Editing Talk:List of allies

==Delete this article==
{{TPP}}
I've honestly never liked the [[:Category:Allies|system of categorizing allies]] that's been in place. A character can be a considered an ally at the drop of a hat (which often includes [[Einstein|being kind of helpful]] [[Garson|to the heroes]] [[Gooma|at one point]] and [[Doctor Toadley's intern|being next]] [[Gabbro|to the heroes]] [[Elvin Parsley|at one point]], and more often than not they end up encompassing every supporting character that appears in a game. How that category should be dealt with is a problem for another time, but that really outlines why this page is pointless. The point of these major lists ([[List of games|games]], [[List of species|species]], [[List of items|items]], etc.) is so that we can have a convenient and coherent list of basically every single element. However, what's the point of having a list that cherry-picks a handful of characters from the [[List of characters|list of characters]]? It's retreading what doesn't need to be retread. I really don't see why a character that popped in once to help Mario is worthy of being separated-but-not-really into its own list. Everyone here is already listed on the list of characters, by the way, so it's not like it's unreasonable to have them there. The bottom line is, there's really no reason for this to be separate. Since everything here's already in the same condition on the larger list, simply deleting the list will work out.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 8, 2014, 23:59 GMT

===Delete===
#{{User|Time Turner}} I support my proposal.
#{{User|Freakworld}} Reversinator you do not stand alone in your opinion! (This Time.)

===Not delete===
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} per... oh wait I'm alone wah. But still I want to see all the allies.
#{{User|Mario}} This list helps filter allies to make them easier to find. We have a list of not only characters, but enemies, species, which all overlap in some way. Same goes for this list. Besides, allies, usually allied species, including [[Bob-omb Buddy]], [[Board (Super Mario Galaxy)]], [[Helibird]], [[Huffin' Puffin]], and several others, are not on "List of characters", and I'd argue that critters such as [[Blitty]] go on this list, not on the characters list. You might as well merge allies, enemies, and species all into the characters list, which I don't really support. The bottom line: this list is not redundant and it serves its purpose meaningfully.
#{{User|Randombob-omb4761}} These are not main characters and need this list. So, per Mario.
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} Deleting this is like deleting [[List of bosses]]  and other related articles, and I wouldn't support that either. Per Mario.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} I generally agree that this page is one of many that should probably be looked at, but I don't know that I'm for out and out deletion. Reviewing the argument from both sides, I feel the "not delete" arguments are stronger and have displayed more reasons for keeping (and perhaps utilizing a clean-up tag) than blanket deleting.

===Comments===
'''@Toadbriage5''': Can you elaborate as to why you want to see them? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}

:"However, what's the point of having a list that cherry-picks a handful of characters from the [[List of characters|list of characters]]?"

I wouldn't say this list is redundant with "Characters", as this list filters out the allies from the big general list. Besides, some allies, such as [[Bob-omb Buddy]]
:All right, a select few of the already-select few are species. That's just reinforcing my point everything here's already elsewhere. Besides, why would you specifically need allies? In what situation would it be beneficial to have all of the friendly people separated and not just a part of the main collection? Also, why do allies get to be separate? What makes the very, very vague description of "possibly helped/was there at some point" worth making a whole list for? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::I don't understand how it's a "select few"; I can make only so many examples at a time, and I don't understand how it reinforces your point. My point I'm making is that this list and the list of characters don't overlap to the point where it's unnecessary, while your point is that it's redundant with "List of characters". I think it's necessary to have allies because it organizes characters the same way the list of enemies do. I consider this list to be the "List of enemies" counterpart, so removing this list would feel uneven. The description is vague, yes, but wouldn't enemies as well fall under a fairly vague definition? {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:34, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
:::Enemies: things that the heroes fight, something that can't be handed out all willy-nilly. My point is that everything in this list is already located somewhere else, and I'm... really not understanding your point with the "List of enemies" thing. I honestly don't see how the enemies are the counterpart to the allies (one encompasses an entire group, one's a subcategory of something that encompasses an entire group), so... where do the enemies and allies intersect? If anything, the allies are more comparable to bosses, except what is and isn't a boss is very distinctly made, and the enemies and bosses are in separate lists, whereas the allies are not.{{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::::But I can make the same argument that everything in the bosses list is covered in the characters or enemies list, except a few. I don't think it's a matter of how "unique" this list is, a.k.a. how much it intersects with other lists, but rather, a matter of sorting out elements. I view this list as a more specific version of both "list of characters" and "list of <s>enemies</s> species", which can be helpful for searches. Allies can be defined as simply "friendly characters", with "friendly" as "assisting in some way without harming". I don't think that's a hard definition to grasp. Sure, it overlaps a few times in some lists, but it doesn't mean this list is useless.
::::Even if this list happens be "List of characters minus the enemies" kind of list, as it seems to be suggested here I'd still argue for it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:52, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
:::::I'm still not seeing your point with the list of enemies thing. This is the only list that (intentionally) intersects with other lists, and I honestly fail to see how this list is "characters - enemies" because that is absolutely not what either the ally category of this list is for. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::::::Doesn't "enemies" intersect with "species", though? Hm, I'm not sure how I got to the part where I said it encompasses "list of enemies". I'm sure I meant "List of species". This list has elements from both "List of characters" and "List of species", but "List of enemies" have also elements from "List of characters" and "List of species", no? {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:08, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
:::::::...Kinda? The vast majority of the enemies are things like [[Fuzzbush]] and [[Fwoosh]], things that don't have a place elsewhere except in the species list... which also encompasses nearly every single enemy for entirely different reasons, but it also lists things like [[Glitz Pit Security]] that don't have a place elsewhere, and it's mostly for showing the relationship between subspecies and parent species and oh no I've gone cross-eyed. Basically, I have a lot of problems with the lists, and this is something that I've realized at this very moment. We need a third voice here, we're just shouting words at each other and getting absolutely nowhere. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
:::::::The examples you listed can be an analogy to the examples I've listed.
:::::::*Both species, Fuzzbush (enemy) and Bob-omb Buddy (ally), don't have a place anywhere else other than the species list. Glitz Pit Security are the neutral species, not an ally nor an enemy, so they would go in ''only'' the species list. I'm sure there are entities that overlap between friends, enemies, and neutral, but they would be listed multiple times anyhow.
:::::::The species list is an umbrella list for neutral, friendly, and hostile species, while "enemies" and "allies" narrow it down a little, don't they? Oh, the allies do have some characters as well, and "enemies" may have a few standalone characters, but most are usually reserved to "List of bosses". I don't know, I just view things in those kinds of terms... {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:35, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
:I've always thought of enemies as being the mooks you see roaming around on your way to the castle, like Goombas, Bloopers, Boos, and whatnot, and for the most part, that's what 90% of the list is for. It's not meant for listing literally everyone that's opposed the heroes so much as it is compiling a list of everything you can stomp on in the games (at least in my head). Seeing things like [[Iggy (film character)]] and [[Chun-Li]] on that list feels off to me. It's like having a graph that's a perfect straight line except for a single dot that skyrockets in the other direction; even if it's a legitimate point on your graph, you wonder if it's even worth including when it's so separated. That's kind of my problem with the allies: it's basically doing that, but with a bunch of different characters (and species, but mostly characters), to the point where lining up everyone on the list feels jarring. At this point, though, this is less of an objective look at the lists and more of my personal opinion. I really need to sort my thoughts out... {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::I've made a suggestion on your talk page about ''maybe'' ditching ''allies'', ''enemies'', and ''bosses'' lists and focusing on the organization on the superlists: ''characters'' and ''species''. And yeah, I think the same way when it comes to enemies. Besides, I wouldn't think Chun-Li qualifies. She's more "neutral", just a contestant Mario engages. There isn't a hardline definition for enemy, though, which is perhaps the core of the problem, but by focusing on just ''species'' and ''characters'', I think the problem won't be there. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:18, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@Freakworld: Uhm, I don't think pity votes are allowed... {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:24, 28 September 2014 (EDT)
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 ==Delete this article==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-9|keep}}
 I've honestly never liked the [[:Category:Allies|system of categorizing allies]] that's been in place. A character can be a considered an ally at the drop of a hat (which often includes [[Einstein|being kind of helpful]] [[Garson|to the heroes]] [[Gooma|at one point]] and [[Doctor Toadley's intern|being next]] [[Gabbro|to the heroes]] [[Elvin Parsley|at one point]], and more often than not they end up encompassing every supporting character that appears in a game. How that category should be dealt with is a problem for another time, but that really outlines why this page is pointless. The point of these major lists ([[List of games|games]], [[List of species|species]], [[List of items|items]], etc.) is so that we can have a convenient and coherent list of basically every single element. However, what's the point of having a list that cherry-picks a handful of characters from the [[List of characters|list of characters]]? It's retreading what doesn't need to be retread. I really don't see why a character that popped in once to help Mario is worthy of being separated-but-not-really into its own list. Everyone here is already listed on the list of characters, by the way, so it's not like it's unreasonable to have them there. The bottom line is, there's really no reason for this to be separate. Since everything here's already in the same condition on the larger list, simply deleting the list will work out.
@@ Line 17: / Line 16: @@
 #{{User|Ninelevendo}} Deleting this is like deleting [[List of bosses]]  and other related articles, and I wouldn't support that either. Per Mario.
 #{{User|Ghost Jam}} I generally agree that this page is one of many that should probably be looked at, but I don't know that I'm for out and out deletion. Reviewing the argument from both sides, I feel the "not delete" arguments are stronger and have displayed more reasons for keeping (and perhaps utilizing a clean-up tag) than blanket deleting.
-#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} Per all.
-#{{User|Magikrazy}} Per all.
-#{{User|The Mario Gamer}} Per all.
-#{{User|Ladies-Man1}} Pages like these are important after all.
 ===Comments===
 '''@Toadbriage5''': Can you elaborate as to why you want to see them? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
@@ Line 26: / Line 22: @@
 :"However, what's the point of having a list that cherry-picks a handful of characters from the [[List of characters|list of characters]]?"
-I wouldn't say this list is redundant with "Characters", as this list filters out the allies from the big general list. Besides, some allies, such as [[Bob-omb Buddy]] EDIT: (thought abruptly terminated) {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:38, 28 September 2014 (EDT)
+I wouldn't say this list is redundant with "Characters", as this list filters out the allies from the big general list. Besides, some allies, such as [[Bob-omb Buddy]]
 :All right, a select few of the already-select few are species. That's just reinforcing my point everything here's already elsewhere. Besides, why would you specifically need allies? In what situation would it be beneficial to have all of the friendly people separated and not just a part of the main collection? Also, why do allies get to be separate? What makes the very, very vague description of "possibly helped/was there at some point" worth making a whole list for? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
 ::I don't understand how it's a "select few"; I can make only so many examples at a time, and I don't understand how it reinforces your point. My point I'm making is that this list and the list of characters don't overlap to the point where it's unnecessary, while your point is that it's redundant with "List of characters". I think it's necessary to have allies because it organizes characters the same way the list of enemies do. I consider this list to be the "List of enemies" counterpart, so removing this list would feel uneven. The description is vague, yes, but wouldn't enemies as well fall under a fairly vague definition? {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:34, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
@@ Line 42: / Line 38: @@
 @Freakworld: Uhm, I don't think pity votes are allowed... {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:24, 28 September 2014 (EDT)
-== Grouping ==
-We should group the characters by different games, since the heroes are different depending on if it's Super Mario or Donkey Kong or WarioWare etc. It would also be easier to navigate, if you ask me...
-Also, why can't we edit the list?
-== Request for content addition ==
-[[Polterpup]] and [[Morty]] appeared as a friendly character in [[Luigi's Mansion 3]].  So I would like to add it to this page.—[[Special:Contributions/125.12.0.24|125.12.0.24]] 08:27, November 5, 2019 (EST)
-:I'll do that now, but you can make those edits yourself. [[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 09:22, November 5, 2019 (EST)
-== Monty Bros. ==
-Why are the Monty Bros. listed as allies? Yes, they were allies during the Underground Tunnel part that helped Bowser as his minions. But they became villains during the Fawful Express section later in the game since they joined Fawful and betrayed Bowser. So how should we categorize the Monty Bros.? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 02:37, December 10, 2021 (EST)
-== Brothership Allies ==
-Since M&L:Brothership has been released, it feels wrong to not include it, unless people are already working on it. Even if some allies still have unmade pages, this wiki could work on finishing this list. What does everyone think about this? [[User:Shy Guy the Masked|Shy Guy the Masked]] ([[User talk:Shy Guy the Masked|talk]]) 13:42, November 24, 2024 (UCT)
-:I'm working on it. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:15, November 24, 2024 (EST)