Editing Talk:Mario Golf (series)

"If your game sucks baldy"? come on, Elite Yoshi. {{User:Salty/sig}} 03:32, 2 Apr 2006 (EDT)
*I did a small cleanup on the article; however, I'm too lazy to get a picture. :P [[User:Evan|Evan]]

== Did I change that too much? ==

Anywho... the article now covers the entire series.  I did this because there are two games in the series called Mario Golf.  It's sort of like a very glorified disambiguation page now :).  What do you guys think?  I'm pretty sure that the old article's info is still in there.
:You did a fine job, but, I stress that you use two equal signs inbetween headers, not one. <span style="font-family:Kunstler Script; color:#006633;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Wayoshi|W]]'''ayoshi</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Wayoshi|T]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Wayoshi|C]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Emailuser/Wayoshi|@]] )</small> 23:32, 10 August 2006 (EDT)

Right.  I'll try to remember. :) by the way, what's the single equal sign for, then? [[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]]
:The <nowiki>=</nowiki> creates a header the same size as the page title itself (in this article, as big as Mario Golf). <span style="font-family:Kunstler Script; color:#006633;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Wayoshi|W]]'''ayoshi</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Wayoshi|T]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Wayoshi|C]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Emailuser/Wayoshi|@]] )</small> 10:38, 15 August 2006 (EDT)

:Thx.  Still don't know what you'd ever want to use it for, but it's good to have :)!  o.0 {{unsigned|Stumpers}}

==Dont deleat!==
Dont deleat the "for a list of charecter quotes see [[List of Quotes in the Mario Golf Series]] " It needs to be there so that List of Quotes in the Mario Golf Series has links leading to I'm not saying dont edit it I'm just saying leave the link. [[User:Dark boo|Dark boo]] [[Image:PMTTYD Dark Boo Sprite.png|35px]]

== Unlockable Mario ==

Mario Golf (N64) is the only game I know of where Mario is unlockable. I think we should point that out in the article. {{User|Why Bother}}

== Move Mario Golf (Nintendo 64) to {{fake link|Mario Golf 64}} ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-10|leave as it is}}
The same as Mario Tennis for the Nintendo 64. It would be better so we don't get confused with the others in the series.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Tails777}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 1, 2011, 23:59 GMT

===Move to {{fake link|Mario Golf 64}}===
#{{User|Tails777}} Per me

===Leave as it is===
#{{User|Bop1996}} Per my reasoning on the Mario Tennis proposal.
#{{User|MeritC}} And I'll say it here too - no, no, no, no, no... and a THOUSAND times no. The title for this article is fine enough. Don't change it.
#{{User|Mario & Luigi}} The article is fine now...
#{{User|M&SG}} - ''Mario Golf 64'' is not the official name of that game.
#{{User|RandomYoshi}} - Per M&SG.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
#{{user|Walkazo}} - We use official names for our articles, and that would be "Mario Golf", not "Mario Golf 64".
#{{User|Magikrazy51}} And that's why we have disambiguation pages. And it's not like they're all called Mario Golf (that would be stupid of Nintendo). Per all.
#{{User|Propeller Toad}} It might be nice; however, note that Mario Golf 64 is not the official name for this game. Mario Golf is, so therefore we must keep the name as it is.
#{{User|Toad85}} See my reply in the Mario Tennis proposal.

===Comments===
This proposal had the same problem as the other one did; the mainland United States would have the deadline on October 31, but GMT has it at November 1. {{User:Bop1996/sig}}

== Golf as the initial Mario Golf game? ==

OK I'm a bit doubtful whether Golf is the intial Mario Golf game, and I don't think it is the case, because of the following points: the first, Golf was part of a series of Sport games released for the Famicom which also included games like Baseball, Soccer (Football), Ice Hockey, Tennis, etc., other wise Tennis or Soccer (Football) would been the first game in the Mario Tennis and Maro Strikers seies (well Mario isn't in the latter but is a referi in Tennis). Second, these game in their original Japanese releases didn't use Mario to sell (even if he appeared in a cameo like the former Tennis), something NOA did, who exploited Mario's image to make in boxarts and manuals to make this games commercial in the western. Third, as such, the golfer in the original game is not Mario but someone called Ossan (middle age man), you are considering this a game of the Mario Golf series just because NOA affirmed the golfer is Mario but in Japan it isn't, then we enter in a conflict here (Ossan's appearance is also verificated on Captain Rainbow). NES Open Tournament Golf has more potencial being the first, or the precursor, game in the Mario Golf series because it is clear Mario is in the game.

{{User:Byllant/sig}}

== Considering NES Open Tournament Golf a "predecessor" ==

While I concede that ''Golf'' and probably by extension ''Family Computer Golf'' are fairly predecessorial(?), ''NES Open Tournament Golf'' was called '''''Mario''' Open Golf'' in Japan and introducd the use of original humans who follow the ''Mario'' aesthetic, along with the more comprehensive gameplay regarding clubs. Sure, it was before Camelot, the Nintendo 64 game seems more like a logical progression of its ideas in the same way ''Toadstool Tour'' is to the N64 game. I think ''NES Open Tournament Golf'' should be considered the first game in the actual series, since before that is a little hazy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:06, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
:It's kind of the same reason why ''Mario's Tennis'' is an indirect predecessor to the ''Mario Tennis'' series: the developer involved. The ''Mario Tennis'' and ''Mario Golf'' series are "direct" in the sense that they are all developed by Camelot. Similarly, the direct ''Mario Kart'' games are those developed in-house by Nintendo EAD, not by Bandai Namco (for the arcade games). This is how I understand it. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 18:27, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
::[[Donkey Kong Country (series)|Devs change sometimes tho]] [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:49, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm with Doc, a series isn't solely defined by its developers, Mario Party is another good example. That being said, a Mario golf game doesn't necessarily make a ''Mario Golf'' game. I'm unsure how to proceed here. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:04, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
::::"a Mario golf game doesn't necessarily make a ''Mario Golf'' game" [[Talk:Mario Tennis (series)|That's exactly what I've been saying about ''Mario's Tennis''.]] <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|RickTommy]] ([[User talk:RickTommy|talk]])</span> 19:25, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
:::::''Golf'' and ''Famicom Golf'' were just golf games that happened to star Mario (ambiguously in the first case). ''NES Open Tournament Golf'' was a ''Mario'' game centered around golf. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:54, October 31, 2019 (EDT)

== Split ''Golf'' (series) from ''Mario Golf'' (series) as a predecessor? ==

So the "predecessor/spinoff" list on this page is already a veritable series in its own right, with ''[[Golf]]'', ''[[Family Computer Golf: Japan Course]]'', ''[[Family Computer Golf: US Course]]'', and ''[[Mobile Golf]]''. From what I can see, the series name here is simply "''Golf''," with ''Mario Golf'' being in turn a spinoff of it. I think it perhaps should be its own article in the same manner as [[Famicom Grand Prix (series)|''Famicom Grand Prix'' (series)]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:42, July 5, 2023 (EDT)

== Mario Golf series start ==

The first "direct" installment of the Mario Golf series is Mario Golf for Nintendo 64 not NES Open Tournament Golf. This Was confirmed by Nintendo on Twitter.

~~ [[User: Big Super Mario Fan]]
:On [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/index.html Mario Portal's list of games], filtering for the Mario Golf series shows NES Open Tournament Golf (though it goes even further and also counts [[Golf: Japan Course]] and [[Golf: U.S. Course]]). I'd say that's more concrete evidence for its inclusion in the series than the [https://twitter.com/NintendoEurope/status/1511978054410817538 tweet] being referred to here is evidence against, since it only somewhat vaguely says that Mario Golf 64 "teed off" the series.  The tweet still could make sense even if Mario Golf 64 isn't the first game in the series - it "teed off" the series in the sense of bringing it back to stay after a near-decade of no installments, and beginning the era of Camelot as the developer of the series. Anyway, I do think we should consider adding Japan Course and U.S. Course to the series to match Mario Portal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:50, May 13, 2024 (EDT)

==Include Japan Course and US Course in the series==
{{TPP}}
As I mentioned above, [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/index.html Mario Portal's list of games] (which you can filter by series) counts [[NES Open Tournament Golf]] as a Mario Golf game, reaffirming the decision to include it that was made a while back, but it also includes [[Golf: Japan Course]] and [[Golf: U.S. Course]] in the series. I can't really think of a good argument against their inclusion that wouldn't also apply to NES Open Tournament Golf, so I think it'd make sense to count them as games in the series like Mario Portal does.

However, this would result in a lot of overlap with the [[Golf (series)]] page that also includes all three games, so it could be seen as [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|redundant]]. Since I'm not really sure how much of a problem this is, here's multiple options:

*Option 1: Just add Japan Course and US Course to the Mario Golf series page without doing anything to the Golf series page, i.e. count Japan/US Course as entries in both series like we already do with Open Tournament Golf.
*Option 2: Add Japan and US Course to the Mario Golf series and remove them and Open Tournament Golf from the Golf series, so that there's no overlap between the two, reducing redundancy.
*Option 3: Re-merge the Golf series page with the Mario Golf series page, putting Japan/US Course in the Mario Golf series and the other five games as related like we used to classify them. This also solves the redundancy problem, and while it might seem a little drastic, I don't know of any official source that acknowledges the "Golf series" (let alone defines it like the wiki does), and while it's not an identical situation, I could see some similar arguments to those against [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Split game series articles into sub-series articles|splitting sub-series]] applying here as well.
*Option 4: Do nothing, I guess.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Hewer}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Option 1: Just add Japan Course and US Course to the Mario Golf series===
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.

===Option 2: Add Japan Course and US Course to the Mario Golf series and remove them and NES Open Tournament Golf from the Golf series===
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Helps to differentiate which are the ''Super Mario'' entries proper and which are not.

===Option 3: Re-merge the Golf series page with the Mario Golf series page, adding Japan Course and US Course to the Mario Golf series and the other games as related===
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} This most aligns with my thoughts on the early ''Golf'' games to begin with, and keeps things neat on one page.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.

===Option Fore: Do nothing===

===Comments===
I think now's a good time as any to bring up a talking point I made a while back [[Talk:Golf#Mario in Golf.|here]]. It might be outside the scope of the proposal, but whichever way it passes, since ''Golf: Japan Course'' seems to be the official start of the ''Mario Golf'' series, I believe it would be best to classify its direct predecessor as historically significant. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:26, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 72: / Line 72: @@
 ==Include Japan Course and US Course in the series==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|2-2-6-0|merge Golf (series) with Mario Golf (series)}}
 As I mentioned above, [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/index.html Mario Portal's list of games] (which you can filter by series) counts [[NES Open Tournament Golf]] as a Mario Golf game, reaffirming the decision to include it that was made a while back, but it also includes [[Golf: Japan Course]] and [[Golf: U.S. Course]] in the series. I can't really think of a good argument against their inclusion that wouldn't also apply to NES Open Tournament Golf, so I think it'd make sense to count them as games in the series like Mario Portal does.
@@ Line 88: / Line 87: @@
 ===Option 1: Just add Japan Course and US Course to the Mario Golf series===
 #{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
-#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - My preference.
 ===Option 2: Add Japan Course and US Course to the Mario Golf series and remove them and NES Open Tournament Golf from the Golf series===
@@ Line 97: / Line 95: @@
 #{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
 #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} This most aligns with my thoughts on the early ''Golf'' games to begin with, and keeps things neat on one page.
-#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all.
+#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
-#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
-#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all. The "''Golf'' series" as a concept seems rather artificial to me.
-#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal and comments below.
 ===Option Fore: Do nothing===
@@ Line 106: / Line 101: @@
 ===Comments===
 I think now's a good time as any to bring up a talking point I made a while back [[Talk:Golf#Mario in Golf.|here]]. It might be outside the scope of the proposal, but whichever way it passes, since ''Golf: Japan Course'' seems to be the official start of the ''Mario Golf'' series, I believe it would be best to classify its direct predecessor as historically significant. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:26, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
-:The conflicting official sources make me unsure how to proceed there. The fact that there are sources for the golfer being Mario makes me lean a bit towards keeping full coverage to kind of align with how the wiki tries not to pick sides when official sources conflict, as encouraged by [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]] (e.g. we acknowledge the Koopalings as both being and not being Bowser's children depending on the era rather than picking a correct story), but I could easily see this case going either way. But I guess it's for a different discussion. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:59, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
-Could it be possible to vote for them being related series? [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 20:32, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
-:That's essentially the way it is right now, so I guess any option except Option 3 would achieve that, though Option 3 would also have a similar result by classifying each game as related individually (and to be honest, I've kinda started leaning towards Option 3 given the, as far as I know, lack of official sources supporting the existence or classification of the "Golf series"). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:11, July 2, 2024 (EDT)
-I'm not sure how relevant this would be, but as part of the anniversary material for the Famicom in the early 2000s, Nintendo published several soundtrack CDs for their Famicom games. Some were compilation albums representing several games and this was awkwardly conveyed in some of their names, but a few of them were given unique names that reflected their contents. For example, ''Duck Hunt'', ''Hogan's Alley'', and ''Wild Gunman'' were acknowledged as entries in the "Light Gun Series". ''[[Golf]]'' was recognized with ''Baseball'', ''[[Tennis]]'', and ''Ice Hockey'' as entries in the "'''Famicom Sports Series'''". I do not know if this conceptually existed prior to these CDs, but I thought it was worth mentioning. While I'm not sure what bearing that has on how we categorize ''Japan Course'' and ''U.S. Course'', or the other games simply called ''Golf'' on the Game Boy and Virtual Console, I'm not sure whether the original ''Golf'' really constitutes as an entry in the ''Mario Golf'' series, or whether it is better understood as a separate but influential predecessor (similar to the relationship between ''Mario Bros.'' and original ''Super Mario Bros.''). - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:44, July 14, 2024 (EDT)
-:It's the latter, as Mario Portal excludes the original Golf from the series. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:43, July 15, 2024 (EDT)
-==Some Characters are mixed up on the navigation page==
-The navigation section for Mario Golf states that Kyoko and Kyle are from the Mario Golf series, when they both debuted in Mario Tennis: Power Tour. {{unsigned|ObakeidoroGuy}}
-:[[Template:Humans|It's fixed]], thanks. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 07:09, November 18, 2024 (EST)
-== Remove information of ''Golf*'' for Virtual Boy from this article ==
-{{settled TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|passed|8-0|Remove info}}
-''Golf*'' for the Virtual Boy really has no reason to have information here. Sure, it may be similar to ''Mario Golf'', but that doesn't necessarily make it related to the ''Mario Golf'' series. It also doesn't help there's no ''Mario'' characters in the game either. Sure, ''Game Boy Gallery'' is the same in the ''Game & Watch Gallery'' series, but at least the first ''G&WG'' game was titled "Game Boy Gallery 2" in Australia, confirming it to be a ''Game Boy Gallery'' sequel. This, however, has no real correlation aside from both being games about golf.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Kaptain Skurvy}}<br>'''Deadline''': February 15, 2025, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Jdtendo}} I don't think that the reuse of the name "Golf" should be perceived as a connection to the ''Golf'' series; it seems more like a lazy title that just so happen to be shared with another game with the same lazy title. Ditto for the seldom used name "Nintendo Golf": it means that it is a golf game published by Nintendo, not necessarily a game from Nintendo's ''Golf'' series.
-#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Pretty much the only similarities between Virtual Boy Golf and NES Golf are the name, and being by Nintendo.
-#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per all.
-#{{User|Platform}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|SComic}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Mario}} While we shouldn't be giving this game an in-depth entry in this page, I feel information from Golf* that's relevant to the Mario Golf series, particularly the part where "some of its mechanics are used in Mario Golf for the Nintendo 64", should go in a Notes section of this article and be elaborated.
-===Oppose===
-===Comments===
-It being called "Nintendo Golf" on the main menu in the English release indicates to me at least that it was localized by NoA as a follow-up to ''Golf'' on NES and ''Golf'' on Game Boy, which do get full coverage, so I feel it deserves ''some'' degree of acknowledgement. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:03, February 1, 2025 (EST)
-:They get full coverage because they star [[Mario]] (...or, well...{{fake link|Ossan}}...), but VB ''Golf'' doesn't. Maybe it could be mentioned somewhere, but I don't think it deserves a paragraph in the "Related" games section alongside ''[[Mobile Golf]]'' and ''[[Mario Sports Superstars]]'' (which both include ''Mario'' characters). {{User:Kaptain Skurvy/sig}} 06:34, February 2, 2025 (EST)
-::Previously it was simply mentioned on the ''Golf'' (series) page, which we no longer have. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:28, February 2, 2025 (EST)