Editing Talk:Korvallis

Wait...if '''Koops''' says that it was his father, what does he have to do with '''Kolorado'''? {{User:Super-Yoshi/sig}}

:Because Koops was mistaken. After he read the letter in his hand, he found out that it was '''Kolorado's''' father. {{User:Stooben Rooben/sig}} 00:23, 9 January 2009 (EST)
::oh yah rofl, forgot about that :P. {{User:Super-Yoshi/sig}}

==Possible page move?==
So, I think I may have come up with an actual name for Kolorado's father. In the original TTYD, the ID for Goombella's tattle on him is リチャード ("Richard"), found in text file gon_03. Now, in the remake apparently all the tattles were moved to hint_npc, with the ID now being msg_kuri_npc_026 ("kuri" refers to Goombella). 

Now, this not being in the remake shouldn't matter, considering we still have a page called [[Frogfucius' Student]], but this Richard name is actually used in new content. In [[the Creepy Steeple Boo]]'s fifth quiz, a possible answer for "What is the name of the son mentioned in the letter held by the Dull Bones in Hooktail Castle?" in Japanese is リチャード ("Richard") once again. I will note that Kolorado's name is Charles in Japanese, so they have shared theming of having English names. 

With all this said, it seems pretty obvious we should just move the page to Richard and replace the conjectural name template with a dev data name template. However, there is one more thing I'd like to the discuss, and that is the fact that Kolorado's dad may have gotten an official English name, too.

Returning to that Creepy Steeple Boo quiz question, the option replacing "Richard" in English is "Korvallis". Like Richard matching Charles' naming scheme due to them being father and son, the same can be said for Korvallis and Kolorado. {{wp|Corvallis, Oregon|Corvallis}} is a city in Oregon, which I imagine NoA would be quite aware of due to being headquartered in Seattle, and Colorado is a state. Both location names replace the C with a K. I've actually headcanoned for months now that Korvallis is Kolorado's dad's name once I found out about Richard in the quiz, but finding out that he was called Richard even in the original game's files really seals the deal for me. However, I'm aware this is likely too speculative, and would not work as a page move unlike the explicitly from dev data Richard. I would still like to mention that his English name is ''possibly'' Korvallis in trivia or something. 

So yeah, I was considering making this a proposal, but we prioritize dev data over conjectural names and there isn't enough there to justify a move to Korvallis. So should we move the page to Richard? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 08:58, November 27, 2024 (EST)
: Only problem is, in English, he's referred to exclusively as Kolorado's father and Richard is never used outside of Dev Data. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:04, November 27, 2024 (EST)
::We use dev data names for several characters in Color Splash and Origami King. For instance, [[Prof. Kinopio]]. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:05, November 27, 2024 (EST)
::Also, he's never called "Kolorado's father" in English. That's a conjectural name. Instead, the closest we get is stuff like Goombella's tattle saying that he's not Koops's dad. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:01, November 27, 2024 (EST)

==Move Kolorado's father to Richard==
{{TPP}}
{{Early notice|December 4}}
See the discussion above. 

The main case for this move is Richard being the file name (so, dev data) for the tattle on Kolorado's dad in the original TTYD. While this was changed in the remake (which shouldn't matter, since this is still an official name), "Richard" is referenced in a different context, that being the Japanese translation of the newly added quizzes from [[the Creepy Steeple Boo]]. Richard also shares similar theming to Kolorado's English name, Charles (both being English names containing "char"), further implying this is meant to be the official name.

I wasn't going to make this a proposal, since dev data names are considered higher priority for page titles than conjectural names, so a move would match wiki policy, but I feel as if it's a bit different in this case. That being, this character has been known as "Kolorado's father" since the page's creation in 2007, and one of the only things known about him is, well, being Kolorado's father. I could see how the new name could be confusing to readers. However, "Kolorado's father" will 100% remain a redirect if this proposal passes (and I'd make a new redirect for "Kolorado's dad" to boot), and he'll likely still be referred to as such in pages (whether through piping or phrases like "Richard, Kolorado's father"). 

Additionally, I am of the belief that Korvallis could possibly be the English localization of the name, but since the evidence is not concrete, that will not be an option in this proposal (as much as I wish it could be). Instead, I'll just mention the possibility on his page, as well as mentioning how his Japanese name might be Richard if this proposal does not pass.

Note that there is already a page for [[Richard]], though it is disambiguation, so it would just get renamed to "Richard (disambiguation)". An identifier shouldn't be needed for Richard the Dull Bones' page.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Technetium}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Move to "Richard"===
#{{User|Technetium}} As proposer. 
#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per proposal and discussion above.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal and whatnot.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, not much to say here; if he's named Richard, uh, who are we to refute that? ;P
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per proposal. Seems pretty definitive to me.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} I too strongly suspect that Korvallis is indeed meant to be his English name, but at least sticking to what is confirmed by internal data doesn’t hurt.

===Keep as "Kolorado's father"===
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: He's never referred to as Richard in the English version, simple as that.

===Comments===
I don't understand what "the ID for Goombella tattling on him" means. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:21, November 27, 2024 (EST)
:Sorry for the weird wording, I should've said "the ID for Goombella's '''tattle''' on him". I'll go edit that! [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:22, November 27, 2024 (EST)
::I still don't understand what that means. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 05:07, November 29, 2024 (EST)
:::It means it's the file that contains the text for the tattle. Let's say there was a tattle for… Wario, sure. He thought Hooktail Castle would be a great place to go treasure hunting. So, there would be a file called gon_03 (or a different number), which correlates to the room of the castle the tattle is in. Then, the actual text of the tattle would have an ID of his Japanese name, ワリオ, which just directly translates to Wario. So basically, while it's the file for Goombella's tattle, the character she is tattling is identified in the file. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 05:38, November 29, 2024 (EST)

@PrincessPeachFan We have plenty of characters who have article names based off of other languages or dev data. These are considered higher priority than a purely conjectural name like "Kolorado's father", which again he's never referred to by in the English version. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:27, November 28, 2024 (EST)

==Identity as Dull Bones?==
Unrelated to the above proposal, but is it really right to call this character a Dull Bones? While he certainly uses a similar sprite/model, he is also an inanimate skeleton who does not move at any time, including during the Dull Bones horde sequence in which the attacking Dull Bones originate from the ceiling. It seems like it would be better to refer to him as a "Koopa Troopa skeleton with a similar appearance to a Dull Bones", a "deceased Koopa Troopa", or something of that sort. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:47, November 28, 2024 (EST)
:We actually have an answer from the very same Creepy Steeple Boo quiz question that began this proposal: "What is the name of the son mentioned in the letter held by the Dull Bones in Hooktail Castle?" So yeah, he's a Dull Bones. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:35, November 30, 2024 (EST)
::Fair enough, I suppose — I didn’t expect that, though I would also contend that this could be related to Dull Bones' Japanese name being simply "Koopa Skeleton", making a Dull Bones difficult to distinguish in name from an ordinary, inanimate Koopa skeleton. Still, I definitely hear what you're saying. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 21:51, November 30, 2024 (EST)
::Edit: I guess this is untrue, actually—I misremembered and intuited this from "Koopa Skeleton" being the enemy's name in pre-release material and several other languages, but the Japanese name is actually unique as ''Honenoko''. Apologies. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 21:54, November 30, 2024 (EST)
@@ Line 19: / Line 19: @@
 ==Move Kolorado's father to Richard==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|vetoed|Voters have expressed interest in another voting option being added, but it is too late to edit the proposal.}}
+{{Early notice|December 4}}
 See the discussion above.
@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 @PrincessPeachFan We have plenty of characters who have article names based off of other languages or dev data. These are considered higher priority than a purely conjectural name like "Kolorado's father", which again he's never referred to by in the English version. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:27, November 28, 2024 (EST)
-While I do think "Richard" is preferable to "Kolorado's father," I agree with Mister Wu. I would participate if there was an option to move the article to "Korvallis." I know this proposal has been active a bit too long to incorporate that, but it is something to keep in mind for the future. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:04, December 3, 2024 (EST)
 ==Identity as Dull Bones?==
@@ Line 61: / Line 59: @@
 ::Fair enough, I suppose — I didn’t expect that, though I would also contend that this could be related to Dull Bones' Japanese name being simply "Koopa Skeleton", making a Dull Bones difficult to distinguish in name from an ordinary, inanimate Koopa skeleton. Still, I definitely hear what you're saying. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 21:51, November 30, 2024 (EST)
 ::Edit: I guess this is untrue, actually—I misremembered and intuited this from "Koopa Skeleton" being the enemy's name in pre-release material and several other languages, but the Japanese name is actually unique as ''Honenoko''. Apologies. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 21:54, November 30, 2024 (EST)
-:::Also checked the Japanese version and ホネノコ (Honenoko) is used in the question, so yeah. Dull Bones he is. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 21:08, December 1, 2024 (EST)
-::::Makes sense! {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 23:31, December 1, 2024 (EST)
-==Move Kolorado's father to Richard or Korvallis==
-{{settled TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|passed|7-16-4|Move to Korvallis}}
-Time for take 2. See the above discussions and proposal.
-To recap, Richard comes from dev data in the original TTYD, though the name is also referenced again in the Creepy Steeple Boo quizzes added in the remake. Korvallis is the English replacement for Richard in that quiz, implying that it could be the official localization of the name. Additionally, both Richard and Korvallis match the naming scheme of Charles (Kolorado's Japanese name) and Kolorado. I initially didn't add Korvallis as an option because I thought it was too speculative, but several voters have expressed interest in the option being added.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Technetium}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': December 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT
-===Move to Richard===
-#{{User|Technetium}} Second choice. You can't really argue with the dev data, especially when it's referenced again 20 years later.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice, any change is better than none.
-#{{User|PaperSplash}} Backup option. Admittedly Korvallis does involve some reading between the lines, even if I agree it's the likely intent.
-#{{User|Pseudo}} Secondary choice.
-#{{user|Hooded Pitohui}} This is a very interesting chain of connections, and I can see the rationale behind the Korvallis option. That said, this isn't clear-cut enough for me to support Korvallis, and it hinges on the dev data name being changed between the two versions and the quiz answer being as devoid of context as it is. I'm hesitant to read into the developers' intentions regarding the name of the character when the assigned label differs between the games; there is as much a chance that the developers decided the character's name is not Richard and changed the label accordingly as any other interpretation of the dev data. While I don't think it's a coincidence the name reappears in the remake's quiz, without any in-game evidence connecting the name in the quiz to a specific character and with the intent behind the change in the data unknowable, it's not possible for me to discount the possibility it's some kind of developer in-joke. Perhaps they simply needed a random name (like Jabbula in quiz six, question two) and they grabbed a name from the data of the original they had dropped from the remake. If it's not possible to definitively connect the Japanese quiz name to the character, I don't feel right connecting the localization of that name to the character, either.
-#{{User|Mister Wu}} First choice. Internal names are surely better than conjectural names.
-#{{user|EvieMaybe}} secondary choice.
-===Move to Korvallis===
-#{{User|Technetium}} First choice. It seems pretty clear Korvallis is meant to be the localized name (especially given that the remake also fixed all the PM64 references lost in translation), though I can understand why it may seem too speculative.
-#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary choice, since this seems to be the currently accepted name from Nintendo of America.
-#{{User|PaperSplash}} Preferred option, per proposal, Technetium and Camwoodstock.
-#{{User|Pizza Master}} Given Richard is the file name for Kolorado's father in [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door|the original TTYD]] and the name is referenced by the [[The Creepy Steeple Boo]] in the Japanese release of [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|the switch TTYD]] and Korvallis replaces Richard in the English release, this would seem to be their intended name. This especially makes sense because of the naming similarities between Richard and Charles & Kolorado and Korvallis. Per Technetium and Camwoodstock.
-#{{User|Scrooge200}} Fits the naming scheme and is clearly intended as the proper name.
-#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal – I forgot that I hadn't re-voted already!
-#{{User|Dainn}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Mister Wu}} Second choice. The equivalent names in the other languages suggest that the name of the first choice of the quiz is a name connected to Kolorado, this together with the knowledge that Richard is the name the developers gave to Kolorado’s father gives this choice some merit - all the clues we got so far point toward the direction of Korvallis being the English localization of Richard. Per policy, we should at least name this page Richard, if we have enough reasons to believe that Korvallis is the English localization of Richard, we can allow using it as page name, methink.
-#{{user|GeneralDonitsky}} Per proposal.
-#{{user|EvieMaybe}} primary choice. interesting little conundrum you got there, technetium
-#{{user|LadySophie17}} per all.
-===Keep as Kolorado's father===
-#{{User|Remembered Old Buddy}} Borh names seem too speculative.
-#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Remembered Old Buddy.
-#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Both names have equal credibility, so going for either is tossing a coin to what the developers intended. Defaulting to neither seems thus safer.
-#{{User|MCD}} Per LTQ.
-===Comments===
-{{@|Remembered Old Buddy}} Richard is in the data of the original TTYD, and names from dev data are prioritized over conjecture. Even if the remake quiz is too speculative, this one instance of Richard is enough to warrant a move without a proposal. I decided to do a proposal anyway though since there is a lot more to this. Feel free to read the discussion and proposal above for more info on how Richard is from dev data (if you haven't already). [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:24, December 3, 2024 (EST)
-{{@|Technetium}} Is Richard an incorrect answer for [[The Creepy Steeple Boo]] Quiz 5's question 2 in the Japanese release of [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|the switch TTYD]]? That seems to be implied in your proposal reasoning but I would appreciate clarification if you please. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 20:17, December 3, 2024 (EST)
-:Yep, it is. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:18, December 3, 2024 (EST)
-{{@|Technetium}} The remake would’ve signed the letter with the name if the devs intended for him to be named, like “from Richard” or something. {{User:Remembered Old Buddy/sig}} 22:11, December 3, 2024 (EST)
-:I don't think the actively dying guy would have time to sign his name when his son would already know who he is (would also lessen the impact of the letter imo, he's saying all this stuff about how he loves his son and then he signs with his first name? Huh?) The reason it's not in the files of the remake is because they changed how Goombella's tattles are ID - there are no longer names for any character getting tattled, just a number and location. So with there not being an in-universe reason to mention the name and the file change being unrelated to this, the fact they mentioned it in the quiz shows they are still aware of it. And even if the name wasn't anywhere in the remake, it being in the original game would still be enough basis for the move, given it's still ''an'' official source. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:15, December 3, 2024 (EST)
-{{@|Rykitu}} While I definitely understand feeling that Korvallis is too speculative, I'm still not quite sure why dev data (Richard) is being considered as such too. Many articles on this wiki use dev data names - see Category:Articles with titles from development data (won't let me link it for some reason huh). And yes, while Richard isn't dev data in the remake, it seems to have been a global change on tattle IDs, not them retconning the name Richard (especially if it's referenced elsewhere anyway). [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:44, December 4, 2024 (EST)
-:For future reference, you can link categories by starting the link with a colon after the first square brackets, e.g. [[:Category:Articles with titles from development data]], otherwise it would put this page in the category. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:22, December 5, 2024 (EST)
-Out of curiosity, what is written in the quiz in place of Korvallis in the other languages? A comparison with the name chosen there and the name of Kolorado in the respective languages might give us additional clues about whether that choice in the quiz is indeed meant to state the name of Kolorado’s father.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:26, December 5, 2024 (EST)
-:All the Asian languages (Japanese, simplified and traditional Chinese, Korean) are Richard, with Kolorado being named Charles. German, French (both NoA and NoE), and Spanish (both NoA and NoE) are Korvallis - Kolorado uses his English name in those languages. Italian is weird because Kolorado is still named Charles there, but instead of Richard, they did Karles. And then Dutch, where Kolorado is named Koopar, replaces Korvallis with Koolrabi - not sure where this name comes from at the moment, but could look into it. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 21:47, December 5, 2024 (EST)
-::Thinking about it, maybe Italian changed the name from Richard because the commonality between Charles and Richard would not be nearly as clear for a European audience where those are very common names. So they might've thought, "oh they should just rhyme instead". [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 21:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
-:::Yes, the idea that appears in the Italian localization is that the equivalent of Richard must be a name that recalls ''Charles'', so the general concept in both the Japanese and most translated names is that the name of the first choice is a name connected to Kolorado’s name. This, together with the knowledge that we have that Richard is the developers’ name for Kolorado’s father makes the choice of Korvallis as page name less farfetched, although it might technically still be a stretch if we want to be pedantic. Thanks {{@|Technetium}} for the comprehensive answer!--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:04, December 7, 2024 (EST)
-::Apparently, "koolrabi" is the Dutch name for {{wp|Kohlrabi}}, a vegetable. As for why they chose that, I have no idea. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 05:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
-Per talk on Discord about this and how the Dutch localisation team seems to have done a bit of their own thing for the quiz options, these are what appear to be the meanings behind those:
-*Koolrabi: straight up just the Dutch name of {{wp|kohlrabi}}, or otherwise possibly a play on ''koolraap'', meaning {{wp|rutabaga}}. This does not fit in line with the city parallel and is just (a pun on) a similar sounding word, I wouldn't try to find a pattern here.
-*Koopar: (this is the correct answer, see [[Kolorado#Names_in_other_languages|here]])
-*Roodkooper: Kooper may sound too similar to Koopar. ''Rood'' means red; I've heard that there is a Red Bones nearby where the skeleton is found (essentially called a Red Dull Bones in Dutch), this might be a reference to that. Again, wouldn't try to find a pattern here.
-*Koops: same as English.
-So, unlike what some of the other localisations appear to have done, the Dutch team seem to just have done their own thing. Personally I think this makes sense, Charles is not a common name here, I don't expect anyone to casually know about American cities, and the team seems to have localised a bunch of names in general, making the parallel even harder to make. Fun trivia for sure, but the Dutch localisation is not a reliable source for this discussion. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 01:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
-:I will say that the Korvallis name is used in a bunch of other languages, and even I, as an American, had no idea the city Corvallis existed (I'm from the east coast, to be fair). So, I think they just changed Korvallis's name because Kolorado's got changed - so even if there isn't a clear connection between Koolrabi and Koopar, the fact they changed the name at all instead of having it be Korvallis and Koopar could further imply that localizers are approaching the name from a "this is the character's actual name" view, not a "this is just for a quiz" view. Even the fact Italian changed the name from Richard to Karles despite Kolorado being named Charles there... maybe this indicates something. Or Dutch specifically is just being weird with this, because I have a hard time believing they actually intended Kooper's official Dutch name to be Roodkooper. Like he has a blue shell, come on. Anyway, maybe you have a better idea on the implications of the foreign names, {{@|Mister Wu}} (I completely forgot to ping you when I responded last night). [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 21:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
-{{@|Hooded Pitohui}} While I definitely understand where you're coming from, and you make good points, I do want to clarify one aspect - the dev data being changed in the remake has nothing to do with Richard specifically. All of the character IDs from the original for tattles were removed, many of those being named characters in the game itself who didn't have their names changed in the remake. They just decided to organize the tattles differently in the code, it seems. For example, the tattle for Professor Frankly in the remake is now just msg_kuri_npc_315 (Kolorado's father is msg_kuri_npc_026). So I don't think the Richard ID being removed from dev data indicates anything about the possibility of Kolorado's father's name being changed. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 11:32, December 7, 2024 (EST)
-:Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification. I still am of the opinion that the connections are too unclear for my tastes, but that genuinely does clear up one of the concerns I had and does strengthen the case for Korvallis. I wasn't certain what exactly the labels had been changed to. [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 12:29, December 7, 2024 (EST)
-{{@|Lakituthequick}} {{@|MCD}} I'm not fully sure what you mean by Richard and Korvallis having "equal credibility". While yes, different translations of a character's name have equal credibility (given they are all official), as an English wiki, we prioritize English titles over Japanese titles when available. Unless you are incorporating the fact Richard is dev data in the original TTYD into this - still not really sure what you mean by your wording though, so I'd appreciate some clarification. I guess the way I see it at least is that we either go with Richard due to it being dev data, or we use Richard being in the quiz in the remake to presume that Korvallis is the English localization of the name. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 11:29, December 8, 2024 (EST)
-:Don't really feel strongly either way, but if there's a such lack of clarity and agreement then personally I just don't see why it's worth changing it from "Kolorado's father" in the first place. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 13:46, December 8, 2024 (EST)
-::Simply because we try to avoid conjectural names when we can here. And as these are the likely intended names of the character, that's info we should make clear, imo, given we're a wiki and all. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 15:56, December 8, 2024 (EST)
-::I feel like Richard being the intended Japanese name, or at the very least an internal name for the character, isn't really debatable here. The question is whether Korvallis is meant to be the English version of that name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:53, December 8, 2024 (EST)