Editing Talk:Mushroom Retainer

Aren't they the same as [[Toad (species)|Toads]]? [[Image:Mayor.gif]]<span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

:Nope. These are specific goverment officials. They are of the Toad species though. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

I don't get it. If Mushroom Retainers are Toads, why don't we just merge this page into a new section of [[Toad (species)]]. {{User:SKmarioman/sig}}

The same reason we don't merge all the Paper Mario Goombas into [[Goomba]].--{{User|Knife}} 00:08, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

=="Vulgar Gesture"==
Who put that there? The sprite was ''never'' intended to show the Mushroom Retainer giving the player the middle finger. '''''NEVER'''''. Nor could it be a glitch in the programing, because if those pixels appear in non-glitched, non-hacked circumstances, '''then its probably intentional.''' Aside from that, the section has a few typos. Shall I delete the section? [[User:GreenKoopa|GreenKoopa-Don&#39;t jump on mee!]] 20:45, 23 January 2008 (EST)

:Of course, well, it's already deleted. Also, the bad graphics of those days made the sprite look like that. [[Image:Paperjorgesp.png]] [[User:Paper Jorge|Paper Jorge]] [[Image:Paperjorgesp.png]]

== Terminology ==

''[...]Mushroom Retainer is intended to be an early localized name for the Toads as a species, along with Mushroom People.''

Provided that this is true, wouldn't that mean Mushroom Retainers should redirect to [[Toad (species)]]? Are there any good amount of instances where this is actually a position and not another name for the Toad species? {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:53, 19 October 2014 (EDT)

:It seems like Mushroom Retainer was the original localization for "[http://legendsoflocalization.com/super-mario-bros/names/#retain-this キノピオ]" ([[Toad (species)|Kinopio]]), whereas Mushroom People was the equivalent of "[http://legendsoflocalization.com/super-mario-bros/manuals/#game-story キノコ達 / キノコー族]" (Kinoko-tachi / Kinoko-ichizoku, or Mushroom Group / Mushroom Tribe), similar to how the opposing side was called both the Koopa and Turtle Tribe. As for a good amount of instances where it's a position - I don't think it's ever referenced in the games or manuals ever again, but the character Toad is usually described as "''the'' royal mushroom retainer" in both the Nintendo Comics System and the Nintendo Adventure Books. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, 21 October 2014 (EDT)

::The ''SMB2'' manual has "(Mushroom Retainer)" printed under [[Toad]]'s name in the character list. More obliquely, the character was described as "As Princess Peach's retainer" in his ''Super Mario Sluggers'' profile, with his ''Mario Kart 8'' bio reading "Being a loyal retainer to Princess Peach..." - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 13:02, 21 October 2014 (EDT)
:::Does that make it worthy of its own page? At best, "retainer" is used as a title, but that's something we don't really do in this wiki (plumber and Master, to name two). The way the page is stating is as if it's a special group of Toads. It could be ''all'' Toads after all. {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:15, 21 October 2014 (EDT)
::::Oh, I'm not arguing for keeping the page split: I'm actually rather neutral on the matter (for now) - I was just providing examples of where it ''has'' popped up in games, only one of which was explicit anyway. Either way, if you do want to split it, I think a TPP would be the best route to go given how long the page's been around and the vagueness of ''Mario'' terminology in general. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:35, 21 October 2014 (EDT)
:::::I'm not going with Talk Page Proposal just yet. I just want some more information and a bit more of a discussion rather than 0/1 voting, although I can't really think of a great reason to keep this page. Most parts of it can be easily a part of Toad (species) article, and from the looks of it, Mushroom Retainer is more of a generic title ("retainer") rather than a specific group of Toads as the article implies. Let me think a little more. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:57, 21 October 2014 (EDT)

== Merge Mushroom Retainer to [[Toad (species)]] ==

{{TPP}}
See above discussion. But, to sum it up, here:
*Early evidence suggests that Mushroom Retainer is merely a localized name for Toads.
*Hardly any usage of this term, even in nonvideo game media, aside from Toad's being called "''the'' royal mushroom retainer".
*The closest thing the term is used is just a generic title of "retainer".

The way the article is written implies that Mushroom Retainer is a specific group of Toads when evidence (and the lack of it) suggests that any given Toad in Mushroom Kingdom is a Mushroom Retainer. Despite its existence since 2006, basically near the birth of this wiki, there is little reason for this article to be standalone. It's like Mushroom Tribe's having its own article.

At best, Mushroom Retainer is used as a title, which is something we don't even have articles on the wiki. "Retainer" is nothing special, so I think it's on the same boat as [[Master (title)]] ([[Talk:Master (title)|talk]]) and [[plumber]] ([[Talk:Plumber|talk]]). And it you haven't seen the red link and the talk pages, both happen to be deleted.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 7, 2014 23:59 GMT 

===Merge===
#{{User|Mario}} This is supposed to be an early localization term. Otherwise, this term has been rarely used, and the way the term is handled here, I believe it's incorrect. The best thing to do would be merging this with [[Toad (species)]].
#{{User|Koopakoolklub}} Makes sense to me.
#{{User|Tsunami}} Per what is written the article. "''[...] Mushroom Retainer '''is intended to be an early localizated name for Toad''' [...]''" If they are Toads, but the name "Toad" wasn't made yet, why this deserves an article? Per Mario then.
#{{User|Boo4761}} Why does this need an article? This term is barely used, they are the same friggin Toads from the other games, just look at the infobox in the Toad article.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all. This is pretty much the equivalent of a Princess Toadstool article.
#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} Sound as far as I can tell.
#{{User|DaisyLuigi}} Their old name WAS Mushroom Retainer, but Nintendo now calls them Toads, their modern name
#{{User|Superfiremario}} Per Mario.
#{{User|Theshinymew64}} Basically what everyone else said.

===Stay===
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}}: I always thought Mushroom retainers were a branch of elite Toads involved and failing at gaurding the castle.  I think normal and retainer toads appear in Super Mario RPG.

====Comments====
@Toadbrigade5: That's exactly how the article is misleading. Exact quote from me: "The way the article is written implies that Mushroom Retainer is a specific group of Toads when evidence (and the lack of it) suggests that any given Toad in Mushroom Kingdom is a Mushroom Retainer." {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:19, 25 October 2014 (EDT)

How about we do merge them, but keep the Retainer thing similar to the Toad Guard section?--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 18:17, 27 October 2014 (EDT)
:Yeah, why not, if I think I know what you're talking about. But this doesn't need a standalone article nevertheless. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:21, 27 October 2014 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-Aren't they the same as [[Toad (species)|Toads]]? [[Image:MayorPenguinPM.png]]<span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>
+Aren't they the same as [[Toad (species)|Toads]]? [[Image:Mayor.gif]]<span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>
 :Nope. These are specific goverment officials. They are of the Toad species though. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]
@@ Line 26: / Line 26: @@
 == Merge Mushroom Retainer to [[Toad (species)]] ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|13-1|merge}}
+{{TPP}}
 See above discussion. But, to sum it up, here:
 *Early evidence suggests that Mushroom Retainer is merely a localized name for Toads.
@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 #{{User|Superfiremario}} Per Mario.
 #{{User|Theshinymew64}} Basically what everyone else said.
-#{{User|Iggy Koopa777}} Per all. "Mushroom Retainer" was Toad's original Localized name so it makes sense to merge (Plus we did not do that with Peach and Pauline)
-#{{User|Magikrazy}} I never once saw this name used in a game. Not once. It does not warrant an article. Per all.
-#{{User|Madz the Penguin}} Do Bowser and King Koopa have separate articles? How about Mario and Jumpman? Princess Peach, the princess, and Toadstool? If they don't have separate articles, then why do Toads and Mushroom Retainers have separate articles? The last time it was used was Super Mario RPG, I think. The term is now obsolete.
-#{{User|Viper26}} This can have its own section on the Toad article.
 ===Stay===