Editing Talk:Mario Kart 8

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*'''[[Talk:Mario Kart 8/Archive 1|Archive 1]]'''
*'''[[Talk:Mario Kart 8/Archive 2|Archive 2]]'''
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== Koopa Clown Car cameo? ==

Has anyone noticed in Mario Kart Stadium that the Koopa Clown Car makes a cameo in this game's course? The only thing different about this one is that it has the MKTV logo on it.--[[Special:Contributions/70.79.246.167|70.79.246.167]] 02:26, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
:I don't think it's been recorded on this page because it's not that noteworthy...but feel free to add that to the Koopa Clown Car page if it's not already there. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 03:50, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
::Yes, I have. If you go to the sponsors list and look at the means of advertising for 'Mario Kart TV/MKTV', Clown Car is listed there. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 14:53, 24 March 2017 (EDT)

== Master Cycle's underwater Speed ==

I found out this July that Master Cycle's underwater speed is +0.5 and NOT -0.25! Whoever did this change must change it right now! [[User:Sarantis|Sarantis]] ([[User talk:Sarantis|talk]]) 08:56, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
:I'm saying this now, if you can't change the second stats to be identical to the REAL first stats (the first stats says that Master Cycle's underwater speed is actually +0.5), then remove the second stats on both character and vehicle part stats and keep only the first, so you can change Master Cycle's underwater speed to +0.5. [[User:Sarantis|Sarantis]] ([[User talk:Sarantis|talk]]) 17:45, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
::I just checked and experimental evidence suggest that the Master Cycle water speed is +0.5, so that will be changed. I wonder what is the source for these hidden stats...--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:16, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Ok, now the value is correct. The experimental data I was talking about is [http://mkboards.com/forums/threads/an-overview-on-technical-aspects-of-mario-kart-8.15811/#post-348384 here] and [http://www.mkboards.com/forums/threads/an-inference-on-the-contribution-of-coins-and-land-speed-value-to-maximum-land-speed.12619/#post-280020 here].--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:29, 26 September 2015 (EDT)

== 200cc ==

It turned out that 200cc changes more aspects of the game rather than just increasing speed, you can see here a brief summary of the discovered changes so far: http://mkboards.com/forums/threads/what-we-know-about-200cc-so-far-aka-the-general-200cc-discussion-thread.19209/ . Do you think a small subsection should be made about these changes? If so, where in the page?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:"making it more like a 400cc class than a 200cc class" I don't really agree. I've played 400cc with modded Mario Kart Wii, and it's definitely even faster than this 200cc. Anyway, we can't include information like fire-hopping and demon-sliding since that kind of jargon is out of the wiki's scope. I think other points are direct consequences from higher speeds than actual gameplay changes (like Mini Turbos and Super Mini Turbos), but I think acceleration tiers, braking mechanics, actual speed increase, and a few other things can be mentioned. Nice work, though, and it's very interesting information that has a spot here. You can probably add it to the corresponding section in the DLC spot. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 13:55, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::The sentence was derived from actual experimental data, sorry that the sentence wasn't clear: http://mkboards.com/forums/threads/the-relative-speed-of-the-engine-classes.16403/ Since the speed of 50cc is 80% the speed of 150cc and the speed of 100cc is 90% the speed of 150cc, following the trend one can see that 200cc should have had 110% the speed of 150cc, since it is 150%, one can do 50cc x 5 = 250cc. 250cc + 150cc is equal to 400cc, this is why 400cc was mentioned. Regarding the techniques, I would only say that the game's physics was corrected so that some exploits are no longer effective and I would add the reference to the Youtube video, of course if even that is still too complex I can just not say it and only say the 3 other points (50% speed icnrease, complete acceleration subtiering and brakedrifting as an official new, proper technique).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:21, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Brakedrifting was a thing before this game, but I think at least the 50% speed increase, further acceleration subtiering, braking mechanics, and slightly altered game physics to work for 200cc are notable enough. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:05, 7 November 2015 (EST)
::::In the end I put it in its own section because, as a component of an update, its download and activation are automatic and mandatory for online play and apparently also offline play if the Wii U is connected to internet, which is in contrast with how the DLC contents (including the free Mercedes one, which is downloaded and automatically used for the other players online, but still must be activated via eShop or the in-game shop if the player wants to use it for himself/herself) are handled. On the other hand, there are already two updates dealing with it so the updates section maybe wasn't ideal. Since the following section is about differences between normal play and local split screen play I thought this was an appropriate space. Of course if you think the reasoning is flawed I can easily move it in the DLC section or where you think is better.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:51, 8 November 2015 (EST)
:::::My twin suggested that the changes should be in paragraph format than list format, and also said that it should be a sub-section under 200cc, since it is a thing asosciated with DLC after all. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 11:09, 8 November 2015 (EST)
::::::You meant DLC isntead of 200cc in "a sub-section under 200cc"?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:12, 8 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::That's what I meant. Sorry I fudged that. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 11:16, 8 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Ok, I'll do that. Since, however, 200cc is clearly distinct from the DLC packs in that it is usable without them and it is autoamtically deployed without the activation via eShop/in-game shop (it is actually more akin to the on-screen map and the statistics screen in this sense), I would suggest a reorganization of the DLC section like this:
::::::::*content activated via eShop/in-game shop
::::::::**Mercedes Benz x Mario Kart 8
::::::::**The Legend of Zelda x Mario Kart 8
::::::::**Animal Crossing x Mario Kart 8
::::::::*content activated automatically when updating
::::::::**on-screen map
::::::::**Statistics screen
::::::::**200cc engine class
::::::::What do you think?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:07, 8 November 2015 (EST)

Since I didn't receive an answer, I made the changes requested in a more conservative way, still clearly distinguishing between DLC packs and 200cc engine class.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:12, 9 November 2015 (EST)
:Your formatting was a bit wonky, so I fixed that. BTW, sorry I couldn't get to you yesterday, IRL got in the way, alongside wanting to play video games. What you did was ok. Well, larger content additions should get their own section under "DLC" while the small stuff can be lumped under "Updates", so the article is pretty fine right now. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 16:11, 9 November 2015 (EST)
::Ok! By the way, may I ask you to readd the newline section separator after the 2nd DLC pack (<nowiki>{{br}}</nowiki>)? Currently, with my 1920 x 1200 monitor the screenshot of the 2nd DLC pack is on the right of the 200cc section, and I think this is not the intended layout.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:37, 11 November 2015 (EST)

== How the AT (acceleration tiers) work in all engine classes ==
Sorry for any disturbing around here, but I believe in the "List of MK8 Glitches" page should include how the acceleration tiers in all engine classes. I already did the 200cc one (I just changed the description a bit). You'll find how they work in all engine classes in the 2nd archive of the discussion. [[User:Sarantis|Sarantis]] ([[User talk:Sarantis|talk]]) 09:21, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:The problem is that actually tiering seems to be a part of Mario Kart since well before Mario Kart 7 was made: you can look at the table of actual data for Mario Kart Wii [http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Mario_Kart_Wii here] and it can be seen that the most important factor affecting acceleration, the E value, is tiered. There are only two possible values of it while going straight and three possible values of it while drifting. Not to say that [[Mario Kart: Double Dash!!]] actually has two possible values of the factor that affects how fast you accelerate when your speed is over a certain threshold (the second factor). So I don't think Mario Kart 7 is really the first case of tiering, it's just more evident in it and in Mario Kart 8 because those games make you think that you can finely set the acceleration stat to a value you like by choosing the appropriate parts or characters, while in the previous home console games the values were forced by the vehicle or the character chosen (you can see this clearly in both tables of in-game values of ''Mario Kart Wii'' and ''Mario Kart: Double Dash!!'').<br />
:On the other hand, the incomplete subtiering of acceleration in all the engine classes of Mario Kart 8 except for 200cc is clearly a bug, since it is fixed in the 200cc engine class. I don't know if it should be added also in the list of glitches since it is already reported in the 200cc section and since a fix for it is actually already in the game, even though restricted to only an engine class.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:31, 14 December 2015 (EST)

== Why is the AT glitch removed from the glitches section? ==
Just saying because I noticed that. I've seen that it's also removed in the MK7 glitches section. [[User:Sarantis|Sarantis]] ([[User talk:Sarantis|talk]]) 05:22, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:This is a 3 months late response, but I'll bite anyway to any future people who would want to add this back in: acceleration tiers are not "glitches". They're intentionally programmed this way into the game. The system is far too elaborate, functional, and systematic for it to be an accident or a hole in coding. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 20:28, 11 April 2016 (EDT)

== DLC Karts Missing ==

In The Drivers Section, I Notesed (sorry for typo) That The DLC Char's Were '''Missing!''' Please Add Them.
{{unsigned|Bluebatstar}}
:No they're not. They're already there. Also, please remember to sign your posts. Thank you. [[User:CrashBash|CrashBash]] ([[User talk:CrashBash|talk]]) 10:51, 10 April 2016 (EDT)

== I think the true stats should get their own page ==

Just as PM64 and PM:TTYD have dedicated pages for enemy stats and formations, I think this game's actual stats should get their own page(s). I mainly suggest this because I think it makes the article look like a mess it is now.

This should be done with Mario Kart Wii's actual stats, too. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 11:17, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
:If done only for the actual stats that would be misleading, as Mario Kart Wii's reported stats are imprecise (the drift stat of inside drifting bikes is generally lower than that of karts). On the other hand, making a separate page both kind of stats would be an interesting idea, and in case of MK8 this would also mean including the drivers and parts stat. Of course, a separate page should also be done for item probability distributions, at this point. Since this means extensive page reorganization, I think we have to know what the others think about it.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:41, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
::I have to agree with Smoked Chili on this. We have separate bestiary pages for a reason, and to the average reader, all of those numbers and statistics are confusing. General information that is easily understandable and accessible should be kept on the ''Mario Kart 8'' article while we should have a sub-page for the more specialized stuff. Annnd, after thinking about it, I really think those numbers in parentheses in the character and vehicle stats sections are confusing as hell too. I know Sarantis in the past voiced discontent about it, and now, I kinda agree with him on that. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:06, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
:::A split will happen, then. On the last point, the in-game stats revealed that, unsurprisingly, the PRIMA guide is correct. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z3qnkDSFcI9OoV9sOvI79MUib0FDOGHVhjWBjXHmNVg/pubhtml In-game stats are in points, not in bar values]. Even the headers in the files (PTBD, PTDV, PTTR, PTWG) refers to points. This is why bar values were confusing (especially in the case of water speed for tires, as Standard Tires have max water speed). Of course, the resulting stats translation tables were made taking into account bar values, but even then they don't use bar values, they are just tables with 21 rows (the last row for the extra value). If you can suggest better ways to convey the information in both values (remember that the table I link to in the references only has points value, being a direct transcription) I would be more than happy to use it, like in MKW case.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:57, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
::::If you want an idea for a split, take a look at any Mario RPG article, say ''[[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]''. Look at the bestiary section. All it has is basic information that any editor can understand and conveniently use if they want to look up general information. If they want specific data for a specific enemy, they can look at the [[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time bestiary]], where more in-depth information such as drop rates, level, power, etc are located. I think the same thing should happen to the vehicle stats. Maybe leave the in-game information for the stats in the ''Mario Kart 8'' article, as well as the values, but the water handling, air speed, and whatnot should go into the stats article. For the stats in parentheses, maybe we should create two tables for that, there's no need to cram all information in one table, it's not good presentation. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:25, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::Agreed with moving information into a separate page. I also think something akin to the column-like layout of the horizontal style of the infobox templates to make it easier to read in general. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:10, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
::::::The double tables for vehicles stats is a neat idea. I will see this weekend, as there is quite some work to do. As base stats shown in the main page's table, we might use the ones shown by the menu in bar units, at this point. They are correct, just incomplete and in a format different from the one used in-game, though still useful as the developers were targeting this format too when introducing acceleration and weight. The format for the new page would be:<br />
::::::* Parts's stats in bar values
::::::* Parts' stats in points
::::::* Stats Translation Tables
::::::This way, the ones who want to go deeper can do so. The points table might follow the ordering used by the game, including the unused (always set to 0.75 regardless of the amount of points) ON stat.
::::::We'll need to have a separate discussion for MKW, as in that case the stats shown are quite approximate at best when compared to the in-game stats and we risk to simply convey false information on the main page, with the correct stats in a not-so-seen page.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:49, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::::Done! If there are other corrections needed, please tell me!--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:32, 25 June 2016 (EDT)

I was wondering if the approach I tried for [[Mario Kart 7]] makes more sense. Essentially, all the in-game stats are reported as they are in their own page which has, as a consequence, a clearer title and introduction, while the tables reporting all the stats in bar values - that are a convenience representation, not used at all by the game for the hidden stats - are left in the main page. I was thinking about that simply because the stats translation tables are easily missed in a page that is just supposed to report the stats.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:03, 10 November 2016 (EST)

== Mii Icon ==

Shouldn't we have the Mii icon with the bottom white half that has the amiibo logo on it? Or it is not needed? --[[User:Sigma|Sigma]] ([[User talk:Sigma|talk]]) 21:35, 29 July 2016 (EDT)
:I think we could use it, especially in the gallery section of this article, but I'm not sure if we need to replace the character icon, as the Mii character icon conveys important information already, without the unnecessary details of the amiibo part.. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 21:43, 29 July 2016 (EDT)


== Possible DLC Pack 3? ==

In the Nintendo Switch reveal trailer, it showed small details about this game featuring what looked to be a possible Double Dash style mode and King Boo. I link the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvcEJ9LIHz8

Watch at around or a little before the 1:46 mark.--[[File:Super Nintendo controller.png |30 px]][[User:Nintendoplayerawesome|<span style="font-family:serif;color:#F90	">Nintendoplayerawesome</span>]] 11:00, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
: A DLC pack 3 was indeed [https://twitter.com/NintendoEurope/status/738777797125144576 teased by NOE], it would have included N64 Kalimari Desert. We'll see if this will become indeed a 3rd DLC pack for Mario Kart 8.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:59, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
::they showed just two items, i highly doubt there'll be a double dash-styled mode. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 22:52, 20 October 2016 (EDT)

Um...  actually I'm not sure there's going to be anymore DLC for Mario Kart 8. But we might get some for the port, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. [[User:Thefamman|Thefamman]] ([[User talk:Thefamman|talk]]) 12:27, 18 April 2017 (EDT)

== Incorrect Stats? ==

I Believe The Glider Stats Are Actually Incorrect! Proof: [http://i.imgur.com/WwqJF4O.png] (These Are Taken From The Prima Guide) <br> {{User:The Koopa Bro./sig}}
:The stats are copied and pasted from the game code, it is important to note that the code works with points, not with the stats written with respect to the standard parts - the image you linked to does something different still. Since reporting the stats as difference with respect to the standard parts already leads to misleading conclusions, I don't see the way of writing stats in the image better, as the criterion has a problem: it starts from the stats shown in the vehicle customization screen, but doing so leaves the Mini-Turbo stat out, forcing the finding of another criterion for it. I rechecked and the stats of the gliders written in the main page and in the separate one are correct, it is important to note that the PRIMA guide has typos, so far I found typos in the stats of the Standard Tires and Blue Standard Tires, as well as in the stats of the Of-road Tires and Retro Off-Road Tires, in that the Mini-Turbo stat of the formers is 0 point while in the game it is 2 points and the Handling of the latters is 4 while it is 3 in the game.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 16:34, 16 January 2017 (EST)

== Reused Music ==

Are there any ideas why [[Mario Kart Stadium]]'s melody was reused as that for another course's ([[Mario Circuit (MK8)|Mario Circuit]]'s)? [[User:Torey|Torey]] ([[User talk:Torey|talk]]) 07:06, 2 July 2018 (EDT)

:Because it's the game's main theme. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 07:18, 2 July 2018 (EDT)
::See also: Every other ''Mario Kart'' game. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 09:26, 2 July 2018 (EDT)
:::Actually, in this case they even used a jazzy rearrangement of the theme, while in the previous console and handhled Mario Kart games the tracks as a whole were reused. By the way, Mario Circuit is pretty much the main track of ''Mario Kart 8'', to the point that the logo of the game is based on its layout, so you can expect it to have the main theme of the game, that in this case is the theme used in Mario Kart Stadium.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:36, 2 July 2018 (EDT)

== Is the brake+accelerate boost (known from Mario Kart Wii) also possible in Mario Kart 8? ==

When holding the accelerator and brake simultaneously in Mario Kart Wii, you can turn on the spot. Additionally, you can get a blue flame after 3 seconds to boost the acceleration from the non-moving state. Does that exist in Mario Kart 8 and 8 Deluxe? --[[Special:Contributions/84.147.36.71|84.147.36.71]] 09:48, 6 October 2018 (EDT)
:This boost [[Mini-Turbo#Mario Kart Wii|is actually charged in just 75 frames]], and was removed in Mario Kart 8. You can still turn on the spot, although that works differently in Mario Kart 8 (it looks more like the wheels skidding in place, and indeed a skidding behavior has been added in Mario Kart 8, being most evident in 200cc).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:13, 6 October 2018 (EDT)
:: Thank you for explaining. --[[Special:Contributions/84.147.36.71|84.147.36.71]] 11:48, 6 October 2018 (EDT)

== Mario Kart Tour ==

Can we mention Mario Kart Tour in this article?  Mario Kart Tour takes a lot from this game, and I think it should be included in the "References in later games" section. --[[User:Jacklavin|Jacklavin]] ([[User talk:Jacklavin|talk]]) 11:35, May 23, 2020 (EDT)

== Course-Specific Differences ==

I was wondering if someone could convert the course-specific differences information into a collapsible table? (I'm no good at coding tables.) This way, the page doesn't need to become too long from the list of minute details. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 00:55, October 26, 2020 (EDT)

== Should we include the CPU Combinations? ==

I remember a while back when someone added the CPU vehicle combinations to the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe page, and even if the Wii U version has very basic combos for them, I feel it's only fair to include them here. (also since CPUs can choose one of three gliders for each one, I think said gliders should be in their own category on there) --  [[User:SpikeTheChespin|SpikeTheChespin]] ([[User talk:SpikeTheChespin|talk]]) 12:55, July 15, 2024 (PDT)

==Use [[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]] vehicle part thumbnail icons for [[Mario Kart 8]] parts==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|failed|10-13|Continue using ''Mario Kart 8'' vehicle thumbnail icons for ''Mario Kart 8'' parts}}

[[File:GLA-MK8.png]]

https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/c/c2/20240702173333%21GLA-MK8.png
https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/c/c2/20170727212638%21GLA-MK8.png
https://i.imgur.com/gKo5IKL.gif

MK8, MK8DX, Gif comparison

Currently, I have a dispute regarding vehicle part icons from ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'' vs ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''. When I first uploaded the thumbnails, I've replaced them because they're virtually identical thumbnails with the older variant of them being a more compressed variant to address system limitations. However, the thumbnail I've reuploaded got reverted because it wasn't faithful to the original game, and I personally disagree with that assessment, for several reasons.

*The higher quality variant of the thumbnail is obviously the one one intended for players to see, had it not been for system limitations. Hence why it got a face-lift in the Switch port.
*The icons are virtually identical in terms of resolution and size, and would be unnoticeable in galleries regardless, except that the 8 version has more visible compression artifacts when viewed up close. To me, this is like keeping an original JPG of the image just to be faithful to the game or website that originally uploaded than upgrading to PNG with transparency.
*The icons aren't visually discernible, unlike TTYD vs SPM's food icons, unless you actively do comparisons, making the need for a separate icon for the kart thumbnails obsolete and frankly, gives out unnecessary discoverability issues in the wiki if the images are split up (ie looking up where icons gets used in articles would unnecessarily be harder just for the sake of unnecessary faithfulness to game asset usage). I also find it a little bit asinine we have literally identical files for Yoshi's Island SNES vs GBA level icons when we should just merge them for the sake of usability on this wiki.
*Having near duplicate images is messy for our galleries and creates unnecessary redundancy for the sake of asset purity; basically form over function.

What I propose we do is to use Mario Kart 8 Deluxe icons to universally represent the icons regardless of game source, and it would also mitigate the need to upload all of these images separately.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Ray Trace }}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>August 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>August 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>August 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to August 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Ray Trace}}
#{{User|Tails777}} Not gonna lie, when I saw that we had these icons for both games, my immediate thought was "Why?". Like sure, the quality difference is noticeable when shown side by side, but otherwise... they are the exact same icons. I don't see a problem with using the better quality images if they're the same anyway. We already use the MK8 versions of the track icons for the 8 Deluxe page, heck we use renders from [[:File:MP8 Waluigi Solo Artwork.png|three]] [[:File:Yoshi Artwork - Mario Party Island Tour.png|different]] [[:File:Daisy MP10.png|Mario Party]] titles for The Top 100 rather than re-upload the same image just because it's from the game.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per all. The intention is that they're the same thing. So in other words, the ''DX'' icons are how the icons were meant to be displayed in the Wii U version, but compression had somehow messed it up in the process. Therefore, this made the Wii U icons "unintentionally official." For thumbnails on like wikitables, using the Wii U icons or Switch icons doesn't make a difference because one cannot tell the immediate difference. However, if one can tell the difference, let's say if the Wii U image was large enough, using the lower quality image is doing a disservice.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per Tails. Aside from the compression, these renders are identical right down to the resolution. I've seen other instances of duplicate renders being uploaded on the basis that they're ripped from the game and are scaled down, so ''technically'' they're unique sprites ([[:File:MP6_Mario3.jpg|Mario Party 6 Title Logo Mario]], [[:File:Mario_Pointy_MP6.png|my behated]]), and this seems no different. In-game artwork in general should not be exempt from the "purge lower-quality duplicates" treatment; not in an artistic quality sense (i.e. all-stars would fall under this otherwise), but in a literal image quality sense (pre-rendered sprites from e.g. DKC or Yoshi's Story are the obvious exceptions here). This ought to be the case even for renders made for games if they happen to be the same render, especially when they are used in the ''same context'' at the ''same resolution'' in a remake of the game the render originally came from.
#{{User|Mario}} These are hairsplit differences. It would be easier for wiki maintenance to have all the file links in one place. I'm not a fan of how these are split and we have to actually decide if we should be using DX or the 8 one for, say Time Trials. Do we update the Time Trials icons to the 8DX one or not? We shouldn't have to fret over what amounts to the virtually same image. This wiki already doesn't really "respect" where the origins of the sprites come from. [[:File:MK8 Mario Icon.png]] and [[:File:MK8DX Mario Icon.png]] are virtually the same image (except different dimensions, maybe a slight emboss highlight difference?; the former doesn't have a crop applied to it probably to make it presentable as illustration on the stat tables) yet if you look at the file links, the first one is used in the Deluxe pages, second one isn't anywhere frequently as used. ''At least'' in the Mario Party 6 example being used, the thing does have an alpha channel while the game art doesn't, but otherwise it really shouldn't be here anyway.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} <s>According to the comments, the actual in-game versions of these sprites are identical, which lends credence to them just being uncompressed versions of the same images.</s> Okay, so um. I misread that completely. Even so, though, I find DrippingYellow's argument convincing.
#{{User|Okapii}} Per all, convincing arguments on both sides but imo the convenience that just using the MK8D sprites provides for the wiki is more valuable than the sense of preservation gained by keeping the exact same images in slightly lower quality.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. These aren't different images, they're just the same images with different amounts of compression applied. It's needlessly pedantic, and I strongly doubt 99% of readers would notice, or even care for that matter, that it technically isn't the exact same image.
#{{User|Shyguy85}} Per all.
<s>#DryBonesBandit Per all.</s>
===Oppose===
#{{User|Hewer}} It feels a bit disingenuous to pretend an image came from a game that it didn't actually come from. Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe are two separate games with different sprites, we should be reflecting that instead of just using a wrong sprite and saying "close enough".
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Hewer and I, see eye-to-eye.
#{{user|TheUndescribableGhost}} For educational purposes, it's a much better idea.
#{{user|Sdman213}} per all.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} If ''Mario Kart 8'' used lower quality icons, even in just in terms of compression used, using those in place of the higher quality ones of ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' simply reflects how the game originally looked and one of the many small changes of Deluxe compared to the original. Not necessarily a big deal in this case, but the general approach of showing things like the looked at the time does make sense, also in the context of a naming policy that for example promotes the use of the name of the time.
#{{User|Metalex123}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per Hewer and Mister Wu. Different games that use different sprites, so as minor as the differences are, they should still be taken into account. It also more accurately reflects what the Wii U's graphic capabilities are like.
#{{User|ExoRosalina}} Why? It looks extremely different sprites between original and the deluxe one. The only case is the compression in their quality.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per opposition. Different games is different games.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} I agree with Hewer and Mister Wu. We should keep the original icons for the original game, and the updated ones for the updated game. Doing otherwise would be unfaithful to both games.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all
#{{User|MarioComix}} Per Scrooge200. Also due to the recent ''Paper Mario'' hype, I was looking at recurring recipes in the series and consider the [[Spicy Soup]]: would it be accurate to outright replace the ''TTYD'' GCN sprite with the ''SPM'' Wii sprite? On another note, not all viewers view the site in the same manner. I always browse on my laptop at 100%, but if there's people viewing the website on their phone, zoomed in at 150%? The graphical differences in general do become a lot more noticeable too. (Whether we should display images based on the original portrayal, or with the most ideal-looking graphic, is a different story.)
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} After viewing the arguments again, this makes more sense to me. Per all.

===Comments===
I wasn't aware these icons even ''were'' different. And I'm the guy behind [[Template:Ghost]], so... I'm worried we might have a lot of work to do in that part of the infobox. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:37, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
:I've elected not to reupload them mostly because I felt like it wasn't necessary and it creates much more unnecessary work because the 8DX icons are simply better quality variants of the 8U ones, similar to how we upload pngs with transparent backgrounds when we find a better variant. Having to redo ghost tables because of a compression difference between games was something I did find silly but I guess people don't agree with that. By the way, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe actually does use different file names for sound bytes in the game (I don't know if they are actually the same) and their course.szs model files are actually different files between games but I don't think we're going to go as far to upload Luigi's "horrific sobbing" + the more standardized file name that MK8DX uses. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 22:16, July 24, 2024 (EDT)

I wanna point out that [[Big Tail Goomba|some pages]] use literally the ''exact'' same image multiple times due to sprite sharing and no one's complained. Meanwhile, ''Super Mario Bros. Deluxe''{{'}}s returning gameplay elements (other than Luigi) are identical to the originals in all but exact shades of color, yet we upload those separately. Version differences in compression quality are the modern equivalent to that, or to the SMAS remakes - for instance, how SM3DAS gave a boost to several of SM64's sprites and textures (looking at you, [[Mr. I]]) but we didn't overwrite our coverage there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:08, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
:I would personally support trimming some of those identical 3DS Mario & Luigi sprites. That Big Tail Goomba example is eye opening to that. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::I mostly agree, except the eyelids are different between ''Dream Team'' and ''Paper Jam''. But the ''Paper Jam'' and ''Bowser Minions'' sprites are exactly the same. Nevertheless, I think this proposal sets a good precedent about bringing up discussion over the overuse of basically identical game assets on the wiki in general, like the Big Tail Goomba listed above. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:42, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::I also agree with trimming literally the exact same images, another issue I had was the Yoshi's Island level icons. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:44, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::If they're literally the exact same, having not even one pixel in difference, those cases shouldn't need to go through a proposal because it's more clear cut. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:47, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::They're different because they're on different frames of animation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:43, July 25, 2024 (EDT)

@Tails777: There's a difference between almost the same (which these are) and literally identical (which, to my knowledge, your examples are - and if they aren't, they should also be uploaded separately). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:23, July 26, 2024 (EDT)

@Super Mario RPG: Being changed in a re-release doesn't make the original "unintentional", and even if it did, we're not deleting our [[pre-release and unused content]] or [[glitch]] coverage for being "unintentionally official". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:29, July 26, 2024 (EDT)
:I'd argue that these icons are practically the same as reuploading png artwork from a new website over an original jpg from a website, the DX thumb is closer to the original, identical asset before being compressed. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 10:27, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
::Except in those cases, they're not game assets. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:01, July 27, 2024 (EDT)

I also want to point out we ''do'' upload both games' maps despite there only being a color difference there. Not to mention, in regards to MK8's icon compressions, many icons of the same color (like red Standard Karts) are actually different in their pixel mapping - yet some are still the same (see the files in [[Gallery:Mario Kart 8#Color schemes]] to see what I mean) - to say nothing of the pre-v3.1 version of Isabelle's Super Glider, of which only a version with the Wii U compression exists. Only having the uncompressed ones skips coverage on that matter, which I think is a noticeable enough inconsistency that not covering it at ''all'' is a disservice. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:09, July 28, 2024 (EDT)

https://i.imgur.com/yHFEo3V.gif

These is an animated gif of the above green standard kart you linked to. If I didn't point out this was an animated gif, you would assume it's a static picture. How is splitting off Luigi's and Baby Luigi's standard karts because of negligible, visually indiscernible pixel mapping beneficial for wiki use at all? {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:16, July 28, 2024 (EDT)
:Because otherwise, you wouldn't know they were different. ''Someone''{{'}}s gotta bring it up, IMO. (Also considering how lossy .GIFs are, I don't quite trust their ability to accurately demonstrate it; they likely compress it even further to the point they're back to identical.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:18, July 28, 2024 (EDT)
::Trust me, I've previewed this image in GIMP by hiding and unhiding layers and I have exported it as webp. There is no difference between the two images. Some standard kart images DO show signs of separate compression (such as Mario vs Baby Mario's) but Mario Kart 8 Deluxe entirely eliminates the compression differences and you have two same icons as a result. I am very sure the only reason they even split the two icons apart are for programming reasons and that should be disregarded when it comes to uploading files for the wiki. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:39, July 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::And I argue those are precisely ''why'' those should be different uploads. And that still leaves the question of the early (but not unused) version of Isabelle's Super Glider; the way you propose would leave it the ''only'' compressed one, which would make it seem like that was what would make it unique. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:59, July 28, 2024 (EDT)

@Mario: I have bad news: [[:File:MK8DX Mario Icon.png|that current sprite uploaded in MarioWiki from the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe website]] is not the one used in the actual game. The actual in-game one is identical to Mario Kart 8's character icons. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:44, July 28, 2024 (EDT)

@Mario: The 8 Deluxe icons should be prioritised in general (e.g. as infobox images), but instances that specifically are in reference to the original 8 should instead use those original icons. I'm not sure what about that is too hard to comprehend or implement. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:13, July 29, 2024 (EDT)

@Ahemtoday: Where did you get that idea from? Ray Trace's comment above responding to Mario isn't referring to the vehicle icons, it's referring to the character icons (which aren't covered by this proposal). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:35, July 31, 2024 (EDT)
:Oops. That's what I get for not reading carefully enough... [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 14:51, July 31, 2024 (EDT)

Please explain the detriment of having them both. "Easiness" is not an argument when they've already all been uploaded, the "hard" part has already been done. Them being only mildly different is still acknowledging them as different - so again, what detriment does having them both cause? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:50, July 31, 2024 (EDT)
:I've already explained it in my proposal. Clearly you disagree with it, and that's fine. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:07, July 31, 2024 (EDT)
::You never listed anything detrimental, though. You listed why you think it's better to just have the ones, but not necessarily why you think it's worse to have them both - after all, the MK8DX ones won't be in this game's gallery, just that one's, so it's not really gonna cause clutter for said galleries. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:17, July 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::All what I said is subjective, "detrimental" is subjective, and I don't like near identical assets being repeated on galleries and finding split assets to illustrate icons for time trials ghosts. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:18, July 31, 2024 (EDT)
::::If we're really supposed to be using both then why [[:File:MK8 Mario Icon.png]] used for the Deluxe pages? Should we be using [[:File:MK8DX Mario Icon.png]], perhaps a padded out to maintain the dimensions? Seems like a big hassle to do over the templates these images are on, multiplied by every other character, and whatnot over the the need to maintain two virtually identical icons. Now, I know the proposal doesn't concern itself with character icons, but the logic of keeping two icons instead of one out of concern that people will be confused that... what... a sprite with DXT5 compression in the Wii U game isn't the sprite with the ARGB888 compression that's in the Switch game should be extended to every single icon and there should be consideration how that will affect templates that affect tons of pages that heavily rely on these icons, the game and character galleries that use these icons, and so on (also again, assuming Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's Time Trials are identical to Mario Kart 8 Time Trials, do we use the 8 Deluxe icons for all the course articles or not, or do we keep it the same); it's ''so'' much easier to have one icon for everything imo. {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:11, August 2, 2024 (EDT)
:::::As your sister has already explained, only the former of those is used in-game in ''any'' context, so that's not relevant. Regardless, I don't care about "easiness," I care about accuracy and objectiveness. From what I see, what you are attempting is for all intents and purposes Wii U erasure. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:18, August 2, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Reuploading a vehicle icon littered with compression artifacts from a superior, identical asset without said artifacts is not "Wii U erasure" by any means. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 03:33, August 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::By definition it's not identical then. And this still doesn't acknowledge the awkward situation that will surround the pre-update Isabelle glider icon being the only one with the compression artifacts remaining and the incorrect implications that will make (about it being the only one with them at all). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:54, August 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::If the Isabelle glider has noticeable differences outside of compression artifacts then it's not covered under this proposal and it should be reuploaded if a later update got rid of them. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:58, August 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::The direction on the plaid changed after an update; only the latter was used in 8DX to my knowledge. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:28, August 5, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::I'd support the different variations then, since it's not an identical texture but with visible image artifacts. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:42, August 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::My point is that that would leave it as the only one with artifacts, which would give off the impression that the artifacts were part of what was removed in the later rev. of the Wii U game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:54, August 5, 2024 (EDT)

:::::@Mario: I don't understand why you're acting like figuring out which sprite to use is some super difficult task. As I said earlier, 8 Deluxe icons would be prioritised in general, and original 8 icons would be used for instances specifically in reference to that game. I don't see how this causes problems in any of the cases you mention - the [[Mario Kart 8]] and [[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]] pages each have their own vehicle lists already so we can easily use the appropriate icons for each game in those, gallery pages having one more additional sprite isn't exactly disastrous, and the Time Trial ghosts actually are slightly different between 8 and 8 Deluxe and thus already have separate listings in the infoboxes on individual course pages (e.g. see [[Mario Kart Stadium]]'s infobox), so we can just use the icons for each game no problem. Also, we shouldn't be basing our decisions on what's "easier", but rather what's more accurate and informative. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:34, August 5, 2024 (EDT)
::::::The argument was never entirely about which item is "easier" to use, rather the two assets are identical in terms of practically everything except one does not have image compression artifacts and it's not worth keeping an asset with worse image quality just because of system limitations, which isn't even consistent across all of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's assets. That is why the ease of use argument is brought up. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:56, August 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::It's certainly worth it as a curiosity at the very least, especially with how some of the same colors are seemingly randomly compressed different from each other while others aren't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:55, August 5, 2024 (EDT)

@Ray Trace: Two questions.<br>
1.) Is it possible to set up the old version of an image to be used in specific pages, like the DX version of GLA icon for MK8DX page while MK8 page keeps the current version?<br>
2.) Do you think uploading both versions of part icons would be anything close to uploading NES game sprites with PAL version palette in addition to NTSC ones? Because I think that would be redundant. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:26, August 7, 2024 (EDT)

(Not to butt in on SmokedChili's question, but I want to point out that the NES doesn't really have a different "palette" between those, NTSC and PAL just tend to display color differently and the NES had no "true"/"raw" colors coded in, unlike later systems - MESEN/NEStopia emulators' palettes are preferred by many spriters, myself included, and are based primarily on how it appears on NTSC, simply because that's how the Japanese system was and because the more recent official emulations such as NSO use that sort of coloration. The question is still valid, but it's not quite that simple.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:26, August 8, 2024 (EDT)

@Shy Guy on Wheels: A different image is still a different image, and even if most people wouldn't notice, it doesn't hurt to be as accurate as possible. If people didn't care about the difference, there wouldn't be ten oppose votes on this proposal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:56, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

Personally, I fail to see how the following images are "too similar to matter:"<br>
https://www.marioboards.com/attachments/46944.png<br>
https://www.marioboards.com/attachments/46945.png<br>
https://www.marioboards.com/attachments/46946.gif<br>
-[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:24, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

@MarioComix: No, simply because the SPM sprite isn't just an exact replica of the TTYD sprite except there are compression artifacts in the image. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 23:37, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
:[[File:Peachy Peach TTYD.png]][[File:Peachy Peach SPM.png]] A majority of sprites of the same item between the two games are exactly the same with minor differences in compression and sometimes outline thickness. Much like here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:06, August 17, 2024 (EDT)
::The outlines are straight-up a different color between TTYD and SPM, though. That and the outline width differences are enough to make those and the vehicle parts images not even close to the same situation. I could immediately tell which peach was from which game when looking at them side-by-side; with the GLAs (not your extremely zoomed-in ones, the ones at the top of the proposal), I had to squint for a bit. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 16:42, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
:::Using extremely zoomed up pictures to discern differences is also bad faith (there is an animated gif in my proposal of the Cat Peach ATV that explicitly shows how it's meant to be viewed, not some gross zoom up), because no viewer would actually do that in order to discern between two near identical assets, except one is noticeably worse quality than the other. If these icons were a slightly different color, hell if their outlines were also thicker, I would have uploaded 8DX assets separately a long time ago. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:13, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
::::@DrippingYellow: Maybe my eyesight is just getting to me, but today I'm sitting about a foot away from my laptop screen, with some glare from sunlight, and legitimately, the two Peachy Peaches looked the same to me, I couldn't tell which one had the black outline and which had the other colour. But, once I put my face a bit closer, I could tell them apart like I normally had been able to. So what I'm trying to say is that the differences are so minute, yet it would be accurate to portray the sprites from each game as they appeared. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 19:25, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I am a spriter, most people here are not. "Extremely zoomed up" is how my eyes react to sprites by default, so I am merely showing how it looks from my perspective. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:29, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
::::::I'm a spriter as well. I do not view icons such as those in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe in this manner. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 00:25, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Well, I do. My first impulse is to paste them into paint.net, which I usually don't have at 100% zoom anyway. Also, even with the pink ATV, you can easily see it changing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

To be honest, even if this proposal does not pass, the overuse of assets could already be considered a gray area in terms of fair use. Not to mention these are all assets extracted from a game. Perhaps this is a separate discussion altogether, but I think the number of fair use images should be limited in general, especially when considering countries that have stricter guidelines than fair use. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 23:43, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
:If we were to start deleting game images for copyright concerns, surely it'd be a far bigger discussion affecting the whole wiki rather than just these vehicle sprites. I don't remember "overuse of assets" ever being considered as an argument before for anything in any discussion. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:00, August 17, 2024 (EDT)
::This is not an issue. If it was, sites like VG Resource would be forced to take down assets a long time ago. I've also heard that Nintendo is aware of it as well, iirc they asked them to not upload Pokemon assets before release of the game. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:10, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

@Ray Trace You still haven't answered my questions above. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:51, August 20, 2024 (EDT)
:Sorry, just wasn't answering the questions just because it looks like this proposal is a stalemate.
:"'' 1.) Is it possible to set up the old version of an image to be used in specific pages, like the DX version of GLA icon for MK8DX page while MK8 page keeps the current version?''" Yeah but I just prefer the 8 variant of the image just gets replaced altogether just because it is technically a worse version of the DX image (keeping in mind that when these assets are made, they're downscaled from a bigger one from the same source).
:"'' 2.) Do you think uploading both versions of part icons would be anything close to uploading NES game sprites with PAL version palette in addition to NTSC ones? Because I think that would be redundant.''" If the PAL version does have actually noticeable differences then sure. I don't really take account sprites though, because they have much more simple color profiles than these thumbnails so they're an entirely different beast. The technical equivalent in my eyes is, say, an NTSC uses a jpg image and the PAL uses a png image, you'd want to replace the jpg with a png. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 22:21, August 22, 2024 (EDT)