Editing Talk:Koopa Cruiser crew

==So...==
Doesn't the creation of this article need a proposal to override [[Talk:Bowser Baddies|this old one]]? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:38, November 26, 2023 (EST)
:It respects the previous discussion linked, it now properly distinguishes the Koopa Cruiser crew as a subset within the overall Bowser Baddies. The previous Bowser Baddies split suggestion had erroneously applied the name to the subset crew, when Bowser Baddies is synonymous with the Koopa Corps/Koopa Troop.[[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 20:51, November 26, 2023 (EST)
::The old proposal specifically refers to the aviator-geared Koopa Troopa crewmembers (this was before the remake, where they're normal Koopa Troopas and thus support the no-split suggestion). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:52, November 27, 2023 (EST)
:::The old proposal to split "Bowser Baddies" concluded with Bowser Baddies referring to the overall Koopa Troop in translation, which this page does not conflict with. Furthermore, most appearances including ''Partners in Time'' have aviator-gear and we go off of [[canon|official depictions]] rather than assuming canonicity. They are officially specified as its "crew" and now found to also be specified as its "personnel”. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 08:50, November 27, 2023 (EST)
::::It seems kind of redundant with the overall articles for the Cruiser and for Troopas. The gear was always a stylistic choice, like how the trace-walking Troopas in ''Odyssey'' all wear funny hats. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:58, November 27, 2023 (EST)
:::::The distinction is that the Cruiser and its crew are officially described as its "crew" and "personnel" regardless of clothing, whereas the trace-walking Troopas seem to have no official descriptions specifying them. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 11:24, November 27, 2023 (EST)
:::::: I don't think this article really needs to exist. It's just describing what's effectively a sub-faction in the Koopa Troop and the only difference is that they wear aviator clothes in the original version. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 13:12, November 27, 2023 (EST)
::::::: I agree, anything worth saying here can easily be said instead in the Koopa Cruiser, Koopa Troopa, Goomba articles. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:20, November 27, 2023 (EST)
::::::::Can what's said in [[Deep Cuts Toad]] or [[Mushroom Shop Clerk]] be easily said in the general [[Toad (species)|Toad]] article as well? I thought [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]] exist for officially described content that do not (yet) have proper names with capitalization. The crew has more notability through recurrence, story, and gameplay, than those two aforementioned Toad conjectures. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:28, November 27, 2023 (EST)
:::::::They're in Partners in Time too. If the recurring sub-faction is described in official material, why can't it stand? It has more reference than other [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]] such as [[Deep Cuts Toad]], a purple Toad. Or [[Mushroom Shop Clerk]], a tall Toad with a orange-striped vest and black shirt. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:28, November 27, 2023 (EST)

==Merge back to [[Koopa Troopa]]==
{{TPP}}
This conjecturally titled page was created without a proposal, and marginally defies a previous proposal that merged "Bowser Baddies" into the page that is now called [[Bowser's Minions]], and is about Koopa Troopas as they appear in the first two ''Mario & Luigi'' games. The motivation for this split was because of the aviator gear, though there are no "generic" Koopa Troopas in those games to lack said gear - the only other Koopa Troopas in those games are variations ([[Dry Bones]] in both, [[Troopea]]s and allies as well as [[Ankoopa]]s in the former) or specific named characters ([[Kylie Koopa]] in the latter). ''Superstar Saga'', with its extra-goofy, whimsical artstyle, wasn't exactly a model for design consistency with other games. And of course, the remake nixes said gear entirely to portray them as bog-standard-design Troopas (as the other BIS-onward M&L games portrayed nonspecific, nonvariant Troopas) in every sense to better segue into the "Minion Quest" campaign.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}
<br>
'''Deadline''': August 14, 2024 (GMT)

===Support===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per, you can easily fit this into Koopa Troopa's article in their section about their role in Superstar Saga and Partners in Time
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} A bit like splitting green-hatted Goombas living in Rogueport to me.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per. I never agreed with the reasoning to split this in the first place.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{user|Boddle}} The reasoning is not about design as incorrectly described in the proposal, it exists as they are officially described as "crew" and "personnel" in their respective games like other [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]]. If merged back, we would have to merge [[Deep Cuts Toad]] back to [[Toad (species)]] and [[Mushroom Shop Clerk]] back to [[Toad (species)]] for the same reasoning. It also raises the question of why [[sailor]] existed as '''"S.S. Chuckola crew member"'''.

===Comments===
The reasoning for the page was misrepresented. The reason for its existence is because they are officially described as "crew" and "personnel" in their respective games, regardless of design or gear. The remake of Superstar Saga nixing the gear is irrelevant when we go off of [[canon|official depictions]]. In-game descriptions are same reason why [[sailor]] existed as '''"S.S. Chuckola crew member"''' despite having no capitalized name. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 10:39, August 10, 2024 (EDT)

Just as an aside, the reason given was also because they were described as such in spin-off material, read, a gag manga. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:56, August 2, 2024 (EDT)
:Incorrect, I stated because they were described as such in official material. "crew" in Superstar Saga and "personnel" in Partners in Time.[[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 10:39, August 10, 2024 (EDT)

The basic point is that these are just generic Koopa Troopas who are generically referred to in generic terms. That's why most of us are agreeing to merge because they have literally nothing that makes them unique and even the remake got rid of their "unique" looks. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:55, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 :::::: I don't think this article really needs to exist. It's just describing what's effectively a sub-faction in the Koopa Troop and the only difference is that they wear aviator clothes in the original version. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 13:12, November 27, 2023 (EST)
 ::::::: I agree, anything worth saying here can easily be said instead in the Koopa Cruiser, Koopa Troopa, Goomba articles. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:20, November 27, 2023 (EST)
-::::::::Can what's said in [[Deep Cuts Toad]] or [[Mushroom Shop clerk|Mushroom Shop Clerk]] be easily said in the general [[Toad (species)|Toad]] article as well? I thought [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]] exist for officially described content that do not (yet) have proper names with capitalization. The crew has more notability through recurrence, story, and gameplay, than those two aforementioned Toad conjectures. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:28, November 27, 2023 (EST)
+::::::::Can what's said in [[Deep Cuts Toad]] or [[Mushroom Shop Clerk]] be easily said in the general [[Toad (species)|Toad]] article as well? I thought [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]] exist for officially described content that do not (yet) have proper names with capitalization. The crew has more notability through recurrence, story, and gameplay, than those two aforementioned Toad conjectures. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:28, November 27, 2023 (EST)
-:::::::They're in Partners in Time too. If the recurring sub-faction is described in official material, why can't it stand? It has more reference than other [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]] such as [[Deep Cuts Toad]], a purple Toad. Or [[Mushroom Shop clerk|Mushroom Shop Clerk]], a tall Toad with a orange-striped vest and black shirt. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:28, November 27, 2023 (EST)
+:::::::They're in Partners in Time too. If the recurring sub-faction is described in official material, why can't it stand? It has more reference than other [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]] such as [[Deep Cuts Toad]], a purple Toad. Or [[Mushroom Shop Clerk]], a tall Toad with a orange-striped vest and black shirt. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:28, November 27, 2023 (EST)
 ==Merge back to [[Koopa Troopa]]==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|7-1|Merge}}
 This conjecturally titled page was created without a proposal, and marginally defies a previous proposal that merged "Bowser Baddies" into the page that is now called [[Bowser's Minions]], and is about Koopa Troopas as they appear in the first two ''Mario & Luigi'' games. The motivation for this split was because of the aviator gear, though there are no "generic" Koopa Troopas in those games to lack said gear - the only other Koopa Troopas in those games are variations ([[Dry Bones]] in both, [[Troopea]]s and allies as well as [[Ankoopa]]s in the former) or specific named characters ([[Kylie Koopa]] in the latter). ''Superstar Saga'', with its extra-goofy, whimsical artstyle, wasn't exactly a model for design consistency with other games. And of course, the remake nixes said gear entirely to portray them as bog-standard-design Troopas (as the other BIS-onward M&L games portrayed nonspecific, nonvariant Troopas) in every sense to better segue into the "Minion Quest" campaign.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}
-'''Deadline''': August 14, 2024, 23:59 (GMT)
+<br>
+'''Deadline''': August 14, 2024 (GMT)
 ===Support===
@@ Line 29: / Line 29: @@
 ===Oppose===
-#{{user|Boddle}} The reasoning is not about design as incorrectly described in the proposal, it exists as they are officially described as "crew" and "personnel" in their respective games like other [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]]. The Superstar Saga remake further distinguishes "Minions" as Bowser's overall forces and "crew" pertaining to the Koopa Cruiser within those forces. If merged back, we would have to merge [[Deep Cuts Toad]] back to [[Toad (species)]] and [[Mushroom Shop clerk|Mushroom Shop Clerk]] back to [[Toad (species)]] for the same reasoning. It also raises the question of why [[sailor]] existed as '''"S.S. Chuckola crew member"'''.
+#{{user|Boddle}} The reasoning is not about design as incorrectly described in the proposal, it exists as they are officially described as "crew" and "personnel" in their respective games like other [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles|conjecture articles]]. If merged back, we would have to merge [[Deep Cuts Toad]] back to [[Toad (species)]] and [[Mushroom Shop Clerk]] back to [[Toad (species)]] for the same reasoning. It also raises the question of why [[sailor]] existed as '''"S.S. Chuckola crew member"'''.
 ===Comments===
-The reasoning for the page was misrepresented. Firstly it was written new rather than split from an existing page, and the reason for its existence is because they are officially described as "crew" and "personnel" in their respective games, regardless of design or gear. The remake of Superstar Saga nixing the gear is irrelevant when we go off of [[canon|official depictions]]. In-game descriptions are same reason why [[sailor]] existed as '''"S.S. Chuckola crew member"''' despite having no capitalized name. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 10:39, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
+The reasoning for the page was misrepresented. The reason for its existence is because they are officially described as "crew" and "personnel" in their respective games, regardless of design or gear. The remake of Superstar Saga nixing the gear is irrelevant when we go off of [[canon|official depictions]]. In-game descriptions are same reason why [[sailor]] existed as '''"S.S. Chuckola crew member"''' despite having no capitalized name. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 10:39, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
 Just as an aside, the reason given was also because they were described as such in spin-off material, read, a gag manga. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:56, August 2, 2024 (EDT)
 :Incorrect, I stated because they were described as such in official material. "crew" in Superstar Saga and "personnel" in Partners in Time.[[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 10:39, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-::The basic point is that these are just generic Koopa Troopas who are generically referred to in generic terms. That's why most of us are agreeing to merge because they have literally nothing that makes them unique and even the remake got rid of their "unique" looks. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:55, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
+The basic point is that these are just generic Koopa Troopas who are generically referred to in generic terms. That's why most of us are agreeing to merge because they have literally nothing that makes them unique and even the remake got rid of their "unique" looks. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:55, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-:::The issue of looks or design doesn't appear to be relevant though when conjecture articles are dependent on official descriptions and role in games. The remake changing design isn't relevant as it continues to describe them "crew" (not to mention Partners in Time still having said design). It raises an interesting question, is the [[Deep Cuts Toad]] to be merged back to [[Toad (species)]] because of looks, despite his relevance in the game and his in-game descriptions? [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 11:09, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-::::In that case, there's "normal" ones to compare him to in role. In this case, there isn't - they're the only normal Troopas in the game(s). This has less reason to be split than the punk-wearing enemy Troopas in the first three ''Paper Mario'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:46, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::Deep Cuts Toad is a normal Toad though, except he just wears purple clothes and has purple spots. I'm struggling to see the difference. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 16:43, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::He is, but he's not the ''only'' one. That's the main thing here. These are just ordinary Koopa Troopa NPCs with no role other than "they are minions of Bowser" - ie, their ''normal'' role. Now, for instance, the individual photographer character could be split since he has a notable role, but in general they are not distinct from Koopa Troopas whatsoever. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:46, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-The role of operating the Koopa Cruiser, transporting the Bros., and repelling Shroob invaders seems like a notable role, but I appreciate the distinction you made between a group opposed to an individual character. I could certainly agree to the photographer or other individual characters with notable individual roles existing, if that is generally the standard for conjectural articles. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 17:07, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-Also, I hate the notion of saying certain articles would have to be merged with another because one proposal passed which didn't even have that topic in it. This sort of thing is a case-by-case basis and if somebody wanted to merge Deep Cuts Toad with Toad (species), that would be its own discussion/proposal. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:56, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-:I thought there was a consistent guideline for what constitutes an article? [[MarioWiki:Conjectural names]] states "if the subject is notable enough" and [[MarioWiki:Naming#Conjectural_names]] states "If the only available indication of a subject's name is a generic term or phrase rather than a clear name, then that description may be used", this page seemed to meet that standard. If it doesn't, figuring out why one article passes while another fails, seems relevant to finding clarity to what the policy guideline actually is. You even made the "green-hatted Goombas living in Rogueport" comparison which I actually found helpful in illustrating what the line is. Without a consistent policy guideline, wouldn't articles would be just determined on if users subjectively like or dislike it? [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 16:43, August 10, 2024 (EDT)
-: This subject just plain isn't notable enough. They're just there to provide gameplay tutorials and some yuks and the remake getting rid of their unique designs means even Nintendo doesn't think they're notable either. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:11, August 11, 2024 (EDT)
-::Operating the Koopa Cruiser, transporting the Bros, taking photographs for passports, tutorial on how battle gameplay works, and repelling Shroob invaders, is more notable than a single purple Toad that gives hints. I don't know why we're still fixating on their designs when that's not the reason for the page and irrelevant to them being described as "crew" and "personnel" of the Cruiser in their games, we go off of [[canon|official depictions]] so the remake isn't the only representation, and even if designs were critical they still have them in Partners in Time. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 13:42, August 11, 2024 (EDT)
-:::Why does them being called "crew" or "personnel" make them distinct? They are indeed the crew/personnel of the ship, it's just a description of their role. And said role, as Doc said above, is just the normal Koopa Troopa role of being Bowser's minions. Does the fact that they are serving Bowser on a ship rather than elsewhere give them distinction? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:10, August 12, 2024 (EDT)
-:::: Yeah, that's the whole thing we're bringing up. They have literally nothing that makes them distinct from other Koopa Troopas and their only "name" is an incredibly generic title. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:52, August 13, 2024 (EDT)
-::::Other than lacking a capitalized name, which is the purpose for notable conjectural articles, the crew (transporting the Bros, taking passport photos, operating and piloting the Cruiser, repelling Shroobs, tutorial on how battle gameplay works) appears distinguished through these roles in story and gameplay like the Koopa Bros. (disguising themselves as Toads, guarding the Koopa Bros. fortress, fought in gameplay) who are also Koopa Troopas within Bowser's Minions. We also know that the remake of Superstar Saga continues to distinguish them as "crew", while also calling the overall forces that they’re part of Bowser’s Minions. [[User:Boddle|Boddle]] ([[User talk:Boddle|talk]]) 20:41, August 13, 2024 (EDT)