Editing Talk:Krusha (character)

== Merge with Krusha ==
{{TPP}}
{{multiframe
|[[File:Krusha DKC art.png|200px]][[File:Krusha (TV series).png|200px]][[File:DK64 Krusha.png|200px]]
|[[Krusha]],<br>[[Krusha (character)|Krusha]],<br>...is that last one [[Krusha#Donkey Kong 64|Krusha]]? 
|size=320
|align=right
}}
I recommend rereading this; it does get pretty complicated. I know a [[Talk:Klump#Merge General Klump here (and Krusha (character) to Krusha)|failed proposal]] tried to do this (and with General Klump). The assertions made within that proposal did not explain itself very well, so here's my take on this situation. There are two articles covering Krusha: [[Krusha|the enemies themselves]] and [[Krusha (character)|the one character]] who appears in the television series. Supposedly, the reasons for this particular Krusha having an article goes as follows:
#This Krusha is a character and not a species. After all, [[Toad]] and [[Yoshi]] have their [[Toad (species)|respective]] [[Yoshi (species)|species]] split, so it makes sense for others to have it.
#This Krusha is part of a duo with General Klump, a Klump character. They are two contributing characters in the show.
#He has had a few notable roles. In "[[Speed (episode)|Speed]]", he becomes a genius and a menace. If you've seen the ''SpongeBob'' episode where Patrick becomes intellectual, it's a similar premise.

All this makes sense if you focus on these pieces of evidence. The problem is that the non-cartoon Krusha is ''also'' occasionally referred to in the singular. The ''Super Mario'' franchise is no stranger to species characters using singular terms as if they are an individual. Shy Guys are their own thing. The playable one uses singular tense. Now, I know they are not the same thing because Shy Guys and Goombas are more consistently their members and only become individuals when they have to for the sake of a game. In the case of Krusha, some game guides refer to them in singular cases. Here are a few examples.
#The Player's Guide for the original SNES ''Donkey Kong Country'' states, "Check out the big guns on this crazy Kremling! '''Krusha''' is the big, blue, buff dude. '''He's''' also the big, silver, buffer dude! Donkey Kong can take out the Blue Krushas by jumping on them or rolling through them. Unfortunately, Diddy can not do the same. They make a really funny groaning noise when they bite the dust. When it comes to the Silver Krushas, just leave them alone. They're too tough to take out. Jump over them when the coast is clear or toss a barrel at them if you have one handy." Now, the guide does derail this eventually, but, interestingly, they don't say, "Krushas are big, blue buff dudes," but rather, "Krusha is the big, blue, buff dude," implying it's not too uncommon for regular enemies, especially in this [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|series]], to use singular usage.
#The one for ''Donkey Kong 64'' also does this, "One Kremling can join in the Kongtest if you've managed to capture 15 Fairies on film. '''When Krusha''' is available to enter the fray, watch out for '''his''' shots above all else. Unlike the Kongs, the Kremling fires orange shots that explode just like grenade oranges. The over-sized lizar also uses a super slide move to attack unwary apes." Another instance of Krusha being referred to in the singular.
#Klumps are also referred to in the singular on occasion. The instruction manual for the original game refers to one in the singular tense, implying that it is standard for regular enemies to use singular text.
#One of the opinions one may give is that TV!Krusha is unique because he is an idiot. Other Kremlings have occasionally shown low intelligence, including K. Rool himself. Plus, characterizations aren't always consistent. Mario has been a villain in ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' Yes, I know it's not the total same thing as the Krusha situation since Mario is an established character, but it strengthens my point that characterizations aren't a good reason for splitting a character from a species, because developers and writers can do whatever they want with the character.

My assertions above show it's unclear who the Krusha is. The franchise has used the singular tense to describe an individual Krusha and only the cartoon version gets his article. A similar case happens with [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|Birdo]] and [[Talk:Boom Boom (species)#Merge this with Boom Boom|Boom Boom]], whose appearances make it confusing as to which one is the individual character. While they have a [[Cheepy|few]] [[Giant Birdo|unique]] [[Pom Pom|members]], the line between Birdo and Birdos and Boom Boom and Boom Booms is never consistent, like Krusha. What Krusha are you talking about? Krusha from the [[Donkey Kong Country: Rumble in the Jungle|book]]? Krusha from the cartoon? Krusha from ''Donkey Kong 64''? Are they even the same entity? Nothing states they aren't; the [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|canonicity]] policy suggests we shouldn't try.

'''"Why not merge all instances of an implied Krusha character into Krusha (character)"'''

I  don't know if anyone suggests this, but it's possible. With Krushas making very few appearances nowadays and the television series article not having distinct traits in his own right, having two articles would confuse readers. Some people might search for Krusha (character) because they played ''Donkey Kong 64'', assuming he was his own entity because of his singular naming. 

'''"What about Lakitu?"'''

Lakitu is an interesting case, I agree. However, whenever a Lakitu referee appears in these games, there is no other Lakitu that appears to make for an obvious distinction. The [[Lakitu (Mario Kart referee)|Mario Kart one]] is noteworthy because the series would try to make a distinction between him and the playable one (who has a red shell). Plus, they did try to give MarioKart!Lakitu has his personality, something a lot of Lakitus don't have. As for the other referee Lakitus, we avoid making connections to this one, because it's not confirmed whether or not they are the same character and no other playable Lakitu appears in those games.

'''"So, should we merge General Klump?"'''

As this may surprise readers, '''no.''' General Klump has one distinct feature: '''his name.''' He is '''General''' Klump. Yes, he is referred to Klump generically, but they bothered to refer to this one as the General. Even different language versions of the show get this consistent.

'''Conclusion'''

I hope I made enough reasons for why I feel Krusha (character) no longer has a reason to stay. I do believe it should be kept as a redirect for potential readers, but it would not link to a specific header on the article, because it's not clear what people are searching for when searching for a character version of Krusha and not violating the canoncity policy. I already made a [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Krusha|sandbox]] on what that can potentially look like and it's satisfying to look at. The current article sticks out like a sore thumb given that we do not have any other information on characterized Krushas. 

'''Proposer''': {{User|TheUndescribableGhost}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Per proposal
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - PLEASE. However, I want to point out that the "enemy" Klump has been referred to as "General" in materials for DKC and DK64 both (including instruction manuals), so that's hardly unique to the cartoon character either (and if anyone tries to bring up the color difference, I'll point out beforehand the same show gave Dixie and Funky blond-colored fur and totally changed how Candy Kong looked, including giving her red fur).
#{{User|Hewer}} You know what, giving this another look, this makes sense. I'd probably say merge Klump too but it would be [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|pretty hypocritical of me]] to oppose for that alone, so per proposal.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all, though I wouldn't be opposed to merge General Klump with the Klump article, especially considering that's the only Klump outside of Captain Skurvy (whose modeled after Kannon) we see in the show... and likewise, Krusha is also the only Krusha we see in the cartoon.

====Oppose====
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} So, should we merge General Klump too?
====Comments====
"Ooh, ooh, but Klump! Why are we celebrating a decade-long abscess?" --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:39, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:"I said in memoriam of, not in celebration of! And that's "absence," you bone-headed halfwit!" --[[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 18:48, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
Klump has been referred to as "General" in manuals but it's only because they wear military gear. If we do this, then should we merge General Klump too? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:55, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
:That's not quite true. Both ''Rumble in the Jungle'' and the DK64 manual treat Klump as ''one of'' the Kremling generals, alongside others (primarily elite enemies in the former, presumably the trio of Kremlings seem reporting to him in cutscenes in the latter; in both cases, Klump's the only one who has military gear unless you count Krusha's camo suit.). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:00, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
@Doc von Schmeltwick I looked at the game manuals and can't find an instance of Klump being called "General Klump." I did find "Klump the Kremling," but that's about it. And I'm not talking about being called a general or being generically referred to as general; I'm more talking about being called "General Klump," and I have yet to find it. I'd say Klumpy can still have his article split. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 18:48, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 == Merge with Krusha ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|5-1|Merge with Krusha}}
 {{multiframe
 |[[File:Krusha DKC art.png|200px]][[File:Krusha (TV series).png|200px]][[File:DK64 Krusha.png|200px]]
@@ Line 44: / Line 43: @@
 #{{User|Hewer}} You know what, giving this another look, this makes sense. I'd probably say merge Klump too but it would be [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|pretty hypocritical of me]] to oppose for that alone, so per proposal.
 #{{User|Arend}} Per all, though I wouldn't be opposed to merge General Klump with the Klump article, especially considering that's the only Klump outside of Captain Skurvy (whose modeled after Kannon) we see in the show... and likewise, Krusha is also the only Krusha we see in the cartoon.
-#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
 ====Oppose====
@@ Line 54: / Line 52: @@
 :That's not quite true. Both ''Rumble in the Jungle'' and the DK64 manual treat Klump as ''one of'' the Kremling generals, alongside others (primarily elite enemies in the former, presumably the trio of Kremlings seem reporting to him in cutscenes in the latter; in both cases, Klump's the only one who has military gear unless you count Krusha's camo suit.). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:00, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
 @Doc von Schmeltwick I looked at the game manuals and can't find an instance of Klump being called "General Klump." I did find "Klump the Kremling," but that's about it. And I'm not talking about being called a general or being generically referred to as general; I'm more talking about being called "General Klump," and I have yet to find it. I'd say Klumpy can still have his article split. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 18:48, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
-:"Being generically referred to as general" is the best the cartoon character gets 99% of the time, too, so it doesn't seem too different a case to me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:09, July 23, 2024 (EDT)
-::I'd avoid making speculative thoughts like this. It's not like we're merging [[Captain Goomba (Mario & Luigi series)|Captain Goomba]] with Goomba. {{unsigned|TheUndescribableGhost}}
-:::Well he actually ''does'' appear alongside standard Goombas, and "graduated" from one thanks to plot. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:46, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
-:::How is it any more of a "speculative thought" than merging Krusha? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:45, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
-::::The fact that they gave General Klump a title while Krusha gets referred to as just Krusha (correct me if I'm wrong), I get the impression the writers of the show wanted to make Klumpy more distinctive, like how the individual Magikoopa character is referred to as Kamek various localizations. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 11:52, July 25, 2024 (EDT)