugs Bunny, The Simpsons, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare or any number of work of fictions featuring clearly fictional creatures and events don't happen on a (fictional) Earth.
-"''it's like if the LOTR Wiki didn't bother to make an article for all of Arda just because only two or three continents are relevant to the overall legendarium?''"
-Arda is a named setting with (some vague pretense of) consistency. It's a specific concept that can be described. The "mario planet" isn't. Well yeah, the Mario games happen on an astral object. Just as we can infer the Mario characters use bipedal locomotion, breathe oxygen, or have a digestive system. What is there to write about? You could create a simple page that would be among the lines of "The Mario games happen on a planet. It has had various names. Here is a list of All The Places" (which would be pointless and is already done with categories), or we ''could'' attempt to speculate how it all ties together...
-except no, that would be bad. The wiki used to fanwank everything in the One True Timeline, it was awful, it's still getting mocked into some corner of the internet because of it, and it's something it has been wisely distanced itself from.
-"''It's still the most recurring setting, and it's a way to show that all these games share the same universe, instead of treating them all like a bunch of "Schrodinger's Towns" or whatever. I agree that it may not be relevant to include Hyrule or any of the other Zelda-related locations just because Link made some cameos here and there, but the Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, etc. games ''are'' canon with one another, ''"
-Fact is, the Mario/Wario/DK games are developed by completely different people who have different ideas about what they want to do, and are quite happy to ignore each other. You can say that they're all totally related, or you can ask [http://www.dkvine.com/ this] ''donkey kong lores'' fansite that's agressivelly against the notion. It isn't some Marvel-type shared universe that's Totally Internaly Consistent and Nintendo just hasn't revealed the keys to understanding it yet, and presenting it as such would not be accurate. The wiki can describe the games from the out-of-universe perspective of how the IPs branched off from each other, and the in-universe nods that do exist, but making definitive statements about how it all ties together is not what it should do. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 18:37, 6 April 2015 (EDT)
-:"Yes, and Earth doesn't have sentient trickster rabbits running around, American isn't populated by yellow-skined people with bulging eyes, Russia isn't invading the U.S as we discuss the deep Mario lores... etc. That doesn't mean Bugs Bunny, The Simpsons, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare or any number of work of fictions featuring clearly fictional creatures and events don't happen on a (fictional) Earth."
-: Are you seriously comparing Call of Duty to the Mario series? Yes, fictional and even weird stuff has happened in the cartoons/games you mentioned, but CoD and SMB are in two entirely different levels of fiction. Yes, I can accept Mushroom World/Mario World being an alternate version of Earth, but saying that all this crazy, cartoon-like, physics-defying stuff happening on our Earth would be no different than a fictional Russian-American war, portrayed in a semi-realistic game like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare? Sorry, I just don't see the relevance in such a comparison. It's like comparing ''Crash Bandicoot'' to ''Grand Theft Auto IV''.[[Special:Contributions/65.29.237.60|65.29.237.60]] 21:15, 6 April 2015 (EDT)
-::[[Talk:Earth#The Mushroom Planet|This]] is probably the closest confirmation of the series' planet in almost any official media, which honestly isn't too hard to gather from how they travel there in the anime, ''Super Show'' and ''Comics System''/''Adventure Books'', and we've seen a few instances where the term "Earth" and related locations is brought up casually in later games. If you ask me, the Earth article should be split between the overall planet and what the cartoons call "the real world" (as for the counterpart of that, the ''Mario is Missing!'' manual considers it "[[Mario World#Trivia|Mario World]]"). It would be a better solution than a conjectural, hypothetical, unconfirmed second planet. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:49, 7 April 2015 (EDT)
-::: How's that any less complicated? [[Special:Contributions/70.92.179.85|70.92.179.85]] 12:41, 27 January 2017 (EST)
-::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9wWsEPdDbA&t=9m How indeed.] [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:45, 10 July 2017 (EDT)
-== Why Banjo-Kazooie and Conker are a part of Mario's World ==
-There is a lot of misinformation and bias of opinion with regards to the canon-status of RareWare characters like Banjo and Conker, however I strongly believe that both properties are canon to the Mario universe. "Mushroom World" may refer to the worlds seen in Super Mario Bros 3, but the idea of a wiki page documenting the Mario 'universe' should not be tossed aside. The fact that Banjo and Conker are linked heavily with Donkey Kong, and originated from Diddy Kong Racing, is already enough to deem it canon to Mario's world. In other words, if the Red Hood is seen in a Batman comic, and Batman also interacts with Superman, that means the Red Hood is canon to the DC Universe and exists in Superman's world. There is a very clear link that even the developers of these games acknowledge.
-Mario's world doesn't really have any set rules in regards to visual design either, even with regards to it's own mainline games. Compare Isle Delfino to locations seen in other games; wildly different fauna, wildly different landscapes, wildly different characters and culture, etc. It's not far-fetched to conclude that Banjo and Conker also reside in the same world, it's not "fan fiction" to acknowledge this.
-I firmly request that a new page be created and approved that is reminiscent of the former "Mushroom World" page prior to it's overhaul.
-{{unsigned|172.98.67.26}}
-:We cover [[Banjo]], [[Kazooie]], and [[Conker the Squirrel]] themselves, but their worlds have nothing to do with Mario outside of subtle references. They may be connected, but so is Hyrule and the Kanto Region, and we don't cover those. They fall outside of our coverage. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:45, July 30, 2020 (EDT)
-It goes beyond subtle reference and cameos, thus it can not be compared to any previous Zelda or Pokemon easter egg or confirmed non-canon crossovers like Super Smash Bros. These are actual, playable characters found in a mainline Donkey Kong title, including references found in both external material and in the games themselves. At one point there were going to be photos of Donkey Kong in Banjo-Kazooie, and a Banjo shower stall in Donkey Kong's treehouse in DK64. These references were removed, but the intention behind them still remains. I just find it puzzling why this connection is not mentioned more in this wiki when it's rather explicit. It's not just fan fiction or conjecture, not at all. Under the same conditions, there is no reason for the WarioWare or Wario Land games to be covered on this wiki, since they are very far removed from traditional Mario fare.
-{{unsigned|172.98.67.26}}
-:Well, we have [[List_of_Mario_references_in_Nintendo_video_games#Banjo-Kazooie_series]] and [[List_of_Mario_references_in_third-party_video_games#Banjo-Kazooie_series]] that can be expanded to include any missing information. The two series are certainly connected, but the characters being ''Mario'' franchise characters is not really established.
-:Wario is an establish ''Mario'' character.
-:Also, check out [[jiggywikki:|Jiggywikki]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 21:38, July 30, 2020 (EDT)
-::Remember to sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>.{{User:DarkNight/sig}} 21:42, July 30, 2020 (EDT)
-:I realized that in one point of time you used to cover Banjo and Conker. [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/2/29/20110427232410%21Importancetree.png] {{User:Wynn Liaw/sig}} 08:48, July 31, 2020 (EDT)
-But you can also make the case that Wario shouldn't be covered outside of the Mario spin-off titles, since his games are about as connected to Mario as Banjo and Conker are. You can even include the Donkey Kong Country games if I'm frank, those have little relation to Mario aside from Donkey Kong himself. It can go either way, right?. I just find it strange to eschew Rare's characters when many pages of this wiki are just as "out there". If a place like the Metro Kingdom exists within Mario's world, I don't think Spiral Mountain is a stretch. [[Special:Contributions/172.98.67.27|172.98.67.27]] 09:46, July 31, 2020 (EDT)
-So some backstory on this stuff: Back in the days (as in, literally a decade ago), there was split opinions over wheter the wiki should give full coverage to the Banjo and Conker video games. Eventually the compromise was to create two "Banjo series" and "Conker series" page that were literally just a big list of all the games/characters/items and those games, and basically they were huge piles of shit and there was a sentiment that either we should do it properly, or not at all. The later side won out.
-The main argument for it (and the one cited on [[Mariowiki:Coverage]]), and one I think is very valid, is that doing this is treating the two franchises as "Donkey Kong spinoffs" which is not really what happened: both Banjo and Conker were games that were in development for the Nintendo 64, they were intended to be released sometimes in 97 but were delayed, and because of that, Diddy Kong Racing took their intended spot as Rare's big holidays game and they decided to include the two characters to promote their upcoming games, although after DKR was released, Rare would decide to delay Conker and retool it in a very different form. They're more like guest stars It would be like calling Fire Emblem the Binding Blade as a "Super Smash Bros spinoff" because Roy showed up in there before his debut title (and yeah I realize the comparison is not 1:1, both because Fire Emblem is an established franchise and Smash Bros. is explictely billed as a crossover - but I think it's close enough).
-The Wario comparison is not a good one at all: Wario was created as a character whose everything is explicitely derivative of Mario, he still regularly shows up in Mario games (while both characters discussed here were removed from their own debut game, presumably because Nintendo and/or Rare and its current corporate owner did not want to show the franchises as being related) and while yes, the Wario franchise is pretty far removed from the Mario games in a lot of ways, the first Wario Land game was directly branded as a continuation of the Super Mario Land series and involves characters and concept from the Mario universe in its storyline. It's not the same situation at all.
-Furthermore, giving Banjo and Conker coverage leads to a weird rabbit-hole of including things that were never promoted or created as derivatives of the ''Super Mario'' games, but that share some sublte connections. Stuff like "Well, if you include Banjo and Conker, then why don't you give full coverage to For The Frog The Bell Tolls because [[Mad Scienstein|Dr. Awero Stain]] is a major supporting character in Wario Land games?" or "Why don't you give Rhythm Heaven full coverage since recent entries of it and both WarioWare all but say they're in the same fictional universe?". While both scenarios would be hugely entertaining to me, there ''is'' such a thing as casting too wide of a net.
-Also, if you're going to invoke authorial intent, Conker's creator Chris Seavor [https://twitter.com/GoryDetail/status/1241106477135298566 recently poo-poo'ed] the idea of Banjo and Conker being in the same universe (and thus, by extension, any other franchises they're theorized sharing a fictional universe with). So yeah. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 09:54, July 31, 2020 (EDT)
-Fun fact, Diddy Kong Racing's events are mentioned in Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts, and Mario is referred to in passing as well. Just because Conker's Bad Fur Day may or may not exist in Mario's world, does not mean Banjo or Conker's earlier incarnation does not. [[Special:Contributions/162.219.176.130|162.219.176.130]]
-:Regardless, that does not change the fact that DKR is a crossover with pre-existing ideas, and Banjo and Conker are ''certainly'' not "spinoff" franchises to it just because it ''happened'' to be released first (please recall the principle of production order that get fans of TV shows riled up sometimes). They each get a page, the rest of the respective franchise doesn't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])
-::Also, we're not going to cover every video game series that mentions the Mario series as part of "Mario's World", otherwise we'd have to not only fully cover [[List of Mario references in Nintendo video games|every game series here]] and [[List of Mario references in third-party video games|here]], but every franchise represented in Smash. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:56, August 7, 2020 (EDT)
-There are a lot of assumptions being made here, and it does not change the fact that it 'is' a crossover linking all three franchises. Regardless of any circumstances that occurred during the game's development, from a canon point of view this crossover did indeed happen and has been referenced in subsequent games. This is irrefutable. The storyline itself states that Diddy Kong contacted Banjo and Conker directly, if this isn't a clear link between the Donkey Kong and Banjo franchises at the very least, I don't know what is. This can not be compared to "cameos" or "Smash Bros" because those are two wildly different things. I believe the point remains valid that the Banjo-Kazooie games should be considered a part of the Super Mario universe like Wario and Yoshi, at least for the games released on Nintendo consoles. If lack of quality was the primary concern behind the removal of the former "Mushroom World" page, then it's clear that a higher quality alternative should be pursued rather then forming a laundry list of excuses why it shouldn't be. [[Special:Contributions/184.75.210.66|184.75.210.66]]
-:[[MarioWiki:Canonicity|There is no canon]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:07, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
-::Additionally, given it's been stated that Conker and Banjo are not the same "universe," it could just as easily be said that these are a ''different'' Banjo and Conker. Both franchises broke the fourth wall all the time, and ''Nuts & Bolts'' metaphorically demolished its foundation. The continuity for that game and every game in each of these franchises is essentially multiple-choice; note that ''Banjo Pilot'' simply ''can't'' fit into that frranchise's continuity due to its inconsistencies. Regardless, as I said, it's multiple choice, so trying to say "same universe" when they officially aren't is disingenuous at best. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:10, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
-:::Did you read Glowsquid's second-to-last paragraph? Even if Banjo and Conker did share the same "universe" with Mario that wouldn't be a good reason to cover their franchises in full on the Mario Wiki since they don't regularly interact with the rest of the series. Unlike Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and Wario, who were specifically created for the Mario series and regularly continue to appear in Mario games along with characters who first appeared in those spinoffs like Kamek and Diddy Kong, Conker hasn't appeared in a single Mario-related game since he first appeared in Diddy Kong Racing, and it took Banjo over two decades to appear in another game alongside Mario characters. And like Doc said, Banjo and Conker weren't created for Diddy Kong Racing, they were included as "special guests" and it became their first appearance by a scheduling fluke. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:29, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
-"This can not be compared to "cameos" or "Smash Bros" because those are two wildly different things." I mean, if you had actually checked out the link I posted, you'd have seen someone responded to Seavor with a pic of the Diddy Kong Racing character select screen, to which he respond with [https://twitter.com/GoryDetail/status/1241110643408867328 Are all these from the same universe?"]" and a pic of the SSB Ultimate character select screen. Which indicates that, at least from the position of Conker's creator (and if he isn't qualified to speak about what Conker's fictional universe relates to, who is?), they're infact, The Same Thing.
-Also, I'm writing this not because I think it'll convince our anon friend over here (it certainly won't) but because it's something I have thought about and it's something I want to refer back to when there are future talks about coverage, and basically I want to expand on what I said about "casting too wide of a net". And the ''tl:dr'' of it is: The wiki isn't ''really'' about the "Mario fictional universe", or rather it's not primarily about that, and rather it is about ''Mario'' and its derived (and partner) series as a real-word media franchise.
-One of our policy page (I think it was Chronology?) had a statement among the lines "We must remember that [[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]] is the root of everything we created" and while worded in a corny way, the gist still holds true. The Mario and Donkey Kong characters debuted in the arcade game, Mario soon became popular and spawned a big media franchise, which the wiki is ostensibly about. Then, a good decade later, the Donkey Kong character (actually a separate character, but irrelevant in IP terms and a distinction Nintendo does not always strictly adher to) was rebooted with his own successful video game that did away with pretty much all the old arcade trappings and was distinct from the Mario games of the time. And certainly one could say, ''Donkey Kong'' (or more precisely ''Donkey Kong '''Country''''') is a franchise in its own right and shouldn't be seen as a spin-off subordinate to the Mario series - that's a very fair and valid opinion, but, the shared origin in the 1981 arcade game means it make some sense for a website that call itself "Super Mario Wiki" to also document Donkey Kong stuff. Likewise with Wario, Yoshi etc. who were created ''for'' Mario games, were major actors in those and then spawned their own franchise with varying degress of cross-reference back to the "main" Mario franchise.
-I gave Rhythm Heaven as an example of things going too far: Rhythm Heaven includes a lot of clues it's set in the same fictional universe as the WarioWare series (including both Rhythm Heaven Fever and RH Megamix having modes where you play as WarioWare characters) and in turn the two most recent WarioWare games include a lot of cameos from Rhythm Heaven characters and location. Thus, if only fictional connections mattered, it would only make sense to extend the wiki's coverage to the Rhythm Heave series as a whole, right?
-But the deal, Rhythm Heaven was not created as a spin-off to WarioWare, or anything else. It started as its own thing (albeit with some quick nods to WarioWare as a result of its shared staff and style), and slowly over time, the two franchises would increasingly reference each-other. But while you can say RH and WW are set in the same fictional universe, you '''can't''' reasonably say Rhythm Heaven is a "Mario spin-off" or even a "WarioWare spin-off", and retroactively making articles for all the Rhythm Heaven games and characters would be a weird and messy leap to make. And by that process, neither are Banjo or Conker.  --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:26, August 11, 2020 (EDT)
-Thought I'd add this to the conversation: https://www.dkvine.com/?p=features&page=what_dku
-{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
-:That is a fan-made construct through and through. It’s not relevant here. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:33, August 25, 2021 (EDT)
-I disagree, I think it holds a lot of credibility since Diddy Kong Racing is an official Nintendo release, and contains characters (like Banjo/Conker) that we would have considered unrelated otherwise. The Donkey Kong connection is also alluded to in the official reveal trailer of Banjo and Kazooie in Smash Bros Ultimate. Not to say that Conker's Bad Fur Day is canon to the Mario Universe (it's not), but I believe that Banjo-Kazooie IS, as well as Conker's original incarnation from Diddy Kong Racing. They are both allies of Donkey and Diddy Kong. I get that there is no official description of Mario's world, nor any detailed map of it's continent and landscape, but I do suggest more detail be added to Banjo's page covering his games, as they should be considered "canon".{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
-:Anything fan-made doesn't hold any credibility at all to us. Also, if the games themselves are not within our coverage, then we don't need to fully cover them on Banjo's article either. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 16:38, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-::I suggest reading Glowsquid's comment regarding our coverage and how "canon" fits into that. (Also, the Mario franchise [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|has no canon]].) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:33, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-:::"There are a lot of assumptions being made here, and it does not change the fact that it 'is' a crossover linking all three franchises." Pretty interesting you said assumptions are being made (including the assumption there is a "Super Mario Universe"; there isn't), because I think what Glowsquid is saying is just matter of fact sort of thing. If anything I think you're connecting really loose dots that don't really exist and referring to other constructs from other fans that carry little relevance to the wiki. Due to the shaky foundation, you simply cannot write a quality article that really reflects what MarioWiki is set to do, document things, leave out speculation. "This can not be compared to "cameos" or 'Smash Bros' because those are two wildly different things." This one looks like a circular argument by assertion and special pleading? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:25, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-I'm not talking about strictly fan-based speculation, I'm going off of official references.I think it's pretty foolish to assume that the Mario universe has no real continuity, it very clearly does in most games not directly produced by Miyamoto. Especially in the RPG games which have clear sequels. Just because there isn't an official Nintendo timeline doesn't mean that these games don't have any continuity to them. Even Mario Odyssey references previous encounters with Bowser, such as the ones in Super Mario World and Mario 64. The way I see it, Banjo deserves a quality article the same way other Donkey Kong characters do. Because for all intents and purposes, he became a Donkey Kong spinoff character, and the first two games were released on a Nintendo platform. No wild fan speculation needed here.{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
-:First, please sign your comments with four ~ at the end. Second, although I wasn't part of this discussion before, it looks to me like everyone else here has made it clear enough that Banjo is not a Donkey Kong character, nor is his series even a Donkey Kong spinoff. At this point, this discussion is just going in circles. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:35, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-Not at all, I haven't recieved a single reasonable explanation why Banjo shouldn't be considered a DK character. I hear claims of "fan speculation", yet in a twist of irony the explanations I'm getting could also be considered "fan speculation". Banjo was always intended as a DK spinoff, and in fact there was even going to be more DIRECT ties with a photo of DK himself being in Banjo's house. The intention from the start was to link these two franchises together, and that coupled with the other official references I mentioned earlier, confirms Banjo and his games as canon. At least those not exclusive to Microsoft consoles. [[Special:Contributions/172.83.40.74|172.83.40.74]] 19:47, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-:Is there any valid proof of this, directly from the makers of the games themselves rather than a fan-vine? If so, please link it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:51, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-:A photo in the house ''is'' a cameo, as is the supposed cut easter egg of DK appearing as part of the puzzle minigame. Banjo-Kazooie had [[Jiggywikki:Dream: Land of Giants|a very long and varied development period]] (which I may add long predated Diddy Kong Racing's development period), and at no point was it a "spinoff" of DK any more than Banjo-Tooie is a spinoff of Sabre Wulf. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:24, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-::”Banjo was always intended as a DK spinoff, and in fact there was even going to be more DIRECT ties with a photo of DK himself being in Banjo's house.”
-::Fictionally unrelated games sharing cameos of one another isn’t uncommon.
-::”The intention from the start was to link these two franchises together”
-::Even if there was, the IPs are quite far removed by now. Ergo, the Banjo-Kazooie series doesn’t warrant coverage. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:38, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-:::You're not really looking at the perspective of the game designers. They do put nods to earlier games for players to pick up on the nostalgia. It's not a comment on continuity as much as a game sprinkling references to other games a lot of players have played. Sure, they reference sometimes, but this doesn't point to any solid ground for an established timeline. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:24, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
-There is less evidence to suggest that Banjo 'isnt' connected, than ones that support his inclusion in the greater Mario universe. Another few tidbits I missed was the "Gnawty" character being included in Click Clock Wood in Banjo-Kazooie, and Banjo's likely relation with the "Brothers' Bear" in DKC3. Sharing a similar naming scheme. With all of this evidence and more, I feel it's foolish not to include Banjo in a greater capacity on this Wiki. I feel the intention both during and after the development of Diddy Kong Racing was to link the two franchises together, as a sort of DK "Expanded Universe" of sorts. [[Special:Contributions/71.19.249.33|71.19.249.33]] 20:35, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
-:Donkey Kong appears on ''The Simpsons'' several times. This is enough evidence to support that Kongo Jungle was intended to be in Springfield and thus Homer should get a page, right? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:02, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
-::I think yet another point you're missing is that Banjo is not a Nintendo property. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:10, September 1, 2021 (EDT)