Editing Talk:Mega Mushroom

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==Green Mushroom==
Why is that green image of that mushroom is there if it has the own article. Isn't called the '''Super Mega Mushroom''' [[User:Princess Grapes Butterfly|Princess Grapes Butterfly]] 19:01, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

Yeah you're right but umm I think they put that there because it might be related to the Super Mushroom. {{User:Princess Strawberry Butterfly/sig}}

Nonono, thats what it looked like in Mario Party 4. It looked different then. [[User:GreenKoopa|GreenKoopa]] - [[User talk:GreenKoopa|Comments or questions?]]
==Split the Mario Party 4 Mega Mushroom from this Page==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|2-7}} 
Currently, we have the Mario Party 4 and New Super Mario Bros. versions of the Mega Mushroom here. According to this Page, the Mega Mushroom's Japanese name is 巨大キノコ
(Kyodaikinoko, Huge Mushroom). This is possibly the NSMB version, because of the Japanese name of Mega Mario on [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ds/a2dj/newmario/index.html this page of the Japanese NSMB site]. But according to [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ngc/gmpj/new/index.html this page of the Japanese Mario Party 4 site], it isn't the same as the Mario Party 4 version (I guess), where the MP4 version is called デカキノコ (Dekakinoko (Deka is a Japanese word to describe something large)). As the appearances of both Mushrooms are also different (NSMB version is very huge and has a even bigger yellow cap (with red spots), MP4 version is normal-sized, and green-capped (with white spots)), and we've done several splits and merges because of the Japanese names before, I think this should be split as well.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Arend}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 7, 2012 23:59 GMT
===Support===
#{{User|Arend}} Per me
#{{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} - If they have different names in other countries, then I guess they should be different. Per Arend.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} As {{User|Tails777}} explained [[Talk:Mini Mushroom|here]], the effects are the same; only the appearance has changed, and I don't think that and the different names are enough to warrant a split.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per what I said on the [[Talk:Mini Mushroom|other proposal]]
#{{User|King Booranha}} Per Tails777.
#{{User|Bowser's luma}} Per all.
#{{User|ShellMario}} Per Tails777.
#{{User|M&L}} Per Tails777.
#{{User|Raven Effect}} Per all

===Comments===
If it is split, is there enough info on the MP4 Mega Mushroom to keep it from being a stub? {{User|GalacticPetey}}

Short articles do not necessarily mean a stub. A stub is simply an article with inadequate information, that is, not enough information. If we cannot expand the article anymore, yet it is a few sentences long, then it is not a stub. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:37, 25 January 2012 (EST)

:What I meant was, is there enough info on it to make it into an article? {{User:GalacticPetey/sig}}
::Yes, there is. But's more logical to keep it as it is {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

==Big Mushroom also a type of Mega Mushroom?==
So with few exceptions, subjects that simply go by different sizes like Micro/Mini/Small Goomba and Big/Mega Block are treated interchangeably. Can this mean that the Big Mushroom from the ''Super Mario Maker'' games is effectively the Mega/Giant Mushroom? Going by the Japanese names Mega Mushroom has had over the years (''Deka''/''Mega''/''Kyodai''), it certainly fits in line, with ''Deka Kinoko'' also being used for Big Mushroom (slightly different spelling [[Bony Beetle#Names in other languages|but]] [[Tiny Wario#Names in other languages|that's]] [[Ukiki#Names in other languages|common]]). Big Mario might have several mechanical differences from Mega Mario, but so does Balloon Mario, and for just the inverse, Fire Mario was also a timed effect in the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:03, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
:Yeah that makes sense. But at what point do they become [[Ice Mario|too]] [[Ice Mario (Super Mario Galaxy)|different]]? {{User:PinkYoshiFan/sig}} 13:23, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
::Well, the second Ice Mario was marketed as a new power-up and the first so far has really nothing in common with it (besides maybe the fact that the Ice Flower provides ice balls in ''Mario Kart Tour''). As far as I know, Big Mushroom or Big Mario weren't called new, and Big Mario's main difference is that it trades timed gameplay for vulnerability. I should also add that the aesthetic of Big Mario seems directly inspired by the version of Mega Mario in ''Super Paper Mario''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:56, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
:::Ok yeah, that makes sense, so yeah, maybe they should be merged. {{User:PinkYoshiFan/sig}} 13:59, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
::::Also, something of interest when I was looking at internal names for the flies in ''Super Mario Maker'' is that the files in <tt>content/Pack/Sound.pack</tt> refer to "<tt>BigKinoko</tt>" (separate from "<tt>SuperKinoko</tt>") but the files in <tt>content/Pack/StaticSkin.pack</tt> (main object graphics) refer to "<tt>Megakinoko</tt>" and "<tt>MegaMario</tt>". Part of the reason for this might be because there's an odd mix of Japanese and English-based internal names - for example, the enemy names are all romanizations of the Japanese names, but the Costume Mario suits in <tt>content/Model</tt> use several English localizations like "<tt>Charizard</tt>", "<tt>MegaMan</tt>" and "<tt>Robin</tt>". Either way, Mega Mushroom tends to be internally named "<tt>KinokoBig</tt>" or something similar in other games such as ''Super Mario 3D World''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:35, July 23, 2020 (EDT)
:::::Sadly, merging these two is out of the question. The now-defunct ''[[Super Mario Maker]]'' website '''explicitly''' states that Big Mario bridges the gap between the Super and Mega forms. I can't remember the exact quote offhand, but I'd be happy to find it on Wayback Machine and post it should anyone happen to ask. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:03, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
::::::An exact quote would be pretty important since I made sure to check sources like that for any such statements. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:50, September 14, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::Still looking around for it. In the meantime, even if that quote didn't exist, I would still oppose this merge. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 11:42, September 14, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::Big Mushrooms are Big Mushrooms and not Mega Mushrooms. For starters, Mega Mushrooms are temporary, while Big Mushrooms last until the player gets hit or dies. Secondly, players that collected a Mega Mushroom will destroy anything in their path, while players that collected a Big Mushroom can only break types of blocks and activate [[POW Block]]s and [[ON/OFF Switch]]es just by landing on it. These are my points; feel free to disagree. {{User:OhoJeeOnFire/sig}}

==Split pre-''New Super Mario Bros.'' Mega and Mini Mushrooms from their post-''New Super Mario Bros.'' counterparts, take 2==
{{TPP}}

While this proposal also concerns [[Mini Mushroom]], these two articles currently have identical issues and I think it is more than justified to cover them both in a single talk page proposal.

So, the Mega and Mini Mushroom were both introduced in ''[[Mario Party 4]]'', in which they both look similar to ordinary [[Mushroom]]s (while ''Mario Party 4'' has no ordinary Mushrooms, the [[Mushroom Orb|Mushroom Capsule]] from ''[[Mario Party 5]]'' is a simple point of comparison). The Mega Mushroom in this game differs from an ordinary Mushroom only by being a blue-green color, while the Mini Mushroom is pink and has a pacifier. This design for the Mini Mushroom later returned in ''[[Mario Pinball Land]]'', and would be split into the same article as the ''Mario Party 4'' appearance if this proposal passes.

Starting in ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'' and continuing in all subsequent appearances, the Mega Mushroom is orange and red and notably oversized compared to a normal [[Super Mushroom]], while the Mini Mushroom is colored blue and very small (though not out of proportion, unlike the Mega Mushroom). Another consistent element is that characters that grow with the Mega Mushroom in ''New Super Mario Bros.'' onward are surrounded by a multicolored star animation, which is not used in ''Mario Party 4''. It could also be pointed out that the post-''New Super Mario Bros.'' Mini Mushroom transforms [[Mario]] into [[Mini Mario]], with a notably flattened model much like [[Small Mario]] and unlike the Mini Mushroom's effects in ''Mario Party 4'', but I'm not confident that this is a cogent point since Mini Mario is sometimes portrayed as a small, normally-proportioned Mario in artwork, but is something that may still be worth consideration.

Both the Mega and Mini Mushroom have different Japanese names in ''Mario Party 4'' compared to their appearances in post-''New Super Mario Bros.'' games, as can be currently seen on their respective pages in the Names in other languages sections. The Mini Mushroom apparently has a different Japanese name altogether in ''Mario Pinball Land'', but I will note that its appearance is notably identical to its appearance in ''Mario Party 4''.

Beyond any of this, my final point is that the Mega and Mini Mushrooms ''were'' regarded as new power-ups in the context of ''New Super Mario Bros.''{{'}} marketing and surrounding reporting, which can be seen in many articles from the era: [http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/preview/3693/new-super-mario-bros-nintendo-ds] ("As for new transformations, the giant mushroom that makes Mario grow to screen-filling size is a taste of things to come".) [https://www.ign.com/articles/2006/05/06/new-super-mario-bros] ("The super-size mushroom is only one example of the new elements in this game.") [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Nintendo-DS/New-Super-Mario-Bros-271969.html] ("Eight worlds are yours to explore and you’ll need all your Super Mario skills, plus power-ups like the Mega Mushroom, Blue Koopa Shell and Mini Mushroom, to discover all 240 Star Coins." While this doesn't explicitly name the Mega and Mini Mushrooms as new power-ups, it is implicit by their being placed next to the [[Blue Shell]] and the omission of well-established power-ups like the Super Mushroom and [[Fire Flower]].)

Based on all this, I think it's safe to say that the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' version of these power-ups was at the very least reinvented but very possibly made up from scratch, and that it is not intimately tied to or the same thing as the ''Mario Party 4'' version, and I think this split is rather long overdue.

See also [[Star (Mario Party series)]] vs. [[Power Star]] and [[Super Star]], [[Warp Block]] vs. [[Warp Box]], and [[Super Mushroom]] (also known as a Golden Mushroom in ''[[Mario Party 2]]'' and ''[[Mario Party 3]]'') vs. [[Golden Mushroom (crownless)]], [[Golden Dash Mushroom]], and [[Gold Mushroom]] for other examples of items that seemingly originated in the ''Mario Party'' series but are now recognized on the wiki as distinct from their similarly or same-named counterparts in later games.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 27, 2023, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Biggestman}} Per proposal. These are pretty clearly not the same things, at least not in my eyes.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I myself was conflicted about this. I'm not convinced either of them directly draw inspiration from the pre-NSMB ones. I think "Cursed Mushroom" is more likely to draw inspiration from Poison Mushroon than Mega and Mini, but i am not entirely sure here either. You'd likely say i'm being disingenuous for calling this a coincidence, but the NSMB items are about as likely to have drawn inspiration from the MP ones as the YWW [[Ice Snifit|Snifit]]s drawing inspiration from the Superstar Saga ones.
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per proposal and the others.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We're a bit on the fence, but we think the fact that stuff like the Golden Mushrooms being split up already and these two items being outliers in that regard definitely leaves splitting as a lot more appealing to us. Unless we decide to take the radical stance that every instance of a Golden Mushroom should be merged together regardless of actual gameplay effect, we feel like doing this split is for the best in the name of consistency.
# {{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Different functions? Different Japanese names? Splitting time!
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all. Their counterparts are too different.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} For consistency with the previously mentioned ''Mario Party'' [[Star (Mario Party series)|Stars]].
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.</strike>

===Oppose===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I think it's fine to keep them in the same articles. Early Mini Mushroom has effectively the same design between [[:File:Mini Mushroom.jpg|''Mario Party 4'']] and [[:File:MPL MiniMushroom.PNG|''Super Mario Ball'']], despite the different Japanese names (which are, really, just different ways to pretty much say the same thing). Early Mega Mushroom is more interesting: it has its own design in [[:File:Mega Mushroom.jpg|''Mario Party 4'']], and then it looks fairly close to a Super Mushroom palette in [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n08/bmvj/item.html ''Super Mario Ball'']. The latter is distinctly close to the early Mega Mushroom in [https://bandainamco-am.co.jp/am/vg/mariokart/special/item/img/pic_p19.gif ''Mario Kart Arcade GP''] and [https://bandainamco-am.co.jp/am/vg/mariokart2/special/item/img/prize35.gif ''Mario Kart Arcade GP 2''] and the prototypical Mega Mushroom in [[list of New Super Mario Bros. pre-release and unused content|pre-release ''New Super Mario Bros.'']] It looks to me like a design evolution that localizers generally kept track of.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I don't see any value in a split. I won't argue against the MP4 and NSMB mushrooms being technically different from a development perspective, but both designs are conceptually the same item doing the same thing. At best, it's the exact same idea that different teams happened to come up with, and I would rather keep it all in the same place in that case, akin to subjects like [[Big Paragoomba]].
#{{User|Tails777}} My stance on this subject remains unchanged from before. Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all. Furthermore, for my personal point of view, I would much rather keep items with a similar name together for ease of reading and searching than having them splitted apart, creating more of a mess to try and find what you are exactly looking for. For simplicity's sake, keep things together than having multiple pages for pretty much the same item.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Upon seeing the counterarguments to this, particularly in the comments, I’m thinking that this proposal was always a mistake on my part. Apologies to all involved. That said, I will still take full responsibility for the proposal if it passes and I don’t think that splitting would be a ''complete'' mistake or disaster for the wiki, just something that is not really necessary and a bit overcomplicated.

===Comments===
One thing I'm concerned about is the first two ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' games. Namely, because we don't have an actual image of it, only the DX one that clearly uses the NSMB design. I don't know how they look in the earlier ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:44, December 13, 2023 (EST)
:Hmm, fair point. Uncovering screenshots and/or the Japanese name used for these items would be very desirable... [[User:Pseudo|Pseudo]] ([[User talk:Pseudo|talk]]) 12:47, December 13, 2023 (EST)
::Upon further research, I was able to find this video [https://youtu.be/rC_Y1kOhUEQ&t=388] (timestamp included), which shows that the "Giant Mushroom" as it is known in ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' looks like an oversized (but regularly proportioned) Mushroom, with an orange and red color scheme. Since this game came out before ''New Super Mario Bros.'', it does appear to put this appearance in a bit of a gray area but on the whole it does resemble the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' version much more than the ''Mario Party 4'' version. Without knowing the Japanese name, I would be inclined to put this appearance in the main article with SolemnStormcloud's comment in mind. [[User:Pseudo|Pseudo]] ([[User talk:Pseudo|talk]]) 12:58, December 13, 2023 (EST)
::Yes, I was just about to add that it was a big <small><small>heh</small></small> problem: the near-final form of the Mega Mushroom debuted in [https://bandainamco-am.co.jp/am/vg/mariokart/special/item/catalog.php ''Mario Kart Arcade GP''] with a very similar color scheme. If I recall right, even though ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'' replaced it with the modern design, its English "Giant Mushroom" name was kept there, with an identical effect. The Japanese name is also much closer than the ''Mario Party 4'' or ''Super Mario Ball'' versions. So, I would say that marked a definite bridge. As for it being a "new" power in ''New Super Mario Bros.'', keep in mind that the same was also said of [[Talk:Tanooki Mario#Split between Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario 3D Land forms|Tanooki Mario]] in ''Super Mario 3D Land''. In effect, it's on a sub-series basis. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:01, December 13, 2023 (EST)
:::While I am fully willing to see the ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' version as a predecessor to or early appearance of the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Mega Mushroom, I do not think that this is a good basis not to distinguish the ''Mario Party 4'' item from later appearances. Point taken regarding Tanooki Mario being called new in 3D Land, though. [[User:Pseudo|Pseudo]] ([[User talk:Pseudo|talk]]) 13:04, December 13, 2023 (EST)
::::I would also like to point out that while the page that LinkTheLefty linked does not show it, the Giant Mushroom is displayed as being oversized in-game, as the video that I linked shows, which is one of the major traits missing from the ''Mario Party 4'' mushroom. [[User:Pseudo|Pseudo]] ([[User talk:Pseudo|talk]]) 13:06, December 13, 2023 (EST)

I'm indifferent on this proposal, but if it passes, I'd suggest leaving the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Mini and Mega Mushrooms without an identifier, as they are far more recurring (especially the Mega Mushroom). [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 12:52, December 13, 2023 (EST)
:This makes sense to me, and I'll amend the split templates to reflect this. [[User:Pseudo|Pseudo]] ([[User talk:Pseudo|talk]]) 13:01, December 13, 2023 (EST)

:: Split away. After all, we split the Star Pipe and Golden Pipe, didn't we? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 11:21, December 14, 2023 (EST)
:::I'd be called disingenuous for this, but i genuinely am not convinced either items have directly drawn inspiration from the Mario Party items in the slightest. If anything, this is less comparable to the "big" enemies, and more comparable to the [[Ice Snifit]]s. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:52, December 15, 2023 (EST)
:::: I'm comparing it to the Special Shots from the Mario Sports games --meaning similar to Ice Snifits--. They share the same names but there's been no confirmation if they are supposed to be the same thing. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:00, December 15, 2023 (EST)

I feel I still need some clarification as to what makes these two versions of the mushrooms functionally different. The only functional difference I can see is that one gives dice blocks for a board game while the other doesn't and if that's the case, we should theoretically be splitting the Golden Mushroom from the Super Mushroom, since that has the same functional difference and even more beyond that. The Golden Mushroom is not a power-up like the Super Mushroom, it isn't even the same color, the only similarities are they're both mushrooms and, as far as I'm concerned, the same name in Japan (I don't even know if the name is the same in other languages). Heck, the Golden Mushroom functionality even HAS a separate article in the form of the Super Shroom Orb, which is a far better place to cover the ''Mario Party'' information of the Golden Mushroom than the power-up article is. Considering how messy our coverage of the normal Mushroom is, I find it hardly useful to split hairs on this mushroom. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:The way I'm looking at it, functionally there is no difference whatsoever between the actual mushrooms. They're both items that turn the character who uses them into their mega/mini form. The only "difference" lies specifically with the forms themselves, and even that's stretching it a lot because it boils down to the difference in gameplay between party games and platformers. This proposal seems like it's just splitting hairs and going to confuse readers more than it helps. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:35, December 18, 2023 (EST)
::I'm also getting that the name is different in Japan, which I also don't feel is strong enough because the name translates to Big/Giant Mushroom, both of which are just different forms of the word "Mega", meaning that the name is still virtually the same. So I still fail to see how or why this warrents a split. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:::I could see the idea that the NSMB item wasn't specifically created to invoke the MP4 item... but I fail to see why the MKAGP item should also be split since it has more in common on that front. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:48, December 18, 2023 (EST)
::::I also agree that the NSMB item wasn't created/brought back as a result of ''Mario Party 4'', but I still don't think any of this is worth splitting hairs over. They all still just make the user giant/mini and all the differences hinge on, as Waluigi Time points out, a matter of game genre. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:::::I'd also like to add that the Ice Flower's appearance from volume 5 of Super Mario-kun almost definitely did not influence the current iteration being added to Partners in Time 13 years later, but we keep all of that on one page. (I think NSMBW also treated the Ice Flower as a new power-up even though it was already in two other games. In that case, it was that version of Ice Mario that was new, not the flower.) To be fair, the Japanese name is the same as far as we know and it basically kept the design, but an element-swapped Fire Flower is such a basic concept it'd be even weirder if they were different. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:23, December 19, 2023 (EST)
:::::: OK, honestly, these are very strong arguments to me and I’m beginning to regret having created this proposal to begin with. These are not as fundamentally different as I may have thought, especially with the Arcade GP throughline. I may retract support on my own proposal here. The Ice Flower is what really got me here. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:50, December 19, 2023 (EST)