Editing Talk:Mario Kart Wii

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*'''[[Talk:Mario Kart Wii/Archive 1|Archive 1]]'''
*'''[[Talk:Mario Kart Wii/Archive 2|Archive 2]]'''
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==PAL to NTSC==
Hello there everyone. :)

Now that I've got almost every character and nearly a * rank, I'm turning my attention to this article. I notice that PAL players have already got the basics down, but according to the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]], we must use NTSC as the main and mention any PAL differences as the side. This doesn't just affect DK's Snowboard Cross to DK Summit, mind you:
*Quite a few vehicles have different names: Rapide --> Zip Zip, Nitrocycle --> Sneakster, etc. Stats are still the same, though.
*Competitions on Mario Kart Wii channel are called Tournaments

I would think there are other small tidbits as well. If I could get some more NTSC players to find all the differences between this and the PAL version, that would be great. :) {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 11:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Argg! I have said it 2 times before and I will say it again. Use both the PAL and NTSC names. PAL names aren't less official than the NTSC names. If we use only NTSC names it will be confusing for PAL readers. And if we only use PAL names, it's confusing for NTSC readers. {{User:Arend/Sig}}
:I said NTSC as the primary names and PAL as the secondary. We can't treat them equally, but close to it is fine. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 14:52, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

I agree using both names is MUCH better as this was  one of the only european pages as everyday this site is becoming more of an american site than an american AND a european site we should do a vote to decide what to do BEFORE we take action [[User:Superluigigalaxy|Superluigigalaxy]]  18:43 8 May 2008

Finally, something has been done to deal with this. I think we should change the WiiVehicles template to NTSC naming. For PAL people, we can have a redirect. I've already seen a redirect from the [[Bon Bon]] to the [[Sugarscoot]]. That way, both can be happy. {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 15:36, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

I think I have to agree with superluigigalaxy, because until something is officially chosen, the articles are going to keep on changing. I just saw someone add both names to the main article, and that really can't be done. Maybe we should make it a proposal? {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 16:20, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

The new vehicle chart is a step in the right direction but having two versions of the chart for PAL and NTSC is not gonna work. Names are the only difference, and the two big obnoxious charts is a lot of extra space for a simple difference of naming. [[User:Wholahay|Wholahay]] 15:56, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

I own the PAL version of Mario Kart Wii, and the worldwide challenges are called Competitions not Tournements, I'm not sure whether this is because the PAL version has a different name for it or not, but I think it needs revising. Please can someone with the NTSC version confirm this.
By the way, I'm from Europe, and it is unfair to decide that because the majority of users are American that all articles should be written for American readers. I know that even though we don't have as many European '''users''', we are open to European viewers just as much as American viewers.
[[User:Scruffy|Scruffy]] 12:39 20 December 2008 (GMT)
:I think Steve has statistics that show that 1% of the site's viewers are Europeans. The problem with naming is that an article can't have two names. So we had to go for the American names. Any European names are still listed in the article and there are redirects: [[Bon Bon]].
:And yes the American name for competitions is tournaments. It should even be in the article:
<blockquote>"Tournament Mode" (also known as Competition mode in PAL versions)</blockquote>
:- {{User:Cobold/sig}} 08:00, 20 December 2008 (EST)

:I don't exactly know what PAL and NTSC means, but in the American and European version (for exaple) the [[Bon Bon]] is called the [[Bon Bon]]. In Africa, it's called the [[Sugarscoot]]. Why don't we redirect them as [[Bon Bon]]/[[Sugarscoot]], then? Or maybe as [[Bon Bon]] (known in Africa as the Sugarscoot) {{User:Toad'ShyGuy/sig}}

== Tricks? Stunts? ==

What are they called in the game & manual in English? My version only knows stunts. The article seems to know both. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 16:13, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

They're called [[Trick|tricks]] :) {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 16:18, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
:I checked back my German manual and it still reads "Stunts". Maybe add a note to PAL difference and use "Tricks" on the other parts of the article. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 16:21, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Tricks, stunts both have nearly the same meaning. I don't think we need to go out of our way just the note that.{{User:Knife/sig}} 12:29, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
:I lost you in the second sentence. What should we do exactly? - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 12:33, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Do nothing. Its fine to use them interchangeably.{{User:Knife/sig}} 14:51, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

==twinkle stars an item?==
when i clicked on the twinkle star i came up as the shooting star "item", can someone tell me why this has been done please! [[User:Superluigigalaxy|Superluigigalaxy]]
:Sounds like you are referring to the [[wikipedia:Help:Pipe trick|pipe trick]]. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 05:32, 11 May 2008 (EDT)


--http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/1b/Mauj.gif 19:55, 12 May 2008 (EDT) Baby Luigi:Unlock 8 Expert Staff Ghost, but like!!? I do not understand!
:It means that eight of the staff records for Time Trial must be unlocked, but I'm not sure how you unlock those. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 23:22, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

--http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/1b/Mauj.gif 16:40, 14 May 2008 (EDT) Thanks stumpers!

--http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/1b/Mauj.gif 16:33, 13 May 2008 (EDT)Hello!, well, and the mode: Bob-omb Blast of Mario Kart Double Dash!!, return in Mario Kart Wii?
:Not that I am aware. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 23:22, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

--http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/1b/Mauj.gif 16:40, 14 May 2008 (EDT) uummm..


There are two kinds of Staff Ghosts, Juniors and Experts. After you select a course on Time Trials, you can see your Ghost and the Junior SG. If you get a certain time, which is about 4 seconds faster than the Junior SG on most courses, it will say "You have unlocked an Expert Staff Ghost". If it says that, the Junior SG will be replaced by the Expert SG. And it doesn't mark the courses where you got an Expert SG. And the only Battle Modes are Coin Runners and Balloon Battle {{User:Freekhenstra/sig}}

--http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/1b/Mauj.gif 16:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)Aahh,is easy!.

--http://www.mariowiki.com/images/1/1b/Mauj.gif 16:40, 14 May 2008 (EDT)Oh buuu, I like the mode: Bomb-omb Blast,mmmm, well, Thanks, thanks, boys!!

== Trivia ==

I'm putting this up EARLY, cuz I see a horrible edit/flame war coming up between [[User:Garlic Man|Garlic Man]] and [[User:ForeverDaisy09|ForeverDaisy09]]. Talk it out here before you choose to start an edit war. {{User:Pokemon DP/sig}}

== Size classes America-only? ==

I checked the manual, and I checked the game, and they both use Light - Medium - Heavy for me. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 11:45, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

No. The manual uses the weight-class system. But when I played the game and I unlockt a kart or bike, it said for example ''You have unlockt the Large kart Aero Glider''. {{User:Arend/Sig}}
:Read the title. My version, the European one, definitely uses weight classes, in manual and the unlock screens. I figure that the weight classes were changed to size classes in the American version, which was released later on. This would also explain why the manual uses weight classes nevertheless. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 17:35, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
::Yes &ndash; on unlock screens it says "You unlocked a small size kart, the Blue Falcon". {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 17:49, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Please note, Cobold, that Arend is European. :| {{User:Pokemon DP/sig}}
:But from where in Europe? {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 17:56, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

I am Dutch (Nederlands). But in almost every Nintendo game (and all Mario games), there isn't Dutch language option. The game uses the English language. {{User:Arend/Sig}}
:Gotcha.  Thanks very much!  So what we might be looking at is that the English language versions use the big/little classes.  I wonder if just German version uses the classic system or if the French/Spanish/etc. versions do, too? {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 14:10, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
::My version says that I have unlocked the "Blue Falcon (Leicht)". The game uses Leicht, Mittel and Schwer, which definitely translate to Light, Middleweight and Heavy and not to size classes. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 14:26, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
:::Don't worry, I wasn't doubting you! :) {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 17:46, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
::::In the American Spanish version of the game, the karts are "Pequeños", "Medianos" and "Grandes", which means, "Small", "Medium" and "Large". And, anyway, the size of your Mii is decided by the size. I already make the experiment. (I'm latinamerican by the way. Sorry for the grammars horrors) --[[User:GinnyN|GinnyN]] 20:27, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

If you change the language of the Wii, the language of the games change too (I don't know if it works on American Wii's). There are 3 language options (6 on PAL Wii's). English, French, Spanich, (German, Italian and Dutch). It's only possible to choose the Japanese language on JP Wii's. You can change language in the Wii option menu. {{User:Arend/Sig|You probably knew this information, but it's worth noticing.}}

:Just a reminder, the standard vehicles have S, M, and L to tell the difference. {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 20:13, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

==Staff Ghosts==
Shouldn't we make a table for the normal staff ghosts and the expert staff ghosts? The staff ghosts were listed in Mario Kart DS, I think we should list them here unless we list them on the courses' main articles. Is this a good idea? {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 21:37, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
:I think they fit best on this page. We should list the driver and time of the junior staff ghost, the unlock time for the expert staff ghost and the driver and the time of the expert staff ghost itself. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 13:17, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
We should also list what kart/bike they use. The kart/bike that the staff use is different for the juniors and the experts, although the character stays the same. Also, I'm not quite sure how to find out the unlock time because usually you have to get about 5 seconds more (just an average), but none of it is exact. Should they be combined with the courses, or have their own section? {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 13:21, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
:There should be a separate section for the ghosts. Also, some people [http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/file/942008/52407 at GameFAQs] (scroll far down) seem to have found the unlock times. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 15:42, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
That's actually just the time they got. I did some of the ghosts with a time that wasn't as fast and I still unlocked the fast ghost. {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 18:49, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
:I've actually already started work on a normal staff and expert staff table. The unlock times shouldn't be included because they aren't real times. Those are just the times the person who made the faq got. {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 20:55, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
:Yeah, the unlock times on the faq aren't official or exact in any way. I got worse times on some courses, but still unlocked it. I think a table with the normal times and expert times, along with the character and bike/kart, and the driver's name would be sufficient.{{User:garlic Man/sig}}
::Don't do unlock times, they are all subjective right now. It would take a poll of thousands of drivers (who actually remembered their unlock times) to narrow it down. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 10:59, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
:::Well is there any indication that Nintendo will release exact unlock times?  A wiki is just a repository of knowledge.  And this is knowledge that people definitely want to know being that so many of the unlocks are tied to unlocking expert staff ghost.  In that sense it can be quantified that the times are not exact and any help on finding closer to exact times is welcomed.  Something like ''"These times have been found to unlock Expert Staff Ghost.  These times are not exact.  Those with slower unlock times are encouraged to submit them  to create a more accurate representation of the Expert Staff Ghost Unlock times."''  We could start with simply finding all the time on the different web pages and making sure those times are cross referenced with personal unlock times.  [[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 15:03, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
===Staff Ghost Tables===
:::I just finished the tables, but the section I made probably needs alot of editing {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 20:11, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
::::Actually, not too much, good job overall :) {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 21:26, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
:::Thank you :) Should the ghost mode on the Mario Kart Channel be added to the ghost section? {{User:EnPeached/sig}} 21:28, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

== STOP! ==

Whoever deleted the Trivia Q I added shouldn't do it. It is TRUE!
When you choose, say, Mario, in DD, he will do the EXACT SAME ANIMATION
if you were to PUT THE CURSOR on top of Mario in Wii. 
After you choose another character and kart in DD, 
the animation Mario does will be, once again, EXACTLY THE SAME 
if you CHOOSE Mario in Wii.{{unsigned|Supernicknoboy428}}
:But is that notable? - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 16:07, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
::I think it is. I saw it on the article, and went directly to DD to see if it was true, and it was! I thought it was kinda cool. {{user:Luigi001/sig}}
:::I really don't think reused animations are notable except when they occur across two series.  Mario Party reuses animations all the time, for example. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:43, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

== final screen ==

i found a pic of the fianl congratulations screen. should  i put it on the page?
''<nowiki>(The following image is deleted upon request.)</nowiki>''

[[Image:SPM Tiptron.png|50px]][[User:mrsdaisyluigi|mrsda]][[user talk:mrsdaisyluigi|isyluigi]][[Image:MP7ArtDuo.jpg|50px]]

I don't see why not. Of course, it may be considered a "spoiler"... {{User:Dodoman/sig}}

I would say to put it in the character section. -[[User:Moonshine|Moonshine]]

Yeap, this image have better quality {{User:Birdoshi/sig}}

== Tournaments? ==

This question just rose in my head, but I couldn't help but wonder... Should we list the tournament challenges somewhere on the article? It's early, so we still have them all. In fact, only the third one started today, correct? {{User:Dodoman/sig}}

No, the second one ended today, the next one will most likely start June 1st.
And yes, they should be in the article, they're like the MKDS Missions, but online.
To avoid confusion, they're called Competitions in Europe and Tournaments in the US. {{User:Freekhenstra/sig}}



Hello there!!!,please, how can I unlock the mirror mode?? {{User:Birdoshi/sig}}

The answer should be in the article, but strangely it says nothing about unlocking requirements for Mirror Mode. My guess would be to beat every cup in in 50cc, 100cc, and 150cc. Also, please do not ask questions like this on the talk page, the talk page is for discussing improvements for the attached article.{{User:Knife/sig}} 00:27, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
:All gold cups in 50cc, 100cc and 150cc are required. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 13:02, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

::That wrong: Only Winning or Stars in 150cc cups are needed.
::Long story: A few weeks ago I needed a second account (have more tha 30 mkw friends). In respect of both meanings I started with the 150cc cups (and do not touch 50cc and 100cc), take star ranks in all cups and as result the mirror was unlocked. I don't know if winning is enough but stars in all cups are enough. Because of the comment here I have not edited the article yet. -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 11:53, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
:::There is no reaction to my sentence above. Perhaps there are two methods to unlocks the mirror cups: 1) Win all other cups. 2) Get stars in all 150cc cups. At the moment the article is 	definitely wrong (or not complete) at this point. Any suggestions? -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 12:42, 28 August 2008 (EDT)
::::Isn't it something like Get 1st Place in all 150 cc Cups? Cause, most likely you don't get first place, you won't get a star ranking. {{User:Super-Yoshi/sig}}
:::::Star ranking is more than 1st place. So I don't know if 1st places in all 150cc cups are enough. That's my problem? -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 17:28, 28 August 2008 (EDT)
::::::I have cleared my second account and made a test: First I won 7 150xx cups. In the eighth cup I take the third place: That's not enough to unlock the mirror cups. But after winning the eighth cup the mirror was unlocked. And these means: The mirror cups are unlocked by winning all 150cc cups. (see [http://wiimm.de/x/mkw-unlock-mirror-by-8-wins.jpg this picture]). I have won two cups with A and B ranking and this means that stars are not necessary. -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 06:03, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

There's a new tournament announced! Looking at the picture's (found here: http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/rmcj/tournament/index.html), you have to collect coins on Coconut Mall. {{User:Freekhenstra/sig}}
:Not only that, but karts only...grr, you really have to retry a VS Tournament a lot to get a no blue-shell, mushroom-aided time. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}}
Another tournament announced! See link above for pictures and (Japanese) description. It seems to be a VS Race on Twilight House from DS. {{User:Freekhenstra/sig}}

The Tournaments list needs to be moved.  A twice a month update is going to make the page very long and unwieldy.  Maybe a mention of that there are Tournaments and the list moved to either the bottom of the page.... or better make a sub (child) page. {{unsigned|Despyria}}

==Unlock times==
I have bought the Japanese Official guide book, and it is listed with precise unlock times for fast staff ghosts. So, I'm just making it clear that these arren't from some Gamer site, and it's official. I'll start adding them now. {{User:Garlic Man/sig}}

Also, I have a concern about the tournaments section. Right now, it's relatively small with only 7 tournaments, but 2 per month means 24 per year. That section could get massive pretty quickly; Are we still going to keep each tournament the same size? {{User:Garlic Man/sig}}

'''Discussion of my (Wiimm) last time changes (expert ghosts)'''
* In one of my accounts the race time for sherbet land is 02:42.536 and the expert ghost is unlocked. And this means that the Nintendo Official Guide book ist wrong at this point. If you want I make some screen shoots later at home.
* If you take a look at your account you can see that the expert ghost time of mario circuit 3 is 1:26.659 and not 1:29.670.
[[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 01:13, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

* Take a look at [http://wiimm.de/_etc/2008-08-13/1.jpg this picture] and you see that my time is the correct one. This can be proofed by everyone. And this means that the Nintendo Official Guide has at least one or perhaps more errors.
* The [http://wiimm.de/_etc/2008-08-13/1.jpg next picture] shows the best time of my second account. And with this best time the expert and MII-B are unlocked. And this is an other error of the guide.

[[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 11:53, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
:Are there possibly differences between the European and the American versions? I remember using an American guide for the staff ghosts, and all the times were wrong. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 13:02, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
::Yes it could be -- but i didn't belive it. 63 Nintendo ghosts have the same time but one is different? For Mario Circuit 3 it can be verified: An american guy may compare the time. 
::The unlock times is more complex. I collect here in Germany many records too find out the unlock times on an empiric way. 31 times are near by but always smaller than the times here. The differences are between 1 msec up to 1400 msec. 14 differences are smaller than 100 msec. This is a good sign for my empiric work. Only my sherbet time is greater and that time was verified by me. I think this is an error in the guide. --- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 17:47, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
:::1.4 seconds isn't too bad. Feel free to edit any of the times if they are significantly off, like Sherbet Land. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 02:30, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
::::I'm hearing a controversy about a American/PAL difference, but all of my times were from the Japanese official Nintendo guide book. o_0 {{User:Garlic Man/sig}}

I'm adding two stats to the Staff Times.  Wii Wheel and Drift Type.  It is notable that though most of the starting staff ghosts (I am assuming) are Automatic Drift and the Expert are Manual, Nin*Tkym Fast Staff on Moo Moo Meadows does the course automatic drift.  I have to open a new license and get all the normal staff ghost to finish.

[[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 20:00, 2 January 2009 (EST)

== Unlockable Characters ==

Are you sure that we need 5,000 WFC Ghost Races (one of the alternatives) for unlocking Mii outfit B? This number is awful great! -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 09:04, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
:I have the Premiere Guide, and it says that its one of the unlockable alternatives. --[[User:Palkia47|Palkia47]] 09:35, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
:: "5000 races" or "50 WFC Ghost Races" are plausible but "5,000 WFC Ghost Races" looks like an printing error. -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] 09:22, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
:::I would think so, too, but it is the truth. --[[User:Palkia47|Palkia47]] 09:38, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
::::I don't think that's excessive.  It is a lot harder to unlock all 32 fast ghost than a mere 50 Ghost Races.  Browser, Wario, or Rainbow alone could take 50 races to unlock the fast ghost.  I think it is an effort to force people doing the hard way and rewarding perserverance at the same time.  However a cheat on that is simply start a ghost race then quit it immediately.  However you would have to do that 5000 times, but I'm sure that this has occurred to other people than myself.  FYI I have the Outfit B by unlocking all Fast Ghost.[[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 16:56, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

The unlocking conditions for Mii Outfit B are as follows:

*'''Unlock''', not beat, all Expert Staff Ghosts.
*'''Win''' 5,000 WFC Ghost Races
*'''Play''', not necessarily win, 5,100 games, whether they be on Wi-Fi or not, whether they be races or battles.

{{User:Knife/sig}} 14:17, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

== Character Bonuses ==

From where was the information for Mario Kart Wii character stat bonuses obtained? The information is very unaccurate, and there is significantly more precise table of additional character stats which can be found on this page: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/file/942008/52716 For example, Dry Bowser's special stats are listed on the main article as being +2 for both Off road and Mini Turbo. However, the actual bonuses are +6 for both those stats... I've taken the liberty of changing all the stats listed on the main article to the more precise versions, if thats ok. {{unsigned|Churkirby}}

== Cup Logos ==

Shouldn't we add the 8 Cup Logos? Some cups, such as the Mushroom Cup, can just use the item picture, but other cups, like the Special Cup, have no such picture. Having the pictures in one place would be helpful. {{unsigned|StarBP}}

==New Shortcut?==
[[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Atw0v_hpQ|Click Click Here]]
{{unsigned|Panther2598}}

That wasnt much of a shortcut. -Rosalina1234

== You could improve this article ==

I didn't mean this article is terrible, but there could be improvement to it. I noticed that you keep saying "kart" most of the time, instead of "vehicle". Where are the "bikes"? <font color="red">[[User:TheMarioMan|TheMarioMan]]</font> ([[User talk:TheMarioMan|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/TheMarioMan|C]]) 05:23, 7 June 2009 (EDT)

I saw Petey, Paratroopa and Hammer Bro on the character select screen in a picture, Are they playable? [[User:LuigiFunkyandPetey6|Luigi, Funky and Petey, Heroes!!!]] 20:04, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

No, they are not playable. The picture was probably fan art, or a hack(Not to mention paratroopa is in Double Dash, and the only time I have seen Hammer Bro playable is in Mario Party 8.). I have seen every character unlocked on the selection screen and they are not there. [[User:Toolsotrade|Toolsotrade]] 19:23, 10 May 2012 (EDT)Toolsotrade
:Actually they ''were'' playable characters in the [[Mario Kart Wii/Beta elements|beta version]]. &mdash; [[File:FortuneStBowser.png|35px|Bowser|link=Bowser]]'''''<small>[[Special:Contributions/Big Koopa|<span style="color:orange;">I'm</span>]] [[User:Big Koopa|<span style="color:red;">Big</span> <span style="color:green">Koopa</span>]] ([[User talk:Big Koopa|<span style="color:purple">Talk to me!</span>]]) [[File:MP9 Bowser Jr Artwork.png|35px|Bowser Jr.|link=Bowser Jr.]]</small>''''' 20:22, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

== Petey Pirahna? Hammer Bro.? Paratroopa? ==

I was fooling around at the Spriters Resource And I was looking at the file selection Characters for Mario Kart Wii. It had Petey, Hammer Bro, and Paratroopa! I am not sure if this is custom! [[User: LuigiFunkyandPetey6|<span style="color:#006400">Luigi</span>]] [[User talk: LuigiFunkyandPetey6|<span style="color:#c87d32">Funky</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/LuigiFunkyandPetey6|<span style="color:red">And Petey!!</span>]]

Not custom, I ripped it. They're beta icons. http://www.spriters-resource.com/other_systems/mkwii/sheet/23541 [[User:Girrrtacos|-Girrrtacos]]

But, what's up with paratroopa's???

It's like one of the MKDD beta icons.

{{User:YoshiDaisyfan1/sig}}

== Rearranging ==

I have been thinking about rearranging some sections to improve flow and user friendliness.  In particular moving the vehicle graph closer to the Character Modifier chart (or other way around).  I was also thinking that the led into the vehicle graph is a little cluttered.  The vehicle type might be better served at the bottom of the graph to flow better between the character mod graph and the vehicle graph.  I would love some feedback on this and getting better linear flow through the whole article.  I would hate to start moving things just to have them moved several times to make the overall flow work better.

It might be a sizable project, better to do it once than several times.--[[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 01:15, 20 November 2009 (EST)

:I was looking at the page verses the manual pages and think I can arrange it in a better way.  I already moved vehicles and characters closer to each other.  I also plan on removing the item art from the artwork area adding that into items.  I think dropping course below vehicles, and items maybe above drivers gets it closer to the manual layout and makes more sense.--[[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 12:05, 20 November 2009 (EST)

== Vehicle Type? ==

Ok I have looked at this several times and it seems so subjective to me, at the very least in it's current form.  The vehicle type should be quantifiable, and we should have the ability to add it to the chart and lose the example portion of the explanations.  But I can't source anything in particular on the vehicle types as they apply to MKW. So as it is that area is incomplete and subjectively unhelpful.

I don't feel like I can make the determination which vehicle is which type.  Does anyone else feel up to it?  Should it be tagged as subjective until we get it sorted out?--[[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 02:02, 20 November 2009 (EST)

:It results hard determinate the exact value for each kart's stat, and the better recurrent idea is putting in this way. Sure, maybe it seems sorta inaccurate, but it makes easy for now to identify the classification. {{User:Coincollector/sig}}

::I think I managed to change that a bit to be a tad better.  I might go through and add it to the graph if I think I have a firm handle on how it should shake out.  ATM the disclaimer that it is subjective should be enough for people to form their own conclusions.--[[User:Despyria|Despyria]] 12:02, 20 November 2009 (EST)

== Ending Screens ==
Just uploaded these.

[[File:MKWEND.png|250px]] 

[[File:MKWEND2.png|250px]]

[[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] 17:50, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

: The only problem I see is this, why would you consider what you uploaded to be game artwork? I thought we mainly focus on what was released to the press in the respective sections. I'd have to take them out of the main article, but the pictures themselves can stay for further discussion for they still have a possible use for these parts (besides, you placed them here as well so that keeps them from getting them marked as "unused). --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! [[User:MeritC|User Page]] | [[User_talk:MeritC|Talk Page]] 01:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
::Another problem is that there is no Mii visible on the picture, only its shadow. Beside that, its not really an artwork but a rip, due to the missing Mii. It can be requested to take a screenshot with the standard Mii you will get from scratch in the Mii-channel.<br>{{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 05:11, 27 July 2011 (EDT)

==Faulty Link==

The link for Bowser's Castle (under the Tracks section) goes to the page for [[Bowser's Castle|Bowser's actual castle]]. Shouldn't it go the the page for the [[Bowser Castle|Bowser Castle racecourse]] page? [[User:Mpeng|Mpeng]]|[[User Talk: Mpeng|Talk]]

Or am I missing something? [[User:Mpeng|Mpeng]]|[[User Talk: Mpeng|Talk]]

== Rocket Start Explanation  ==

I recently made a minor edit describing how the rocket start can be performed. I have two things to say about it:
1. I'm not sure it's worded correctly, someone change it if it's wrong.
2. To anyone who reads this, I would recommend that someone look out for missed details like this and change them accordingly.

--ForeverForgotten


== Music ==

Don't you think moving the music things to the track they belong to would make more sense than just dropping them on this page? {{User| Why Bother}}
:I think it's done that way so people don't have to go to a specific article for a specific piece of music. The same thing was done with DK64 when I uploaded music from it. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}} 22:53, 13 July 2011 (EDT)
::Maybe, but shouldn't it also be in the specific course? Then again, if we did something like that, we'd probably also have to do the same with Super Mario Galaxy music. {{User| Why Bother}}

== Drift-Type ==

In the vehicle chart, there's a "Drift-Type" column with ''In''/''Out'' as the possible values. What does this mean? This variable could use a bullet point explaining its definition like the other stats have in the list above the chart. Thanks.--FierceDeku

Re: It means what happens when you drift. "In" means you'll turn sharper and "Out" means you turn more loosely. All karts are outies.
Most people already know what it is so theres no need to put a bullet point despite this being the only mario kart game to have vehicles that have a drift type of "In". 
[[File:Photo0058.jpg|150px]] 

[[User:Toolsotrade|Toolsoftehtrade. what do you need?]] 12:57, 9 June 2012 (EDT)Toolsotrade
== AI ==

I recently made a change to trivia about the AI and how its known to be rubber band style,
which means the AI is extremely hard and often referred to as "cheating AI". If you think its necessary to keep and improve it, be free to do so and this information has been taken from wikipedia the free encyclopedia. Thank you for contributing. --mkwiicheatback
:That is considered opinion and not fact so it shouldn't be on this article {{User|Raven Effect}}
Re:No. MarioKartWii Cheatback found that from wikipedia. Go to wikipedia and read the entire freaking thing. Its there alright. --Wikipediacontenttaker

Re:Hey. Looks like an arguement. If Raven Effect is right, then mkwiicheatback may have not used the exact words from wikipedia, or the said Rubber band AI effect maybe speculation posted on Wikipedia.
WikipediaContentTaker maybe his sockpuppet, but the Rubberband effect speculation can be seen in the reception area on the article on wikipedia if you look closely. This is really all I can say about this "Speculation"(It is not an opinion though.) I really cant help any farther here but the administrators other than raven effect can negotiate to solve it. 
[[File:Photo0058.jpg|150px]] 

[[User:Toolsotrade|Toolsoftehtrade. what do you need?]] 15:55, 13 June 2012 (EDT)Toolsotrade

==Stars, not asterisks!!==
The staff ghosts are listed with an asterisk replacing a star. This is common, however, Mario Kart 7's includes the stars. This can be fixed, and should be, its a featured article!! {{User:Baja/Sig}} 15:23, 17 August 2012 (EDT)

Never mind, this has been fixed. {{User:Baja/Sig}} 15:26, 17 August 2012 (EDT)

==Nin★Ichiro = Ichiro Suzuki? SOLVED==
Prior to the recent events, Ichiro Suzuki was on the Seattle Mariners (MLB). He was just traded to the Yankees, but I was reading up on the Wiki and discovered that none other than ''Nintendo'' is the primary owner of the Seattle Mariners! Also, if you pay attention to the credits in Mario Kart games, you see ''Ichiro Suzuki'' occasionally. Could this Ichiro be the baseball player?
P.S. I tried looking this up on Google, but the recent trade made it difficult. {{User:Baja/Sig}} 15:32, 17 August 2012 (EDT)

Edit: I just looked this up here: http://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Kart_DS/Staff#Item_Programming and discovered that it indeed is the very same Ichiro. Wow, I never knew that before!

Is this trying to help out the wiki or does it belong in mindless junk? {{user:New Super Yoshi/sig}}

== Letter and star rankings on GP? ==

Some of the unlockables are to get a * ranking on a certain cups.  Does anyone know what gives you the particular rankings?  Should this article have a section on the rankings?
--Rosalina's stars 12:31, 26 September 2012 (EDT)

==Rosalina==

I unlocked her just by owning Super Mario Galaxy, i didn't win 50 races, i think i just got the game and she was unlocked due to my love for galaxy/ owning the game before getting mario kart wii.
can we remove "win 50 race", as it is false.[[Special:Contributions/86.148.182.78|86.148.182.78]] 14:57, 3 January 2013 (EST)
:It's not supposed to be winning 50 races, you're supposed to simply do 50 races. I had a Super Mario Galaxy save file and I immediately didn't unlock her. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

i didn't even play the game and i unlocked her. i just started the game and i unlocked her. thats all. no races done. [[Special:Contributions/86.148.182.78|86.148.182.78]] 14:57, 3 January 2013 (EST)
:That's odd. I didn't unlock her automatically when I played. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

Weird, well i suppose something weird happened to my game or Wii. [[Special:Contributions/86.148.182.78|86.148.182.78]] 14:57, 3 January 2013 (EST)

==Gallery==

on the bike and kart articles they have images of the game which aren't on the gallery. I don't have an account (but act like i do) so i don't think i can add them. may someone sort this out? [[Special:Contributions/86.148.182.78|86.148.182.78]] 13:38, 4 January 2013 (EST)

== A quastain ==

Reference 4 shows in the items part error margin. What does that mean. {{unsigned|98.237.82.127}}

:You'll have to be more specific. Reference four is on the Bonuses and Vehicles section, not items.

:{{User:YoshiKong/sig}} 18:32, 16 January 2013 (EST)

The right has items and one of the things there is error margin.what does that mean?
Item possibilities it techinelly is what is error margin

Can somebody answer?? 98.237.82.127
:The table is just an estimate. There are probably some errors made due to the estimation. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

== Revert the names back to PAL == 

I don't understand! Please rename the karts back to the PAL versions, it makes it easier to know which is which.
:Just think about it. If we renamed every kart to the PAL version, then Amercians could say "rename the karts back to the American version, it makes it easier to know which is which". Since there are more Americans visitors than English ones, we chose to name the karts (and every single other article in the wiki) after the north american name. It's the policy. {{User:Banon/sig}} 18:22, 31 March 2013 (EDT)
:No, more versions have the PAL names. Unless the policy had no idea but to give out that stupid rule.

[[User: A Paragoomba and the Koopa Bros.|The fluttering fire Paragoomba]] 14:38, 6 April 2013 (EDT)
:What's wrong with the names now? We provide BOTH PAL and American names for this article, so I don't see the problem here. And excuse me, if you're going to say, "that American rule is stupid", I'm just going to say that "renaming all the names to PAL" is a stupid move too.
{{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:51, 6 April 2013 (EDT)

== Default colors on info-boxes ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|cancelled}} 
Lately I have saw a lot of kart articles that have the wrong default colors on the info-boxes, (like seeing Diddy Kong's Sugarscoot instead of Peach's, the latter has the default color) So we should be better when it comes to them.

'''Proposer''': {{User|A Paragoomba and the Koopa Bros.}}<br>
'''Deadline''': 17th May 2013, 23:59

====Support====
#{{User|A Paragoomba and the Koopa Bros.}} Per proposal

====Oppose====

====Comments====

== Exact values for "Vehicle Stats" and "Driver Bonuses" ==

If you want more exact values, visit my (German) site:
* [http://wiimm.de/wii/mkw/vehicle/ Vehicle Stats]
* [http://wiimm.de/wii/mkw/driver/ Drive Bonuses]
I have found the tables in the MKWii DVD and copied them to my website. Some values are multiplied by a factor to get more manageable values. For offroad I recommend the column O2 or O3.

[[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] ([[User talk:Wiimm|talk]]) 16:00, 4 June 2013 (EDT)

== Help ==

I know this isn't the right place for match-making races, but where can I go to do so? [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 00:16, 7 July 2013 (EDT)

== Why removing item durations ==

: See this diff: http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&diff=prev&oldid=1543890
: The item durations were removed and an old false info inserted again (Mega Mushroom is not invincible for Lightning Bolt).
: Why? -- [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] ([[User talk:Wiimm|talk]]) 15:58, 31 August 2013 (EDT)
::It was an anon edit, replace the info with the factual one. {{User|Yoshi876}}

== Original Track, Arena, Driver and Vehicle Names in 10 languages/dialects ==

:See this: http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Track
:Is it interesting for this wiki?
:All info are copied directly from internal MKWii files. I will do similar for driver and vehicles.
:[[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] ([[User talk:Wiimm|talk]]) 05:49, 10 September 2013 (EDT)
:: And now in all 10 languages/dialects supported by Nintendo.
:: [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] ([[User talk:Wiimm|talk]]) 17:34, 11 September 2013 (EDT)
::: Last not least: [http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Drivers_%26_Vehicles Drivers and Vehicles]
::: Inserting are the alternative names for Rosalina: Rosalinda, Harmonie and Estela.
::: [[User:Wiimm|Wiimm]] ([[User talk:Wiimm|talk]]) 08:12, 15 September 2013 (EDT)

== Hidden Levels? ==

I so on a website that in mariokart wii there are some hidden levels that go on forever that are inaccessible without hacking.
Is theis true?

http://www.cracked.com/article_20125_the-6-creepiest-glitches-in-famous-video-games-part-2_p2.html
this is where i found it from. {{unsigned|60.242.2.211}}

== Confusing wording? ==

In the trivia section, one of the statements is: "Mario Kart Wii is the only game in the Mario Kart series where the weight classes have equal characters, if one does include the download play exclusive Shy Guy in Mario Kart DS."

I don't understand what this means for two reasons. First, because I'm not sure what "equal characters" refers to. Some kind of character attribute besides weight? And second, because I would guess from the context that it should say "if one doesn't include" rather than "if one does include." I would reword the statement if I understood the intended meaning but I don't.
{{unsigned|74.78.246.111}}

== Trivia section ==

Some of the info seems really unnecesary like the Peach , Daisy and Rosalina thing . Maybe it should not be there at all? [[User:Swifite Muggle|Super Starbits]] ([[User talk:Swifite Muggle|talk]])

== New Methods to use WFC ==

I think there should be a sentence talking about efforts to create a custom WFC server after the shutdown. Wiimmfi is a prime example of this. [[User:JoshTheGMan97|JoshTheGMan97]] ([[User talk:JoshTheGMan97|talk]]) 13:45, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

== Help? ==

how do i edit the References? it looks Blank when i go into Edit Mode, all it says is "< Refrences />" without the spaces. [[User:Toad the Mushroom|Toad the Mushroom]] ([[User talk:Toad the Mushroom|talk]]) 

i wanted to edit the "Country Flag" from Spriters Resource thing, as it says "Not Found" and it's in the References... [[User:Toad the Mushroom|Toad the Mushroom]] ([[User talk:Toad the Mushroom|talk]])

==Should we add information from data mining?==

In [https://supermariofiles.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/kartcharacter-stats-mkwii-edition/ this page] and in [http://www.gamefaqs.com/wii/942008-mario-kart-wii/faqs/64637 this page as well] there is information on Mario Kart Wii coming from data mining. Should it be added to this page? if yes, how should the new section be named?

== change it back ==

I think that the tables with the bonus stas. for the characters and the karts should be changed back to the way they were because it looks very confusing and I don't like the side scroll. So I think it should be changed back. {{User:Captain Toad/sig}} 09:33, 31 January 2016 (EST)
:The original tables are still there, in the proper sections, the new tables are in a different section (Actual stats). Regarding the side scroll, that shouldn't happen, as their width was specified in percentages. Has someone any formatting suggestion on how to avoid this? Is there the possibility of setting relative text size based on the display resolution?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:53, 31 January 2016 (EST)

== Battle Course music ==

The articles for all Wii battle courses should have their theme music included to improve their articles. [[User:TheUnknown67|-TheUnknown67]] ([[User talk:TheUnknown67|talk]]) 19:30, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
Note: any replies should be replied to my talk page.
:Sure, why not. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:38, 23 June 2016 (EDT)

== 100% Completion ==

I completed the mirror cups without getting at least 1 star on all of them, as such I didn't unlock Rosalina. But I got the 100% thanks for playing picture, and the title screen changed to one of the character alone, this was my only save file on the game but the article stats you need to achieve 100% for these features to show.
Overall this has made me very confused <br> {{User:The Koopa Bro./sig}} 15:39, 13 February 2017 (EST)
:This title screen should show up simply for beating Mirror Cups. So I guess that information can be changed if you will. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:40, 13 February 2017 (EST)
::Gold rank not just playing all of them. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 15:51, 13 February 2017 (EST)

== Getting star rank ==

Um,I noticed that you can unlock characters by getting star rank in cups (like Bowser Jr. unlockable by getting stars in all retro 100cc cups). It doesn't say how to get star rank, can someone add that? -[[User|PinkYoshiFan]]
:Currently Nobody Knows Precisely How To Get At Least One Star On Any Of The Mario Kart Games Other Than ''[[Mario Kart 8]]''. So Until Someone Finds That Out, No Info About That Will Be Put On There About How To Get A Star, Two Stars Or Triple Stars, For Completing A Grand Prix Cup.<br> {{User:The Koopa Bro./sig}} 12:07, 12 March 2017 (EDT)

== The Koopalings ==

Uh,the Koopalings are in Mario Kart Wii. Wariopig,Master Of Disguise
:[[Mario Kart Wii#Drivers|No, they aren't]]. Just Bowser, and him in Jr. and Dry forms. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:45, 17 April 2017 (EDT)

== Unlocking Rosalina ==

I have seen other websites that say you can get Rosalina by earning 1 star in each of the 100cc cups and unlocking 18 expert staff ghosts.  Is this true?  If so, we should add it to the article. -[[User:YoshiFlutterJump|YoshiFlutterJump]] ([[User talk:YoshiFlutterJump|talk]]) 15:07, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

:That's false. If that was true, then I would've unlocked her before I started the Mirror Cups. Rosalina can be unlocked earlier if you own a copy of Super Mario Galaxy though. <br> {{User:The Koopa Bro./sig}} 15:27, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

::Speaking of which, is it possible to unlock Rosalina with SMG2?  Some websites say you can and others say you can't. -[[User:YoshiFlutterJump|YoshiFlutterJump]] ([[User talk:YoshiFlutterJump|talk]]) 20:20, 30 April 2017 (EDT)
::I doubt it, considering SMG2 was not released until after Mario Kart Wii. MKWii wouldn't know what to look for. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:21, 30 April 2017 (EDT)
:::It can't. I have SMG2 and not the original, and it didn't unlock Rosalina. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 20:27, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

== Battle Course Minimaps==
I noticed that none of the battle courses from this game have any of their mini maps on their pages. I was wondering if I could add them so it would be more consistent with the other Mario Karts or if I should just leave them alone. {{User:LuigiMaster123/sig}} 21:22, 15 July 2017 (EDT)
:Just add them if you can, I don't think there's a particular reason why they're missing.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 01:47, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
::They're missing mostly because mini-maps are actually flattened 3D models, and you need SZS Modifier with the tracks extracted to view them. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 01:49, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

== Recent change in terminology ==

I would like to raise a major complaint with a recent change to the terminology made on this page regarding the way a kart drifts. From what I can tell, the reason said terminology was changed was because Nintendo's guidebook lists karts as being either "hang on" or "drift", which correlates to whether a kart of bike uses inside or outside drifting. I however do not think this is a particularly good reason to suddenly change the terminology, particularly without having a discussion on the matter first. The fact is, Nintendo has a history of poorly naming mechanics in their games, and as such their terms are sometimes rejected by the community. A good example of this is in the game "Super Smash Bros.", where what are referred to by 99% of the smash community as "tilts" are officially referred to by Nintendo as "strong attacks", despite most of them actually being rather weak attacks. In this case, "drift" and "hang on" do not even remotely describe the different ways in which some bikes drift that differs from the drifting of the other bikes and karts. Inside and outside drifting are the terms that have been used by the Mario Kart community for a very long time, while these "official" terms are so obscure that despite being a member of the Mario Kart community for quite some time, I (along with many other people) have never even heard of these terms prior to seeing them replace the former terms on this page. A quick Google search quickly reveals that these terms are, in fact, never used in the Mario Kart community outside of to simply state that those are technically the official terms. Furthermore the description provided on the article for what these different vehicle types mean is incredibly misleading, even implying that outside drifting vehicles are better than inside drifting ones (which is emphatically false).

For these reasons listed above, I would like to request that the replacement of the widely excepted drifting terms with these new ones be strongly reconsidered, as alienating the Mario Kart community by listing terms that are never actually used or often even recognized by the community seems like a very bad idea to me. I understand that the page is semi-protected, so since I am not autoconfirmed I obviously am not capable of making any fixes to the currently poor descriptions of these new terms in the event that they are decided to be kept anyway. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 13:13, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:There was a [[Talk:Bike#Create_the_Standard_bike_.28vehicle_class.29_and_Sport_bike_.28vehicle_class.29_pages_and_limit_the_use_of_the_unofficial_inside_drifting_and_outside_drifting_terms|proposal]] for changing the terminology. Also, we use official terms rather than popular, but community-made terms. As shown on the proposal, there are three different guides that show that these terms are unofficial. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 13:20, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::As a general rule that may be fine, but in the case that the official term is so obscure that few people even know it exists, I think that is rather foolish. What good is using official terminology when nobody knows what you are talking about? The purpose of a wiki first and foremost is to be informative, and being so remarkably out of touch with the community you are trying to inform will just end up confusing people rather than informing them, hence you have fundamentally failed as a wiki. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 14:06, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::So are we done here? [[User:Inhaler|Inhaler]] ([[User talk:Inhaler|talk]]) 22:01, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::One other thing: Nintendo themselves aren't even consistent with regards to what they call it. In Mario Kart Wii they referred to it in the guidebook as "drift" and "hang on", but then they later changed their mind and now refer to bikes as being either regular or sports bikes. Since the official term in itself has a tendency to change, then surely that should be even more proof that using the official term is a bad idea, since there essentially is no official term to begin with. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 14:29, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::"''The purpose of a wiki first and foremost is to be informative''" We are. The original terms, as widely accepted as they are, were unofficial. If there is an official name that can be found, be it for terms, characters names, items, etc., we will use the official terms instead. They may not be commonly known now, but who knows? Maybe they will be, as you said yourself, the point of the wiki is to be informative. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:42, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::But again, these are not the official terms. Nintendo has since changed their minds on what the official terms are, and will likely change them again. There essentially is no official term, so why attempt to make something out of nothing? [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 14:44, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::Seems like everything is explained on the [[Talk:Bike#Should_articles_for_Standard_bikes_and_Sport_bikes_be_created.3F|bike talk page]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:46, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::I know I don't normally make an appearance on this wiki, but I thought I would drop by to throw my hat into the ring (as I was made aware of this situation through Trainer Alex): it is my firm belief that, if something in a game is referred to by, and is much better known by, a fan name, then that takes priority. It might be a side effect of me spending most of my time on the SmashWiki (as [[smashwiki:SmashWiki:SmashWiki is not official|that is one of the policies over there]]), but if we take a look at the [[smashwiki:Tech|tech]] mechanic, it is officially called a breakfall in Smash 64, an "ukemi" (受け身, lit. "passive") in Brawl (directly referred to as "passive" internally in Melee and Brawl), and "breaking your fall" in Smash 4. It's still named a tech over there because that is the commonly accepted term (little to no one would know what you're talking about if you called it an ukemi), and, if I'm quoting the page directly, "the word "tech" is borrowed from the competitive communities of other fighting games and traces its origin back to technical bonuses awarded in Capcom games for performing special maneuvers to escape grab attacks and get much less damage and more recovery time."

::::::I know better than to complain about one wiki not following another wiki's policies; SmashWiki itself follows this rule too, and [[bulbapedia:User talk:Aidanzapunk|I've had little to no luck with complaining to other wikis in the past]]. But I still think that this name change is unnecessary, because, in the grand scheme of things, a colloquial term is better known than an official one if the two differ. [[Nintendo Switch|That's not to say people can't change the terms they use, however]]. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidanzapunk'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Aidanzapunk|talk]]) 16:56, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::::I think there is an important clarification to be made: the ''inside drifting bikes'' do not really drift, they commit to the turn. I suspect that the unofficial ''inside drifting'' terminology was favored by the PRIMA guide of ''Mario Kart Wii'', which didn't make such a distinction and used the term ''drift'' with all the vehicles even though the actual official guide from Nintendo clearly stated that bikes such as the Bullet Bike are hang-on tpye, i.e. rather have the biker hanging off the bike (technique that is referred to in Japan with the term ''hang-on''). Having only the English terms from the Nintendo Official Guidebook, I didn't have much choice over which terms to use. Fast forward a few years and now the PRIMA guide of ''Mario Kart 8'' finally uses official English terms to distinguish between bike types - ''standard bikes'' and ''sport bikes''. This also reflects the bikes finally being a separate class recognizable in the vehicle customization screen. Since at this point we have North American terms which allow us to distinguish between vehicle types that were previously only differentiated in terms of gameplay, I proposed to use those instead. What is relevant, by the way, is that ''inside drifting'' cannot even fully apply to the sport bikes of ''Mario Kart 8'', since they now no longer make the sharp turn toward the inside of the turn as soon as they land like in ''Mario Kart Wii'', but rather go straight until they lean, at which point they start turning. While this collides with the concept of ''inside drifting'', since they too now go toward the outside of the turn for a few moments after landing, if you watch the animation, they ultimately still commit to the turn, meaning that they are indeed the same bike types introduced in ''Mario Kart Wii''. The developers simply used a more realistic physics engine to make them behave more like real life Moto GP bikes, leading to significantly different lines with respect to those seen in ''Mario Kart Wii'', this being most evident in U turns in 200cc, where using the same strategies of ''Mario Kart Wii'' takes the bike toward the outside of the turn. At this point, using unofficial terms that mostly fail to reflect what those bikes do seems misleading to me. I understand the importance of said terms and my proposal had this aspect separated to avoid forcing this change along with the creation of the pages, furthermore I actually kept those terms in the page of the [[bike]]s and in the pages of the subtypes, [[Standard bike (vehicle class)|standard bike]]s and [[Sport bike (vehicle class)|sport bike]]s. Nonetheless, at this point I think it would simply be better to consider the hang-on type/sport bikes as bikes that lean instead of drifting - this way what happens with them in ''Mario Kart 8'' finally makes sense.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 17:07, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::::I mean, it's still considered drifting. They still use the "drift" stat, and other than not curving outwards, they behave like regular drifts (no speed loss, alterable angles without giving full angular control, mini turbo charges dependent on drift angle). Saying they "commit to the turn" implies that they're just turning, when what they are doing is very distinct from turning. Inside drifting is technically the most accurate term we have to describe it as well. As for the bikes in MK8, they kinda outside drift to begin with, before transitioning to an inside drift, so it's more of a hybrid of the two, hence I wouldn't recommend referring to them as inside drifting, but the inside bikes in MKW absolutely should be. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 17:39, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::The lines and behavior of a so called inside drifting bike has nothing to do with drifting, you can see how they are rather leaning while pointing forward when holding the jump button in Manual mode, which is not the case for outside drifting bikes, which rather point a direction almost orthogonal to where they are going. The sport bikes in Mario Kart 8 do the exact same, hence they should not deserve to be treated differently just because the community wrongly assumed that the behavior of ''Mario Kart Wii'' - always staying in the inside of the turn from the moment when they land - is the only corect one for this type of bikes, when it was likely an artifact of a less realistic physics engine back at the time. [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/wii/rmcj/pdf/p014_015.pdf Since Nintendo clearly distinguished between "drift" and "hang-on" from the start] and since in ''Mario Kart 8'' this inside drifting behavior is no longer here, but the leaning and pointing forward definitely is, we have proof that the developers were actually trying to do something different, that the community misinterpreted since back at the time the developers didn't bother changing the terms used and the North American guide didn't even use the "drift type" and "hang-on type". The community couldn't know that because most of them couldn't read the Japanese guide. But now we know what they were trying to do and ''Mario Kart 8'' showed that clearly, so I think we can start viewing things from a new point of view.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:59, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::SO, what is it you want to happen? Forgo the community approval to use these terms and ignore policy, or have another proposal to revert back to the fan-created terms? Either way, that's not how we do things here. I get SmashWiki has a different policy you're used to, but these terms are official and are used to distinguish between the different bike types. The only page I can think of where we credit an unofficial term is the [[Spiny Shell (blue)]] page, but even then, the fan term isn't what's used to define it. See also, [[MarioWiki:Naming]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:51, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::Actually, ''Blue Shell'' is an official term, [http://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26098/~/how-to-update-mario-kart-8-deluxe it was used in the version 1.3.0 patch notes of ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''].--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:59, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::Well, then. I guess we don't use fan terms at all. We use {{tem|conjectural}} terms, but that's different, as it means there no name to begin with. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:05, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::Yes, I am familiar with your stance on these things, and I strongly disagree with it. Frankly, I find this wiki's general contempt for the fanbase you are supposedly making this wiki for to be quite irritating and counterproductive, and is a big reason why I am not an editor on this wiki. That being said, if you wish to stick to your traditionalist policies, that's fine, but I would at least request that on this one instance you be a tad more lenient. The so called "official" terms you are using barely qualify as official at all, and are not used unironically anywhere other than on this wiki and in the original source (which incidentally is the only instance of these terms being used anyway). Meanwhile inside and outside drift is the widely recognized, agreed upon and used terminology for the different drift types of the karts in Mario Kart Wii, and hence I think that on this occasion you absolutely should use these unofficial terms over the abysmal attempt at an official term that you currently using. That's what I have to say on the matter, and I think you'd find that everyone in the MKW community who continue to enjoy playing the game would agree with me. If you still wish to reject this then I don't think there's anything I can say to change your mind. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 18:22, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::Hey, for what it's worth, I think Alex is right. What he's saying makes a lot of sense. [[User:Inhaler|Inhaler]] ([[User talk:Inhaler|talk]]) 18:36, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Assuming you mean Trainer Alex (my name is Alex as well :P), what he's saying may make sense, but it goes against the policy we have in place. Nothing is going to happen unless there is major community support otherwise. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:39, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Yes, I'm talking to Trainer Alex. Anyway, if it's a problem, why not just ask the community? Problem solved. [[User:Inhaler|Inhaler]] ([[User talk:Inhaler|talk]]) 18:47, 5 May 2018 (EDT)


my hot take in that the situation where a fan term is far better known than the obscure official equivalent, mentioning as an aside ("colloquially reffered to as [word]") is an acceptable thing to do to indicate that 1) yes, nerds use term X more often and it's probably what you should call it if you engage communication with said nerds and that 2) the Mariowiki willl neverthless let little stand in the way of its '''general contempt for the Mario fanbase'''.

Some may argue slipperly slope but I don't see an apocalypse of people adding Le Unofficial Term to pages forthcoming and I don't really see an issue as long as the text makes it clear it's a Nerd Name and Doesn't Come from Nintendo's Anus. Whatever. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 19:09, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:Where would that line be drawn, though? Would we add "Mario, colloquially referred to as "short, red, mustached man""? Yes, someone has actually said that to me. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:16, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::No it's a matter of context. Context is very important. Since essentially the entire MKW community refers to it by inside and outside drifting, and have never heard of these new terms, I think this is a situation in which an exception can be made to the policy. Similarly, very few people unironically call Mario "short, red, mustached man", and everyone knows him as Mario, so this would be an obvious case of when the policy absolutely should be upheld. Context matters! [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 19:22, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::Exactly. Hear us out, admins, and call us stupid, but we all think this could be a good and possibly beneficial idea. [[User:Inhaler|Inhaler]] ([[User talk:Inhaler|talk]]) 19:31, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::I feel like there's a great confusion on this. Community-made terms are already used in this wiki. Both ''inside drifting'', ''inward drifting'', ''outside drifting'' and ''outward drifting'' are used in this wiki. The community term of ''Boost'' for Mini-Turbos in ''Super Mario Kart'' is mentioned as well in the [[Mini-Turbo]] page, even though the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Kart'' clearly named them ''Mini-turbo'' and the names of the exploits in the same page are those used by the community. I never meant to remove community-made terms altogether, but in this case I asked to rather limit their use to the relevant pages of the bikes since inward drifting bikes don't drift, making the term very confusing especially in the context of ''Mario Kart 8'' where even the ''inside'' part is wrong.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:45, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::You know what else is confusing? Calling Doki Doki Panic our Super Mario 2 because it's really nothing but a copied game. But they still call it #2, don't they? [[User:Inhaler|Inhaler]] ([[User talk:Inhaler|talk]]) 20:02, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::That's completely irrelevant to this discussion. Anyway, [[Bike#Mario Kart Wii]] already has this information that's requested. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:08, 5 May 2018 (EDT)


"''Where would that line be drawn, though?''"

Short answer: You know it when you see it.

To take an example I used with you earlier: If something happened tomorrow and that the protagonist of the ''Doom'' series of video games was playable in the next ''Smash Bros''. and that the lead didn't at least off-handely mention fans of the ''Doom'' games likes to call him Doomguy over his obscure and unpopular official names, it would be ''pretty stupid'' doing a disservice to the reader by not properly contextualising the character and making onlookers wonder why every source except this dumb Mario fansite call him Doomguy. On the other hand, if I got me and some guys to refer to ''Mario Kart Wii'' with the beautiful and multi-layered name of ''Mario Kart Pee'' it wouldn't be worth mentioning. Because nobody does that.

So yeah, applying this to the matter at hand:

'''On one hand''': . Even if Mario Kart's Wii serious playerbase is sitll particularly active for a 10 years old game, the ten of thounsands (and I'm probably being ''very'' generous here) players that still actively discuss the game on forums and social medias and have developed their jargon to discuss the game is a tiny blip in the more than 37 million copies of the games sold. As the Super Mario Wiki generally leans toward a more generalist (or "normie" if you wean to be cute) coverage of the games, it could be argued that how a comparatively small number of players name The Thing That The Bike Does should matter little in how the wiki name its things. Furthermore, if the usage is so entrenched in said competitive's community, a fansite's usage of another term would do little to diminish its ability to enforce and disseminate its prefered term. 

'''On the other (and this what I'm leaning toward at the moment)''': One could also argue than anyone who specifically seek to read about ''Mario Kart Wii'' s gameplay mechanics in 2018 is going to come in contact with the more popular term, and furthermore, would probably do so in the goal of discussing the mechanic with otherp layers or writing about it. Using an aside statement to mention the fan jargon (while still using the official term in the rest of the body to respect Mariowiki's policies) would not diminish the wiki's house style while giving reader heads-up about how to discuss the game with their peer. Basically: '''context and audience matters'''. 

I don't see a sliperry slope fallacy being ground against this, but I don't feel strongly about this particular instance either. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 20:12, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:I just don't see this being a good idea at all. The closest we really come to fan created terms are conjectural articles, but that's because a name hasn't actually been found for something. Using a fan name for something that already has an established name just seems very unnecessary. IMO, I'd go with "Doomguy"'s unpopular official name over a fan name, because he actually has a name (sure, I don't know what it is because I don't play Doom, and this is my first time hearing "Doomguy", but that's beside the point). Popularity of the name shouldn't be the determining factor for how we name something, otherwise we'd have the ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' article labeled ''SMB3'' or ''Super Mario 3'', because those are just easier to say. [[MarioWiki:Naming|Nowhere on MarioWiki:Naming does it say we can use fan created terms outside of conjectural articles]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:26, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::Renaming ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' to an abbreviation is not the same case at all. I'm not going to sugarcoat this: that is a pretty piss poor comparison, though not as bad as "short, red, mustached man" and ''Mario 2''/''Yume Kōjō'' from above. I say that the aside thing that Glowsquid mentioned is really the best option; it keeps the wiki consistent in using official terms, but it also helps avoid confusion. [[User:PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) 21:39, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::Are we done here? [[User:Inhaler|Inhaler]] ([[User talk:Inhaler|talk]]) 22:01, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
::::Nothing can really be done anyway until after the 28 days of the previous proposals are finished, at that point I can make a second proposal to add the "commonly referred to" statements to other pages, so we see the opinions on the matter.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:25, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::"''Using a fan name for something that already has an established name just seems very unnecessary.''"
:::::I again reiterate that this is not something to be applied to everything. Your argument towards Mario 3 is a good example (despite it not being relevant to bring up when you did): an acronym is something we wouldn't change because it's just a simpler way to refer to something longer (and thus would be made into a redirect), but if something is better known by a different name, then people will have better luck finding it by that name instead of the official one. Tripping in ''Smash'' is officially called "prat falling", but no one calls it that; Lucario and Charizard's Final Smashes are both officially called [[Mega Evolution]], but fans call them Mega Lucario and Mega Charizard X, respectively; if you want a non-Smash related comparison, the avatars from ''Fire Emblem Awakening''/''Fates'', officially, have no name, but they're commonly referred to by their default names, [[Robin]] and [[Corrin]], respectively. Even in real life, if someone is known by a nickname, you're more likely to know that person if someone mentions their nickname to you rather than their real name. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidanzapunk'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Aidanzapunk|talk]]) 15:55, 6 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::Again, the [[Bike]], [[standard bike (vehicle class)|standard bike]] and [[sport bike (vehicle class)|sport bike]] pages contain all the terms: ''inside drifting bike'' (which '''is not the term currently used''' by the competitive community, but rather by Reddit, GameXplain and this wiki), ''inward drifting bike'' ([https://forums.mkboards.com/threads/underused-lounge.25299/ which '''is the term currently used'''] [https://docs.google.com/document/d/18sR5iTjsbgKJO1eSmnoKqs2Iv4DeZ5v0orO_I9AJr5M/edit by the competitive community]), ''outside drifting bike'' (which '''is not currently used''' by the competitive community), ''outward drifting bike'' ([https://forums.mkboards.com/threads/underused-lounge.25299/ which '''is currently used'''] [https://docs.google.com/document/d/18sR5iTjsbgKJO1eSmnoKqs2Iv4DeZ5v0orO_I9AJr5M/edit by the competitive community]). Your point about searching the bike type doesn't really apply.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 16:34, 6 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::Aidanzapunk explains why [[Shell Helmet]] and [[Shellmet]] should be kept: They are called these by the SMM community. But, these names refer to two different things. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 09:42, 7 May 2018 (EDT)

One thing that can be done without colliding with the current proposal is adding redirects: now if we search for [[inside drifting bike]], [[inward drifting bike]], [[inward-drifting bike]], [[outside drifting bike]], [[outward drifting bike]] and [[outward-drifting bike]] we are taken to the appropriate pages. Sorry that I didn't think about manually adding those by myself when I created the pages, I should have done so since those terms are mentioned in the introductions of the pages (while the variations ''inward-drifting'' and ''outawrd-drifting'' are effectively used by the competitive ''Mario Kart Wii'' community in the rules of tournaments).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2018 (EDT)

So....why did they end up being made? From what I can see above, general consensus says these ''shouldn't'' be used even as redirects, because something about competitive communities needing to be held in contempt and not given credence when there's official names that are different. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:05, 11 May 2018 (EDT)
:Those names are mentioned in the introductions of the pages, as this was part of the proposal, plus someone looking for the most common terms should find the pages that then show what are the official terms. One thing is having those names widely used on the Wiki - not agreed upon -, one thing is allowing people who look for the most common terms using the search function to find the correct pages, which then rather use the official terms.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:17, 12 May 2018 (EDT)
::"Most common" doesn't mean "those solely used by ''some'' die-hard circles," though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:23, 12 May 2018 (EDT)
:::To be fair, variants of those terms are also used on Reddit and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3v8amOGKBs even GameXplain used the terms ''inside drifting'' and ''outside drifting'']. After all, only recently we discovered that those terms likely stemmed from the community and that in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Mario Kart Wii'' Nintendo had used alternative terms that showed how hanging off the bike was not considered drifting.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:26, 12 May 2018 (EDT)
::::So? Reddit using a term that Nintendo doesn't makes it even less credible than Nintendo simply not using it, TBH, as it makes it even more fancruft-y. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:52, 12 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't talking about the origin of the terms, just how much they are used among the players' community. These terms were not found on the guides, so they most likely stem from the community of players who played ''Mario Kart Wii'' and are still widely in use nowadays - Reddit was just an example of a non-competitive community that nonetheless uses them, much like GameXplain is not a channel dedicated just to competitive players. In terms of content, this wiki switched to the official terms following my proposal, with the unofficial terms now being mentioned in the pages of the vehicles classes. Still, when it comes to searches, the users are more likely to use the unofficial terms, hence the redirects and the disambiguation page, whose aim is not adding or changing content on the pages of this wiki, but rather directing users to the pages they are looking for, which then use the official terms. The discussion above is about the introduction of the unofficial terms along with the official ones in other pages as well, such as this one, which is a matter of actual content in the pages. If you think we should extend the limitations of my proposal to the redirects, this would be a different discussion which likely warrants a different proposal as well to have actual effects, since even the current limitations find some people in disagreement.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:50, 13 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::Wow, I was reading through this and you guys are incredibly out of touch with the Mario Kart Wii Community. Additionally, for the record "inside" and "inward" drifting are both used completely interchangeably by the community, so I don't know where you're getting your information from on that regard...

::::::In any case I was wondering what the name of the guidebook that these new terms came from is, as I couldn't find them in the instruction booklet that comes with the game. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 08:09, 8 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::Looking back through the conversation, it looks like the ''Mario Kart 8'' Prima guide. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 21:01, 8 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::If by "Mario Kart Wii Community" you mean the competitive ''Mario Kart Wii'' community, stating that people here are "incredibly out of touch" with it [https://forums.mkboards.com/threads/meet-the-boost-counter-mini-turbos-best-friend-since-1992.41626/ might be a bit inappropriate...]
:::::::The guidebook we are referring to, which are referenced in the respective pages of the bike types, are [https://www.shogakukan.co.jp/books/09227127 the ''Nintendo Official Guidebook'' of ''Mario Kart Wii''], [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/wii/rmcj/pdf/p014_015.pdf page 14 and following]. In the case of ''Mario Kart 8'', we refer to the ''Mario Kart 8 Official Game Guide'' by PRIMA, page 28.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:48, 8 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::A better point would be that it doesn't matter how "in" or "out of touch" people are with that community, but that, due to them being little more than a fan group with no officiality whatsoever, it doesn't matter what nicknames they give things. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:49, 9 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::Except that it does. Since everyone uses the terms inside and outside drifting, newer players are going to just end up being confused by the poor attempt of this wiki at describing the different drift types. You act as though "drift" and "hang-on" are the official terms, but they're not. Some random employee at Nintendo decided to call them that at the time of the guidebook being written, but Nintendo have since changed their stance to classifying bikes as either standard or sports bikes, so if you wanted to actually use the official terms, at the very least you should change the vehicle type column categories to "Kart", "Bike" and "Sports Bike", as those are in fact the official terms. But even then, I would argue that this doesn't really explain the fundamental difference in how the two bike types drift (but it's leaps and bounds better than "drift" and "hang-on", especially since the hanging on animation is specific to the character, NOT the bike. Characters like King Boo who hang on to bikes when drifting will hang on regardless of if the bike is inside or outside drifting). [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 05:22, 9 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::Pardon me, "everybody?" I certainly don't. Methinks this community may be smaller than you let on. Where are those terms used in any '''official''' writing? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:33, 9 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::For the umpteenth time, I am aware that they are not the "official" terms, but "Drift" and "Hang on" are not the official vehicle type terms either. The official terms are Kart, Bike and Sports Bike. [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 08:01, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::Expect that "drift" and "hang on" are still official terms, they're just obsolete since we got these new official terms. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:29, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::Or rather, they are still the official terms for MKW, while "Standard Bike" and "Sport Bike" are the ones for MK8. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:35, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''Where'' in ''MKW'' material are they called that? In this kudzu of a conversation, I can't figure it out. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:05, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The terms are used in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Mario Kart Wii'', [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/wii/rmcj/pdf/p014_015.pdf page 14 and following]. In particular, the terms used are 「ドリフトタイプ」 and 「ハングオンタイプ」, that are English words written in Katakana, more specifically ''drift type'' and ''hang-on type''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:23, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::OK, well until we have "salaryman" redirect to [[Businessman]] and "Heyho" redirect to [[Shy Guy]], this will be a ''very glaring'' exception to how we do things. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:07, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::The PRIMA guide of ''Mario Kart Wii'' doesn't distinguish between bike types, hence the official English words come from the official guide of Nintendo, which does distinguish between bike types. Also, there's no redirection at all, we use sport bike and standard bike links and we didn't make a redirection link for hang-on type and drift type.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:33, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::OK, well people keep telling me contradictory information on this, and like I said before, this conversation is unfollowable kudzu at this point. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:46, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Wait, so those terms ''aren't'' even the official english terms, and they're just a (seemingly rather poor) translation of the Japanese text? Why then are they being used as if they're the official english terms? [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 15:36, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::They are official English terms, just written with Japanese characters - Katakana. Not every English word in Japan is written with Latin script.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:51, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

== Havok? ==

Does this game run on the Havok engine like ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl?'' {{unsigned|69.127.38.51}}
:As far as I know, this wasn't confirmed so far, and I doubt it, since neither the logo nor info about the use of that engine are found in the game. The game itself isn't using proper forces calculations to handle many gameplay-related cases, like collisions with walls or even just accelerating or drifts.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:44, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

== Character Stats ==

I watched a twitch live stream of a Tool Assisted Speedrun for Mario Kart Wii. In this specific stream, certain characters were compared for acceleration and mini-turbo. I have edited one of the charts to match the findings on this stream. 
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/344826135

[[User:CobaltYoshi27|CobaltYoshi27]] ([[User talk:CobaltYoshi27|talk]]) 00:28, 5 December 2018 (EST)
:We don't base the data on videos, but on actual data found [http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/DriverParam.bin here], as far as the characters are concerned. Heavy Mii was probably misattributed there before, as it's fixed on those tables as well. Thanks for telling us about the wrong stats!--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:07, 5 December 2018 (EST)

== Character-vehicle discrepancy ==

I've noticed that the character showcased on the vehicles in the vehicle list for this page doesn't match up with the character showcased at the top of the individual vehicle pages. It's a small detail but I really think we should be consistant with which character-vehicle combination we primarily display. Is there any way we can come to an agreement on the characters which should be shown on each vehicle? [[User:Trainer Alex|Trainer Alex]] ([[User talk:Trainer Alex|talk]]) 16:35, 17 January 2019 (EST)

== 2nd Best-selling Mario game ==

Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere on the article that it's the second best selling game in the entire Mario franchise, because that's no small feat. {{unsigned|LukeMo}}
:I need a source for that, but sure, it can be mentioned in the sales section. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:27, April 23, 2020 (EDT)

== ALERT: Majority of character descriptions needs some major adjustments ASAP ==
Relaying what Doc Von Schmeltwick said in his previous edits before mine in terms of the character descriptions when someone put in the tables for this article, but the majority of them in [https://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Kart_Wii#Drivers  this section] need some serious adjustments and look like there were "personal opinions" put into them as well. I tried to fix the ones involving the Mario female characters (and some others), but the rest of them seriously need to be checked into ASAP. Anyone else looking into this? --M. C. - [[User:MeritC|Profile]] | [[User_talk:MeritC|Talk Page]] 08:40, July 11, 2020 (EDT)
:I don't see why we need descriptions at all, honestly. The only other main series Mario Kart game where we have character descriptions at all is Mario Kart DS, the rest of them just have galleries with extra relevant information like their weight class. Either the descriptions on this page (and on MKDS', for that matter) should be replaced with official descriptions if we can find them, or removed entirely for consistency with the rest of the series. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:12, July 11, 2020 (EDT)
:Looks like the "flowery writing" in the respective section has now been neutralized for the most part by myself and some other people, so this "talk" status and the "rewrite" status for the section has been taken off now. --M. C. - [[User:MeritC|Profile]] | [[User_talk:MeritC|Talk Page]] 06:19, July 12, 2020 (EDT)
::I wouldn't say the conversation is quite over yet since I brought up the possibility of removing the bios entirely. I'd like to see what other users have to say about the idea. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:35, July 12, 2020 (EDT)
:::Meh, I'm not really for bios either since we'll get disputes over interpretations of the character like what happened above. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 14:29, October 10, 2020 (EDT)

==Nintendo Wifi==
The article says that you cannot play MKWii online due to the termination of Nintendo Online. This may not be true. By downloading the mod CTGP Revolution, you can play on a custom server called Wiimmfi. We should put ont this artocle that you cannot play online anymore officially, and that there are hacks that would still allow online play.

[[User:CoolSwitch|CoolSwitch]] ([[User talk:CoolSwitch|talk]]) 11:05, August 14, 2020 (EDT)
:We don't cover unofficial material in main articles. As far as Nintendo-endorsed services go, you cannot play this game online. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:18, August 14, 2020 (EDT)

== Add a Reference ==

In the Bowser's Castle Track, part of the Majora's Mask song plays. I don't see that reference. {{unsigned|Daybroken}}
:First, it's not an explicit reference, I never heard it. Second, [[MarioWiki:References|references to other games sections should be Mario only]]. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 14:28, October 10, 2020 (EDT)

== Could anybody add this "Reference to other games" entry? ==

Some of the HUD bubble graphics from Pikmin were reused in this game. For example, the squared bubble [https://www.nintenderos.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/pikmin-2.png here] is used for the "Back" button in many of MKWii's menus. Also, the bubble that indicates the day is used in the Main Menu, covering the Miis face ([https://www.wikihow.com/images_en/thumb/0/03/Unlock-Baby-Luigi-on-Mario-Kart-Wii-Step-1-Version-3.jpg/v4-460px-Unlock-Baby-Luigi-on-Mario-Kart-Wii-Step-1-Version-3.jpg.webp main menu screenshot], it's more apparent when ripping the icon from the files). For comparison: [https://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/46321/ Pikmin sprites]

I can't edit the page myself (''This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions'')--[[User:B squo|B squo]] ([[User talk:B squo|talk]]) 16:02, April 23, 2021 (EDT)
:These are only really coincidences, quite a few games use similar shapes in their menu graphics. It's not something that is entirely based on Pikmin, and the graphics aren't really one-for-one to each other either. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 16:08, April 23, 2021 (EDT)

== Some things that could be added to the "Differences in multiplayer modes" section ==

Here are a few things that I think could be added to the "Differences in multiplayer modes" section:
* Wheelies do not emit sound.
* The graphical effect for miniturbos and also the fire seen when boosting are slightly different (they look a bit simpler)

(The following ones are a bit more specific):

* In Mario Circuit, some 3D flowers are located in different positions, such as the one seen [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/798220173454082068/843646504475557918/3.png here]. In addition, one of the 3D trees (seen to the left a little bit after the finish line) is positioned slightly more to the left (so it's not centered relative to its shadow). All of these are actually leftover from an earlier version of the track, since these objects could be seen in those positions in the E3 2007 trailer of the game.
* Although this is a little bit more trivial, [https://twitter.com/B_squo/status/1410199051417628673 in Mario Circuit, some 2D trees are merged with 3D trees] (though this is hard to see in-game without the use of a free camera). {{unsigned|B squo}}

== Rosalina help. ==

Okay, I'm confused. On the MKWii page, it says that Rosalina's standard unlock criteria is to rank 1 star or higher in all Mirror Cups. OK, simple enough, right? NO! The alternate criteria is to play 4,950 races (too much for me, good thing she is unlocked from the start in MK8DX) OR play 50 races with a SMG save file. 50 is much more manageable, but on this talk page there's an implication that she can be unlocked with just a SMG save file. What's the deal!? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:20, February 27, 2023 (CST)
:It's not automatic. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:47, February 27, 2023 (EST)
::UPDATE! Wikihow makes things even more crazy. Wikihow states the same things that this very wiki says. However, there are additional "ways" to unlock Rosalina. Get at least 1 Star Rank for all Mirror Grand Prix Cups, play 4,950 games, or get at least 1 Star Rank for all 150cc Wii Grand Prix cups and beat 18 Staff Ghosts. HUH!? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 12:47, March 16, 2023 (CST)
:::This is kind of a late response, but is Wikihow a wiki with trusted sorces? Because I think what it says on the page about Rosalina's unlock criteria right now is correct. Having ''five'' ways to unlock Rosalina, as Wikihow says, is kind of a lot. -- {{User:FanOfRosalina2007/sig}} 18:38, December 4, 2023 (EST)

== Small correction regarding Expert Staff Ghost unlock times ==
The unlock times for the expert GCN Waluigi Stadium and N64 Sherbet Land staff ghosts are slightly incorrect. The correct times are 02:26.334 and 02:43.142 respectively.
([https://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Talk:Filesystem/rel/StaticR.rel see the Expert staff ghost unlock times section at the bottom of this page for more information]).
--[[User:B squo|B squo]] ([[User talk:B squo|talk]]) 13:20, July 29, 2023 (EDT)

== The Question ==
Okay, so tell me. Where am I suppose to put this? (Peach, Daisy, and Rosalina wear jumpsuits if riding a bike, as it would be difficult to ride a bike while wearing a dress like when they are driving karts without having their trains (loose, hanging parts forming the backs of their skirts) getting caught in the wheels.) --[[User:SMBros|SMBros]] ([[User talk:SMBros|talk]]) 21:20, May 21, 2024 (EDT)
:I feel it's best to let information speak for itself, especially when Mushroom Kingdom operates on Mario logic where heavier racers are inexplicably faster than light ones. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:05, May 21, 2024 (EDT)

== Alternate box art ==

My own copy of Mario Kart Wii has box art without the Wii Wheel in the background. Has this been documented anywhere? [[Special:Contributions/24.74.178.69|24.74.178.69]] 00:34, May 25, 2024 (EDT)

== Course template ==

{{Talk}}
Personally, I prefer the old revision. It looks more in-line with the rest on the page, it includes the course banner when the other one doesn't, and the staff ghost information is more readable. I'd argue to remove the internal course names since there already is a clear in-game name and that information isn't relevant for the casual reader, but I do like this layout better. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 15:50, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:For the record, I removed the banners because one image of the course seemed sufficient (and only so much space on the table, so something had to give). In my opinion, the biggest problems with the old revision are 1. it's too big and takes up way more space than it needs to, I can't even fit two courses' worth of information on my screen at once, 2. the layout is confusing, tables should read from left to right and use one row per subject (tables are very frequently misused and abused elsewhere on the wiki, but that's beside the point), and 3. a lot of the staff ghost information is obfuscated by images with no accompanying text, which is very bad for accessibility. I'm open to suggestions for how to make these better, and to be honest I'd be totally fine if the consensus is to just revert everything back to how it was before with a simple course listing and separate table of staff ghosts. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:34, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::The main issue with the separate list of staff ghosts was it was hard to keep rows straight while navigating it (and honestly it makes more sense to list them by course than by type, since that becomes an irrelevant comparison due to how different the tracks are). I attempted to use it while trying to finish unlocking everything and ran into repeated trouble where I couldn't keep track of the proper times (since of course I had to look away to see the game running), because the rows blurred together that easily (and with the column names all the way at the top, made it hard to tell which time was which when looking at the bottom). Row blur is already a big issue I've had a lot, for instance clicking the wrong thing on the recent changes list happening a good tenth of the time, but with tables like that it becomes much worse. By putting them firmly into different "squares" for each course, that issue becomes nonexistent, and the proper information can be gleaned at a mere glance. (For what it's worth, I wanted to use the course previews instead of the screenshots, which would have made for shorter squares, but that would have been a massive amount of data to load at once. In the current revision, the screenshots are so small they might as well not be there for how difficult it is to see what they show, and they cause vertical bloat on the other rows.) As for using unlabeled icons, that's a reflection on how the game itself lists time trial records - it uses pictures with no text for that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:43, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::I personally think the tables throughout the page would benefit from retooling. I do not enjoy browsing articles with these types of tables, and I have noticed them pop up more often for other ''Mario Kart'' and ''Mario Sports'' articles.
:::Doc, I have tremendous respect for the amount of work you have personally done on the wiki. However, if I was executing changes on how and what information is presented on the site that others took issue with, especially on pages as important as the game articles, I would hope someone would respect me enough to let me know and provide ways to improve what I wanted to do. I personally find the tables integrated into the ''Mario Sports'' and ''Mario Kart'' articles poor and harm the pages. I will provide specifics:
:::#A single column on any of these tables does not fit on my laptop screen by default. I am required to scroll just to read all the information about a single character, which might be understandable if the table contained a lot of useful information, but, at present, there is minimal information here that could more effectively be condensed together. Instead, it is splayed far apart without apparent cause.
:::#The visual assets on display are redundant, and this makes the tables look messy because the same information is being conveyed in multiple different ways all at once. This is especially true for course tables, like the one on [[Mario Kart: Double Dash!!#Grand Prix|''Mario Kart: Double Dash!!'' courses]], which displays the in-game title asset, the course icon, and the course map. It's all large and distracting. If one were to use in-game assets for things like courses, I would commit to only one of these, and I would scrutinize why adjusting the size of sprites for the sake of the table and conveying information is "inherently a bad thing". Referring to something as such does not make it so. For character and kart tables, I would not include both artwork and sprite icons because they both achieve the same thing: conveying to readers what the character looks like. But even in committing to one, the artwork is distractingly enormous, and without clear benefit.
:::#I learn very little about characters, karts, and courses in these tables, which makes the use of them unclear. Again, as apparent on the ''Double Dash!!'' article, all of those visual assets tell me nothing about what these courses are actually like. Personally, when I read an article, there should be material to actually read. If I was only interested in visual assets and artwork, I would see the game's gallery.
:::Maybe I am the only one who feels this way about these tables. Maybe I am being overly nitpicky. I am sure all of the elements of these tables were put together thoughtfully in a way that makes sense to you, and I know you could justify and explain each of them. However, I think one of the real benefits of using tables is to standardize and present information in an intuitively helpful way, and if the major components of the table are inherently perceived as cumbersome and needless to the point that I just scroll over these tables when viewing these articles, I think it would be a good idea for them to be changed. I personally would recommend the integration of more conventional wikitables. Sometimes simple is better. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:51, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::"As for using unlabeled icons, that's a reflection on how the game itself lists time trial records - it uses pictures with no text for that." Game UI design =/= wiki organization. I've seen this happen elsewhere on the wiki and the sooner we stop trying to mimic it the better. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:01, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::Funnily enough, that's exactly how the wiki's handled the "internal statistics" tables for years now (such as on the MK7 and MK8 pages), I was primarily imitating that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:10, July 3, 2024 (EDT)

::::I think Doc's tables should stay, but on the condition that there's a way to completely adjust how the table looks depending on the screen size, since they appear to be designed with mobile users in mind. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 17:05, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::They are intended to do just that; they have two columns for wider screens and one for thinner screens. It's easier to tell with the character and vehicle tables, since more fit in those. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:09, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Having spoken with several users about this before making the changes I can confirm that the old revision doesn't work well on mobile. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:09, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I find Doc's tables kind of cumbersome to use on mobile devices too :/ - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:11, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::It's not the inherent fault of the wikitables. If someone reports display issues with the article on their device, it means the wikitables could be further optimized until it meets a satisfactory standard on all devices. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 17:17, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::I personally do not really think they look good regardless though. I would rather we return to something like the previous tables mentioned by Arend below, or revised ones built on similar principals. Though again, I could be in the minority. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:22, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::Funny thing, I was heavily inspired by your re-examination of games and their tables. By saying that, you're kinda dissing yourself. :P [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::That's flattering! But I am not infallible and I am open to changing things up when folks bring up issues in good faith. I don't use the boss table I originally designed for ''Super Mario Galaxy'', for example, nor the level table as originally displayed for that article. Other folks conveyed substantive issues they had with those displays and I have taken those into account for future revisions. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:47, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::And I too changed mine to take issues into account, just in a different direction. Nesting tables while removing that pesky padding, I have found, creates a best of both worlds, so I am unclear where the complaint arises aside from "I don't like multiple images," which is more a matter of preference. In my eyes, these table cells should represent a lite version of that subject's article (though only relevant to the particular game's appearance, of course), which is why I think a moderate amount of information (including images and audio) is preferable to having bare bones nothing-but-a-title-and-an-image-too-small-to-see. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:55, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::For context, I do not like game articles like those on Bulbapedia or Zeldapedia, which essentially serve as table of contents for other pages dedicated to specific subjects that appear within their games. That is not the kind of information I am personally looking for when I seek out out an article about a game, and I suspect that is true for others as well. I appreciate having some explanation or context as to what the subject on a table is in relation to the game it is in without needing to jump to other pages. Certainly, details do not have to be as in-depth as the subject's dedicated article, but at least some context is appreciative. That's personally what I look for, at least. I'm open to the idea that I'm alone in that perspective.
:::::::::::::On these tables, I find their structured comparably to those type of table-of-contents-first game articles. Visual assets, often multiple and/or large ones for single subjects, and without much context. Even with the information currently integrated, I still think it looks messy to have multiple displays of a single character, kart, or course when one achieves the same result. I would still scrutinize why that is necessary. Also, forgive me. I didn't mean to imply you are unreceptive to feedback. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:21, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Pretty much it amounts to: Artwork/model/screenshot for visual clarity, I like to be able to see the subject at hand in as much detail as possible without it being like 400x400+px across (I have my limits). As for icons, they're fun, small enough to not get in the way (and load faster if you're on a bad connection like me), generally a consistent size (unlike artwork and models), properly illustrate how the subject looks on selection and/or scoring screens (especially important when the artwork is of low color quality, like the Birthday Girl image in MK7's page), and are also useful in cases like the Miis in MKW and the Villagers in MK8 where there's multiple icons but only one artwork (if even that). And while it wasn't brought up, the music files for courses add character and make it so they're not forced to languish on a gallery page (if images can be elsewhere, so too can media files). But either way, it makes as much sense to include in a dedicated section as listing how many coins an enemy drops, so I don't think it's too much by any stretch. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:28, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Again, I know these were deliberate choices, but I think they ultimately weaken the quality of the information you want to impart. For example, if the Birthday Girl artwork is such poor quality, why use it at all or blow it up to such a large resolution? Why not craft a table that only uses the sprite icons, or the artwork at smaller resolutions? Things to consider. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:06, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Can't see the deets on the icons. Except in newer games like MK8-onward, they tend towards huge icons (large enough that shrinking them is actually justifiable). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:45, July 3, 2024 (EDT)

::@WaluigiTime I take offense to that "misused and abused" comment. The entire point of HTML is to be able to build things with it, having creativity, pragmatism, and coding skill is not a "misuse" or "abuse" of it. It's just thinking outside the box. (I took a graduate-level web applications development class as part of my Master's Degree, I know what I'm doing.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:30, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:::That's what I've taken away from my own conversations with other users who are well-versed in website design, I'm just going off of that. Obviously there's a disconnect somewhere, I'm not knowledgeable enough on that to say for sure where it comes from. Creativity with HTML is obviously valuable, but I assume there's specific standards when it comes to conveying information. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:07, July 4, 2024 (EDT)

I'm personally kinda mixed on Doc's tables, can't really explain why. I guess it's okay-ish in the end, but I don't really see what's exactly wrong with [[Special:Diff/4248305|how it used to look]], either. In either case I think these types of table boxes should've been made on sandbox pages ''first'', and then ask other people for feedback, BEFORE implementing it on the actual pages immediately, because these are all drastic changes that ''need'' to be discussed first. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:13, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:Downward-vertical orientation (most read left-to-right, making it unnecessarily confusing) and being too tiny to tell what anything is (plus not having the map to tell what the layout is), that's what's wrong with it. (And uh, do people really look at others' sandbox pages?) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:19, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
::Well, if you made a discussion about it on a talk page like this one, and provided links to the relevant sandbox pages, I assure you that people ''will'' look at those sandbox pages.<br>Also, I still don't see anything inherently wrong with how the tables used to look, even after your explanation. Maybe it's because it's practically the same scheme as ''[[Mario Kart 8#New courses|Mario Kart 8]]'' and ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe#Courses|Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'', which also look fine to me. I suppose that's just a personal taste thing.<br>Also-also, I'd advice you to test how things look on 4:3 displays (since you seem to be making these specifically for thin/mobile display compatibility), because [[Special:Diff/4266394#Characters|this section on ''Mario Kart Arcade GP 2'']] does not look good at all on my iPad (and that's ''before'' [[Mario Kart Arcade GP 2#Characters|I added the full banners]], too). {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:55, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::AGP2 is admittedly kinda a work in progress, I'd prefer to have images of the vehicles alone without all that other stuff in the screenshots, buuuuuuut that's what we have. That'd make that a lot better looking because it wouldn't be forced to be so horizontal (and I invite you to lose the banners from the table on that page now that they're full sized, the point of the original layout was to make it look like they were coming in from off-panel). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:59, July 3, 2024 (EDT)

For the little bit it's worth, Porple helped me with part of the MKDD character table (namely the Petey/Boo item thing) and he didn't seem to have any complaints with how it was set up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:36, July 3, 2024 (EDT)

I'd like that add that, even with Waluigi Time's changes, Mario Kart Wii is now [[Special:LongPages|the 4th biggest page on the wiki]] thanks to these absolutely massive tables. Mario Kart DS hasn't had any of this stuff removed and it's the now second biggest page! Even if you don't like the original way this info was layed out, there are much better ways to improve on that then to add these needlessly and excessively large tables to the page. {{User:Shy Guy on Wheels/sig}} 20:26, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:I have a very strictly metered connection, and the page's size isn't bothering me. That being said, I know exactly what is causing that, it'll be those bars on the vehicle tables (and character tables in DS), which look cool, but require a lot of code. If there were a template to replace those, the page size would go down immensely. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:59, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:EDIT: I have been replacing them with such a template, and as expected the byte size is deflating significantly. Check it out! They're now at the 18th and 19th largest. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:45, July 3, 2024 (EDT)

I have altered the "retro" course table in a manner I think should fix most of the issues; not only does it reorganize itself, once it's at one column, it is now able to shrink horizontally, including shrinking the images for room. I don't particularly like how that looks personally, but if I need to make sacrifices to make it workable for others, then that's OK by me (and unlike otherwise, it only shrinks as a last resort rather than arbitrarily, which was the problem that made me start making it so they reorganize themselves in the first place). As luck would have it, the images shrunk correspond pretty well to the images that some have called superfluous, so on a small enough screen, it's like they're not there at all. I think it does better at adapting to screen size than WT's attempted replacement, as his is cut off still and my new one is not. Please tell me if that resolves the main issues any of you have or not; if it does, I'll replace the other "wide square" tables (generally all course tables) with this type, and that should resolve everyone's issues. But if it doesn't, please let me know ;) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:27, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:Sorry but this doesn't solve most of the problems for me. I can fit more information on the screen at once than I used to at least (although if you're zoomed in far enough that it has to push the second course down, it looks worse than it did before), but the other problems I mentioned are still there and I don't really like the design in general. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:07, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
::And I don't think that horizontal bars are good for conveying this type of information, and looks bad for that context, while being able to go between two columns and one column depending on screen size looks good on any screen (zooming in will make any table look bad, I recommend going to windowed mode rather than zooming in; windowed mode is more accurate to how mobile devices display it, anyway - and note that it shows that your version gets halfway cut off). Obviously, it's a fundamental difference in taste at this point that can't truly be met in the middle. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:22, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:::FWIW, I wasn't even technically zoomed in when it did that, I normally view the wiki zoomed out and was viewing it at 100%. But yeah, I agree, I don't think there's any way to salvage either of these tables to fully satisfy the people in the other camp. My vote at this point is to just start over and work on improving the old layout, staff ghosts are a separate mode and should be their own section. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem is that too much information is trying to be conveyed by these tables with the course listing and staff ghosts merged. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:33, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
::::Well, to be honest, if the maps don't need to be on ''this'' page, neither do the ghost data. Really, the best solution would probably be to give the [[Ghost (Mario Kart series)]] article a dedicated section for listing staff ghost times (if not split Staff Ghosts from that page altogether). That being said, I think it's worth considering having the course tables look like mine (minus the staff ghost information) and have the staff ghost tables look like yours (minus the maps, and perhaps with icons over the character and vehicle icons for at-a-glance information gleaning), as yours is a lot better for that than the prior ghost tables with it listing by course rather than type, and solves the issue of mine coming off as cluttered for including it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:46, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
::''"(although if you're zoomed in far enough that it has to push the second course down, it looks worse than it did before)"''<br>Uh yeah, what Waluigi Time says here already does that for me ''automatically'' on iPad... again, Doc, please test how these tables look on 4:3 displays.<br>Some of the improvements look worse than previous revisions on iPad in general for some reason: it displays the "improved" cup headers added in [[Special:Diff/4286125#Retro Grand Prix|this revision]] as tiny cramped boxes that are small enough to ''precisely'' fit the cup name and image... I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be wide, like in [[Special:Diff/4286087#Retro Grand Prix|the revision before]]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:06, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:::Actually, I had noticed the box thing (I have indeed been testing with both iPad parameters and smartphone parameters). I felt it looked perfectly fine, as it echoes how the ''Super Mario Kart'' ones look, and I considered having it look that way on the wide one too. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:43, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:::Weirdly enough, it seems moving the ghost data to a new table has removed that particular quirk, so.... all's well that ends well? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:09, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
::::The retro cup headers still look like tiny cramped boxes that won't go wider than the image, to me... {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:15, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
:::::It's definitely fixed now, as I've turned it back into a singular table (but with the squishability included). I've moved the ghost data out and rearranged the remainder of the table to make the best use of space, how does it look now? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:05, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::::OK, I have ensured every one of this type of table I have made during this project can appear with its entire width on the screen on any screen size, and have split the staff ghost information to new tables again with the added icons. (As a bonus, for Wii, the banners appear as the largest icon on phone size, which is neat lol.) At this point, I see no possible benefits of the horizontal-based course listings for anyone these unless they ''really'' like omegasquished images on thinner screens and large amounts of whitespace on wider screens, which is generally considered poor design. (Granted, the other type looks ''mildly OK'' on tablet resolution, though the columns are still so inconsistently sized it drives me crazy. Mine looks good -in my opinion- at PC (two columns, full size), tablet (one column, full size), or phone size (one column, slightly shrunk).) Granted, mine would be thinner if whoever uploaded the course previews hadn't gone with widescreen; the idea is they're tall enough to go alongside the maps at their size. I guess I can shrink the screenshots a bit further, leaving some whitespace above and beneath while making them an easier fit for smaller PC screens, if need be. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:48, July 5, 2024 (EDT)

This isn't course-related but the vehicle section I also think should use improvement. The models themselves are a bit too large but my biggest issue is the bar graphs for the stats, they contrast very poorly with the white background and while they do take inspiration from the in-game aesthetics, those are meant to go with a darker background. I also think we don't need a black border around them, it makes it look too busy. Plus, I think bikes and karts should be grouped together since that is also how the game splits them too, especially according to cc where the vehicle type is restricted. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 11:45, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:I'll admit, I was very unsure of how to order the vehicles, I just decided to go with how our gallery page orders them. Personally, I kinda like them big enough to see the polygons, but obviously that's just my preference and I can shrink them just fine if it's deemed over-the-top (and it probably is, especially for the small vehicles). As for the bars, the outlines are mainly to tell where the "yes" part ends and the "no" part begins if that makes sense, while the outline around the while part is mainly for ensuring consistent size. That all said, I made the bars be a template ({{tem|Bar meter}}), so they can be edited all at once through that if need be (and I was thinking about adding a color parameter for the "yes" part as well). I just wanted to not use the bar graphs seen on the vehicle pages, because personally I find the colors they use kinda ugly. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:31, July 24, 2024 (EDT)

==Decide how to present courses==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|passed|2-1-19-4|revert to original design}}
About a month ago, I started overhauling the course tables after discussions with several community members who were unhappy with their current state. I only completed the new courses before getting pushback, so I left it alone in the hopes that discussion would give a general consensus on what we should go with. As far as I can tell, no consensus has emerged and that discussion has stalled for several weeks. In the meantime, the course listing is split in half between two designs which isn't ideal, especially for a featured article. I think it's about time we just go to a proposal and pick one.

For simplicity, I'm going to refer to these as the "'''[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4307169#Wii_Grand_Prix Nitro option]'''" (my design) and the "'''[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4308233#Retro_Grand_Prix Retro option]'''" (Doc's design) (link updated to reflect changes during proposal) based on the current split. I've also seen several users say that they would prefer [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4277027#Courses reverting back to the original tables from before any changes were made], so this is also an option. I haven't included an option to try a different solution entirely because this is mostly just meant to solve things short-term. The winning design can still be adjusted as necessary and possibly replaced in the future.

This proposal is not necessarily binding on the articles for other Mario Kart games, but they should probably be consistent with each other.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Nitro option===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Secondary option. The Retro tables take up too much space for the amount of information they convey I'm just not a fan of the design in general.
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary option. I get what Doc is going for, but they made everything so big that you can only have one course fit on a single screen (at least on iPad), defeating the whole purpose of the <code>display:inline-block</code> style (alas, their criticism on the old style includes things "being too tiny to tell what anything is", so I guess we'll never see them be shrunk down). Something about the triple-border thing also seems unnecessary and clashing to me... anyway, if the tables and images are too big to fit on a screen and get <code>display:inline-block</code> work as intended, I guess it's better to have something that intentionally lists things vertically without taking up too much space.

===Retro option===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Obviously I'm going to vote for my designs; note I have taken criticisms into account and have changed their functionality immensely since this was last discussed, so they no longer have any trouble on smaller screens and don't shrink the images to an infuriating degree (like the originals were by default) either way. Plus, it's nice having the music and the visuals together, it adds to it more. And while looking on respective pages is valid, this allows for much easier comparison between the different aspects without requiring loading new pages each time - and you cannot convince me that not having the course maps to represent them for a ''racing game'' is "too much." Also... from what I can tell, at least, my tables look better on both wider screens and smaller screens, as it leaves less dead space in the former and doesn't require side-scrolling in the latter, unlike the other designs. If you think that is an "information overload," I invite you to instead look at [https://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Kart_Wii#Vehicles.27_stats this table on the same page] and see if you still think so.

===Revert to the original tables===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} My preferred option. I'd like it if these ran from left-to-right instead of top-to-bottom, but this is a clean way to present all of the courses. We lose out on the map layouts, but I'm not sure how important that is to readers anyway.
#{{User|Meta Knight|Meta}} This is simple which in this case is a good thing. If I want to learn more about a particular course I can just click the link where there would be extra info, yet all the time trial data is in a convenient list below that I can scroll to if I wanted them all in one place.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} In this case, less is more, and the table here looks much more presentable and readable while occupying far less space. Information such as time trials times, map, (why is file name information even necessary, leave that to wiki.tockdom instead where that information can actually be useful), and music should all remain in the course article.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} This worked fine and the attempts to change it have been rather disastrous, so I think it's best to stick with what has worked for ages now.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. We think in this case, simpler is better, and while having the course minimaps is nice, it honestly doesn't feel worth it when it kneecaps the ease of navigation.
#{{User|Arend}} Preferred option. Nothing wrong with it, fits on the screen nicely whether it's on a 16:9 or a 4:3 screen, and it also matches with the course sections on ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'' and ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''.
#{{User|Tails777}} Honestly, the simpler view works better in my opinion. Arguably, it's not as consistent with how other game articles layout the courses, but I dunno, I just feel this looks fine.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I know a lot of work was put into the Retro tables and a lot of technical competency is apparent with them. They are impressive in that sense. I also know work was done to try to address other folks' issues with the Retro tables, and that is legitimately appreciated. However, in terms of relaying information to readers, I really think the original tables still work better, both visually and in display. Retro in particular looks poor on desktop by the size of the assets within it, demanding an unwarranted amount of attention with the information imparted. The outcome of this proposal gives room for users to experiment with what specific pieces of information to display (i.e. course maps, etc.), but in terms of the raw table infrastructure, I think this remains superior to the other options available. One may feel the display of screenshots in the original table is too small for their liking. However, I think it is perfectly fine to adjust the sizes of in-game assets (like course maps) for the purposes of conveying information, and I encourage those who feel otherwise to scrutinize why they personally feel that is intrinsically inappropriate. For example, if the purpose of including something like a course map in a table is to convey the shape of the course to readers, than seeing that asset at its in-game scale in the table directly is probably not necessary and may needlessly stretch the table (as apparent in the Retro tables). (Additionally, because ''Mario Kart Wii'' is a "Featured article", I really don't think it should be left with such widely different tables in every other subsection. Looks messy. If folks wanted to continue experimenting with tables, I recommend trying things out in their sandboxes first and asking other users for feedback before rolling them out like this.)
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Simplicity isn't always bad thing. I'd very much prefer to see things instantly, rather than scroll down.
#{{User|Mario}} More straightforward. "Retro" is just overloaded with information. WT's advantage is that it's better for table of contents, but it leaves behind a lot of empty space.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. I think Doc's arguments on screens are exaggerated because you can still click/tap them if you want to view them in closer detail.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} [[User talk:Koopa con Carne#Regarding courses|Copy/paste of my comment]] (originally about the Mario Kart DS page, but applicable here nonetheless): "I maintain that this design riddles the list with visual and informational clutter, which makes it look less like a useful chart and more like a collection of infoboxes. It looks bad regardless of display size, in addition to filling up the page with tens of thousands of bytes, all in the name of a moderate attempt at centralizing information on each course. [...]<br>I'll agree that overhead maps present essential information about a race course and deserve to be somehow incorporated into the list (it seemed to work well enough when you worked on the [[Golf]] page), though that is not something I can state about music samples, the file names, and the staff ghosts. Readers looking to quickly navigate through a list of courses shouldn't be bombarded with information all at once. The concern that it's inconveniently scattered across many articles is something I'd consider to be unfounded given the solution of a Staff Ghost section (formerly on the same page) and the dedicated media list (just one click away).<br>I also fail to see the inspiration from Nintendo101's work on the articles for Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario 3D World; his approach to course listing is actually very elegant and concise, with a reasonable amount of negative space between content as to make navigation comfortable, and not packed with superfluous stuff like audio files or galaxy icons that are not immediately important to someone looking for a chart of levels. That's not to mention the cautious use of images and color coding employed to illustrate each set of levels."
#{{User|YoYo}} per all
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} These tables do not need all the things, as the 2010 meme goes. I will go into more detail about some design considerations in a comment below, but the main thing here is that tables should not be used for layout and the tables here should just list the courses. I do suggest rotating the table such that there is a row per cup instead of columns.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|Yook Bab-imba}} Per Koopa con Carne. I find this option too basic-looking, and I like the idea of having the map, but the way it's been implemented is not visually appealing. The audio files for each one is too much.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I'll be honest, adding in the music, having headers for different cups, even trying to squeeze the course maps alongside images of the courses — I just don't think the ''game'' article is the place to do all this when users could just click on the link.
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} - Per all.

===Do nothing (no binding decision, allow further options/discussion)===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - This is a fluid project, and I do not believe that table structure is the sort of thing that ''should'' be decided via proposal. Ideas come and go, some good, some bad, some middling but requiring some polish. This should be done through discussion alone, not a rule-binding proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Doc, I think all three of these designs have merits. Still not really sure if this option is necessary since the wording in the proposal suggests that the decision won't be binding anyway, but I agree with the sentiment. (By the way this is a bit off-topic but can we do something about the course list on [[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass]]? It gets cut off on my phone screen.)
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I gave this some thought and hadn't made a conclusive decision, but all of the discussion in the comments makes me think that it is possible for both sides to reach a compromise.
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} Per my vote above, but I would prefer that the listing uses a <nowiki><gallery></nowiki> instead of tables altogether, so I will split my vote.

===Comments===
@Arend Speaking personally here, I prefer more scrolling and consistently sized table cells over microscopic might-as-well-not-be-there-at-all images and inconsistently sized cells that bump their size up and down from text wrapping. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:45, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I mean yeah, they're small, but not ''microscopic''. They're 150px wide, perhaps only a tad bit smaller than wiki thumbnail images by default. Even then, I think that 400px wide is a bit overkill. I mean, images in our infoboxes aren't this wide. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:11, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::To be blunt, it's not about the width, it's about the height (specifically, to be consistent with the maximum height of the maps). If we had images representing the same shots of the course intros that ''weren't'' taken at widescreen display, I'd happily prioritize those and save on a bunch of space. As it is, only those were uploaded. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:23, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::EDIT: I went ahead and removed the screenshots in favor of just using the banners. What do you think? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:42, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::I suppose that looks a bit better? I'm not sure how I feel about the course maps looking ''enormous'' compared to the course banners, but at least more than one course can fit on my iPad screen. I think I still prefer my design though. (Side note: are the internal file names for these courses necessary, too?) {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:11, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::I suppose they're not necessary, but I'm not sure what other context they can be put in where they can be compared to each other within the same list on the same page. Because easy comparison's the entire reason I added them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:14, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I personally really like the idea of including the course maps. That is a good idea, and having the option to compare them is also great. But I don't think they need to be displayed at their in-game resolution. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:17, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Technically, there is no "in-game resolution" for these as they are postprocessed models. The way I have them is at a consistent screen size, but the actual file dimensions are inconsistent - making resizing them consistently a hassle. I'll try, though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:20, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::::EDIT: The dark deed you have requested is done. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:34, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I appreciate your willingness to modify your tables based on user feedback.
:::::::I whipped up a little [[User:Nintendo101/community garden|table example myself]], and I am curious to know what you (and others) think of it. It does not include music, banners, or in-file names for courses, but it has breathing room for other information if one choses to include it. It retains screenshots and course maps. Colors are not finalized or anything like that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:44, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::No music? <s>You describe a world I do not wish to live in.</s> I think audio cues are just as important as visual ones, and shouldn't just be left to languish on the media list pages. That's why I put them on these when they're available. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:48, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::They aren't languishing on the media lists, they're in the infoboxes on each course page. The only information from these tables not on the individual course pages is the internal names, which absolutely ought to be added (some other courses in the series have them already, e.g. [[Squeaky Clean Sprint]]). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:36, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::Precisely where you can only compare them with tracks from other games, rather than ones from the same game - and remember, I said they're just as important as visual cues, so they should get equal wait. I fail to see how putting them here is a detriment in ''any'' way; an added small black rectangle is ''not'' going to cause an "information overload" to anyone - particularly when this very page already has that insane "internal statistics" table. I get that most people aren't used to it, but it doesn't harm anything, but adds another layer of depth and understanding - I can't see any reason to complain about it other than being uneasy about new ideas - having a more "old-fashioned" mindset, so to speak. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:09, July 23, 2024 (EDT) 
:::::::::::To clarify, I'm not strongly for or against any option, just wanted to point out that your implication that the media lists are the only other place with the music is incorrect. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:29, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::::To be fair, I did relent on including the course maps on my battle map table design, and I think it made the thing look better in general. But I shrunk mine down to the height of the screenshots, since I placed the shot and the map horizontally. Waluigi Time did the same thing with his Nitro course tables. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:25, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::::To me, it's about consistency for each image type, not for each row, as that often leads to inconsistent rows; note how the map columns in WT's tables are all over the place in width. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:50, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I feel like this proposal is more so about "table structure" and less about what specific information is covered in them. While I do not necessarily think music needs to be included in the table I whipped up, I can see it being included underneath the description rows. (Though I more strongly agree with Ray Trace that internal file names should not be in the tables for main game articles. But again, I view that as tangential to table structure.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:20, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I care less about the shape and more about the content. It needs ''either'' the screenshot or the banner, plus the map, plus the music. Plus the title, of course. <small>To be frank, anything that gives an excuse to put the Wii Rainbow Road theme on more pages is enough justification in and of itself.</small> [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:26, July 23, 2024 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time rather than adopt strict adherences to what is covered in the tables, could one say, build off of the original table's structure if they wanted to incorporate other bits of information they thought was potentially useful? I do prefer them over the other two, but I do think users should feel like they have some freedom to at least experiment with how information is to be displayed and what to include.

Also, would this proposal have ramifications for the character and kart tables on the page, which are structed similarly to the Retro option? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:59, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I don't have any issue with making further changes, this is more about settling on a basic design than anything. I don't really like the character/kart tables either, but those are out of the scope of this proposal. They might warrant future discussion. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:25, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::I dislike them for the same reasons as I do for the course setup. It's a lot of table, image and space usage doesn't really justify the kind of information being shown. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:34, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::Problem with the other way is having tall columns full of numbers for each attribute means which column is which gets lost the lower down you go. And the sides get cut off. This way, they don't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:22, July 23, 2024 (EDT)

[[Mario Kart Wii#Battle stages|I made a bit of an experiment of my own, too, this time w/ the battle stages]]. It makes better use of the <code>display:inline-block</code> style by removing some of the unneeded code, shrinking the images a bit and getting rid of the more superficial stuff, so it can fit all courses of a cup on widescreen. Granted, only 4 of each course can fit on a 4:3 display, so when it comes to battle courses, it still looks a bit weird on iPad, but I prefer this over Doc's take. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:11, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I still don't like hypershrunk screenshots and lack of maps. Contrast with the mildly similar course tables I made for ''[[Super Mario Kart]]'', which are small only due to the small resolution of the original screenshots and ''do'' contain the entire layout. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:14, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::I don't feel like the screenshots are """hypershrunk""", these are just a tad bigger than how an image is typically embedded on an article, and I feel they're just right in this case. Wonder what other users think of it, though. Anyway, I decided to throw in the minimaps and make them evenly sized with the screenshots. I made sure so five courses can still fit on widescreen, <s>but now 3 fit on a 4:3 iPad screen (making that look better on there for the battle maps, but probably not so much for the race courses... sizes might need to increase for those then, but the battle courses look fine for me).</s> apparently I was mistaken, 2 courses can fit on a 4:3 iPad screen now, so that renders the issue of the race courses probably not looking good on iPad moot. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:11, July 23, 2024 (EDT)

<big>'''RETRO OPTION'S EFFECT IS ALTERED.'''</big> It now looks like [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4308233#Retro_Grand_Prix this]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:42, July 23, 2024 (EDT)

Can we not have internal names? Thanks. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:14, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:Well I want them listed somewhere for easy comparison with each other, but ''I guess'' in the most long-suffering inflection ever that I could put that also in a separate list, as with the time trial stuff. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:26, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I don't agree with or really understand the idea they shouldn't be on the wiki at all ([[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Add an Internal Name syntax to Template:Foreign names|there was a whole proposal about how to make note of them]]), but yeah I agree that it doesn't really make sense putting them on tables on the game's page rather than on the course's own pages, since although it's valid information, it's pretty trivial and not even shown to the player. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:29, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::Is there any particular reasons courses get to have file names listed underneath them while every other element (items, characters, vehicles, course objects, etc.) don't? It's unnecessary information for a game article, this kind of thing is best for individual articles and I already think it slightly breaches coverage that is best left better for wikis specialized in this, explicitly [https://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Main_Page Custom Mario Kart] wiki. Listing character filenames would be also very terrible because there is no "BbLuigi.szs" (it might be in Driver.szs, been a while since I modded Mario Kart Wii), every single character technically is merged with their vehicle so you get "sa_bike-blg.szs" which means Baby Luigi on a Bullet Bike (and there is -2 and -3 variants of them which are lod model files should we include those too?). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:31, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::Well, the blunt reason is they're the ones I could get from noclip.website. As for putting them exclusively on their own pages, that removes the ability to compare, and map models tend to be more... consistent in that regard anyway. Also, the "internal statistics" pages for MK7 and MK8 ''do'' list the internal names for their items. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:46, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
::::That's where the filenames *should* go, not in the game articles themselves. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 01:11, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::-shrug- Well, MKW doesn't have a sub article like that, so I do what I can. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:20, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::Why do filenames need to be "compared" so badly anyway, to the point that having them on the individual pages isn't enough? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:52, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Because otherwise, for instance, Daisy Circuit being "Senior Course" doesn't make any sense until you realize that it's meant to be the counterpart to Luigi Circuit being the "Beginner Course." I had to scratch my head for a few minutes on that one when I first saw it on noclip, but it makes more sense when they're shown together. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:41, July 24, 2024 (EDT)

Y'all may wonder why I'm taking this so personally. As it happens, web design is my primary occupational skill. By saying that a small, inconsistently celled, poorly ordered table that was probably made in 5 minutes and conveys very little information is better than the nested table I spent hours ensuring would look perfect on any screen size is, to be blunt, a rather harsh insult to the main thing I'm good at, so naturally I'm not going to take very kindly to it. Nintendo101, imagine if someone took issue with in-depth taxonomy being used for categories and sought to restrict it to the level of what a 5-year-old's picture book on animals would convey. That's about as insulting as this is, if not slightly less (and I'm a taxonomy nut too, so I can relate through that, even if I didn't pursue biology at an occupational level due to my squeamishness). Trace, imagine if someone decided to get rid of all the model renders from the site because screenshots are more in-game accurate - and in the meantime, start calling them "sprites" because "it doesn't matter." Hell, LGM, imagine if someone launched a campaign to have all ''Mario Party'' images feature Wario ''winning'', either in apathy or direct antipathy towards the beloved running gag you've built up these past several years. And I take issue with the "simplicity" argument: we are a wiki, it is not our job to "simplify" things, it's our job to document and convey them. If you want things "simplified," there's a million patronizing-voiced YouTubers who can do that much better. As it is, you're just making me feel unwanted :\ [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:48, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I'm not particularly fond of calling tables I see here "made in 5 minutes" ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Superstar_Baseball&diff=802980&oldid=802226 for example, I've worked on Mario Superstars Baseball's character table a verrrryyy long time ago], prior to your current revamps, let me tell straight that no way these were hastily done in 5 minutes and that a lot of thought was indeed put into them). None of us here are saying that you didn't put any effort, nor did we insinuate that you've purposely done design decisions that we don't agree with. Honestly, if there was a compelling argument that models are bad because screenshots are better and we should delete all models on the wiki, and that said proposal passes, then yeah sure I'd be peeved at first but eventually, I just realize it's really not worth getting fussy about. I've had plenty of proposals that didn't go the way I want, and it is frustrating to get people who feel like they don't agree with you or read your points, but ultimately, none of this is a personal attack, it's a disagreement. I also strongly disagree with your assertion that we're simplifying things just for the sake of it and it...kinda is our job to simplify: we're simplifying things for the sake of accessibility or readability, you know, function. There's a reason we limit color usage in tables or we make tables occupy a reasonable amount of space without requiring readers to scroll through text too much, and if simplifying things makes it better for the browsing experience, then so be it, but like all things, it's all case-by-case. I prefer tables over plain bullets (like in the Mario Superstar Baseball article that's why I revamped it like that and it stayed that way for quite some time) but there is such thing as too much formatting and clutter which makes things much tougher for readers to navigate. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 01:06, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::I'm aware it's not a personal attack, and I too have had many proposals that have gone counter to what I want, but this particular case is so entrenched with what it is I ''do'', and indeed [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4285578 started with an ''actual'' verbal attack against me], that I cannot help but be defensive on it. All that said, I've done my darndest to appease everyone, and I still don't know what the problem is, particularly why one that doesn't even show the course maps (a paramount representation for '''race tracks''') would be more popular - and I see no "compelling argument" for that. The current design I have is just as simple, but not as ''cryptic'' as the "how it was before" one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:20, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::I'm open to ideas of better organization, I'm always looking for improvements to presentation ([[Mario Sports Superstars]] can use one, it's a bit of a mess lol), but as of currently, in my opinion, there's too many images and they're too big (it's somewhat of a headache to browse over them). I do appreciate the attempts to give them a little bit more flair than prior ones (when it comes to tables like these, I'm just a bit more old fashioned because that's what I'm used to) ([[Mario Kart Arcade GP 2]] before the revamp I actually liked but now, I think I've outgrown how and colorful tacky it used to look lol). I don't agree with adding mini maps to the course overview mostly because most Mario Kart games don't do that and just show an overview of the course, so I personally don't deem it as necessary as the track overview). I do agree that Koopa Con Carne should be a lot less abrasive undoing your edits however, because ultimately, we're not here to shit on each other but to improve browsing experience for users. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 01:26, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::I mean, the maps ultimately tell more about the course than a screenshot of any size (unless it was like {{file link|MKDD MushroomCity.png|this screenshot}}, but that's obviously not a native angle). And while they don't represent on the course select screen, they are constantly on the screen during the race itself. I'd just as soon prioritize the maps over the screenshots, but I'd prefer both were there in some capacity. And if Swoop's article can get a soundbyte of a parrot chirping embedded in its history section, then these items can get their music tracks on here for the trifecta of representation: a visual, a layout, and an audio. Nothing left out, not taking up much space (more space is taken up by the sheer size of the cup icons now lol), and not shrunk into oblivion when on a smaller screen - the entire reason I made these "automatically sorting" tables is because I was tired of things shrinking into near-nonexistence when the screen was small, and especially the ones many character tables had where, due to the images' inconsistent base sizes, they tended to shrink in weird inconsistent ways leaving some tiny and others normal. I merely wanted that weird side effect to stop. Buuuuut I'm rambling now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:40, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::@Ray Trace, criticizing someone's work is "shitting on it" now? All I did was calling Doc's design "bad" and "extremely hectic and crammed", which most people in this proposal, ''yourself included'', are in agreement with. I didn't make fun of it, I didn't put it in BJAODN, and I didn't insult the person who developed it. (If Doc took that as a "verbal attack against her", that's on her.) You can't accuse me of bad faith. You have lobbed similar criticisms to other users' works in the past and you're frankly no stranger to using much nastier language. Being blunt is not being discourteous. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:21, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I don't know if the word-or-its-counterpart is softer in Romanian, but calling something "bad, simple as" is about as insulting as you can get (possibly even worse than profanity) - and it tells me ''nothing'' I could do to improve it, so it's not a "legitimate criticism." That should be obvious - and again, as my primary occupational skill, an insult like that towards it is also an insult towards me, because that's what I ''do''. (Also, most people really aren't acknowledging the "[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4308233#Retro_Grand_Prix current]" iteration, where I've actually taken people's ''actual, constructive'' criticisms into account to make everyone happy, but I guess it's pointless if people aren't gonna check and offer any further critique...) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:48, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::There's nothing insulting in calling someone's work "bad". The author is a separate entity from their own creation, which, if deemed of low quality, grants an invitation to the author to learn and grow. Sometimes the criticism is in bad faith, or indeed seeps into ad hominems, but I'm doubting the likelihood of that being the case here when 13 people so far have spoken out against these changes, quite civilly at that. Your continuous appeal to emotion has no place here; frankly nobody cares how passionate you are about something if you're unwilling to actually listen to the feedback you're given. Your current iteration, whether acknowledged or not, still bloats the page significantly, harming the ease of navigation and loading up the storage just so you could have everything and the kitchen sink in one restricted spot.<br>I'd also like if people stopped assuming I'm applying meanings and connotations from my native language into English. I'm pretty sure I write in this language at a comfortably native-like level, and the qualifier I gave to your work is, in fact, appropriate. If you're really curious how the word for "bad", as in "low quality", translates into Romanian, [[wiktionary:prost#Romanian|it's the same word as the one for "stupid"]]--and believe me when I say that not once did I endeavor to attack your intelligence in my criticism. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 10:27, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::I'm not trying to "appeal" to emotion, I'm stating how I feel so there's no ambiguity as to why I feel offended by this, even if it's misplaced. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:00, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Koopa con Carne, if someone takes offense to your use of language, regardless if you mean it or not, then yes, your language is way too direct and abrasive, and people will find your blunt wording offensive; people will react to criticism differently. Maybe the usage of the word "bad" you think isn't offensive, but your edit summary calling out Doc von Schmeltwick directly telling her to "stop being so protective of your edits, you don't own the material shown here" absolutely is, there is no way to go around what your intent of writing is. Also, this isn't about me and my usage of language in the past, regardless of how direct I was, it's about your behavior. I also strongly disagree that there is "nothing insulting in calling someone's work bad" or telling someone that "nobody cares how passionate you are", those are, by definition an ad hominen, and yes, it is an insult on someone personally, even if it purely directed at the work itself and not the author, there isn't a total disconnect from someone's work. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 11:27, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::I would like to point out how Nintendo101 also is supporting moving back to the original, but their comments have been nothing but supportive of experimentation, and they have given constructive ideas on what I should do with my designs to make them work better (shrinking the maps and all that). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:43, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::@Ray Trace, I take it you changed your stance on [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/38172/#post-1916073 this], then?<br>"There's no need to internalize criticisms of your writing; we aren't attacking anyone personally when we say that the writing is sub-standard."<br>If you no longer associate with that statement, and you now truly believe that calling someone's work "poor" or "bad" is offensive and a personal attack, then what do you have to say regarding this point in [[MarioWiki:Courtesy]]:<br>"There is no need to be nasty when you undo an edit or clean up someone else's work. For example, if you're fixing someone's bad grammar, just say "fixing grammar" or "'''<u>bad</u> grammar'''""<br>What about the time I, myself, got overprotective over my own edits and a bureaucrat told me [[User_talk:Koopa_con_Carne/Archive_2#Warning|the following]]:<br>"As a final note, remember that this is a ''wiki''. <u>Anyone</u> can come along and modify what you have written. Any work you submit here is [[MarioWiki:General disclaimer|not owned by you]], and you cannot become pretentious or hostile towards users who ''validly'' change something."<br>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this exactly how Doc has conducted herself so far with the edits to these pages? I only reverted her edits twice, once as I was expressing my distaste for the new table design, and another time when she [[Special:Diff/4285573|nonchalantly undid Waluigi Time's own work]], enforcing her own vision, which is discourteous. For the record, the reason I'm dredging up those messages from years ago is to show ''exactly'' the kind of philosophy I employed to develop myself as an editor of this wiki; and whilst I still don't agree with the way my contributions were sometimes derided, I was very much going down a wrong path, which these reminders helped correct. To find that you are suddenly backpedaling on these notions is disconcerting and I'm seriously starting to call into question the good faith of the people I'm talking with here. Try to be consistent. I take the liberty of reciprocating a person's criticisms if they, themselves, act inconsistently. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:18, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::The difference is when I initially reverted, I didn't call WT's work "bad," I apologized and explained what issues I saw in it (and if he had done the whole thing instead of just one section, I wouldn't have the kneejerk response; I prefer mainspace edits avoid "construction" time unless it's a truly herculean effort to change, and more of the course table edits I've made have been all in one go - often across multiple days of being in the editing mode before submitting). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:22, July 24, 2024 (EDT)

By the way, is the "no binding decision" option that Doc added necessary? The proposal already suggests that it's not trying to be binding ("the winning design can still be adjusted as necessary and possibly replaced in the future"). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:12, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:I'm not entirely sure, proposal rules do require a status quo option unless the status quo violates policy. In this case, doing nothing would leave a featured article in a very messy state indefinitely until someone makes a new design that we can agree on, which doesn't exactly seem supported by policy. A big part of this proposal is cleaning up the mess, whether we want to come up with a different solution down the road is a mostly separate issue. (That being said, I do like the layout Nintendo101 came up with much better as far as including more information goes.) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:02, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::It's less "leave it how it is" and more "don't make a binding decision that could age poorly and would require another proposal to change." As it previously was, all three were that kind of option, and, well - to quote Obi-Wan - ''only a Sith deals in absolutes'' <s>as hilariously hypocritical that quote is</s>. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:19, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::What if we reverted to the original tables just to keep the display consistent on a featured article, and then worked on new ones together in a sandbox until we got to something we all liked? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:45, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::That could work! [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:41, July 24, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer I might get to that monstrosity of a track collection at some point depending on how this goes, though I'll probably stay far away from Tour's, I'm not brave enough to try anything with a list of that sheer size yet. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:14, July 24, 2024 (EDT)

Doc von Schmeltwick: if it means anything, if I have suggestions for ideas and whatnot, I'll suggest them, so as long as my part time work schedule allows for it. For instance, I bring up that rawsize gallery proposal.[https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Expand_use_of_.22rawsize.22_gallery_class] It wasn't going anywhere at the time, and I opposed it, but I dropped a comment asking about additional parameters that would address voter concerns, which is including size parameters. You did this and I changed my vote to support. However, I waited a bit to see if you're going to amend the proposal to call attention to the new parameters, but at the time, I waited a while. And then I finally noticed the deadline was the next day, and there were more oppposes than supports, which I then tried to call attention to the new parameters you and Steve made, thru our Discord server and a comment in the proposal and people did change their votes in time. I was really concerned the proposal was going to fail despite the provisions being updated; it would be very disappointing for you despite what you've tried to do, so I tried my best to call back to it before deadline. Now, the proposal passed and I thought you must've been relieved and quite satisfied people changed votes.

So anyway, my criticisms here are that, just criticisms. I really didn't expect them to upset you, as I was under impression you were already aware that I've criticized your tables in the [[Talk:Mario Strikers Charged]] page. That wasn't my intent, so I'm sorry for that. To explain my problems: there are several bedrock issues I have. First, what is wrong with the tables and why do they need fixing? I didn't quite understand why the original tables were so bad. Second, is table really the ideal solution for organizing the information? From all the coding and fretting over displays and how images look, I was left wondering if inline formatting is so fundamentally flawed and limited that it simply isn't the appropriate task to carry this out. Additionally, from my understanding, tables is not recommended for layout, and Wikipedia recommends using css classes due to their ability to adapt to different sorts of displays.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Tables#Appropriate_use] I understand we are not Wikipedia, but MarioWiki doesn't have a comprehensive guide for using CSS on MediaWiki projects to their fullest potential, so I have to rely on what older wikis with a much bigger userbase (and a web design expert being more likely to have written the guidelines or gave suggestions for 'em) have to say. I also understand that the tables you've worked on are not the only offenders in the wiki, so this advice should extend to general practices on the wiki. However I cannot articulate much more what "CSS class" entails in. You should know better since you did say you have experience in this. All my CSS experience was really just editing the interface of the wiki as well as making custom layouts in Acmlmboard-style forums. So, you'll have to do a little more exploring into what that does, maybe work out something with Steve here, experiment with CSS and stuff, I'm sure you might find a cool thing or two. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:08, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:Ultimately, my problems with the original come down to two things: the lack of information coming off as less "simple" and more "cryptic," and there being a lot of wasted space on wider screens (as well as the cups being sorted by column, which bothers me a lot more than it probably should - I expect left-to-right, not top-to-bottom). Difficulty in finding the proper parameter led to using nested tables, while learning how it looked on smaller screens is what gave me the idea for the inline-block. If screen sizes were more consistent, this of course wouldn't be a problem, but such is the world we live in. The inline-block is the only way to make it so it doesn't look awkward on at least one of the screen types, provided enough work goes into it. On that subject, how I handled the character and vehicle tables: in the horizontal-based previous versions, if you were looking at an item near the bottom of the list, you can no longer tell which column represents what, since it's far up offscreen, and the numbers tend to blur together anyway. This is also why I've taken to using bar meters and color-coded star meters, it makes it clear what is numerically represented without having to focus in a sea of tiny black numbers - if information can be gleaned to someone with unfocused eyes, then as far as I'm concerned it's become more accessible. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:23, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah, not hugely a fan of cups being sorted by column but I understand the possible justification: courses are ordered from top-down in the game. By the way the cup display in Vector 2022 (which I use; it's a narrow desktop display similar to Wikipedia's current narrow design) is uneven, but that's probably able to be fixed. As for lack of information, the article is big enough already and I feel the bgm is the most dispensable kind of information to have. You brought up the Swoop's cockatiel clip, but it's not common practice in the wiki overall, and it was a leftover part of a trivia point being incorporated (the audio clip supports a trivia point in the end; the course bgm just seems more of bonus information). This is the same case for filename, which I think belongs more in the main article than Mario Kart Wii (and try to imagine this being extended to other articles; should Mario's information in [[Super Mario Odyssey]] include his szs file? Should Sand Kingdom also have its szs file accompanying its name?). I could see a case of the file instead being linked in the body text rather than be a thumbnail clip. Finally, those stat bars. They're not easy to read. It may owe to just how the coding is designed to be, but it's really thin and small (bordered by a nesting table) and doesn't contrast well with the wiki's interface. As for nesting tables? I believe these are to be used very sparingly (doesn't translate to screen reading very well?) and I don't think this is an instance where they should be used. The discussion is getting lengthy and while I know I should try to address them all, I just want to focus on a couple of things before it turns into a gish gallop sort of thing. {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:41, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::I did move the filenames to the course pages earlier today, actually. I don't think that the BGM tracks can hurt anything by being present; visually, they're a small thin black rectangle, and don't even load the .oga unless clicked on directly. And, to be frank, I ''really like'' having them there, having relevant music available is a treat IMO. In regards to the nested tables, I really don't see where the issue is coming from; the most awkward look the current version of my course tables can have is three-across, which IMO still looks preferable to the previous one if only because if internal layout (and I can fix that anyway by giving it a clear separator - so it automatically shrinks from four across to two across, that's just getting a little bit too recursive IMO. I just like the ability for it to fill horizontally no matter the screen size without, say, shrinking Waluigi to near-nothing while Donkey Kong gets bloated up. Because before I started implementing the nesting, that happened. A lot. Plus, it makes it easier to tell which number goes to which stat/character when editing, because without that, they tend to blur together. As for the bar meters, I find them more useful than numbers alone, especially in cases where the maximum possible values differ; any issues with their formatting can be fixed easily, I created a template specifically for it. I'll admit, the tight white-and-black outline is definitely a personal appeal of mind (resembling stat bars and health meters in many games), though it's also useful in cases where the background isn't already solid white - which is a case I prefer to deal with ahead of time rather than later. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:54, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::The biggest reason I'm opposed to relevant music there is mostly because, while I do agree it's important information, I think it's unnecessary in a game article, where I think the information becomes relatively extraneous. I'll argue here that sound effects such as voices are around as important, but that doesn't mean we should integrate format character select voice clips for the character gallery. Plus, I'd apply this consistency to every other game article on the wiki and frankly having music underneath every time we mention a location or describe it gets very cumbersome. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:48, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::::The main difference between this and every other game is that the ''Mario Kart'' games generally have one theme (all unique with occasional exceptions for similar courses) per location (with occasional variations, like with Koopa Cape), while levels in platforming games can have many different music tracks, most non-unique - for instance, SMB having fairly consistent music for locales and SMG music shifting often mid-mission. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:42, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Yes, but also take account into RPGs, Mario Party, Mario Sports games, and other Mario spinoffs as well. I just think having consistent application of it across game articles would be very messy. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:40, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::::I agree that music is probably better served off of the main game articles. I honestly think the media lists associated with game articles have potential to be a lot more robust than they currently are, as thorough articles about game music that folks would enjoy reading. But that is an idea to explore some other time. Ultimately, I think the main articles are primarily meant to be read, so text and visual information is more important.
::::::But regardless, just to get a sense of how audio files ''could'' be included in tables without it taking up too much real estate on the article, I have incorporated them '''[[User:Nintendo101/community garden|here]] in a collaborative sandbox that anyone and everyone is welcomed to edit'''. I put this together in response to Doc's openness to working on tables as a group. While I do think the original tables on the article are serviceable, I understand if others feel like they could put together something different, and I think it's nice to have a space where folks could experiment with peers. The infrastructure of the table in this sandbox was something I put together, but others can swap that out with something else if they feel they are better. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:25, July 25, 2024 (EDT)

Some design considerations for tables and lists and the combination thereof that I think are important, and which are ''very'' commonly violated on this wiki, including in the tables concerned in this proposal:

*Tables should be used for tabular data. Tables should not be used for layout.
*Nesting tables is a no-go. This usually implies that they're used for layout, for which I refer to the preceding point.
*Vertical scrolling for a table on smaller screens is not so bad if said table is displaying tabular data. While it is true that small screens present issues for layout when layout is the target, for data tables this is fine and not something worth "solving". The internal kart statistics elsewhere on this article are an example of such.
*If layout is a goal, then tables are not the solution and one should look into semantically laying out the right HTML and sprinkle the right CSS over it. This, I'm aware, may scare people who are not proficient in coding beyond the simplified layer wiki coding provides, which is why at that point templates developed by people who are proficient in this matter can be interesting, which are more usable by the average editor. This is not a thing I have seen a lot on the wiki before though.
**There are a few templates around which do abstract complex coding away as such, but those I've seen ironically use tables for such layout.

Up for taste:

*I don't think music and internal names are worth adding to the course overviews. Maps... maybe, but I would prefer a screenshot or render. For more information I will visit the wiki page about the course I'm interested in.
*For visualising numbers beyond a plain number, it is possible to use simple styling to colour text or background of cells. In the case of bars such as used in the vehicle stats (which, that table should be entirely revamped to be tabular anyway as per the above), that bar can be stylistically added to the background, for example.

In regards to "adjustments to the winning design" and the option I voted, to expand on my suggestion there: Imagine, if you will, you read the table aloud as if you are reading a book. You will hear: "Mushroom Cup. Flower Cup. Star Cup. Special Cup. Luigi Circuit. Mario Circuit. Daisy Circuit. Dry Dry Ruins. Moo Moo Meadows." et cetera. This is confusing!<br>
The argument that the game lists them this way is not valid, that would turn this into a table-for-layout, which is not good.

Other tables on this article showcase much the same issues as the course ones, but I'll leave those out of this for now as they are outside the scope of this proposal and I much would like to go to bed now. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 00:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

:"Table-for-layout" is ''not'' bad, though, it's a basic function of wikitext - and while yes, HTML would work for that, the native wikitext makes more sense to use for consistency with how other structures are built. I don't know why you're against it, but it being "bad" is wholly subjective. Personally, I dislike galleries being used that way; by default, the images tend to be much too small and the items have a ridiculous amount of padding with no barrier around the textual portion. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:47, July 26, 2024 (EDT)

::Wiki formatting is just an abstraction layer over HTML to make it easier to use, this does not affect the function and purpose of tables and other markup. I'll cite a few sources:
::*[https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html Tabular data (HTML Standard)]
::**"The table element represents data with more than one dimension, in the form of a table."
::**"Tables must not be used as layout aids. Historically, some web authors have misused tables in HTML as a way to control their page layout. This usage is non-conforming, because tools attempting to extract tabular data from such documents would obtain very confusing results. In particular, users of accessibility tools like screen readers are likely to find it very difficult to navigate pages with tables used for layout."
::*[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/table <nowiki><table></nowiki>: The Table element (MDN Web Docs)]
::**"The <nowiki><table></nowiki> HTML element represents tabular data—that is, information presented in a two-dimensional table comprised of rows and columns of cells containing data."
::*[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/HTML/Tables/Basics HTML table basics (MDN Web Docs)]
::**"A table is a structured set of data made up of rows and columns (tabular data). A table allows you to quickly and easily look up values that indicate some kind of connection between different types of data, for example a person and their age, or a day of the week, or the timetable for a local swimming pool."
::**"HTML tables should be used for tabular data — this is what they are designed for. Unfortunately, a lot of people used to use HTML tables to lay out web pages, e.g. one row to contain the header, one row to contain the content columns, one row to contain the footer, etc. [...] This was commonly used because CSS support across browsers used to be terrible; table layouts are much less common nowadays, but you might still see them in some corners of the web." (this section continues [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/HTML/Tables/Basics#when_should_you_not_use_html_tables with more points])
::Use of galleries is indeed subjective, however, for the issues you raise, there are a few display modes for galleries as listed in [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images#mode_parameter the MediaWiki docs]. Especially <code>mode="packed"</code> is of interest in course galleries, and attributes such as <code>widths</code> and <code>heights</code> exist to make images larger. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 16:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Dedicated layout elements in HTML tend to be a bit more squirrelly to use than table elements (and I did attempt using divs at first, but the result was so poor it didn't make it past the edit preview phase). Taking advantage of easy-to-use elements in creative ways is ''not'' bad, in spite of what their original purpose was. And yeah, I know about those gallery tags, and use them often on gallery pages; they still don't look as good as tables do on mainspace pages, and I prefer to keep gallery elements exclusive to dedicated gallery sections and pages whenever possible. A page interrupted by a table is normal; a page interrupted by a gallery just looks ''off''. And yes, that too is subjective, but I'm not saying it should be disallowed completely. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:49, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
::::I'm going to have to question your claim that "web design is my primary occupational skill". Do you know CSS or not? To be frank and honest, your replies to LTQ's comment is not lending credence to your claims. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:20, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Yes, I do (and have many examples on the very computer I am using made in Visual Studio; if you need proof, I can DM you a github link), but some CSS functions do not work within HTML tags (even within the 'style="..."' portions, which if you look at my edits you will see I use extensively), and for wiki pages, the only way to use these remaining ones are through pages such as "[wikiname].common.css," which are rather outside the scope of what a non-sysop should be editing. I can't just put a <nowiki><style> or <script></nowiki> section on an ordinary wiki page, it won't do anything. Granted, .CSS pages can be made for template-specific ones, but I generally prefer to save making a new template for extreme cases as I do not like their overuse since they become too rigid in how they format things (and become highly difficult to preview changes on when there are multiple together). Now, I have had Porple's help in implementing certain CSS functions that require that (such as the rotating item icon for Petey and King Boo on the Double Dash page), but in general I prefer to limit myself to what tools can be done without deep changes to the wiki's functionality. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:32, July 27, 2024 (EDT)

I've noticed people bringing up "consistency with MK7 and MK8 pages" as a reason to revert, which I find rather baffling - I've been doing these in release order, so I ''hadn't gotten to them yet''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:16, July 26, 2024 (EDT)
:First, I for the life of me cannot find who even ''mentioned'' Mario Kart 7 in this conversation at all but you, and definitely not in regards of consistency (in fact, my vote is the only one which mentions the old tables match that of MK8 and MK8D). Second, you doing these in release order and thus having applied this style on more games than not, doesn't necessarily mean the argument is invalid. The point is that ''most people liked the old style better'', and your style had been applied ''only by yourself'' without much discussion, if any. If people don't like the new style only you have a (large) hand in, it doesn't exactly matter whether your style is the more consistent one. That's like if I alone were redesigning the tables in all the ''Mario Party'' games by release order, and by the time I got to ''Mario Party 10'', someone told me that they liked the old tables better and likened the old style to those in ''Mario Party Superstars'', and I'd say "Yeah but ''my'' tables are the more consistent one now, and I'm doing them in release order, so it doesn't matter if they should be more consistent with the ''Mario Party Superstars'' ones since I haven't gotten to that one yet". The reason why people are only now saying something about it is that your course tables on Mario Kart Wii are by far the most egregious example, and it looked actually kinda alright on the prior Mario Kart pages (even if they still include some unnecessary things like internal filenames and course BGM, and there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the old tables there either - hello ''[[Mario Kart DS#Courses|Mario K]][[Special:Diff/4253367#Courses|art DS]]''). {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:51, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
::Well, on this page, I think they were brought up on other ones, and I mostly remembered people saying "later ones" (which would include it) and "Mario Kart [number]." And to be fair, I fixed the glaring issues brought by MKW's widescreen screenshots to this style by removing them, and also removed the internal names for it; look at the "retro" section on the page now, it looks a lot better than it did when this proposal was initially made. MKDS's main issue, admittedly, was the battle courses being in a different section entirely; to the point that at first, I thought they were outright missing from the page, their location was so counter-intuitive. And I will metaphorically die on the hill that while the BGM may not be "necessary," it does not hurt anything but ''does'' add more to it, so it's better there than not there by sheer measure of enrichment. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:01, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::You still haven't addressed my comment about requiring to include sound effects in item sections, voice files into character sections, vehicle engine sounds in vehicle sections, which are all as equally important, adds more to the article, and as enriching as BGM. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 03:20, July 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::We don't -have- files for most of those, and sound effects are different from music - mainly because they almost always have more than one per entity. That being said, I'd have no problem with including the select character voice clip, or the engine noises (note that I did include the character-based unqiue victory themes on the SMK character table); most of the items don't really have a distinct audial cue (let alone in a consistent context), though. And apologies for not answering this one sooner, I legitimately did not see it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:53, July 29, 2024 (EDT)