Editing Talk:Island

==Scope==
{{talk}}
[[File:Vanilla Dome 4.png|thumb]]
I think the non-vegetable things in this image are the same basic subject as these, as the resident flat-topped ambiguous island/tree-like platforms for athletic stages. They even have a similar design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:20, February 20, 2025 (EST)
:I struggle including it because [[Piston Lift]]s appear to be made out of the same assets, and we know from their names in Japan that they are a legitimate type of [[Mushroom Platform]]. I think the reality is that the abandoned using the [[island]] in favor of Mushroom Platforms (which are just as old as they are) and other Semisolid Platforms. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:37, February 20, 2025 (EST)
::The dotted sprites used here certainly make me think of a mushroom platform rather than a grassy island plateau. They simply have bulky stalks.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 00:43, February 20, 2025 (EST)
:::''Maker'' has both them as the Semisolid Platform for SMW alongside Mushroom Platforms that use similar tiles, though - with thin stalks, like Piston Lifts have. They seem to see them as separate objects from Mushroom Platforms because of that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:49, February 20, 2025 (EST)
<gallery>
SMM SMW Overworld SSPlatform1.png|"Semisolid Platform"
SMM-SMW-MushroomPlatform-1.png|"Mushroom Platform"
</gallery>
[[File:SMM2-NSMBU-MushroomPlatform-AS.png|thumb|80px|SMM2 NSMU Airship "Mushroom Platform"]]
::::I think that's more of a functional restriction than a statement of intent - The Mushroom Platforms in SMM ''have'' to be flat platforms with 1-block wide stalks in every game style. In order to represent these wider platforms, they have to be implemented as the more generic Semisolid Platforms that display as full boxes. An inverse example also applies to the airship theme in the NSMBU style, where Mushroom Platforms are replaced with umbrella-like platforms because their centered "posts" can only be implemented as Mushroom Platform stems.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 01:06, February 20, 2025 (EST)
:::::The SMW objects don't really -look- like mushrooms, though, mostly because of the "stems" - which again, can't be said for the much thinner Piston Lift, which is much more believable. I, for one, never saw them as mushrooms, they just looked like stylized clifftops to me. And of course, this is the same game that had [[Big Boo]] and [[Big Bubble]] made from the same base tiles, and they have no conceptual "basis" in common. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:14, February 20, 2025 (EST)
::::::I think I understand what you're talking about. Maybe it would be accurate to say the Island is in ''Super Mario World'' - it is just that this specific incarnation seems to be a type of Mushroom Platform (not the literal same exact one, but a type). But at that point, wouldn't it be a Mushroom Platform directly given Islands and Mushroom Platforms are essentially two different looks for the same type of platform?
::::::I think I overall agree with PopitTart. ''Super Mario Maker'' generally breaks various design and stylistic choices in the other games for the intent of maintaining some visual iconography for each game's style. Neither Islands nor Mushroom Platforms even were Semisolid Platforms in their debut title, for example, but given their ubiquity it makes sense that they would want to use them in some capacity for ''Super Mario Maker''. I think the use of the former in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' style specifically is more comparable to - say - using the appearance of [[Deep Cheep]]s for the Green Cheep Cheeps in the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' style, and does not on its own mean it is ontologically the same subject as the Semisolid Platform that appears in the ''Super Mario World'' style.
::::::It is understandable (at least to me, given my background) if the sticking point is that they physiologically look too "different" from actual mushrooms to believe they are the same thing. However, I remind myself that : 1.) developers and artists are not bound by the the real world biological limitations that their creations are based on, especially given Nintendo is informed by utilitarian design philosophies; 2.) there is another type of Mushroom Platform that looks [[:File:SM3DW Big Bounce Byway.png|even less like a mushroom]]; 3.) real mushrooms can be [https://cdn.britannica.com/19/158119-050-4DEA283E/porcini-mushrooms-number-Northern-Hemisphere-tree-species.jpg broad stalked], and frankly I can see the implication that these platforms in ''Super Mario World'' are supposed to be like the side profile of a [https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/tan-spotted-shelf-fungus-no-stump-vista-aproximada-de-uma-prateleira-pintada-fungos-crescendo-em-um-toco-com-fundo-ch%C3%A3o-da-164942359.jpg shelf fungus coming out of a log], or something like that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 01:30, February 20, 2025 (EST)

Well, apparently I just can't see that as being a mush, though given [[Mushrise Park]] and its "mushrooms" that look like jellyfish polyps, I guess it's not too much of a stretch. On a related note, how about these platforms from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''? I already linked to Island when describing these images. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:55, February 20, 2025 (EST)
<gallery style="--bg:#B5EBF2;">
SMB3 Island athletic small.png|Similar shape
SMB3 Island athletic big.png|Similar role
SMB3 Island ice.png|Similar design
</gallery>
:I noticed! I think it is reasonable to consider these wooden platforms to be Islands and I support including them in the article. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 03:26, February 20, 2025 (EST)
:Ehh... to me I feel like this is straying a bit much. "Those weird grassy-hill or maybe tree things in SMB1" makes sense to have an article about, especially with a source naming them "Islands". But these platforms have a totally different look more akin to the wooden blocks and lifts in SMB3, and not at all like grass or leaves. (That is except for the snow-level one I suppose, but it seems even more inscrutable than the original islands in a different manner) If they don't have a source calling them islands, I wouldn't want to cover them here. Seems more like just distinct-looking terrain.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 03:47, February 20, 2025 (EST)
::I think this is giving too much weight to the individual stylistic choices made in individual games, and less about the function recurring subjects serve. ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' is stylistically designed to invoke stage props, so it does not really matter to me in this context that it is made of wood. It mechanically is identical and appears in the athletic courses of the game. Why wouldn't it be an Island? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 04:21, February 20, 2025 (EST)
:::It certainly is mechanically the same, but I'm just not picturing "Island" as actually referring to the distinct Athletic level platform, just the, well, ''islands''. 

:::Imagine for a moment if an official guide for SMB1 named these blocks here: [[File:SMM2 Ground SMB icon.png|32px]] something like "Shattered Stones". It'd make sense make an article about them, but then if someone comes along and sees these: [[File:SMM2 Ground SMW icon.png|32px]] and says "well, they clearly serve very much of the same purpose as Shattered Stones, They're basically the same thing with an artstyle change", that would just sound silly to me. That's not shattered stone! I don't think its appropriate to expand "Island" to refer to "Athletic platforms" in general, for one because that concept is quite broad, and for two most signs point to the name "island" being a mere descriptor for the way the SMB1 platforms look like tiny islands. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:07, February 20, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 16: / Line 16: @@
 ::::::I think I overall agree with PopitTart. ''Super Mario Maker'' generally breaks various design and stylistic choices in the other games for the intent of maintaining some visual iconography for each game's style. Neither Islands nor Mushroom Platforms even were Semisolid Platforms in their debut title, for example, but given their ubiquity it makes sense that they would want to use them in some capacity for ''Super Mario Maker''. I think the use of the former in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' style specifically is more comparable to - say - using the appearance of [[Deep Cheep]]s for the Green Cheep Cheeps in the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' style, and does not on its own mean it is ontologically the same subject as the Semisolid Platform that appears in the ''Super Mario World'' style.
 ::::::It is understandable (at least to me, given my background) if the sticking point is that they physiologically look too "different" from actual mushrooms to believe they are the same thing. However, I remind myself that : 1.) developers and artists are not bound by the the real world biological limitations that their creations are based on, especially given Nintendo is informed by utilitarian design philosophies; 2.) there is another type of Mushroom Platform that looks [[:File:SM3DW Big Bounce Byway.png|even less like a mushroom]]; 3.) real mushrooms can be [https://cdn.britannica.com/19/158119-050-4DEA283E/porcini-mushrooms-number-Northern-Hemisphere-tree-species.jpg broad stalked], and frankly I can see the implication that these platforms in ''Super Mario World'' are supposed to be like the side profile of a [https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/tan-spotted-shelf-fungus-no-stump-vista-aproximada-de-uma-prateleira-pintada-fungos-crescendo-em-um-toco-com-fundo-ch%C3%A3o-da-164942359.jpg shelf fungus coming out of a log], or something like that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 01:30, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-[[File:SMWEdibleDolphin.png|thumb|One of those funky new mangrove mushrooms?]]
-:::::::This platform is outright coming out of water and has grass growing on it, though, I don't know how that one can be seen as a mushroom. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:19, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-::::::::[[:File:NSMBU 5-7 Coin 3.jpg|I'm not sure that matters]]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:12, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::::Those at least resemble mushrooms and are fairly exclusive to athletic/"mushroom" levels despite having similar properties in that regard. [shrug] I look at this image and I see a literal island. The stacking part looking like stone or bark and them only appearing green-topped adds to that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:45, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-::::::::::I'm just going to add: does it really matter whether they are literally islands or not? This page already covers platforms from Super Mario Land that are clearly supposed to be some kind of palm tree. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:07, February 21, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::::::I don't think so, but I think it does matter if it is a mushroom because an Island that looks like a mushroom... is literally what a [[Mushroom Platform]] is. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:23, February 21, 2025 (EST)
-::::::::::::I still think it looks more like an actual island or a stylized tree than a mushroom, myself. I think it's notable that they are always green in SMW, contrasting the [[daikon]] platforms whose leaves appear in a variety of colors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:19, February 21, 2025 (EST)
 Well, apparently I just can't see that as being a mush, though given [[Mushrise Park]] and its "mushrooms" that look like jellyfish polyps, I guess it's not too much of a stretch. On a related note, how about these platforms from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''? I already linked to Island when describing these images. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:55, February 20, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 36: / Line 29: @@
 :::Imagine for a moment if an official guide for SMB1 named these blocks here: [[File:SMM2 Ground SMB icon.png|32px]] something like "Shattered Stones". It'd make sense make an article about them, but then if someone comes along and sees these: [[File:SMM2 Ground SMW icon.png|32px]] and says "well, they clearly serve very much of the same purpose as Shattered Stones, They're basically the same thing with an artstyle change", that would just sound silly to me. That's not shattered stone! I don't think its appropriate to expand "Island" to refer to "Athletic platforms" in general, for one because that concept is quite broad, and for two most signs point to the name "island" being a mere descriptor for the way the SMB1 platforms look like tiny islands. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:07, February 20, 2025 (EST)
-::::I understand what you mean, though I do not think your example is particularly great because [[File:SMM2 Ground SMB icon.png|32px]] and [[File:SMM2 Ground SMW icon.png|32px]] ''are'' the same thing, and if we were in a scenario like the one you describe, I would probably make the effort to track down a more serviceable name, but I would still prioritize having them share the same article because they are the same thing. The name we have is not "the thing itself."
-::::I am not even inclined to do that in this case because : 1.) the aesthetic of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' objects is "stage prop," and I know from my experience as a stagehand that it is not uncommon for objects in the implied landscape to be made out of wood; 2.) there are wooden objects called [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/0d/1a/de0d1a14206fcf96883cc4b2551c554e.jpg islands]; and 3.) I honestly never thought the original platform from ''Super Mario Bros.'' looked like islands to begin with. When I played the game, I assumed they were trees, and the fact that there is an official name for the object has only emphasized how unusual they look.
-::::I think we generally lump object subjects more often than we should, and in a way we would never do for characters or enemies. But, in this case, I really think these are the same thing and it would be a more accurate reflection of their history for them to be in the same article. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 07:47, February 20, 2025 (EST)