Editing Talk:Koopa (species)
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== Split "{{fake link|Koopa (Bowser's species)}}" into its own article and rename this page to "Koopa (clan)" == | == Split "{{fake link|Koopa (Bowser's species)}}" into its own article and rename this page to "Koopa (clan)" == | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-11-3-1|split Bowser's species only}} | ||
There's a lot of information on Bowser's species (which itself is simply called "Koopa," due to it being an odd case of character/species in Japan where there's no identical generic members other than with the derivatives) that just cannot fit in a single small section on this page, awkwardly crammed into a single monster paragraph and making it nigh-impossible to actually find the proper information in just a few moments. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Koopa (Bowser's species)|I have made a draft of a page dedicated to Bowser's species here]], which I think will solve this issue and the issue of the glaring lack of coverage on one of Nintendo's most iconic original species <small>that isn't a Pokémon</small>, as well as solve issues of repetitive information on the character pages. | There's a lot of information on Bowser's species (which itself is simply called "Koopa," due to it being an odd case of character/species in Japan where there's no identical generic members other than with the derivatives) that just cannot fit in a single small section on this page, awkwardly crammed into a single monster paragraph and making it nigh-impossible to actually find the proper information in just a few moments. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Koopa (Bowser's species)|I have made a draft of a page dedicated to Bowser's species here]], which I think will solve this issue and the issue of the glaring lack of coverage on one of Nintendo's most iconic original species <small>that isn't a Pokémon</small>, as well as solve issues of repetitive information on the character pages. | ||
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::::Sorry for figuratively butting in, but the [[Noko Bombette]] comes to mind, which the Perfect Edition of the overly long name says belongs to the "turtle clan", despite its only appearance being in Super Mario Land 2, where Bowser doesn't even appear. There are probably more examples like it, but yeah. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::Sorry for figuratively butting in, but the [[Noko Bombette]] comes to mind, which the Perfect Edition of the overly long name says belongs to the "turtle clan", despite its only appearance being in Super Mario Land 2, where Bowser doesn't even appear. There are probably more examples like it, but yeah. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::Oh, FYI, everyone: [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Turtle Tribe in relation to Koopa Troop|rumblings on what to do with Koopa clan have come up before.]] The conclusion that was reached was that the clan is a distinct entity from the army, and this has been confirmed several times, so it is not a "fan interpretation". Things just so happened that we didn't get around to reorganizing it yet. The species article we have now is the closest analogy to the concept of the clan, although as mentioned there, a fair bit of rewriting is in order to get it done. In short, the Koopa Troop is Bowser's army that can include other creatures such as Goombas and Boos, and the Turtle Tribe / ''Kame-zoku'' comprise of the loose group/"species" of turtles that are most commonly associated with the troops but have also occasionally been found unaffiliated with Bowser (in much the same way as there exist non-traitorous Goombas). And individually, Japanese ''kame'' tends to become English Koopa. So I put my full support behind that option. It's been a long time in the making. The option I didn't see coming is Bowser's species. I can agree to an article, but I think that the Japanese ''Koopa'' name is too indirect, or should at least come with a note. Then again, ''maybe'' there was originally distinction between "Koopa" and "''Daimaō'' Koopa"? It would explain why I always thought the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros.'' story text read awkwardly on that front. Mister Wu may be able to explore that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:53, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::Oh, FYI, everyone: [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Turtle Tribe in relation to Koopa Troop|rumblings on what to do with Koopa clan have come up before.]] The conclusion that was reached was that the clan is a distinct entity from the army, and this has been confirmed several times, so it is not a "fan interpretation". Things just so happened that we didn't get around to reorganizing it yet. The species article we have now is the closest analogy to the concept of the clan, although as mentioned there, a fair bit of rewriting is in order to get it done. In short, the Koopa Troop is Bowser's army that can include other creatures such as Goombas and Boos, and the Turtle Tribe / ''Kame-zoku'' comprise of the loose group/"species" of turtles that are most commonly associated with the troops but have also occasionally been found unaffiliated with Bowser (in much the same way as there exist non-traitorous Goombas). And individually, Japanese ''kame'' tends to become English Koopa. So I put my full support behind that option. It's been a long time in the making. The option I didn't see coming is Bowser's species. I can agree to an article, but I think that the Japanese ''Koopa'' name is too indirect, or should at least come with a note. Then again, ''maybe'' there was originally distinction between "Koopa" and "''Daimaō'' Koopa"? It would explain why I always thought the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros.'' story text read awkwardly on that front. Mister Wu may be able to explore that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:53, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::::The more I look at it, the more I'd say that 大ガメクッパの一族 means ''the tribe of the giant turtle Bowser'', {{ | :::::The more I look at it, the more I'd say that 大ガメクッパの一族 means ''the tribe of the giant turtle Bowser'', {{media link|PEGMCE page 193.png|the}} {{media link|SMBD pages 34 35.png|other}} {{media link|SMCE pages 88 89.png|books}} of the time were also very consistent at attributing クッパ to just Bowser, for the others we had カメ族 (worth noting that this tribe name was even used [https://ameblo.jp/gsball/entry-10891620941.html in that pretty surprising statement by Tezuka about Yoshi in the 20th Anniversary book]). I'd rather say that the [[Dorrie#Super Mario Odyssey|Dorrying]] of the クッパ species, if it really is a thing, happened because of the rename of the Koopalings, see my other comment about that.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 01:13, August 6, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::::"Koopa" is really the only name we have. And it has indeed been used repeatedly. Consider that the rest of the turtles are named for ''them'', not the other way around. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:50, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | :::::"Koopa" is really the only name we have. And it has indeed been used repeatedly. Consider that the rest of the turtles are named for ''them'', not the other way around. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:50, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::::Oh, I think the English title itself is fine; what I mean is insofar as the basic Japanese name, I'm not 100% about. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:39, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::::Oh, I think the English title itself is fine; what I mean is insofar as the basic Japanese name, I'm not 100% about. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:39, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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== Consider [[Yoshi (species)|Yoshi]]s a subtype == | == Consider [[Yoshi (species)|Yoshi]]s a subtype == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' contains the following line from [[Takashi Tezuka]] on {{media link|SMHAmerican SMW and SMAS.jpg|the ''Super Mario World'' section}}: | |||
''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' contains the following line from [[Takashi Tezuka]] on {{ | |||
:"Yoshi was originally meant to be a type of Koopa. That saddle you see on his back was actually his shell." | :"Yoshi was originally meant to be a type of Koopa. That saddle you see on his back was actually his shell." | ||
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#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, if there's officially a connection then I don't see why we should ignore it and much of the opposition here seems to stem from misunderstanding the proposal's points. | #{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, if there's officially a connection then I don't see why we should ignore it and much of the opposition here seems to stem from misunderstanding the proposal's points. | ||
#{{User|Blinker}} It's not like the concept of a "Koopa" is particularly well defined. It's pretty much used as an umbrella for turtles in the Mario series, seemingly on purpose. It even includes things like Spikes and (at least early on) Rocky Wrenches, where the turtle aspect mostly starts and stops at the shell. How many enemies in the series (not counting the Wario and DK games) are in the non-Koopa [[:Category:Turtles|Turtles]] category? The Earth Vellumental and [[Ocean Small Turtle|some mechanical turtle-shaped platform]]. That's it. Anyway, per proposal. | #{{User|Blinker}} It's not like the concept of a "Koopa" is particularly well defined. It's pretty much used as an umbrella for turtles in the Mario series, seemingly on purpose. It even includes things like Spikes and (at least early on) Rocky Wrenches, where the turtle aspect mostly starts and stops at the shell. How many enemies in the series (not counting the Wario and DK games) are in the non-Koopa [[:Category:Turtles|Turtles]] category? The Earth Vellumental and [[Ocean Small Turtle|some mechanical turtle-shaped platform]]. That's it. Anyway, per proposal. | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per what everyone else has been saying. Things change from their original concepts all the time, including relations between characters and even entire species; it's just a part of the creative process, and sometimes links between concepts get severed. Taking things from old concepts at face value like this is at best very silly, and at worst very irresponsible. | #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per what everyone else has been saying. Things change from their original concepts all the time, including relations between characters and even entire species; it's just a part of the creative process, and sometimes links between concepts get severed. Taking things from old concepts at face value like this is at best very silly, and at worst very irresponsible. | ||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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To the people asking: [https://ameblo.jp/gsball/entry-10891620941.html Tezuka explicitly mentioned the カメ族 (Turtle Tribe) in the 20th anniversary booklet], just like he does in the interview above. With that being said, while Yoshi being a turtle is starting to have gameplay relevance (case in point, him being grouped along with the turtles as a “driver wearing a shell” in ''Mario Kart Tour''), as far as I’m aware official bios, published after the Tezuka’s interviews that established Yoshi as a turtle, avoid mentioning this topic altogether.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:13, September 1, 2023 (EDT) | To the people asking: [https://ameblo.jp/gsball/entry-10891620941.html Tezuka explicitly mentioned the カメ族 (Turtle Tribe) in the 20th anniversary booklet], just like he does in the interview above. With that being said, while Yoshi being a turtle is starting to have gameplay relevance (case in point, him being grouped along with the turtles as a “driver wearing a shell” in ''Mario Kart Tour''), as far as I’m aware official bios, published after the Tezuka’s interviews that established Yoshi as a turtle, avoid mentioning this topic altogether.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:13, September 1, 2023 (EDT) | ||