Editing Talk:Koopa Striker

I don't think this should be counted as a sub-species of Hammer Bros.; it was just a theory that they originally were, plus there named "Koopa Striker", not "Striker Brother". -- [[User: Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

== Koopa Troopa? ==
Copying what I wrote in [[Talk:Chargin' Chuck]] over to here:

The main argument for Koopa Strikers being a variant of Koopa Troopa, from what I understand, is the English (and other languages whose scripts were translated from English) name for Koopa Striker and Troopa Striker, but aside from that? I mean, it looks kinda like a Koopa Troopa, but so do Hammer Bros in these games. And in the catch card list, the various types of Koopa Troopas, Paratroopas, and Koopatrols appear all together, while the Strikers appear later on in the list alongside other Koopa clan enemies like the Bros and Magikoopas. And unlike the explicitly Koopa Troopa enemies (even the Bones, which admittedly also listed separately), its Japanese catch card description doesn't refer to it as "Nokonoko", but as a "カメ族だいひょう" (Koopa clan representative?), which just mentions the Koopa clan in general. So I'm thinking the Strikers are just their own thing.

So, I guess, if anyone has thoughts... discussion can happen, or something. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:36, January 17, 2024 (EST)
:It's also not "Troopa" Striker, it's "Toopa" Striker, the pun being they're found in pairs (something primarily associated with ''Hammer Bros'', not Troopas). I was always a little iffy on them being classified here due to their unconventional pink heads with tiny eyes and big red eyebrows, and the fact that SPM's Hammer Bros (which are ''not'' Troopas) also share many of the same visual characteristics with Troopas as these guys do. The only thing Strikers have more than them is that they duck into their shells when hit. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:48, January 17, 2024 (EST)

::I think it's possible they're not actually variants of Koopa Troopas, but I feel it is clear that they are Koopas of some sort, like how Buzzy Beetles or Lakitus are. My simplistic point of view can see more general similarities than Chargin Chucks and Boom Booms (stance, shell shape, some naming, behavior sorta, mostly backing up the last thing Doc mentioned with the ducking into their shells when jumped on), but that's also coming from someone who's... well, just going by what he sees and reads. My stance is that they could be variants of Koopa Troopas, but I'm not going to argue/debate against the opposite, cause there are fair points made there too. {{User:Tails777/sig}}15:07, January 17, 2024 (EST)

== Stop considering them a variant of Koopa Troopa ==
{{TPP}}
Basically the above section, as a proposal.
The goal is to classify Koopa Striker as a variant of [[Koopa (species)|the Koopa clan]] in generally instead of [[Koopa Troopa]] specifically.

Here are the arguments:
* '''Name:''' None of the enemy's names reference Koopa Troopa specifically, nor do those of its harder variants.
* '''Appearance:''' While its appearance has some similarities to Koopa Troopa, so does the game's Hammer Bro design, as you can see:
<gallery>
SPM Red KoopaTroopa.png
SPMHammerBro.png
SPMKoopaStriker.png
</gallery>
* '''Catch Card list position:''' The Catch Card list generally lists related enemies close together. The Koopa Troopa, Mega Koopa, Koopatrol, Paratroopa and their dark variants are all listed next to each other. Dry Bones and their relatives are listed separately, admittedly.
* '''Catch Card description:''' It seems that the catch card descriptions were changed a lot in translation. Maybe because of text space restrictions? To add humor? Both? In the Japanese version, the aforementioned Koopa Troopa enemies '''including the Bones enemies''' are all described as ''Nokonoko'' (Koopa Troopas). The Koopa Striker, however, is just described as belonging to the ''Kame-zoku'' (Koopa clan).

Anyways, I think that's all.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Blinker}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 9, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - This has bothered me for a while. While I stand by what I said on the Chargin' Chuck proposal, in this case there's more to separating them than keeping them a subset from what I can tell. Per proposal. (Also the irony that the one original enemy in this game to not have that weird abstract style and also fits perfectly in the ''Mario'' platformers behavior-wise never appeared again...)
#{{User|Hewer}} Sure, per proposal.
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} I also agree that it makes sense to consider this its own kind of Koopa, rather than a subspecies of a Koopa Troopa. If we determined parent species based solely on ''resemblance'', then Hammer Bros would probably be a subspecies of Koopa Troopas.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Arend}} I understand the predicament here, but there's a bit of an issue here that prevents me from fully supporting this (aside from the fact that they still have '''Koopa''' in the name in most languages like a lot of other Koopa Troopa subspecies in the game): their attack pattern is incredibly similar to that of a blue [[Unshelled Koopa Troopa]] in ''[[Super Mario World]]'', which kicks other Koopa Shells in Mario's direction. As such, a Koopa Striker's shell not only resembles a Koopa Troopa shell with soccer ball colors, but functions the exact same, too. The ''only'' non-Koopa Troopa Koopas I can think of which shell functions similarly are [[Buzzy Beetle]], [[Spiny]], and probably [[Snortoise]] (even though the wiki DOES consider that one a Koopa Troopa): none of which resemble a Koopa Troopa as much as Koopa Striker does. If the proposal passes, we should at the very least consider these as comparable to blue Unshelled Koopas, if not related.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Arend.
#{{User|Mario}} It's a minor detail but the facial makeup matches Koopa Troopa (Hammer Bro.'s mouth is disjointed and situated on the front of the overall head vs Koopa Troopa's mouth which is one piece), the shell matches other Koopa Troopa (Hammer Bro.'s shell is more wavy) and it has a tail (unlike Hammer Bro.), and its attacks are generally shell-related. There are indeed many differences in the naming schemes in other languages and quite a few design differences (the eyes mostly) but it would probably be better to err on good enough resemblance to Koopa Troopas and have them listed with the other Koopa Troopas. i.e. it's not unreasonable to call this a variant of Koopa Troopa.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Koopa. Per all.

===Comments===
How is this treated across other languages? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:22, January 27, 2024 (EST)
:As usual in this game, names in most other languages follow the English version, while the Korean translation follows the Japanese version. No idea about the card bios though, I only found those in English and Japanese. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:07, January 28, 2024 (EST)
::I mean, Tippi saying something about making "the Koopa Striker team" (in English at least) ''implies'' that they should have a base form... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:23, February 1, 2024 (EST)

@DrippingYellow We're not saying they're a Hammer Bro, we're saying all three are separate lines. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, January 31, 2024 (EST)
:Ah, you're right, I should've paid more attention to the introduction of the proposal... [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:59, January 31, 2024 (EST)

@MegaBowser64 What do you mean, "Koopa"? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:15, January 31, 2024 (EST)
@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 == Stop considering them a variant of Koopa Troopa ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-4}}
 Basically the above section, as a proposal.
 The goal is to classify Koopa Striker as a variant of [[Koopa (species)|the Koopa clan]] in generally instead of [[Koopa Troopa]] specifically.
@@ Line 40: / Line 39: @@
 #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
 #{{User|DrippingYellow}} I also agree that it makes sense to consider this its own kind of Koopa, rather than a subspecies of a Koopa Troopa. If we determined parent species based solely on ''resemblance'', then Hammer Bros would probably be a subspecies of Koopa Troopas.
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I have to admit, this would just be more consistent with the other ones that are just described as "Koopas". Buzzy Beetle and Spiny have more of a reason to be considered direct relatives given their Tattle Log / Catch Card placements (Dry Bones may have been thrown off due to it being positioned as a stronger Dull Bones in these games).
-#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 53: / Line 50: @@
 :As usual in this game, names in most other languages follow the English version, while the Korean translation follows the Japanese version. No idea about the card bios though, I only found those in English and Japanese. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:07, January 28, 2024 (EST)
 ::I mean, Tippi saying something about making "the Koopa Striker team" (in English at least) ''implies'' that they should have a base form... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:23, February 1, 2024 (EST)
-:::Ah, that. Sorry, but I don't even know where to start looking for the other-language tattles. That said, all that really implies is that being a Koopa Striker is like a job...  But I doubt Chargin' Chucks hatch already knowing how to play football. And Magikoopas are said to "study for years to learn magic". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:33, February 1, 2024 (EST)
-::::Magikoopas do have earlier Chinese names that suggest they were a type of Koopa Troopa, but as far as I know, that's the only connection. That said, I wonder if the idea of making Koopa Troopas bipedal in the first place was meant to suggest they're the predecessor of other biped Koopas (like Hammer Bros. being the "elites" and generally having a similar design except for the head), but that's a shot in the dark. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:51, February 2, 2024 (EST)
-:::::{{user|Scrooge200}} found the JP tattle:
-::::: 『コウラシューター』
-::::: コウラを　じざいに　あやつる
-::::: カメ<r>族<Rぞく>だいひょうイレブンの　１ぴき・・・}}
-::::: ＨＰは『%d』
-::::: こうげき<r>力<Rりょく>は『%d』　ぼうぎょ<r>力<Rりょく>は『１』
-::::: けとばした　コウラで　こうげきしてくる・・・
-::::: きょうれつ　かつ　せいかくな　キックと
-::::: かれいな　コウラさばきが　じまんのようよ・・・
-::::: 『<r>目<Rめ>には　<r>目<Rめ>を　コウラには　コウラを』
-::::: ・・・けられた　コウラは
-::::: けりかえして　やると　いいわ
-::::: "Nokonoko" is not mentioned anywhere in that, while kame-zoku is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:18, February 2, 2024 (EST)
 @DrippingYellow We're not saying they're a Hammer Bro, we're saying all three are separate lines. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, January 31, 2024 (EST)
@@ Line 73: / Line 55: @@
 @MegaBowser64 What do you mean, "Koopa"? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:15, January 31, 2024 (EST)
-:I meant that the Koopa Striker is indeed a variant of a Koopa Troopa. [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) 14:34, February 2, 2024 (EST)
-::How do you know? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:23, February 2, 2024 (EST)
-:::Oh, I just meant that as my opinion lol. [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) 16:02, February 2, 2024 (EST)
-:This proposal sounds like you're considering "Koopa Troopa" a rank or position, but it's a species. And Koopa Strikers are clearly of the same species. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:42, February 3, 2024 (EST)
-::The heads are different, though. And no, the proposal is treating them as three different species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:11, February 3, 2024 (EST)