Editing Talk:Morty Mole
From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.
| Latest revision | Your text | ||
| Line 8: | Line 8: | ||
==Split Mega Mole from Morty Mole== | ==Split Mega Mole from Morty Mole== | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
These need split up again. the only similarities between the two is that they're large Monty Moles and have three strands of hair, but neither of them even have the same design as Monty Mole. | These need split up again. the only similarities between the two is that they're large Monty Moles and have three strands of hair, but neither of them even have the same design as Monty Mole. | ||
| Line 23: | Line 22: | ||
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per proposal. | #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Lord Bowser}} Per my comment below. | #{{User|Lord Bowser}} Per my comment below. | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} While the recent re-merge should've definitely been discussed first, I believe it's more beneficial to group them in the same article. Even if the names changed in both English and Japanese, take a look at just about any of the "big" enemy articles - nomenclature has irrevocably changed over time depending on debut even across regions, yet they're considered the same subject, so naming isn't necessarily the defining indicator. Take Big Goomba, for instance - it's been under several names in past appearances and gained different behaviors (in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series and all styles of ''Super Mario Maker'', they notably split into two Goombas when stomped). Having enemies that were clearly differentiated by size under one umbrella makes it far easier to keep track of these things. Additionally, one article makes it straightforward to include the ''Super Mario Maker'' version of the big Monty Mole, which looks more like a Mega Mole (albeit without shades, but the ''Super Mario World'' artwork suggests the sprites' "closed eyes" were originally meant to be interpreted as shades) but acts more like a Morty Mole (with one jump to defeat instead of two like in ''Super Mario 3D Land''). As for the design difference, don't forget that ''Super Mario 3D Land'' also used a non-standard palette swap for the Fire Piranha Plant. Overall, I think the differences can be construed as part of a long-absent enemy's reintroduction into the series | #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} While the recent re-merge should've definitely been discussed first, I believe it's more beneficial to group them in the same article. Even if the names changed in both English and Japanese, take a look at just about any of the "big" enemy articles - nomenclature has irrevocably changed over time depending on debut even across regions, yet they're considered the same subject, so naming isn't necessarily the defining indicator. Take Big Goomba, for instance - it's been under several names in past appearances and gained different behaviors (in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series and all styles of ''Super Mario Maker'', they notably split into two Goombas when stomped). Having enemies that were clearly differentiated by size under one umbrella makes it far easier to keep track of these things. Additionally, one article makes it straightforward to include the ''Super Mario Maker'' version of the big Monty Mole, which looks more like a Mega Mole (albeit without shades, but the ''Super Mario World'' artwork suggests the sprites' "closed eyes" were originally meant to be interpreted as shades) but acts more like a Morty Mole (with one jump to defeat instead of two like in ''Super Mario 3D Land''). As for the design difference, don't forget that ''Super Mario 3D Land'' also used a non-standard palette swap for the Fire Piranha Plant. Overall, I think the differences can be construed as part of a long-absent enemy's reintroduction into the series. | ||
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per LinkTheLefty | #{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per LinkTheLefty | ||
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} Enemy design changes doesn't constitute different species. Also mechanics of enemies vary between games, such as [[Koopa Troopa]]s in ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and ''[[Super Mario 64]]''. They run away in SM64, which never happened in SMW. Should we split that distinction? No. Their [[Green Shell|shell]]s also do something different in those games. Mario can surf on shells, even on [[lava]], in SM64 while trying to do that in SMW means the shell gets pushed and can sink in lava. A split is necessary in this case, right? No again. Per all. | #{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} Enemy design changes doesn't constitute different species. Also mechanics of enemies vary between games, such as [[Koopa Troopa]]s in ''[[Super Mario World]]'' and ''[[Super Mario 64]]''. They run away in SM64, which never happened in SMW. Should we split that distinction? No. Their [[Green Shell|shell]]s also do something different in those games. Mario can surf on shells, even on [[lava]], in SM64 while trying to do that in SMW means the shell gets pushed and can sink in lava. A split is necessary in this case, right? No again. Per all. | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
| Line 42: | Line 36: | ||
I would also like to point out that them being the same is nothing more than speculation, which is not allowed here, especially not in that capacity. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 14:41, 19 July 2017 | I would also like to point out that them being the same is nothing more than speculation, which is not allowed here, especially not in that capacity. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 14:41, 19 July 2017 | ||
:As a matter of fact, the fact that the whole thing's based off of speculation should allow them to be split without a proposal. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 02:47, 20 July 2017 | :As a matter of fact, the fact that the whole thing's based off of speculation should allow them to be split without a proposal. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 02:47, 20 July 2017 | ||
@Lord Bowser: I'm not sure if that case is really comparable, since that enemy (and the [[Pale Piranha|other]] referred to) appeared in the same game together, and an RPG at that. Here, it's one big Monty Mole variant from an older 2D platformer and one big Monty Mole variant from a newer 3D platformer over two decades later. The major difference being that there are separate reactions to being jumped on, which can occur between 2D and 3D platformers (for example, Piranha Plants can be jumped on in most 3D platformers, whereas they couldn't in 2D ones) or just as easily over time (the aforementioned Big Goomba). | @Lord Bowser: I'm not sure if that case is really comparable, since that enemy (and the [[Pale Piranha|other]] referred to) appeared in the same game together, and an RPG at that. Here, it's one big Monty Mole variant from an older 2D platformer and one big Monty Mole variant from a newer 3D platformer over two decades later. The major difference being that there are separate reactions to being jumped on, which can occur between 2D and 3D platformers (for example, Piranha Plants can be jumped on in most 3D platformers, whereas they couldn't in 2D ones) or just as easily over time (the aforementioned Big Goomba). | ||
@Doc von Schmeltwick: The Mega Monty Mole in ''Mario Party: Star Rush'' isn't a species, but apparently one Monty Mole that was enlarged by Kamek (though I'm not sure if that was originally the case in ''Mario Party 10''). It's a reference to the transformed ''Yoshi's Island'' bosses, which were always "Big (Mega) [Enemy]" instead of various names in Japanese. That and similar bosses could be considered their own characters, but I suppose they are adequately covered by their minigame articles right now, so it's possibly deemed unnecessary. Meanwhile, due to [[Talk:Super Mario Maker#Proposal: what to do about all those sub-enemies.3F|this]] proposal keeping the "unique" enemy variations from having their own article, taking a third option for the ''Super Mario Maker'' version of the big Monty Mole isn't wholly feasible if the article splits; each "existing" enemy variation goes to their respective obvious equivalent, but having two articles means it won't really belong to either one (or may nebulously shift between them depending on any given editor's preference, which was a preventable concern with a certain other subject I mentioned above). Therefore, splitting the article will result in some poorer coverage, which isn't ideal. Regarding the Monty Mole and Mega Mole design differences, the sprite work in ''Super Mario World'' is a little rough around the edges since it was an early SNES launch title (see the Koopalings' in-game palettes, wherein nearly all of them completely differ from artwork before and since). There isn't concept artwork of the Mega Mole - it's probably just intended to be a magnified Monty Mole like ''Super Mario Maker'' eventually did, but that last part is only speculation. Bottom line is I don't think it very much serves us for the content of big enemies to be strict, otherwise we'd have multiple more big enemy articles based on exact size/name/behavior/appearance changes that'd be difficult to manage. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:05, 20 July 2017 (EDT) | @Doc von Schmeltwick: The Mega Monty Mole in ''Mario Party: Star Rush'' isn't a species, but apparently one Monty Mole that was enlarged by Kamek (though I'm not sure if that was originally the case in ''Mario Party 10''). It's a reference to the transformed ''Yoshi's Island'' bosses, which were always "Big (Mega) [Enemy]" instead of various names in Japanese. That and similar bosses could be considered their own characters, but I suppose they are adequately covered by their minigame articles right now, so it's possibly deemed unnecessary. Meanwhile, due to [[Talk:Super Mario Maker#Proposal: what to do about all those sub-enemies.3F|this]] proposal keeping the "unique" enemy variations from having their own article, taking a third option for the ''Super Mario Maker'' version of the big Monty Mole isn't wholly feasible if the article splits; each "existing" enemy variation goes to their respective obvious equivalent, but having two articles means it won't really belong to either one (or may nebulously shift between them depending on any given editor's preference, which was a preventable concern with a certain other subject I mentioned above). Therefore, splitting the article will result in some poorer coverage, which isn't ideal. Regarding the Monty Mole and Mega Mole design differences, the sprite work in ''Super Mario World'' is a little rough around the edges since it was an early SNES launch title (see the Koopalings' in-game palettes, wherein nearly all of them completely differ from artwork before and since). There isn't concept artwork of the Mega Mole - it's probably just intended to be a magnified Monty Mole like ''Super Mario Maker'' eventually did, but that last part is only speculation. Bottom line is I don't think it very much serves us for the content of big enemies to be strict, otherwise we'd have multiple more big enemy articles based on exact size/name/behavior/appearance changes that'd be difficult to manage. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:05, 20 July 2017 (EDT) | ||
:The smaller sprites in SMW were horrible, yes. But it was pretty clear that Monty Mole was intended to have some design differences from Mega Mole, like Mega Mole's hair, smug expression, and vastly different attack pattern. Every other "Big" enemy has shared its attack pattern with the "normal" variant, with the only differences being ones that regard immunities or shaking the ground. Which means Mega Mole is different from a simple "magnification" of Monty Mole. And again, the only way to conclude that Mega and Morty are the same is with some rather large leaps of logic, which is still not allowed. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 03:10, 20 July 2017 | :The smaller sprites in SMW were horrible, yes. But it was pretty clear that Monty Mole was intended to have some design differences from Mega Mole, like Mega Mole's hair, smug expression, and vastly different attack pattern. Every other "Big" enemy has shared its attack pattern with the "normal" variant, with the only differences being ones that regard immunities or shaking the ground. Which means Mega Mole is different from a simple "magnification" of Monty Mole. And again, the only way to conclude that Mega and Morty are the same is with some rather large leaps of logic, which is still not allowed. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 03:10, 20 July 2017 | ||
