Editing Talk:Monchee

== Split Robokikki & Monkikki? ==

Yes, I know I was the one who [[Talk:Monkikki#Merge with Monchee|proposed]] the merge of Monkikki to Monchee a while back, but I've changed my mind for one reason - most of the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series enemies are considered mechanical counterparts of their ordinary organic selves. It's why we almost universally have "toy" identifiers to distinguish them, so this change would be consistent with the wiki. What do you think of splitting them back on the basis that Monchee is a toy version of Monkikki? As for Robokikki (faster red version from Twilight City with different credits artwork), I'm thinking that as well due to the recent split of Firebird from Nitpicker. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:30, 27 July 2017 (EDT)
:I was about to say that the "organic" Monkikki from ''Donkey Kong'' isn't as recurring and recognizable as Shy Guys, Ninjis, Fly Guys etc., enemies which have toy counterparts in the MvsDK series too. Also, for probably the same reason, we don't have separate pages for [[Nitpicker]] and its mechanincal counterpart, the "Bird". But I eventually changed my mind because the original Monkikki is inoffensive, while the MvsDK one can kill Mario. This is amplified by the fact that Monchee is mechanical, so it was "designed" to hurt, unlike the Monkikki, and this warrants a split. The Robot version should definitely have its separate page too. And since we are here, the same should go for Bucket Man/Dust Man, which are currently only mentioned in the [[Bin]] article. -- {{User:Super Radio/Sig}}
::The only thing is that Robokikki is basically the same as Monchee except it's just a little bit faster, so there's really not much else to say about it, though I suppose it's still different enough. On Bird, I think another split there would be unnecessary - after the Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'' birds (Kaibādo, Hōkusu & Kuro) were split from Nitpicker, the result became very confusing to navigate in my opinion. It makes about as much sense as splitting "alligator" from Snapjaw - even if they're known under generic names in the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series, it's pretty clear these enemies are visually, mechanically, and conceptually the same as the original ones from ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' On Bin, I think the part that should be definitely split is the ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' item, since it's obviously a different type of can (being three smaller drinking cans strung together). The enemy, eh, I think it's adequately covered in the article as-is; it saves us from piling on yet another foreign tag, and it's got conflicting names anyway. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:50, 27 July 2017 (EDT)
:::Mind you, I have split the three bird species from Nitpicker because that's how it was done for other enemies in the Game Boy Donkey Kong: [[Miira]], [[Penpen]], [[Aqua Man]], all behave absolutely the same; so do [[Chikuchiku]], [[Dotty]] and [[Rappy]], between them there's only a difference in looks. But each was given its own article. Regarding Monkikki, yeah, I think we should split the original, inoffensive one from its dangerous toy counterpart. Robokikki as well, because it's a faster Monchee, therefore it has an additional quality, much like [[Firebird]] in relation to Nitpicker. -- {{User:Super Radio/Sig}}
::::That makes sense. I just think those three bird articles are difficult to follow since they're all very similar and seem to be more about stage layouts than the enemies themselves, but I digress. Maybe it's only me. We're in agreement on what should be done about Monchee, so I've started the separate Robokikki article. Monkikki will need another proposal, which I'll do if no one else has any objections. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:54, 28 July 2017 (EDT)

==Split Monkikki from Monchee==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-2|split}}
Even though Monkikki and Monchee have the same Japanese name, we've split off the other ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series enemies from their main counterparts on the basis of them being toy versions instead of the actual thing. Monchee don't have windup keys compared to the ones in Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'', but their newer design is clearly derived on a variant of the [[wikipedia:Cymbal-banging monkey toy|cymbal-banging monkey toy]]. Additionally, they have somewhat different behavior - in Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'', Monkikki are completely harmless helpers that will move through Mario if the player tries contacting them from the side, but in ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', doing the same with a Monchee will result in damage.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 12, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Super Radio}} Per proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} If they were based off of something from a Super Mario game, like Pokey or Ninji, that'd be one thing, but I think these should be treated like Nitpickers are.
#{{user|Wildgoosespeeder}} Same enemy, different name.

===Comments===
@Doc von Schmeltwick - The thing is that the changes to Nitpicker (and Snapjaw and Sir Shovalot) seem to be aesthetic; Monchee has a key difference as an obstacle which changes the way they're interacted in stages, and the level design does take advantage of that fact. It's similar to the difference between Dōryī and Tane Pakkun. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:40, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 ==Split Monkikki from Monchee==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|5-2|split}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-2|split}}
 Even though Monkikki and Monchee have the same Japanese name, we've split off the other ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series enemies from their main counterparts on the basis of them being toy versions instead of the actual thing. Monchee don't have windup keys compared to the ones in Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'', but their newer design is clearly derived on a variant of the [[wikipedia:Cymbal-banging monkey toy|cymbal-banging monkey toy]]. Additionally, they have somewhat different behavior - in Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'', Monkikki are completely harmless helpers that will move through Mario if the player tries contacting them from the side, but in ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', doing the same with a Monchee will result in damage.
@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 ===Comments===
 @Doc von Schmeltwick - The thing is that the changes to Nitpicker (and Snapjaw and Sir Shovalot) seem to be aesthetic; Monchee has a key difference as an obstacle which changes the way they're interacted in stages, and the level design does take advantage of that fact. It's similar to the difference between Dōryī and Tane Pakkun. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:40, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
-==Justification for treating "monkey" as an alternate name==
-#It's the subject's most recent English name. Furthermore, it's the first time in almost 20 years this subject has been acknowledged officially and it's being done in the context of its debut game's remake.
-#Not only is it the most recent English name, but, going so far as our current knowledge on the remake, it's the only name given to this subject in the remake. I wouldn't give it any importance if it were used alongside a proper name (e.g.: "See that Monchee? Mario can grab the monkey's tail and yadda yadda"), which is not the case in the remake's trailer.
-#It doesn't contravene the [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policy]].
-#There's precedent of using generic names to complement proper names, one example being [[Pengaccha 1-gō]]'s "vehicle" descriptor.
-Likewise, regarding the fourth point: it's been stated that Monchee and Pengaccha 1-gō are not the same case, as the latter's proper name is not English and "vehicle" is only mentioned to establish the extent to which this subject is being given the time of day in English language material. However, I don't believe these cases are so fundamentally different; "vehicle" gets to have an express mention in the article due to its extenuating circumstances, which "monkey" also benefits from given the first two points I have made here. It's not quite an "apples to oranges" comparison, it's more of a "Granny Smith apples to Honeycrisp apples" one. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:54, October 27, 2023 (EDT)