Editing Talk:Lakitu (character)

'''Note that there are two subjects that are being discussed in this talk page: the character in ''[[Mario Party Advance]]'' and the character in ''[[Mario Kart 7]]''. Due to the names of their articles, the discussions have ended up together.'''<br>

Is this even necessary? He's a minor character with a very minor cameo in the Mario & Luigi games (and the unreleased Mario Kart 7) and all this information is on the page for generic Lakitus! Oh, and if this must stay, what about the Lakitu in BiS? --{{User:Technickal/sig}}
:In BiS the red-shelled Lakitu was replaced with a standard green-shelled one. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 19:14, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I'm agreeing with the motion to delete this. The Mario & Luigi appearances are too short and generic to count for anything and being a PC in Mario Kart with a differently-coloured shell doesn' mean much if he still has a generic species name. Of course, if anyone disagre... --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] 19:54, 26 November 2011 (EST)

That's a silly reason. It's only concerned on the Red-shelled Lakitu, of course he is not the same as all the Lakitu species. I'm against the delete. You could've just change the infos of the Lakitu page.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 19:58, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I'm actually for its deletion. It's too minor a character in ML:PiT and ML:SS. And as Glowsquid said, the different colored shell doesn't make it any different from others. This is why Wiggler, though appearing in MK7 as well, doesn't have its own article for that appearance. --{{User:Gamefreak75/Sig}}

No difference? What makes you think that the Lakitu is actually the same as all the Lakitus? A red-shelled Lakitu who is now a racer and an ally of the Mario Bros.? And a green-shelled Lakitu who often appears as an enemy or plays the role of a Fishin' Lakitu in the ''Mario Kart'' series? Hm? Think about it. You can't say that as if a Lakitu could change his color just simply by painting it or something like that...Of course, he's a seperate character.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 20:04, 26 November 2011 (EST)

:In PiT you can't see the red shell because the Lakitu's back is turned anyway! Mario Kart 7 hasn't even been released anywhere yet, so we should wait on that. Just because the shell is a different color doesn't mean it's a separate character (even if the shell is naturally that color). Do we have separate pages for green and red-shelled [[Koopa Troopa]]s? (besides [[Red Shell|the]] [[Green Shell|shells]]?) {{User:Technickal/sig}}

:There are other normal Lakitus that aren't hostile to Mario (mostly in SMRPG) and shell colour doesn't mean anything - Green and Red (and blue, and yellow, and flashing...)-shelled Koopas don't have separate pages despite being more different (due to AI behaviours) from each-other than this Lakitu is from other Lakitus. You're going to need a stronger case. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] 20:15, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Listen Technickal, we are five days before the release of this game in Japan. Now is not the time being complaining about it. He ''is'' a seperate character. This article isn't about a species of red-shelled Lakitus. There were only ''one'' red-shelled Lakitu seen throught the series, this Lakitu. Don't compare him to Koopa Troopas because they are different, except that he's the same as Metal Mario.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 20:23, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Per GameFreak. It's too minor to have its own article. {{User:RandomYoshi/sig}} 21:07, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Per Glowsquid. {{User:Mario & Luigi/sig}}

It's five days early to be much more "'''Official'''" than minor. There lots of minor characters out there who got their own articles. Leave Lakitu out of this plz.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:18, 26 November 2011 (EST)
:I agree with all the calls for deletion it's two minor {{User|Raven Effect}}
::Why are you so impatient before the release of the game?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:22, 26 November 2011 (EST)
:::Also there is no confrimation that this Lakitu is the same one in all 3 games it could just be some random lakitu with a red shell {{User|Raven Effect}}
It may could be both pal, but no. You can't say it's random since there were only one red-shelled Lakitu. It's the same for Yoshi, considering some Green Yoshis, even Super Mario Sunshine's, to be ''him''. And DON'T erase this article.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:33, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I am also all for deleting this article. Per all except Ludwig [[User:Jazama|Jazama]] 22:39, 26 November 2011 (EST)

I don't think you are...You just don't like me. Tell me, why can't you at least wait for five days? Mario Kart 7 will be released soon. It's useless to delete or want to delete it.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:41, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Are you blind nobody wants to delete the article because the games not out yet {{User|Raven Effect}}

No. Because Lakitu's appearance will be more official in Mario Kart 7 and you keep saying that he's a minor character, or probably that he makes a minor appearance in the ''Mario & Luigi'' series. Are you blind that Mario Kart7's gonna be released in Japan in December 1, 2011?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:44, 26 November 2011 (EST)
:That has nothing with my argument my argument is that there is no difference between this lakitu and a regular lakitu except the shell color and we don't have articles on red shelled koopa troopas nor do we have articles on the koopa troopas that appear in Mario Kart {{User|Raven Effect}}

There we go again...I just told them before you, '''''there is only 1 red-shelled Lakitu''''', the character, that is. And the green-shelled Lakitu often appears as a Fishin' Lakitu in the ''Mario Kart'' series. Where else have you seen a red-shelled Lakitu besides ''Mario Kart 7'' and the ''Mario & Luigi'' series anyway? No where else than these games dude. Maybe he acts the same, but the difference is his appearance and him being an ally of the Mario Bros.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:50, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Prove that they are the same characters. Prove that they aren't just a generic Lakitu with a red shell {{User|Raven Effect}}

(Do I really have to? *facepalm) Just ''1'' red-shelled Lakitu, not two or plus. We haven't seen another red-shelled Lakitu besides this Lakitu. If you are imagining or seen another one, tell me. Have you ever seen a green-shelled Lakitu who races in the ''Mario Kart'' series? He's not just a Lakitu, it shows him to be different. He doesn't have a clould when he drives his kart.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 23:00, 26 November 2011 (EST)

==Delete This Page==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|red|oppose 17-21}}
As per the title. Seeing the argument above, how about we make an official proprosal.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Jazama}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 11, 2011 23:59 GMT.

===Support===
#{{User|Jazama}} Like what everybody said, this "character" is too minor for his own article.
#{{User|Raven Effect}} Per all the arguments given to delete this article
#{{User|Glowsquid}} - per my reasoning above.
#{{User|RandomYoshi}} — per me in the comments above this TPP.
#{{User|Mario & Luigi}} Per Glowsquid's reasoning.
#{{User|Bop1996}} Per Glowsquid.
#{{User|Nintendo64Fan}}Per Glowsquid.
#{{User|Gamefreak75}} Per my reasoning and Glowsquid's reasoning.
#{{User|MarioMaster720}} Per Glowsquid.
#{{User|Donaldthescotishtwin}} Lakitu is Lakitu, only one article is needed.
#{{User|MarioMaster2011}} There are many minor characters on this wiki, but the Lakitu character has way too minor of a role.
#{{User|Castle Toad}} Too minor, since there's no proof that this driver is the same Lakitu from M&L games (The red shell is not proof)
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Shell color isn't really enough to base it on to call this Lakitu a character. Also, the belief that the Lakitu(s) from both games is/are the same one(s). Per all. Oh, and the picture below definitely shows two red shelled Lakitus, so, therefore, there must be more than one.
#{{User|IGGY7735}} - just a generic Lakitu
#{{User|Technickal}} Per all.
#{{User|Knife}} &ndash; I'm opposing simply because of inconsistency issues. Lakitu is in the same category as other playable species like [[Boo]], [[Blooper]], [[Hammer Bro.]], and [[Shy Guy]], none of which have their own character articles. What makes this one unique, a red shell? It's kind of silly to make an exception just because of one cosmetic difference. That ML series has no effect on the argument since there is no proof that both characters are the same (not to mention there were two red shell Lakitus as some point: see below image)
#{{User|Dhock}} Per what Knife said. I was basically gonna say that, but he said it better.

===Oppose=== 
#{{User|Prince Ludwig}} What the heck do you mean by "refuses to see sense", it's one of these supporters for deletion. It's useless to wait until December 2, 2011, since Mario Kart 7's gonna be released in Japan in December 1, within five days.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Prince Ludwig. We have many minor character articles. What makes this one so different?
#{{User|King Booranha}} Per Prince ludwig. He has appeard several times throughout the Mario series, '''''and''''' he is playable in Mario Kart 7. That should be a good enough reason. It doesn't matter if it's a minor character or not.
#{{User|Toad85}} If we delete this, we might as well delete every other one-off or extremely minor character we have an article for.  Per all.
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} I agree with Prince Ludwig, except for that Mario & Luigi series Lakitu, he can be like the one in Mario Party Advanced. In Mario Kart 7 he '''''is''''' a different character.
#{{User|M&SG}} - We have separate articles for the character, Yoshi, along with the character, Toad.  The red-shelled Lakitu is pretty much no different, especially if the guy gets used again.
#{{User|New Super Yoshi}} This is about the one with the Red shell. Per all.
#{{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} - Listen, Lakitu has his own page just like many other characters. You don't see the Yellow and Blue Toad's pages up for deletion. I don't see any of characters like [[Corporal Paraplonk]] or [[Master Crash]] being considered for deletion either. Just because they aren't named doesn't mean "oh they don't deserve a page, I hate you for not supporting its deletion."
#{{User|FourPaperHeroes}} - Per this, per that, per all.
#{{User|Magikrazy51}} Deleting an article for a character just because he's a show-up-onceler of a certain species is uncalled for. What about all the show-up-onceler Toads in Paper Mario? They're not even playable! Per everyone. Together, we can end show-up-onceler discrimination.
#{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}} I support the protection of red-shelled playable lakitus.
#{{User|Fire-Luigi}} Per Prince Ludwig.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Hideki Konno at 2:22-2:35 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpm_rkfAoBw here].
#{{User|Firebreath22k}} Per everyone!
#{{User|Ultra Koopa}} He's a character, highlighted between other Lakitus and not a simple one.
#{{User|ThePremiumYoshi}} Per everyone, especially Ultra Koopa. He's not a simple Lakitu, and since he's playable, we should keep his article!
#{{User|Phoenixflare7}}- Red Shelled Lakitu is a character, and even if he is a minor one he deserves a page.
#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per all.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Of course not. He's a racer on his own in Mario Kart 7, for pete sake!
#{{User|Mr.C}} Per all, although I do think the Superstar Saga part should be removed.
#{{User|Toad'ShyGuy}} We aslo have articles for Yoshi, Toad, Birdo ect, don't we? This is technically the same thing: One main character of a whole large group of its species. Humans are species too. We have even articles for those minor humans of the golf series.
#{{User|KoopaKiller13}} I'm changing my mind and opposing per (almost) all. Although, if this side wins, I'd like to request that we add separate articles about all playable enemies. I'm not saying to put them as characters, just playable, starting with this article.

===Comments===
[[File:2ndFawfulMLSS.jpg|thumb|right|'''TWO''' is better than one.]]
I just wanted to point out that you can see TWO red-shelled Lakitus in the scene before battling Fawful for the second time. This means that there is more than one red-shelled Lakitu. And it seems like generic Lakitus in the game have red shells. <s>As for PiT, the back is turned so you can't see the color of the shell, so whether this is the red Lakitu or not is unknown.</s> And in MK7, I pointed that out in my support vote. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 18:01, 27 November 2011 (EST)

:Huh? Even if that's true, the article is about the character, not the actual red-shelled Lakitu species. There had been Green Yoshis too, ya know...But to be sure, can you show it to me?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 18:47, 27 November 2011 (EST)

::Thanks...But I can't see the red shells well...They look magenta to me.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 18:48, 27 November 2011 (EST)

::If a red shelled Lakitu gets it's own page than why doesnt this Lakitu get it's own page [[File: CloudBurst.jpg|thumb|left|Lakitu in "Cloud Burst".]] It has a different color shell but does it deserve its own page no because there are no special things about this lakitu just like how there are no special characteristics with this red shelled one other than a red shell {{User|Raven Effect}}

Go make this page then. But make sure that he's good enough to have his character article, and plus we don't know his name. Don't take it on my article, it's not like it delete it or something like that. This article is about the red-shelled Lakitu who is affiliated with Mario and is now a racer.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 19:03, 27 November 2011 (EST)
:Using your logic bowser is now Mario's ally cause he's a racer and my example was to show that having a different color shell is not a big enough difference to justify creating a seperate page also you can't prove that the Red Shelled Lakitu from Superstar saga is the same as the one from Mario Kart 7 {{User|Raven Effect}}
:::That's what I was trying to do with the two Lakitus comment. Now that we know there is more than one red shelled Lakitu, we don't know if this is supposed to be the same guy or not. As for the magenta-ish shells, blame the low-quality screenshot. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 19:12, 27 November 2011 (EST)

@Raven Effect: Huh? What I meant is that this Lakitu was an ally of Mario in ''Superstar Saga'' and is now a racer in Mario Kart 7. Bowser is different from Lakitu, but Lakitu would be the same as Yoshi and Donkey Kong if you consider him a different character than his other game appearance ('cause Yoshi is not the same Yoshi who toke care of the babies but is the Baby Yoshi from YIDS, Donkey Kong's article is about him and his younger grandfather who is known as Donkey Kong too). Whether he is or isn't the same, sorry, this article is still concerned about the red-shelled Lakitu character.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 19:18, 27 November 2011 (EST)

Yes, Yoshi from Yoshi's Island is the character Yoshi according to MP2's manual. [[User:Mario &amp; Luigi|Mario &amp; Luigi]]

:We're getting off topic here. Sigh... [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 20:08, 27 November 2011 (EST)

No, I'm not. If Yoshi in YI and Yoshi in MP, SMW, and other games are merged, so should these. [[User:Mario &amp; Luigi|Mario &amp; Luigi]]
::'''@Mario & Luigi''': In thought, yes, but how you are stating it, that would be inconsistent. That is the main reason why we have [[Yoshi (character)]] and [[Yoshi (species)]]. The Yoshi in YI, MP, SMW, and other games would simply merge to the character article. Games that include multiple yoshis would simply file into the species page. That lakitu we are talking about is a specific character, and not the species as a whole. It appearing in the M&L series and Mario Kart 7 should filter here, while the enemy that we see in all the other games should be found in the main species page. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}

:::BMB, about your oppose vote; Lakitu only makes a minor cameo in M&L in the level up screen. The Lakitu in MK7 is just a generic lakitu, like [[Koopa Troopa]] or [[Wiggler]]. The only difference is the shell, it's just recolored to distinguish him from the Fishin' Lakitu referee. Master Crash and Corporal Paraplonk play a bigger role than that. They are actually ''interacting'' with Mario and Luigi in-game. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 16:26, 28 November 2011 (EST)
::::@Tech: Yes, the Lakitu makes a minor cameo in M&L series. However, the information about the games - mostly Mario Kart 7 - prove that it is decent information to be its own article. Not only that, but the fact that a specific Lakitu appears as well as Lakitus holding the starting clock proves something. Just because Lakitu doesn't have a generic name, that doesn't mean that he should have a page. I haven't seen Toad (character) or Yoshi (character) have a specific name. With the logic that all you supporters are giving, Toad, Yoshi, and many others should be nominated for deletion. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}

The thing is, if we keep this page, will we have to make a page for the Wiggler in Mario Power Tennis, Mario Super Sluggers and Mario Kart 7? In those games, the Wiggler has gloves rather than shoes on his frontmost legs. This is so he can hold a racket or a bat or whatever else he needs to do. This distinguishes him from other Wigglers. Same case, different enemy. {{User|Magikrazy51}}
:Exactly Magikrazy51. Any character that is specifically different from the rest of its species will be eligible to be created. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}

I'm O.K with the deletion of Lakitu, but I think we should bring him back once Mario Kart 7 is realased in all regions. If not, then we should just merge him with the Lakitu (species) page in the Mario Kart (series) section--[[User:MarioMaster2011|MarioMaster2011]] 19:20, 30 November 2011 (EST)MarioMaster2011

:No, that's silly. 'Cause that's the same as deleting him. It's already okay once ''Mario Kart 7'' is released in ''one'' region, I thought I already told you. Deleting him because ''Mario Kart 7'' is not released in all regions is already usless.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 23:05, 30 November 2011 (EST)

::It's alright. I've changed my mind anyway (See support), so I'm not Netural anymore. Besides, I didn't view any of your comments yet. Anyways, Lakitushould be deleted. Yes there is a lot of minor characters on this wiki, but this guy hardly even appears in M&L:SS and he's a Fishin' Lakitu anyway, like you said. In Mario Kart 7, however he is a playable character, but Nintendo probably put him in there as a replacement for the real Lakitu, because he already counts 3,2,1...Go! at the begining of each race. --[[User:MarioMaster2011|MarioMaster2011]] 11:59, 2 December 2011 (EST)
:::Stating that "oh...he's too minor," is missing the big picture on this wiki. Many characters - and enemies - have appeared in one, maybe two games. [[Queen Bee]], another character, has only appeared in the Super Mario Galaxy games and Mario Kart 7. Multiple enemies that appear in the Paper Mario games have never been seen outside them. All of them have pages of their own; with the enemies, they could also be considered eligible to be merged with their main species. Just note that this Lakitu Character has also appeared in the other Mario Kart games, as stated by the video that Mario4Ever posted in his comment. So...arguing that he is too minor is basically a matter of opinion and not factual information. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}

Don't forget there is already a green-shelled [[Fishin' Lakitu]]. Despite that, it's impossible for Lakitu to be the same Fishin' Lakitu since he's red-shelled, like Metal Mario is supposed to be a seperate character from the alternate form since ''Super Smash Bros.'' and he's sometimes protrayed as ''Mario'' himself. Now he's no more minor as you think he is you supporters for deletion and ''Mario Kart 7'' has already been released.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 01:34, 3 December 2011 (EST)

Might I add something on this discussion? We have an article for many of the minor Toads in the Paper Mario series who play an even more minor role in the game. This Lakitu on the other hand, is a playable character and plays a slightly bigger role than the Toads of PM. And this Lakitu is clearly more different than the other Lakitu that also appears in the game in terms of the role they play. The green shelled one picks up the racer after he/she falls and starts a race while the red shell one actually races. Including the info on Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, there is enough information for it's own page. {{User|Tails777}}

@Knife: Instead of being jealous, why won't you make the articles instead of going against my article? It's not like it delete them, sent the admins to delete these articles or prevent users making articles.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 16:59, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Why are you accusing me of jealous? Also, no one can claim ownership of any article. I don't understand your second sentence (actually I don't understand your whole comment, you may have to clarify it a little more).--{{User|Knife}} 17:17, 8 December 2011 (EST)

:No one but ''I'', you're right... But I'm not bossing around, truth is, I don't want my article to be deleted or messed up in the way I obviously don't expect.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:21, 8 December 2011 (EST)

::Nearly '''anyone''' can change articles on a wiki, Prince Ludwig. That's what it's for. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 20:34, 8 December 2011 (EST)

If this article stays, there will be a huge inconsistency in species/character articles. As I mentioned above, specie character generally don't have their own articles. So if this proposal fails, we at least need to consider splitting those articles otherwise our character species consistency is a mess.--{{User|Knife}} 14:08, 10 December 2011 (EST)

==Lakitu in Superstar sage==

There is absolutely no evidence that even remotely suggests that they are the same the only link they have is a red shell and that means nothing because generic lakitus have red shells to {{User|Raven Effect}}

:...If Lakitu has a red-shell, it ''does'' mean something. What do you mean "mean nothing"?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 16:47, 8 December 2011 (EST)
::It means nothing because other Lakitus have red shells thus disproving that these two are the same because they have red shells {{User|Raven Effect}}
:::It's also because of that...''literally''. Yoshi is the same Green Yoshi who's the best friend of Mario because he is a Green Yoshi like other Green Yoshis. Similar, huh? It's also because the red-shelled Lakitu is an ally and no more a Fishin' Lakitu, that's for sure.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:12, 8 December 2011 (EST)
::::Hey little known fact all that is confirmed in the various guide books and bios of the various mario games while this is not {{User|Raven Effect}}
You think I didn't know that? I said it's similar; since one of you consider Red-shelled Lakitu as a species and a different character from ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga''.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:16, 8 December 2011 (EST)
:::::So that whole Yoshi thing has no relevance to this article because unlike this article their is confirmation that the Yoshi's are the same {{User|Raven Effect}}
There was a Star child Yoshi and a Green Yoshi who toke care of the Star Children. Like Yoshi and Donkey Kong, Lakitu's character article must be about the Red-shelled Lakitu from ''Mario & Luigi'' and ''Mario Kart'', which are the same character.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:24, 8 December 2011 (EST)
:So your argument is that because the Lakitu in Superstar Saga has a red shell and the one in Mario Kart 7 has a red shell than they must be the same A.K.A Speculation {{User|Raven Effect}}
Lakitu's Red-shell means nothing A.K.A Speculation. Right back at ya.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:32, 8 December 2011 (EST)
:No i can prove it means nothing there are other Lakitus with Red shells including a picture that shows two at the same time so unless you are willing to argue that all Red Shelled Lakitus are the same person your argument means nothing {{User|Raven Effect}}

Hey guys, it's clear you're not getting anywhere arguing back and forth. I suggest one of you make a TPP to settle this issue instead of wasting your time arguing when neither will change their minds. Although you might want to wait until the proposal above is finished, which could change things.--{{User|Knife}} 17:35, 8 December 2011 (EST)

'Aight. Okay.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:37, 8 December 2011 (EST)
:I agree also, on a side note to Raven Effect, I think a similar TPP action should be done for Rocky Wrench. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 17:38, 8 December 2011 (EST)


===Remove Superstar Saga information===
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|green|support 14-0}}
Well, let's see who else thinks the SS and MK7 red Lakitus are the same guy or not. (This can be deleted if the article ends up being deleted.)

'''Proposer''': {{User|Technickal}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 22, 2011, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Technickal}} Per Raven Effect's above comment
#{{User|Raven Effect}} Their is no evidence to suggest that they are the same and having a red shell =/= being the same character
#{{User|Mariomario64}} &ndash; Per above.
#{{User|RandomYoshi}} — Per Raven Effect. Just becuase that Lakitu has a red shell doesn't mean that it indeed ''is'' this Lakitu(who we aren't sure about if it's a separate character either...).
#{{User|Toad'ShyGuy}} It's just too typical. Per everyone above.
#{{User|ThePremiumYoshi}} - It's rather improbable these two Lakitus are the same. Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} After a debate with Raven Effect, I now reluctantly agree. Per all.
#{{User|Dhock}} There's no proof that they're the same character, as a matter of fact I highly doubt they are.
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} That is just a normal one but with a red shell. Also see my opposing vote in the TPP above.
#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} Per above
#{{User|New Super Yoshi}}Per all.
#{{User|16-Volt}}Nowhere in the game or game guides does it say that this lakitu is THE Lakitu. Also, like RandomYoshi said, we still aren't sure if this "lakitu" is a single character, since all fishin lakitus in SMW have red shells and at least 2 red shelled lakitus appeared in the M&L:SS. per all
#{{User|Toad85}} Now ''this'' I can get behind.
#{{User|Mr.C}} Although the Lakitu in SS has a red shell, there is a slim probability that they are one and the same. Besides, there are two of those Lakitus, so that makes the probability even lower. In a nutshell, per all.

====Oppose====

====Comments====
Sorry to bother you Technickal, but you need to add this proposal to the [[MarioWiki:Proposals#List_of_Talk_Page_Proposals|list]]. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 20:04, 8 December 2011 (EST)
:Four Paper Heroes, what exactly should be done with [[Rocky Wrench]]? [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 20:28, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Probably mentioned before, but we don't know if they are the same or not. But since they are both red shelled Lakitu's, they may as well stay in the same article. And no we shouldn't remove the Superstar Saga info because it is on a red shell Lakitu who give the bonus for the Bros, that should be notable enough (despite being a small role). {{User|Tails777}}
:But their are other Lakitus with red shells and saying that one Lakitu who has a red shell is the same as another Lakitu with a red shell is speculation {{User|Raven Effect}}
::This should have waited until the above TPP was settled. The article's deletion still rides, and if it does end up being deleted, then this TPP will serve no purpose whatsoever. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}
:::Chill out BMB, this can easily be deleted. [[User:Technickal|Technickal]] 20:27, 8 December 2011 (EST)
'''@Raven Effect''' Others eh? Aside from the 2 we have already mentioned (MK7, and M&L:SS) what other ones are there? {{User|Tails777}}
:These ones that are up above in the comments section of the last proposal you know the ones with the red shells http://www.mariowiki.com/File:2ndFawfulMLSS.jpg {{User|Raven Effect}}
::O.K. I'll admit you have me pinned on this one, but I still don't support deleting the article or the section of information. This Lakitu to me is a notable Lakitu (since it is clearly different from the green Lakitu) and should have it's own article. {{User|Tails777}}
:::But the question is can you prove that these two Lakitus are the same {{User|Raven Effect}}
::::No I can't, but since they are both red shelled Lakitus, they should stay on the same page (regardless of if they are the same or not.) {{User|Tails777}}
:::::So even though this is an article on a specific character it's ok to include information on another character because it has a red shell A.K.A implying they are the same A.K.A speculation {{User|Raven Effect}}
::::::Fine, you got me. You are right about it being speculation and I know (I think) that we don't include speculation on articles. {{User|Tails777}}
Geez...you actually gave up.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 17:14, 10 December 2011 (EST)
:Yes cause I couldn't continue to argue without a reason. He had me to the point I couldn't say anything in defense. {{User|Tails777}}
We should probably just mention the red-shelled Lakitu from M&L Superstar Saga in the trivia section, they are most likely not the same but it is worth a little noting. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 19:50, 10 December 2011 (EST)
Maybe, since they also haven't prove that he's a seperate character too. But I need to say this; users shouldn't write "it is unknown whether he is the same character or not."--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:47, 13 December 2011 (EST)

:Excuse me but these two Red-Shelled Lakitus who are on '''Fawful's "side"''' are Lakitu Bros. while the character played the role of a [[Fishin' Lakitu]] before ''Mario Kart 7''.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 19:14, 19 December 2011 (EST)
::How does that prove that the Lakitu in SS is the same as in Mario Kart 7 {{User|Raven Effect}}
I just said that to increase the chances to believe that Lakitu in SS is the same as in Mario Kart 7.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 19:25, 19 December 2011 (EST)

==Question==
Now that we have classified this Lakitu as a separate character, should we do the same for the other species drivers (Koopa, Wiggler, Shy Guy)?

-IGGY7735
:No {{User|Raven Effect}}
...You just do as you wish.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:38, 13 December 2011 (EST)

No we have a policy against making those articles {{User|Raven Effect}}

What does the policy says? I haven't heard about this.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 22:43, 13 December 2011 (EST)
:One of the admins mentioned it in the comments section of the proposal {{User|Raven Effect}}

Well, my opinion isn't exactly more binding than your opinions when it comes to wiki matters. It's not a policy to not create those articles, but it is a consistency, which is a little different. If there was a policy in place for dealing with species characters, the TPP wouldn't have been valid. Now that we have decided that Lakitu deserves an article, we may have to re-evaluate whether those other species characters (not just drivers) deserve articles as well. Apparently, the only criteria separating the Lakitu character from the other species article was that it has a distinct appearance from other Lakitus and it appeared in previous ''Mario Kart'' installments as a Fishin' Lakitu. A lot of the opposers also opposed on the basis that we have articles for Birdo, Yoshi, and Toad, but IMO those comparisons are invalid. Birdo is given an article because he/she was the single boss of SMB2 and has had a role as mini-boss in the M&L series. Toad has an article because he is a recurring character and had his own protagonist role in ''Wario's Woods''. Yoshi... do I even have to explain Yoshi? If those characters appeared only in sports games, would they still have an article? Now that we've decided that Lakitu is worthy of a separate article we have to re-evaluate what criteria we should use when deciding to create species character articles.--{{User|Knife}} 15:01, 15 December 2011 (EST)

This is a good point. What IS the criteria for what species get character pages and what don't? Since it seems the Superstar Saga information is going to get deleted, this article exists solely for it's appearance in Mario Kart 7. The only thing that differentiates this article and an article on Koopa Troopa's appearances in sports games, is that this lakitu looks different from most other lakitus (Even though red shelled lakitus have appeared as a species prior to this). So is that the criteria? In order for a species in a sport/kart game to have an article as a character of it's own, it needs to look a bit different from the majority of members in it's species? What about the different colored players in the baseball series, like the yellow, blue, or green shy guys? Do they count? Why shouldn't they, they're oddly colored. If we want to maintain consistency, then what should we do about all those other pages? What exactly IS the policy on this? [[User:Dhock|Dhock]]

== Should this page be renamed? ==

I don't know about anybody else, but I, personally, think this page should be renamed to "Lakitu (character)" or "Lakitu (red-shelled)", as the character is no longer exclusive to just Mario Kart 7. I thought about "Lakitu (Mario Kart)", but there is also the green-shelled Lakitu, so that name doesn't exactly work. I would create a talk page proposal, but I kind of want an idea of what people think before that is made so I'm not the only person supporting the change. <big>'''{{color|blue|-}}[[User:Skittles|{{color|red|Sk}}]][[User talk:Skittles|{{color|darkorange|it}}]][[Special:Random|{{color|green|tl}}]][[Special:MyPage|{{color|purple|es}}]]'''</big>
:I support too. Just move to "Lakitu (character)". It's actually supposed to be within policy to name game modifiers to stuff like (character) anyway unless otherwise. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 16:21, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
::I agree as well, but make sure more people agree before any of us makes such a move. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:23, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
:::Supporting. {{User|Yoshi876}}
::::Agreed, makes more sense.--{{User:Dashbot/sig}} 16:25, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
:::::I'm for this, it's more informative anyway. {{User|Icemario}}
::::::Ok, now that an informal consensus has been reached, who should move the page? {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:30, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
:::::::Waiiit, the normal [[Lakitu]] appeared as a normal character in several games (SM64, MK series, and several other games), wouldn't the "(character)" identifier look sorta confusing. Maybe "(playable character)"?--{{User:Dashbot/sig}} 17:26, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
::::::::That's kinda like saying Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy appearing as normal characters in Mario Kart though {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:27, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
::::::::Still, I feel "character" was not the best choice.--{{User:Dashbot/sig}} 17:28, 4 April 2014 (EDT)
:::::::::Can you come up with something better? I think "character" already implies that this one is playable. Kind of how we got [[Metal Mario (character)]]. {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:04, 6 April 2014 (EDT)

== Not convinced. ==

I don't approve of this article's existence. Here are some arguments in favor of keeping the article that I rebutted:

*This Lakitu is playable and he wears a red shell; therefore, he is his own character.
A small distinction, plus the playable title, does not create a playable character article. This is the only valid argument, that this Lakitu has a distinction. I don't think it's a very strong argument by itself, though. For instance, maybe if he got his own name or if his glasses are cracked, he can qualify as his own character?

But even then, why doesn't the playable Wiggler in Mario Kart 7 has its own article? First, it has only four segments and two pairs of arms. Normally, Wigglers have five segments and one pair of arms (Power Tennis; Super Sluggers) or no arms (every other Wiggler). I suppose the change was applied so it can fit on its kart? Either way, it's a cosmetic distinction, just like that red-colored shell.

*Then why do Blue Toad and Yellow Toad have their own articles? Why do Yoshi and Toad have their own articles?
They're notable characters playing notable roles in notable games. You know, the "mainstream" games. Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are also given more roles, being hosts of Mario Party, being in outer space, and continuing to be playable alongside Mario and Luigi. This particular Lakitu is a racer and doesn't do really anything else.

It has also been established for a very long time that Yoshi and Toad are their own characters. Yoshi has ''Super Mario World'' and Toad has ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', not to mention, the plethora of comic books and television series that depict them as their own character.

{{User:Mario/sig}} 23:04, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

==Merge this to [[Lakitu]]==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|6-0|merge}}
This article's existence has bothered me for some time so I decided to take action against it once and for all.

First of all, check the above header. My sister has come up with great arguments against this article's existence. Another that it's ''highly'' inconsistent with what should be classified as his own character and what not. And finally, mulitple bios from the Prima guide and Nintendo's bios suggest that this Lakitu is indeed the same character who held races in the past, barring the inconsistent shell color. All in all, I think this should get merged with Lakitu's article.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Baby Luigi}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 17, 2014, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per everything my twin sister said in the above header
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Baby Luigi and Mario
#{{User|Mario}}
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per all.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} Per all.

===Oppose===
===Comments===

==Merge this page with [[Lakitu]]==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-6|don't merge}}
First of all, [[Lakitu (Mario Party Advance)|this Lakitu]] is the same character in this as he is with Lakitu. I believe it should get it's own section in the Lakitu page instead of having it's own article that is really the same character. Even if this Lakitu is a little different in this game, IT IS THE SAME CHARACTER, as I have said. I really ran out of ideas to say, but I think it is the best idea to get it merged.

'''Proposer''': {{User|PowerKamek}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 14, 2015, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|PowerKamek}} Per my proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Time Turner}} Same appearance and same name does not equal the same entity, as it has been proven in the past with [[Gritty Goomba]]. The Lakitu that is present in Mario Party Advance, alongside ''all'' of the other MPA characters, have distinct dialog, distinct quests, distinct rewards, distinct personalities, distinct characteristics, and so on and so forth. They have all of the makings of being unique characters; the only difference is the name and the appearance. After all, that's why [[Akiki]], [[Coach (Mario Party Advance)|Coach]], [[Goombetty]], [[Goombob]], [[Hulu]], and so on all have articles, right? Despite the game treating them the same as the rest of the other characters, they have unique names and unique appearances (and even that's contrived), so only they should have articles, right? From where I'm standing, that's not how it works at all, especially taking into consideration [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs]], which states that the wiki "encourages making articles on offically named Minor NPCs"; even if the names aren't distinct, the characters are still named "[[Amp (character)|Amp]]" and "[[Thwomp (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)|Thwomp]]" and "Lakitu" and so on. If Coach gets an article, so does [[Cheep Cheep (character)|Cheep Cheep]], if Goombob gets an article, so does [[Goomba (character)|Goomba]], and if all of the other characters have articles (I should point out at this point that there's no way this proposal's going to pass if it only covers one character without covering everyone else that I've mentioned), so does Lakitu. Also, what are you talking about when you say that Lakitu's "the same character". The same character as what? The "character" in Mario Kart 7 which has already been merged for having no distinct characteristics (on this ''very'' talk page)? The actual Lakitu species article even though it's meant for covering the species and not all of its offshoots? Even if the MK7 character hadn't been merged, that wouldn't suddenly make it the same Lakitu that appeared in MPA. You're going to really have to elaborate on that. So, I'm going to always argue for keeping this article and all of the ones like it.
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per Time Turner.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - per Time Turner, including that the title should be "Lakitu (character)", as per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining the identifier|SMW:Naming]]: "''If the same type of thing shares the same name across multiple games, use each game title as the identifiers''", and if only one thing and one game is involved, use "''What type of thing it is (e.g. [...] character)''".
#{{User|Boo4761}} Per Time Turner
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per Time Turner.
#{{User|RandomYoshi}} &ndash; Per all.

===Comments===
It just really bothers me looking at articles that are the same character (Lakitu). The proposal Baby Luigi had earlier in time won and it was merged, and I have no idea why the heck this article isn't on the Lakitu article. Time Turner, there is a bit of confusion here, Lakitu is ALWAYS the same character no matter what game he is on. I just don't know why users have to always disagree with me on everything. If that's the case, I'm better off leaving. I try helping, making some articles, and making (some) useful proposals like this. I'm just kinda sad that some people are rude to me, like [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:PowerKamek/Archive_2&diff=prev&oldid=1832332 here] and [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki%3ASandbox&diff=1841404&oldid=1841377 here]. I really want to stay on this wiki and help. I'm very sorry and I didn't mean to make anyone mad. Please don't get mad at me. {{User:PowerKamek/sig}} 23:37, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:PowerKamek, people like Torey (in that link) does not represent the MarioWiki community. As for Koopinator (in the other link), I have no idea how he managed to say that you're "very mean" and engage in edit wars and didn't get a warning over that. In this proposal, however, we are not hostile to you. We are simply disagreeing with your viewpoints. {{unsigned|Bazooka Mario}}
::Hey hey hey hey, slow down. First of all, one or two users being jerks towards you is absolutely no reason to be discouraged. If someone starts insulting you, tell an admin immediately, because nobody has any right to treat you like that. Secondly, it is extremely important that you realize that not everyone's going to agree with you, but that does not mean that this is because of how they think of you. I've made tons of proposals in the past that have completely failed, and there are definitely still a few that I think should have passed. However, the community decided that some of the decisions I proposed would not go through, not because of a personal vendetta, but because they absolutely believed that those decisions were not to the wiki's benefit. That's why we have proposals; it's not a shouting match between people, it's a discussion between a community. If you make a proposal that doesn't pass, don't take it personally. At the very best, you should recognize the points made by the people who opposed it, decide to what extent you agree with them, and compromise from there. Nobody is mad at you, and nobody will ''ever'' be mad at you, for trying your hardest to be a part of the wiki. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
Thank you both. You are really good friends and you made me feel a lot better. I honestly don't mind if you guys opposed any of my proposals, I just thought you were mad at me by what you typed up in the oppose section. I am really shy and I can't think of anything else to say but what I said on the proposal. I am really a person who really has a hard time writing a whole big paragragh about something. But right now, I can elaborate more. Lakitu is the same character no matter what game he's in and this article really confuses me why it isn't merged with Lakitu. Mario Party Advance is a game right? I believe this article is better off being merged with Lakitu, since he is the same character as [[Lakitu]]. I dunno if Lakitu is a species, but I know he is a character in the Mario series. Thanks both of you for being a good friend. {{User:PowerKamek/sig}} 00:13, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:Nothing taken. And nah, disagreement doesn't mean we're mad. It's difficult to take criticism and accept a loss of your proposal, but consider that as an opportunity to gain experience. But, criticism is just criticism. Nothing personal or aggressive. We wouldn't advance in civilization without criticism. Anyhow, saying that "the Lakitu is the same individual in every game you see him" is a speculative statement. When we create an article on Lakitu, we create it on the species. We don't know if it's the same Lakitu or not since you see multiple Lakitus [[:File:4-5nsmbwii.png|in natural settings]] (e.g. not recolor multiplayer constructs like the [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Mario (species)|Mario species]] <s>or Pink Donkey Kong Jr.</s>). I'm not sure if the "individual dialogue and personalities" is the best argument to keep characters split due to how the majority of enemies don't have a distinct name or design. Either way, I'd avocado rather to rename the modifiers in the Mario Party Advance character articles from (character) to (Mario Party Advance). Seems clearer to me. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:56, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
::On their own, characters having unique dialog and personalities aren't enough for an article, but the culmination of all of the elements that I listed is what makes the MPA characters worthy of articles. For the move thing, [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Penguin_(character)&action=history I just followed Steve's precedent] (this was made alongside a slew of other moves that changed the identifier from the game title to what the subject literally is), and there ''are'' generic Goombas/Koopas/etc. that appear in MPA, so I'd argue that the other identifier isn't clearer. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
:::I just saw it as a broader thing, especially when it comes to searches. Typing Koopa Troopa (character) doesn't immediately convey to the reader that it's the NPC from Mario Party Advance. I think using (Mario Party Advance) might be more precise about the character in question, since Koopas and Shy Guys and whatso have appeared as playable characters. All in all, despite the naming guidelines, "Koopa Troopa (character)" seems a bit misleading. Or, maybe we should do Koopa Troopa (Mario Party Advance character)? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:32, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Bazooka Mario. If we do use Koopa Troopa (character), well, character in what game? I think we should do something like Koopa Troopa (Mario Party Advance character), like Bazooka Mario said, so there won't be confusion. So shold we just rename this to "Lakitu (Mario Party Advance character)"? {{User:PowerKamek/sig}} 18:56, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
::No. Either name it "Lakitu (character)" or leave it as "Lakitu (Mario Party Advance)". [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining_the_identifier|As MW:Naming also outlines]], things should only be called "name (game thing)" if there's both multiple games and multiple types of things involved, otherwise just use or the other. Identifiers should be as simple and straightforward as possible. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:21, 11 August 2015 (EDT)