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| == Split the statues off == | | == Split the statues off == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|7-0|split}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|7-0|split}} |
| OK, so for starters, there is ''explicitly'' only one rideable Jaxi. He used to be atop the Inverted Pyramid, but you meet him in Jaxi Ruins, pay to ride him, and never have to pay again. If you ''could'' ride others, I ''doubt'' that they'd accept you paying another to ride them for free. The "species" is a bunch of immobile statues in some gargoyle-like state of dormancy. You can't interact with them beyond getting a Moon by Cappy-twirling a specific one's tail and bringing the ''specific'' Jaxi to one. | | OK, so for starters, there is ''explicitly'' only one rideable Jaxi. He used to be atop the Inverted Pyramid, but you meet him in Jaxi Ruins, pay to ride him, and never have to pay again. If you ''could'' ride others, I ''doubt'' that they'd accept you paying another to ride them for free. The "species" is a bunch of immobile statues in some gargoyle-like state of dormancy. You can't interact with them beyond getting a Moon by Cappy-twirling a specific one's tail and bringing the ''specific'' Jaxi to one. |
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| I was going to initiate this proposal, but I have personal objections before I try to follow through: making a distinction within this Jaxi article is enough. I don't think we need to emphasize one can be interacted more than the others by having the inconvenience of two pages that will contain a lot of duplicate information. That being said, I still do have problems with these character/species distinctions that I feel the series overall takes a very loose approach to, but Jaxi doesn't have much of a strong case and I believe having information on the statues and information on the one that's rideable in one easily-searched page is better than having a two articles linked by a set of distinguish templates and show up as two pages on the navigational templates and categories and whatnot. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:00, December 12, 2020 (EST) | | I was going to initiate this proposal, but I have personal objections before I try to follow through: making a distinction within this Jaxi article is enough. I don't think we need to emphasize one can be interacted more than the others by having the inconvenience of two pages that will contain a lot of duplicate information. That being said, I still do have problems with these character/species distinctions that I feel the series overall takes a very loose approach to, but Jaxi doesn't have much of a strong case and I believe having information on the statues and information on the one that's rideable in one easily-searched page is better than having a two articles linked by a set of distinguish templates and show up as two pages on the navigational templates and categories and whatnot. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:00, December 12, 2020 (EST) |
| :The problem is that with most character/species things, there's no real difference between them, but with this one, they're as different as can be, with only one having any real indication of being even able to move or speak at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:19, December 12, 2020 (EST)
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| ::Lore describes it as being able to move and speak which makes this individual separate from the others, but practically, it's a Jaxi. Keeping information in one page does not remove its identity, and we can have a paragraph or two saying there's one of them that can be ridden. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:24, December 12, 2020 (EST)
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| :::Problem with ''that'' is that aside from the brochure description, the game otherwise treats the Jaxi as a distinct character, and unlike other character/species the depiction tends to change on a whim, ''as of right now'' both are unique to one game and very cleanly divided within it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:28, December 12, 2020 (EST)
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| I come armed with... information (probably brochure stuff?? let me know if it's just that). As a result, I'm not so sure. I've seen this one as just an member of the statues but not distinct enough that separate page is needed compared to a short section. ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' does repeatedly refer to Jaxi interchangeably between one and an indefinite plural, with one referral to an individual, going as far to call this a "he".
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| *The Jaxi Ruins (p. 109): "''The Jaxi Ruins are filled with a deadly poison goo that only the Jaxis themselves can traverse''", note the plural.
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| *P. 110, designer's note: "''The statues sitting atop the Inverted Pyramid bear a striking resemblance to the Jaxis. What's more, there are five statues standing where six should be. I wonder...''"
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| *However p. 111: "''Stone statues: Placed on corners. One is missing. The missing one could have a backstory where it acts as a means of transportation.''". Again, note plural, but also interesting to suggest a difference between the statues and the moving thing. Jaxi does refer to the creatures moving around, and the statues seem to be just a resemblance to them? This is an early developer note on an earlier design of a pyramid, however.
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| *Jaxi bio p. 116: "''A stone statue that dashes with reckless speed when Mario hops on its back. Pay thirty coins once, and you can ride these as much as you like.''" Again, note indefinite plural, "these".
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| *Tips, p. 117: "''A Quick Trip, a Jaxi Jaunt: The Jaxis run at full throttle when ridden, making them the best way to cross the burning desert. The enemies that only appear at night can't stand up to their fierce charge, and poison puddles are no match for their speed. There are even ruins you can only reach on Jaxi-back.<br>Jaxis are made of study stuff. Obstacles are no problem, as this reliable steed charges through everything with ease.<br>They say the Jaxi has some 'friends' near the Desert Oasis. He speaks of how things used to be in Tostarena.''"
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| *Jaxi Stand, p. 117. "''A spot you can call a Jaxi from. There are several of these stands throughout Tostarena.''" Uses indefinite article "a".
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| There is only one instance where there's indication of an individual and there's this gendering, too, but it also contradicts with a bio that refers to Jaxi as "it" and "these". But this frequent referral to the plural, as if multiple Jaxis can run around, and only one definite description for the individual makes me feel it's probably more practical to stick to one page. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:46, December 12, 2020 (EST)
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| :It's pretty clear we have fundamentally different viewpoints on this subject, though I still feel that, until when and if multiple are explicitly shown to be able to move at will and not just possibly-translation-lost mentions alleging this, it's no more merge-worthy than Flutter. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:41, December 12, 2020 (EST)
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| ::Evidence suggests otherwise (this is far from a Wiggler/Flutter case; drastic different appearance, two different names, basically caterpillar/butterfly vs statue/statue that moves), supports my case for ambiguity and keeping the subject in a page acknowledges the ambiguity, and I don't think that evidence meets the burden of proof for page split. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 23:29, December 12, 2020 (EST)
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| :::As I noted above, the Prima guide gives a separate name for Jaxi Statues, and that corresponds with the Japanese name also mentioned by SmokedChili, so I'm inclined to believe the plurality inconsistency is just an out-of-context translation error. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 03:10, December 13, 2020 (EST)
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| ::::The book also talks as if the statue resembles Jaxi, at a concept art note. I'm not really convinced that the plurality involved is a translation error (though that "he" pronoun is inconsistent) as opposed to an interpretation, especially when the plural also figures in-game nor I am I sure really what context is being removed. Some of those quotes are taken from the sidebars and such, not from concept art notes. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 04:33, December 13, 2020 (EST)
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| :::::The plural may be in-game (in the English text at least), though in fairness, we don't exactly know how long ago the brochure was printed. I also don't know much about a Japanese version of the artbook, but this still looks more like a reverse-Toad/Yoshi situation. EDIT: Well, upon closer inspection, there seem to actually be three types of Jaxis - the main rideable Jaxi (referred to as "Raidon Bus" in Japanese), the five Jaxi statues on the Inverted Pyramid, and the Jaxi Statue souvenir that appears to be a replica of the second. I presume this is where SmokedChili sourced the Japanese name. The English description reads as follows: "''In the Tostarena region, the Jaxi has lived alongside the people since ancient times. This statue is made from the stones of the ruins!''" <s>Can someone check the Japanese text for me?</s> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RCg_0Zu-q8&t=56s Here] is the Japanese text, referring to it as 「ライドン・バス像」 (Raidon Bus Statue). It basically translates to the same thing except the names were localized, notably Raiden Bus becoming Jaxi. Still though, I think it's pretty obvious there is mainly one active Jaxi left by the time Mario enters the Sand Kingdom (maybe two if you count the Jaxi that appears within Jaxi Ruins as a separate one since you can't take it outside, supported by the Prima guide and the fact that it's located ahead of Mario's spawn point, but it's implied to be the same one the player probably entered with), given the brief history it has as the missing statue on the Inverted Pyramid. However, for reference, the game's Prima guide is inconsistent on whether Jaxi is singular or plural. That also leaves the question of the source of SmokedChili's Japanese name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:59, December 13, 2020 (EST)
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| Luckily, I have the Japanese edition of ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'', here are the corresponding Japanese sentences:
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| '''Page 109'''
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| <blockquote>
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| ライドン遺跡は毒の池で満たされているため、ライドン・バスに乗って進んでいく
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| </blockquote>
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| '''Page 110'''
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| <blockquote>
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| さかさピラミッドの上に配置された像は、ライドン・バスにそっくりですが…6体設置されているうちの1体が足りません。まさか…？
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| </blockquote>
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| '''Page 111'''
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| <blockquote>
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| 石造
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| 隅に配置。1匹欠けている。それが乗り物として動いている裏設定・・という案が出ています。
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| </blockquote>
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| '''Page 116'''
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| <blockquote>
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| ライドン・バス
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| 背中に乗ると猛スピードで疾走する石像。コイン30枚を一度支払えば乗り放題となる。
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| </blockquote>
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| '''Page 117'''
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| <blockquote>
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| ライドン・バス乗り場
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| ライドン・バスを呼ぶことができる。アッチーニャ内に何か所か存在する。
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| </blockquote>
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| '''Page 117 TIPS'''
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| <blockquote>
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| 快適な砂漠の移動にライドン・バス
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| ひとたび乗れば猛スピードで走り出すライドン・バスは、広い砂漠を移動するのに最適な乗り物。夜の砂漠に出没する敵を体当たりでなぎ倒し、毒の沼の上も平然と駆け抜ける心強い存在。ライドン・バスに乗って進む遺跡もある。
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| ライドン・バスは丈夫。障害物もものともせず、平然と駆け抜ける様はとても頼もしい
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| オアシスの近くには、友だと語る石像がいる。過去の事情をうかがい知れる
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| </blockquote>
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| Most of the times, the ''Raidon Bus'' (「ライドン・バス」) is what is being referred to when speaking of ''Jaxi'' and as usual, it's not really possible to tell whether the word is singular or plural or even a proper noun or just a species noun without the context (e.g. 「ライドン・バス」 can both be used to refer to ''Jaxi'' as a proper noun and to say ''a Jaxi''), hence the inconsistency in the translation.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:08, December 13, 2020 (EST)
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| :It doesn't really clear up much for me. I still don't think the evidence is strong enough to suggest a separate character. The evidence appears to boil down to how we should interpret the Japanese text, and if we agree or not if the translators did an accurate job (which I assume we have to take their word for it considering the repeated plural referrals). I'd like to have input from more users about how to go with this. A proposal might be necessary, but for the time being, the page still has to be split according to the older proposal. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 22:13, December 13, 2020 (EST)
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| ::Maybe a rough translation might help:
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| ::'''Page 109'''
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| ::''[The] Raidon Ruins are packed with poisonous ponds, so take [the] Raidon Bus to proceed''
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| ::'''Page 110'''
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| ::''The statues arranged on [the] top of [the] Inverted Pyramid are like [the] Raidon Bus, but one of [the] six that were installed is missing. Why that is?''
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| ::'''Page 111'''
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| ::''Stone statues''
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| ::''Placed on corners. One is missing. There seems to be a hint that [it] works as a ride behind the scenes.''
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| ::'''Page 116'''
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| ::''Raidon Bus''
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| ::''Stone statue that sprints at great speed when riding on the back. Once [you] pay 30 Coins, [you] can ride as much as you want.''
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| ::'''Page 117'''
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| ::''Raidon Bus Stop''
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| ::''You can call [the] Raidon Bus. [They] are in several places in Acchīnya.''
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| ::'''Page 117 TIPS'''
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| ::''Raidon Bus for a comfortable desert traveling''
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| ::''Once you start running at great speed on [the] Raidon Bus, [it]'s the best ride to travel on [the] vast desert. [It] defeats the enemies that appear often in [the] desert at night by ramming into them, [it] runs without any problem on [the] poisonous ponds. There are ruins you can go through by riding on [the] Raidon Bus.''
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| ::''[The] Raidon Bus is strong. [It] seems very reliable to run through comfortably, without any hurdle.''
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| ::''Near the oasis, there is [a] stone statue that says to be a friend. When asking [it], [the] past circumstances will be known.''
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| ::I added the brackets to stress how these pronouns are missing in Japanese, you need to guess them by the context. Honestly, going by the Japanese text, there's no particular evidence that there is more than one ''Raidon Bus'', the others are just referred to as ''statues''. It's interesting to note how the ''Raidon Ruins'' are not named ''Raidon Bus Ruins'', leading to a difference between ''Raidon'' and ''Raidon Bus'' that is lost in translation.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:02, December 17, 2020 (EST)
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| :::Is this matter fully resolved or still up for discussion? I replayed ''Super Mario Odyssey'' very recently. While I am unsure if it is necessary to maintain the split, and it apparent that the stone statues are his kin, the game strongly presents the rideable "Jaxi" as an individual, and I think when covering a topic on the wiki, the source material should be prioritized over external references. For this specific case, I'd hesitate to fully trust the English edition of ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' because, unlike the Japanese release, the book was not closely overseen by Nintendo so it can be a situation where topics were misinterpreted without overseeing clarification from what the developers intended (i.e. it is {{wp|paratext}}). The article as written still describes Jaxi as if there are multiple and this is something I think should be resolved. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:52, April 12, 2021 (EDT)
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