Editing Talk:Mega Kantera

==Name Change to Mega Lantern Ghost?==
This should be obvious to anyone looking into the name. メガカンテラ means "Mega Lantern" and Kantera means Lantern, the regular lantern ghosts are called "Kantera-kun" in Japanese and their official translated name is "Lantern Ghost". Calling Mega Kantera, "Mega Lantern Ghost" makes logical sense. I ask this to be changed because this is going to confuse people that look at these pages, see what is clearly a variant of the Ghost Lantern but it's named like it's Japanese translation.--[[User:Sgt. Sarge|Sgt. Sarge]] ([[User talk:Sgt. Sarge|talk]]) 22:29, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:I'm pretty sure the Japanese name is because an English name has never been officially found, and translating "Kantera" would not count toward that. [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 22:37, January 8, 2024 (EST)
::But this is so very obvious. I have the same issue with some of the Shy Guy variants still being called Heyho. Like Bazooka Heyho should be called Bazooka Guy, that's how all the other Shy Guy's worked. I know we don't get official guides all that often anymore but we can at least use our basic thinking and realize the most obvious answers that are starring right in front of us. --[[User:Sgt. Sarge|Sgt. Sarge]] ([[User talk:Sgt. Sarge|talk]]) 22:58, January 8, 2024 (EST)
:::Well, as far as the Shy Guys go, that's case-by-case: sometimes it's rendered as "[X] Shy Guy", "[X] Guy", even "[X] [[Sling Shy|Shy]]" or [[Stretch (Shy Guy)|something]] [[Train Bandit|else]]. In the case of Mega Kantera, yes, Mega Lantern would be fairly straightforward, but [[MarioWiki:Naming#Japanese|the wiki doesn't allow fan-translations as subject titles]]. Doing so would open the door to a lot of subjectivity, a lot more discussions about optimal renderings, a lot of disagreements over these things, etc. The only thing the wiki allows which is sort of bending the rules (although it's technically more of a transliteration rule than a translation one) is allowing direct loanwords to be rendered as they were originally (e.g. ''Kūru Kongu'' becomes "Cool Kong"), which is useful as a point of familiarity. Though, in that case, Japanese ''kantera'' might have to be Dutch ''kandelaar'', although I don't think that's quite the same exact meaning. <small>Really, this would be avoided had Mega Kantera stayed merged with Big Lantern Ghost.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:39, January 12, 2024 (EST)

==Merge with [[Big Lantern Ghost]]==
{{TPP}}
I think it's pretty clear that these two enemies are the same thing: They're both big versions of a [[Lantern Ghost]]. They look almost completely identical to each other and don't have any particular outstanding characteristics that make them any different. As far as I can tell, they're also relatively the same size. BLG in Japanese is a "Biggu" Lantern Ghost, while this one is a "Mega" Lantern Ghost. Now before you say that we should keep them separate because they have different Japanese names, this isn't really the same case because we've always had a lot of variance when it comes to "BIG" versions of enemies. Look at how many different names the [[Mega Goomba]] is known as. Nor should we keep them separate because they battle the player in different ways, otherwise we would have to make a separate page for the Paper Mario Goombas (They attack with headbonks, different than the platforming games)

'''Proposer''': {{User|Shadow2}}

'''Deadline''': March 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Merge into Big Lantern Ghost===
#{{User|Shadow2}} Per proposal
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, and also once and only once; it feels a little silly to have ''2'' articles for roughly the same concept just because of differing genre.

===Keep separate===
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} They have nothing to do with each other and even have different Japanese names.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} While I understand your viewpoint, they do have differing Japanese names, and I believe the ''Paper Mario'' boss is a character similar to the [[Boss Goomba]].
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}DryBonesBandit
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i don't think the character that trapped Watt in Paper Mario 64 is linearly related to the enemy in Yoshi's New Island. they're not even similar sizes! seems to me like these are just two different lantern ghosts that both happen to be bigger than usual, and the one that is a character just happens to have an uncreative name.

===Comments===
"Biggu" tends to refer to the enlarged ''Yoshi's Island'' bosses, which this takes after. Naval Piranha isn't the same as Big Piranha Plant, for example, nor is Hookbill the Koopa the same as Big Koopa Troopa. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:09, February 17, 2025 (EST)
:"Tends to", but not in this case. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 07:17, February 17, 2025 (EST)
::It may not be a boss from a Yoshi's Island game, but the name is clearly based on the naming scheme for YI bosses. Especially considering the chapter it appears in. Plus, [[Talk:Super Blooper (boss)#Merge to Big Blooper|this proposal]] to merge [[Super Blooper (boss)|Super Blooper]] to [[Big Blooper]] failed, and that's an extremely similar situation, so why should the Lantern Ghosts be merged and not the Bloopers? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 08:03, February 17, 2025 (EST)
::: I agree with Doc and Blinker. The Big Lantern Ghost and Mega Kantera have nothing to do with each other aside looking the same. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:41, February 17, 2025 (EST)

I mean, Big Shy Guys from Super Mario Advance are still merged to the Mega Guys from Yoshi's New Island unless you want a split too. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:47, February 17, 2025 (EST)
:To be fair, these actually don't look the same, as the boss has a random bandage on its head, similar to how some of the SMW2 bosses have other distinguishing traits from just being "enlarged normal enemy." Personally, I think it could go either way after Shark Chomp was merged to [[Big Chain Chomp]]. If it does get merged, the Bloopers definitely should be revisited. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:04, February 17, 2025 (EST)
:I don't see how the Shy Guys are relevant to this? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:33, February 18, 2025 (EST)

{{@|PrincessPeachFan}} {{@|DryBonesBandit}} The [[Mega Goomba]] mentioned in the proposal goes by four different Japanese names, yet we still classify those under a single page. The Japanese names of things is often an indicator of how things should be done, but it's not ALWAYS representative of the need for multiple pages. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:43, February 17, 2025 (EST)
:I see your point; however, I also mentioned that the Big Lantern Ghost seems to be a character of its own; it has a bandaged head, a trait the species lacks; it is the only Big Lantern Ghost in the game, where it has quotes of its own; it also appears as a character in [[Super Mario-kun]]. Not to mention the similarity to [[Talk:Big_Blooper#Split_Blooper_.28Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door.29_from_Big_Blooper|this proposal]], which was in favor of a split. Also not to mention that a Japanese naming difference is sometimes indicative of different subjects. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 19:06, February 17, 2025 (EST)
::Oh my bad, I thought you were talking about a big Shy Guy having a bandage on its head. That's a fair point, but I'd still err on the side of this being just a particular instance of the "species". [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:45, February 17, 2025 (EST)
:::@evie Which of the two has an "uncreative" name? Both names are actually... descriptive? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:09, February 19, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 6: / Line 6: @@
 ==Merge with [[Big Lantern Ghost]]==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-5|do not merge}}
 I think it's pretty clear that these two enemies are the same thing: They're both big versions of a [[Lantern Ghost]]. They look almost completely identical to each other and don't have any particular outstanding characteristics that make them any different. As far as I can tell, they're also relatively the same size. BLG in Japanese is a "Biggu" Lantern Ghost, while this one is a "Mega" Lantern Ghost. Now before you say that we should keep them separate because they have different Japanese names, this isn't really the same case because we've always had a lot of variance when it comes to "BIG" versions of enemies. Look at how many different names the [[Mega Goomba]] is known as. Nor should we keep them separate because they battle the player in different ways, otherwise we would have to make a separate page for the Paper Mario Goombas (They attack with headbonks, different than the platforming games)
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Shadow2}}<br/>
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Shadow2}}
 '''Deadline''': March 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT
@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 #{{User|FanOfYoshi}}DryBonesBandit
 #{{User|EvieMaybe}} i don't think the character that trapped Watt in Paper Mario 64 is linearly related to the enemy in Yoshi's New Island. they're not even similar sizes! seems to me like these are just two different lantern ghosts that both happen to be bigger than usual, and the one that is a character just happens to have an uncreative name.
-#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 37: / Line 36: @@
 :I see your point; however, I also mentioned that the Big Lantern Ghost seems to be a character of its own; it has a bandaged head, a trait the species lacks; it is the only Big Lantern Ghost in the game, where it has quotes of its own; it also appears as a character in [[Super Mario-kun]]. Not to mention the similarity to [[Talk:Big_Blooper#Split_Blooper_.28Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door.29_from_Big_Blooper|this proposal]], which was in favor of a split. Also not to mention that a Japanese naming difference is sometimes indicative of different subjects. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 19:06, February 17, 2025 (EST)
 ::Oh my bad, I thought you were talking about a big Shy Guy having a bandage on its head. That's a fair point, but I'd still err on the side of this being just a particular instance of the "species". [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:45, February 17, 2025 (EST)
-:::{{@|EvieMaybe}} Which of the two has an "uncreative" name and ''how''? Both names are actually... not that different? same structure --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:09, February 19, 2025 (EST)
+:::@evie Which of the two has an "uncreative" name? Both names are actually... descriptive? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:09, February 19, 2025 (EST)
-::::the Paper Mario boss, seeing as it is a distinct character and not an enemy type (disregarding that there also is only one Mega Lantern Ghost, i dont think that was meant to imply its a single entity). if they had named him something like The Lantern Lurker and kept literally everything else about him the same, we would not be having this conversation in the first place. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 09:49, February 19, 2025 (EST)
-:::::Ah, i see, ok. I understand the point better now, makes sense now. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:49, February 19, 2025 (EST)
-:::::Why do you describe it as a "distinct character"? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 00:42, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-::::::"Biggu" bosses tend to be treated as such here, like Hookbill. [https://youtu.be/NOG2lgqa-mE?t=852 Lighthouse God] follows that convention. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:55, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::Again, "tends to" doesn't mean it's a hard, unbroken rule. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 17:07, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::A better example might be [[Raphael the Raven]], or ''Biggu Kyūchan'' in Japanese, who is depicted in this very game as undeniably a unique individual. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:43, February 21, 2025 (EST)
-::::::it has a unique role (being a miniboss and holding Watt hostage), a unique appearance (bandage), and at the time of the game's release, it was unique in that there hadn't been any big Lantern Ghosts before. unless you're trying to tell me the Yoshi's New Island's developers specifically brought back a random miniboss from Paper Mario as an enemy in one level, instead of just arriving at the idea of "lantern ghost but big" independently, i don't think these are the same subject. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 14:38, February 21, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::The Hammer Bros. in SMRPG have a unique role (miniboss, holding Toad hostage) and have dialogue that distinguishes them as having a specific personality, but we don't make a page for them. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:40, February 21, 2025 (EST)
-::::::::They have neither a unique name nor a unique appearance. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:36, February 21, 2025 (EST)
-For what it's worth, in the English script, Goombario calls it "a" Big Lantern Ghost. Note that in the Japanese language, there is no word/article that corresponds to "a" or "the," so the statement there could be interpreted as "that is a Big Lantern Ghost," "that is the Big Lantern Ghost," or just "that is Big Lantern Ghost." At the same time, in Japanese the "biggu" enemies are treated as species-or-character-when-the-situation-calls-for-it, not unlike Yoshi, Toad, Magikoopa, Boom Boom, Wiggler, Birdo, et al, which is more difficult for the English script to do since they decided to give the SMW2 bosses wacky names for the localization - and at the same time, [[Naval Piranha|Biggu Packun]] is explicitly considered a different thing from [[Big Piranha Plant|Kyodai/Dai/Deka Packun]] according to her botanical excellency Miss Viridi in ''Smash Bros.'', so it would stand to reason the same would apply to [[Hookbill the Koopa|Biggu Nokonoko]], [[Knot-Wing the Koopa|Biggu Patapata]], and [[Punkey the Pokey Prince|Biggu Sanbo]], among others. With all that said, we again have merged Biggu Wanwan (Chomp Shark) to [[Big Chain Chomp|Deka Wanwan]] more recently, and the was a one-appears-at-a-time entity that could just as easily be treated as a recurring individual in SMW2, but appeared en mass in SPP. So make of all that what you will. If this does get merged, Super Blooper, TTYD Blooper, and everything to do with the Lava Piranha might need re-evaluated as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:55, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-:One of the key differences, though, is that all those other "biggu" enemies were transformed by Kamek. Biggu Pakkun was a transformation by Kamek, giving him new abilities, more extensive vines, and a particular weakness. Deka Pakkun is just a larger Piranha Plant and behaves the same otherwise.  I was under the impression that was what made them unique and what earned them their own page. But Mega Kantera was not transformed by Kamek. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 19:19, February 20, 2025 (EST)