Editing Talk:Mega Wiggler

==They originated in Mario Kart Wii!==

Hello? They originated in Mario Kart Wii. What I don't get is this: "They make their first Mario Kart appearance in Mario Kart 7. They replace the already-giant Wigglers in Maple Treeway, because the normal Wiggler is a playable character." That doesn't even make any sense! The Wigglers in Mario Kart 7 are the exact same size as those in Mario Kart Wii! The Wigglers in Mario Kart Wii weren't normal ones! WHAT? --[[User:Schmerpin|Schmerpin]] 17:12, 22 May 2012 (EDT)

Yes I agree. [[User:MarioKart7player|MarioKart7player]] ([[User talk:MarioKart7player|talk]]) 15:58, 12 February 2015 (EST)
==Mega Wiggler==

Big Wiggler shoud be called Mega Wiggler. It sounds a lot better. Who changed it? [[User:MarioKart7player|MarioKart7player]] ([[User talk:MarioKart7player|talk]]) 15:58, 12 February 2015 (EST)
:The wiki always prefers using official names over non-official names. Currently, "Big Wiggler" had an official source, while "Mega Wiggler" did not, so that's why it was moved. Regardless of what "sounds" better, the official name trumps anything else. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}

Ok, well I think Mega Wiggler sounds better. [[User:MarioKart7player|MarioKart7player]] ([[User talk:MarioKart7player|talk]]) 17:28, 12 February 2015 (EST)

== Super Mario 64 ==

{{talk}}
I think the Wiggler boss from ''Super Mario 64'' should get a mention in some capacity on here, as unlike other large Wiggler bosses/characters (like the ones from several later RPGs), it ''is'' treated as larger-than-normal in-game; not only is it on the giant part of the island, but it outright shrinks down to normal size after being defeated, eventually falling through the floor. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 07:47, 14 February 2019 (EST)
:Hmmm... I wonder what does the Japanese encyclopedia calls it... I'd assume that it is called "Hanachan". --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:03, 3 March 2019 (EST)
::It's "Hanachan" like in the game, but we do see an obvious size difference when the Power Star is relinquished. But on the other hand, both the Player's Guide and [https://web.archive.org/web/19980610065222/http://www.nintendo.com/n64/super_mario64/13-6.html official website] claim that Mario is the resized one (despite inconsistencies between the islands), even though the enemies are considered to be different. Also, maybe it's just me, but the size that Wiggler shrinks to seems to be different between versions, with ''Super Mario 64'' becoming tinier than it should and ''Super Mario 64 DS'' becoming a more normal size. I lean to the idea that Wiggler was intended to be its own character in the game, akin to Koopa the Quick being plain "Nokonoko" in Japanese. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:30, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:::It seemed about right to me in both versions. It's just skinnier in general in SM64. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 07:08, 4 March 2019 (EST)
::::Here's a possible example of what you're looking for: [[Big Magikoopa]]. It's unnamed in ''Yoshi's Safari'', but given the big name is self-explanatory, it's mentioned anyway. Something like that? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:11, 8 March 2019 (EST)
In Super Mario 64 you are tiny, therefore the wiggler is normal size. [[User:PROPLAYEN|PROPLAYEN]] ([[User talk:PROPLAYEN|talk]]) 19:44, August 7, 2020 (EDT)
:While this is technically true, the enemies from Mario's perspective are still considered appearances of giant Piranha Plants, Grand Goombas, Micro Goombas, Small Piranhas (which appear elsewhere), etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:59, August 7, 2020 (EDT)
(Continuing from an idea mentioned [[Talk:Lava Piranha|here]]) What do we think about potentially splitting the ''Super Mario 64'' appearance into its own article? It'd sidestep the issue as to if it should be counted as a Big Wiggler, and as mentioned, Koopa the Quick has its own article despite the generic Japanese name. The way to look at it is not that having its own article automatically makes it a separate subject, but rather, another article is due to the subject in a specific instance being noteworthy. However, is there too much overlap with the "Make Wiggler Squirm" article, and is "noteworthiness" too subjective? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:37, October 27, 2020 (EDT)

== Split the NSMB information from this article? ==
Should we split the New Super Mario Bros. information from this article? It is much bigger than later appearances, and serves as a platform. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:25, 15 February 2019 (EST)
:Being larger by itself isn't a reason to split; for example, Big Goombas are sometimes just the size of Hefty Goombas, and the big enemies in the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games absolutely [[:File:SMG2 Supermassive Big Piranha Plant.png|eclipse]] their appearances in other games. As long as the enemy is depicted as bigger than usual, the actual size can be imprecise. It is, however, ''longer'' than usual, having many more segments instead of simply being scaled up, which makes it fairly unique compared to most of the big enemies. The fact that it's used as a platform isn't necessarily a distinguishing factor because Big Wigglers have different interactions depending on the game (even in within only the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' line of games, things can still manage to change such as Mini Goombas or Spinners). This can honestly go either way, but I'm leaning towards keeping the big species articles unified. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:33, 15 February 2019 (EST)
:TCRF showed a video of unused behaviors for objects, and there was what appeared to be a "Deka Hanachan", though, if this gets split, it would go under the name "Kyodai Hanachan" per source priority. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:32, 20 February 2019 (EST)
::That's a valid point. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stPBppGWiQk&t=1m19s The video] indicates that more standard Big Wigglers were considered for ''New Super Mario Bros.'' [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:22, 21 February 2019 (EST)
::It's also worth mentioning that ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' lists it among the game's characters rather than enemies, although it should be noted that ''New Super Mario Bros.'' was kind of an interim from the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' "Kyodai" (Giant) to standard adoption of the ''Super Mario 64'' "Deka" (Big) for large subjects. The only other case where "Kyodai" / "Deka" refers to different enemies is Boss Bass / Big Cheep Cheep, which has a convoluted history with Bubba / Cheep Chomp. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:30, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:::That's true. [[Talk:Mini Goomba|Doc von Schmeltwick said that he'd rather be "yes" on splitting the Wiggler in this discussion]]. Let's get some consensus first. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:38, 4 March 2019 (EST)
::::I'm however still convinced they're different things. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:01, 4 March 2019 (EST)
:::::Anyways, like i said, let's get some consensus. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:46, 5 March 2019 (EST)
::::::Why don't you make a proposal? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:48, 5 March 2019 (EST)
:::::::I'd prefer have a consensus first before making a proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:53, 5 March 2019 (EST)
::::::::And... If there is a disagreement, i could make the proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:59, 6 March 2019 (EST)

== Split Kyodai Hanachan from this article ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-0|split}}
Ok, so the two are likely different things. The NSMB one is actually an ally as opposed to an enemy, is much bigger than the future appearances, has more segment than Big Wiggler, and both have different Japanese names. "Kyodai Hanachan" for the NSMB one, and "Deka Hanachan" for the rest.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' March 22, 2019, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} As mentioned above, the Japanese names are not to be taken at face value, [[Big Goomba#Names in other languages|as]] [[Big Koopa Troopa#Names in other languages|Kyodai]]/[[Colossal Koopa Paratroopa#Names in other languages|Deka]] [[Big Piranha Plant#Names in other languages|distinction]] [[Giant %3F Block#Names in other languages|is]] [[Big Block#Names in other languages|moot]]. The deciding factor for me is that ordinary Big Wigglers are [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stPBppGWiQk&t=1m19s unused] in the game, and if they were used, there wouldn't be a question on what to do here. It's likely the unused variant's name was given to the used version.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Well, it DOES act drastically different from its counterparts that eventually appear in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', so yeah, go ahead.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Normally I don't like the idea of splitting big enemies based on size, as they're inconsistent between games (SMG2, anyone?) and that's an '''extremely''' slippery slope, but given the other distinctions, particularly smaller Big Wigglers being unused, I'm okay with this.
#{{User|bwburke94}} Per all.

===Oppose===
===Comments===
@@ Line 13: / Line 13: @@
 == Super Mario 64 ==
+{{talk}}
 I think the Wiggler boss from ''Super Mario 64'' should get a mention in some capacity on here, as unlike other large Wiggler bosses/characters (like the ones from several later RPGs), it ''is'' treated as larger-than-normal in-game; not only is it on the giant part of the island, but it outright shrinks down to normal size after being defeated, eventually falling through the floor. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 07:47, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 :Hmmm... I wonder what does the Japanese encyclopedia calls it... I'd assume that it is called "Hanachan". --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:03, 3 March 2019 (EST)
@@ Line 21: / Line 22: @@
 :While this is technically true, the enemies from Mario's perspective are still considered appearances of giant Piranha Plants, Grand Goombas, Micro Goombas, Small Piranhas (which appear elsewhere), etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:59, August 7, 2020 (EDT)
 (Continuing from an idea mentioned [[Talk:Lava Piranha|here]]) What do we think about potentially splitting the ''Super Mario 64'' appearance into its own article? It'd sidestep the issue as to if it should be counted as a Big Wiggler, and as mentioned, Koopa the Quick has its own article despite the generic Japanese name. The way to look at it is not that having its own article automatically makes it a separate subject, but rather, another article is due to the subject in a specific instance being noteworthy. However, is there too much overlap with the "Make Wiggler Squirm" article, and is "noteworthiness" too subjective? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:37, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:I don't think redundancy is much of an issue since we already split bosses from their levels/missions anyway. Also of note, looking at the bosses list on the Super Mario 64 page, I'm pretty sure that Wiggler is the only one that has dialogue and has the boss theme play while fighting it to not be given its own article. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:55, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::I think that things should only get a separate article if they ''are'' a separate subject, and I will not be moved on that. Regarding its dialog, it has what, four text boxes? Also, it's behaviorally one of the simplest bosses in the game. I don't think it's even remotely close to as noteworthy as, say, the PMSS one, which also doesn't have its own article. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:49, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:::I think it's clear by now that you don't really care about character individuality in cases like this, so that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. Anyway, I think the Sticker Star Wiggler deserves its own page too (there's actually a decent amount of Wigglers that could probably get their own pages). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:59, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::::Splitting doesn't really help anyone, though. There's not really any more to be said that what's in each respective section now, and looking for separate pages for allegedly separate entities with identical names and in many cases roles is tedious, unnecessary, and far from preferable. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:08, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:::::I disagree, there's definitely potential to expand on the information we have on these characters by giving them their own articles rather than relegating them to a single history section. For example, Sticker Star Wiggler could probably benefit from a personality section, but there's no way of doing that with the current setup. Besides, it's not like it would be difficult to find, since we would still have sections saying "a member of this species appears in this game" on the main species pages with a link to the proper page. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:47, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::::::Thing is, ones like SM64, MLBiS, MLDT, and MLPJ all have the same basic role of "nice dude who due to misunderstanding/corruption gets in a spat with the player characters." Compounding this is that the MLPJ one is practically ''made'' of callbacks to the PMSS one, so they could be considered the same character following how our coverage of the paper entities works....but it also might not be. I feel there's so much vague connections and similarities that splitting will only complicate things further. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:57, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:::::::I notice that these arguments are stemming from the wiki's character/species dichotomy, so I'm going to offer this hypothetical: what if we broke it down even further and made a template for general boss enemies? It would basically be an alternative to the character infobox and somewhat reduce the load on species pages. They would also be dedicated boss articles, serving a slightly different purpose from the existing pages. Could an arrangement like that work out? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:15, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::::::::I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding what that would actually be. Would you mind making a brief sandbox example? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:34, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:::::::::Sounds like [https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Ganon this] to me, which is also something I want to avoid, personally. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:20, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::::::::::I considered this idea might have similarities to that, so I'll state for the record that it would ''only'' affect species, not characters, though unsure about "character/species" at the moment (possibly to be determined on a case-by-case basis). Picture a "misc_boss" parameter added to the species infobox, which would be reserved for certain bosses that aren't quite deemed characters but don't quite fit under the species' traditional appearance either. For example, Wiggler's "miscellaneous bosses" may include {{fake link|Wiggler (''Super Mario 64'')}} (also returning in ''Mario Kart DS'' like other ''Super Mario 64 DS'' bosses), {{fake link|Wiggler (''Super Princess Peach'')}}, and various Wiggler bosses from the ''Mario & Luigi'' series. Note that certain existing subjects like the Lava Piranha, which isn't really an individual character or a separate species by the game's own admission, would be recategorized as a miscellaneous boss. Anyway, that's just one imperfect idea I thought of that might lessen these arguments in the future. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:48, November 4, 2020 (EST)
-Thing is, it's not actually the Wiggler that is big, it's Mario that is small. The trait of Tiny-Huge Island is that it's Mario that changes size, not the world itself. So it's just a regular Wiggler. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:07, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:But it shrinks to a "normal" size when Mario defeats it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:16, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::Even further than that, even. But that's, like, the one difference. It doesn't turn red when angry in the N64 original, because sprite swapping was hard I guess, but does in the DS remake. Wigglers have been known to vary in size anyway, like in ''Mario Kart DS'' or ''Super Mario Party'', both of which we have listed on the standard Wiggler page. As far as the game is concerned, it's a regular Wiggler. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:25, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:::I know. That's why I said merely "a mention" rather than a full section merge. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:11, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-::::And as mentioned, Mario's size (supposedly) still affects the enemy's size, which is why things like the Grand Goomba and Micro Goomba are in relation to Mario, not considered the regular enemies. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:15, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
-:::::I'm for a mention. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:20, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 == Split the NSMB information from this article? ==
@@ Line 53: / Line 37: @@
 == Split Kyodai Hanachan from this article ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|5-0|split}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-0|split}}
 Ok, so the two are likely different things. The NSMB one is actually an ally as opposed to an enemy, is much bigger than the future appearances, has more segment than Big Wiggler, and both have different Japanese names. "Kyodai Hanachan" for the NSMB one, and "Deka Hanachan" for the rest.
@@ Line 69: / Line 53: @@
 ===Oppose===
 ===Comments===
-== Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope big Wiggler ==
-I’m going to add in the Wiggler from ''Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope'', because it looks to be far bigger than the heroes are. If anyone thinks that it should not be here, let me know. [[User:Mason Popovich]] Sunday, February 12, 2023, 19:41 (EST)
-:Probably not, enemy size is often inconsistent from game-to-game so we only consider an enemy a big variant when smaller versions of it also appear (or, in the absence of that, official material that specifically refers to it as a big variant). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:46, February 12, 2023 (EST)
-Okay, I saw this after I added it, I will remove it now. [[User:Mason Popovich]], Sunday, February 12, 2023, 17:49 (EST)
-== Mario Kart Wigglers ==
-{{talk}}
-Is there anything confirming the Wigglers in those series are ''actually'' Big Wigglers? As mentioned above, Wigglers have occasionally change sizes. ''Mario Kart 7'', ''Tour'', and ''8 Deluxe'' '''do''' have the regular playable Wiggler and I believe the Wiggler in DS Mario Circuit is much shorter than the giant Wigglers in Maple Treeway, but what do the sources say on it? [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 20:48, November 1, 2023 (EDT)
-: Checking the strategy guides for Wii and 7, they're just called "Wigglers". [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 13:12, December 11, 2023 (EST)
-:I can't tell you about their actual size, but I ''can'' tell you that, in ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'', both the DS Mario Circuit and the Wii Maple Treeway Wigglers have the same amount of body segments (the usual four). You might be thinking of the original ''Mario Kart Wii'''s Maple Treeway, where the Wigglers had six body segments. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 13:43, December 11, 2023 (EST)
-:: Regardless, we should just change the Mario Kart ones to Wiggler because the strategy guides just call them "Wiggler" and not "Big Wiggler". [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, December 12, 2023 (EST)
-::: If we take into account what you say, we should change a loooooot of page. Strategy guide do not often care about ennemies names and especially if they come from other enemies like a giant version. For example, in the French Prima Guide for Super Mario Galaxy, [[Jack O'Goomba]] are simply called "Goomba". So I don't think it's necessary to change a page just because of that. Especially as you can see that the wigglers are bigger in Mario Kart series [[User:PiNGOUiN|PiNGOUiN]] ([[User talk:PiNGOUiN|talk]])
-::::If you consider the old {{media link|Size chart.jpg|size chart}}, the Mario Circuit Wiggler's looking about the correct size relative to the Goomba's size there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:48, September 21, 2024 (EDT)
-==New name==
-Should we go ahead and put the move template on this page considering that Super Mario Party Jamboree confirms that it's gonna be called Mega Wiggler in-game? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:27, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
-:Not until the game's released. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 10:42, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
-:Actually, since Jamboree's announcement I have been thinking about making a split proposal. Mega Wiggler in Jamboree is called 巨大ハナチャン, which is the same name of the NSMB Wiggler that used to have its own page (Kyodai Hanachan my beloved). This is different from the smaller variant Big Wiggler, that is called でかハナチャン. I believe Giant Wiggler and Big Wiggler should be split, but I'd like to hear other opinions as well. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 11:34, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
-::I think this is a general issue with the resized stuff, and Mega/Big and Mini/Small are basically in a tug-of-war state. We had Mega Boo split from Big Boo due to the functional differences, so if there are more characteristics that would justify splitting... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:59, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
-::: The only reason why I suggested the move template is because of the new name. I also think we shouldn't be calling the Mario Kart versions Big Wigglers as various strategy guides just call them "Wigglers". [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:37, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
-:::I would suggest considering [[Mega Guy]] to be split from Big Shy Guy. Not only are they far larger than any other Big Shy Guy, but if Yoshi eats one of them, he will produce a [[Mega Eggdozer]], which behaves far differently compared to a regular [[Giant Egg]] produced from Big Shy Guys. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:21, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
-::::{{@|Arend}} While i support the idea (IIRC, i was the first one to discuss it), Big Shy Guy was merged back thanks to a proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:28, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::And not without reason, considering they never appear at the same time (so their "differences" are relative, same goes for Giant Egg and Mega EggDozer) and there were plenty of appearances not accounted for. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:46, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::Yeah, another problem is that size is inconsistent between games to begin with; quick example, we have some appearances of Big Goomba that look (and sometimes act!) more like Hefty Goomba. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:00, June 29, 2024 (EDT)