Editing Talk:Koopa (species)
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== Split "{{fake link|Koopa (Bowser's species)}}" into its own article and rename this page to "Koopa (clan)" == | == Split "{{fake link|Koopa (Bowser's species)}}" into its own article and rename this page to "Koopa (clan)" == | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-11-3-1|split Bowser's species only}} | ||
There's a lot of information on Bowser's species (which itself is simply called "Koopa," due to it being an odd case of character/species in Japan where there's no identical generic members other than with the derivatives) that just cannot fit in a single small section on this page, awkwardly crammed into a single monster paragraph and making it nigh-impossible to actually find the proper information in just a few moments. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Koopa (Bowser's species)|I have made a draft of a page dedicated to Bowser's species here]], which I think will solve this issue and the issue of the glaring lack of coverage on one of Nintendo's most iconic original species <small>that isn't a Pokémon</small>, as well as solve issues of repetitive information on the character pages. | There's a lot of information on Bowser's species (which itself is simply called "Koopa," due to it being an odd case of character/species in Japan where there's no identical generic members other than with the derivatives) that just cannot fit in a single small section on this page, awkwardly crammed into a single monster paragraph and making it nigh-impossible to actually find the proper information in just a few moments. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Koopa (Bowser's species)|I have made a draft of a page dedicated to Bowser's species here]], which I think will solve this issue and the issue of the glaring lack of coverage on one of Nintendo's most iconic original species <small>that isn't a Pokémon</small>, as well as solve issues of repetitive information on the character pages. | ||
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::::Sorry for figuratively butting in, but the [[Noko Bombette]] comes to mind, which the Perfect Edition of the overly long name says belongs to the "turtle clan", despite its only appearance being in Super Mario Land 2, where Bowser doesn't even appear. There are probably more examples like it, but yeah. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::Sorry for figuratively butting in, but the [[Noko Bombette]] comes to mind, which the Perfect Edition of the overly long name says belongs to the "turtle clan", despite its only appearance being in Super Mario Land 2, where Bowser doesn't even appear. There are probably more examples like it, but yeah. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:12, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::Oh, FYI, everyone: [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Turtle Tribe in relation to Koopa Troop|rumblings on what to do with Koopa clan have come up before.]] The conclusion that was reached was that the clan is a distinct entity from the army, and this has been confirmed several times, so it is not a "fan interpretation". Things just so happened that we didn't get around to reorganizing it yet. The species article we have now is the closest analogy to the concept of the clan, although as mentioned there, a fair bit of rewriting is in order to get it done. In short, the Koopa Troop is Bowser's army that can include other creatures such as Goombas and Boos, and the Turtle Tribe / ''Kame-zoku'' comprise of the loose group/"species" of turtles that are most commonly associated with the troops but have also occasionally been found unaffiliated with Bowser (in much the same way as there exist non-traitorous Goombas). And individually, Japanese ''kame'' tends to become English Koopa. So I put my full support behind that option. It's been a long time in the making. The option I didn't see coming is Bowser's species. I can agree to an article, but I think that the Japanese ''Koopa'' name is too indirect, or should at least come with a note. Then again, ''maybe'' there was originally distinction between "Koopa" and "''Daimaō'' Koopa"? It would explain why I always thought the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros.'' story text read awkwardly on that front. Mister Wu may be able to explore that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:53, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::Oh, FYI, everyone: [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Turtle Tribe in relation to Koopa Troop|rumblings on what to do with Koopa clan have come up before.]] The conclusion that was reached was that the clan is a distinct entity from the army, and this has been confirmed several times, so it is not a "fan interpretation". Things just so happened that we didn't get around to reorganizing it yet. The species article we have now is the closest analogy to the concept of the clan, although as mentioned there, a fair bit of rewriting is in order to get it done. In short, the Koopa Troop is Bowser's army that can include other creatures such as Goombas and Boos, and the Turtle Tribe / ''Kame-zoku'' comprise of the loose group/"species" of turtles that are most commonly associated with the troops but have also occasionally been found unaffiliated with Bowser (in much the same way as there exist non-traitorous Goombas). And individually, Japanese ''kame'' tends to become English Koopa. So I put my full support behind that option. It's been a long time in the making. The option I didn't see coming is Bowser's species. I can agree to an article, but I think that the Japanese ''Koopa'' name is too indirect, or should at least come with a note. Then again, ''maybe'' there was originally distinction between "Koopa" and "''Daimaō'' Koopa"? It would explain why I always thought the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros.'' story text read awkwardly on that front. Mister Wu may be able to explore that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:53, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::::The more I look at it, the more I'd say that 大ガメクッパの一族 means ''the tribe of the giant turtle Bowser'', {{ | :::::The more I look at it, the more I'd say that 大ガメクッパの一族 means ''the tribe of the giant turtle Bowser'', {{media link|PEGMCE page 193.png|the}} {{media link|SMBD pages 34 35.png|other}} {{media link|SMCE pages 88 89.png|books}} of the time were also very consistent at attributing クッパ to just Bowser, for the others we had カメ族 (worth noting that this tribe name was even used [https://ameblo.jp/gsball/entry-10891620941.html in that pretty surprising statement by Tezuka about Yoshi in the 20th Anniversary book]). I'd rather say that the [[Dorrie#Super Mario Odyssey|Dorrying]] of the クッパ species, if it really is a thing, happened because of the rename of the Koopalings, see my other comment about that.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 01:13, August 6, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::::"Koopa" is really the only name we have. And it has indeed been used repeatedly. Consider that the rest of the turtles are named for ''them'', not the other way around. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:50, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | :::::"Koopa" is really the only name we have. And it has indeed been used repeatedly. Consider that the rest of the turtles are named for ''them'', not the other way around. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:50, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::::Oh, I think the English title itself is fine; what I mean is insofar as the basic Japanese name, I'm not 100% about. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:39, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ::::::Oh, I think the English title itself is fine; what I mean is insofar as the basic Japanese name, I'm not 100% about. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:39, August 2, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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== Consider [[Yoshi (species)|Yoshi]]s a subtype == | == Consider [[Yoshi (species)|Yoshi]]s a subtype == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' contains the following line from [[Takashi Tezuka]] on {{media link|SMHAmerican SMW and SMAS.jpg|the ''Super Mario World'' section}}: | |||
''[[Super Mario History 1985-2010]]'' contains the following line from [[Takashi Tezuka]] on {{ | |||
:"Yoshi was originally meant to be a type of Koopa. That saddle you see on his back was actually his shell." | :"Yoshi was originally meant to be a type of Koopa. That saddle you see on his back was actually his shell." | ||
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===Support=== | ===Support=== | ||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - ''Yosh! Yosh! Kururin-ha!'' | #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - ''Yosh! Yosh! Kururin-ha!'' | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
#{{user|Seandwalsh}} - While Tezuka seems pretty dead-set on Yoshi being a turtle I think it’s pretty clear that Yoshi himself isn’t a Koopa. He’s more commonly referred to as a Dinosaur or Dragon. The turtle idea may even be a holdover from the SMB Yoshi concept. Having a shell is not indicative of being a “turtle” in the world of Mario - just look at Conkdors, Spiked Goombas, Mario himself, even those new chipmunk things in Wonder. Koopa Shells have been considered clothing since the arcade. | #{{user|Seandwalsh}} - While Tezuka seems pretty dead-set on Yoshi being a turtle I think it’s pretty clear that Yoshi himself isn’t a Koopa. He’s more commonly referred to as a Dinosaur or Dragon. The turtle idea may even be a holdover from the SMB Yoshi concept. Having a shell is not indicative of being a “turtle” in the world of Mario - just look at Conkdors, Spiked Goombas, Mario himself, even those new chipmunk things in Wonder. Koopa Shells have been considered clothing since the arcade. | ||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per Seandwalsh, I feel this does rely a lot on it being an original concept, which doesn't necessarily mean he is in the final product. I've noticed you're saying how the developer primarily says "turtle" and not "Koopa" specifically, and "turtle" doesn't always mean "Koopa" (we certainly don't call the [[Earth Vellumental]] one). For mental reasons, I don't have it in me to debate any further on the matter so I'd really like to leave my involvement on this case here. | #{{User|Swallow}} Per Seandwalsh, I feel this does rely a lot on it being an original concept, which doesn't necessarily mean he is in the final product. I've noticed you're saying how the developer primarily says "turtle" and not "Koopa" specifically, and "turtle" doesn't always mean "Koopa" (we certainly don't call the [[Earth Vellumental]] one). For mental reasons, I don't have it in me to debate any further on the matter so I'd really like to leave my involvement on this case here. | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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::I meant where they're stated to be the shells of turtles specifically; I know they've been called shells several times. The use of "kora" instead of "kara" is an interesting point but I wouldn't call it explicit confirmation that they're turtles. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 16:31, August 30, 2023 (EDT) | ::I meant where they're stated to be the shells of turtles specifically; I know they've been called shells several times. The use of "kora" instead of "kara" is an interesting point but I wouldn't call it explicit confirmation that they're turtles. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 16:31, August 30, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/kids/character/yoshi/index.html The (official of course) Japanese "Nintendo Kids" site] says that he's like both a dinosaur and a turtle (specifically, they say they can't tell which). A transcription with a translation is on the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics|profiles & statistics]] page [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd._site|here]]. And as previously said, Tezuka's pretty adamant to this day he's a turtle -with- a shell, which I've linked multiple times (and there's more instances of that). I'd say that's evidence enough. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, August 30, 2023 (EDT) | :::[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/kids/character/yoshi/index.html The (official of course) Japanese "Nintendo Kids" site] says that he's like both a dinosaur and a turtle (specifically, they say they can't tell which). A transcription with a translation is on the [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics|profiles & statistics]] page [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Kids section of Nintendo Co., Ltd._site|here]]. And as previously said, Tezuka's pretty adamant to this day he's a turtle -with- a shell, which I've linked multiple times (and there's more instances of that). I'd say that's evidence enough. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, August 30, 2023 (EDT) | ||