Editing Talk:Iron Cleft

==Merge with The Iron Adonis Twins==
{{TPP}}
Per [[SMW:Once and only once]], this article is quite redundant with the text of [[Armored Harriers]], which contains essentially the same information at the moment, even including the two Iron Clefts' stats. While the Armored Harriers aren't unique in being enemies exclusive to the [[Glitz Pit]] (the [[Tiny Spinies]], [[KP Koopas]], and [[Punk Rocks]] are other examples), they are uniquely story-relevant unlike those teams, are treated as mini-bosses and unique characters by the game (including separate Tattle Log entries for the two members owing to their slightly different designs), and frankly this article has little unique to offer as a result. I do think that there is an argument for merging the other aforementioned teams containing unique enemies as well, but there are more pitfalls there, such as the [[Magikoopa Masters]] containing unique enemies who previously appeared in ''[[Paper Mario]]'' on the N64, for example, or several of the later teams containing enemies that otherwise only appear in the [[Pit of 100 Trials (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|Pit of 100 Trials]], so I will restrict this proposal to the Iron Clefts, at least for the time being.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Merge Iron Cleft with The Iron Adonis Twins===
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} permored proposier
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per how we treat enemies such as the [[Red & Blue Goomba Bros.]] Though a species, it's a species that consists of only two individuals that are ''technically'' considered separate characters in the tattle log (specifically, the green-shoed one is additionally speculated to be the younger brother). We haven't split any other enemy articles into one covering story role and one covering battle mechanics, so I don't see what the difference is here. I would even go as far as to merge the [[KP Koopa]]s with... the [[KP Koopas]] for similar reasons.<br><small>And before anyone brings up "searchability", redirects do show up in the search bar. We can merge these articles into a more convenient form, and still link to the species when necessary as a redirect, so nothing should change for the worse in practice.</small>

===Merge The Iron Adonis Twins with Iron Cleft===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal + comments below that this'd make more sense overall--either way, one of these ought to merge into the other.
#{{User|Tails777}} Primary option. Despite not fully being on board with merging them, I can see the valid points made. Everything can truthfully be told on one article, which would make sense. And if anything, I feel it's better to stick with the name of the enemy rather than the name of the team.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per everyone (collectively)

===Don't merge===
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary option. Truth be told, I'm not entirely on board with merging them, despite the valid points made. The Armored Harriers article does well to explain what the two Iron Clefts do from a story standpoint while the Iron Cleft article does what it needs to do to talk about the Iron Cleft.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Either option would create a weird inconsistency in our TTYD coverage. Either Iron Cleft is the only enemy without its own page, or the Armored Harriers are the only Glitz Pit team without a page. The current situation is fine, Iron Cleft describes the enemy type and Armored Harriers is more about the characters and their role in the story. If anything, the enemy stats could be removed from the Glitz Pit teams across the board to cut down on redundancy.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Waluigi Time, I don't think the similarity of the two articles alone is a good enough reason to merge them.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all. Also I've moved the Armored Harriers article to "The Iron Adonis Twins" due to what I said in my comment, so this proposal may need some name changing.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Waluigi Time. I agree with the suggestion to remove enemy stats from the team pages to reduce redundancy, but I think it would be inconsistent to have this be the only case of the Glitz Pit team and enemies being merged, especially since it is not the only case of the enemy being exclusive to the Glitz Pit.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.

===Comments===
I feel that it should be the other way around, merging Armored Harriers to Iron Cleft, as the Armored Harriers are a team name while Iron Clefts are the actual enemies. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:I see the Armored Harriers as the name of the characters, and it's the primary name they're referred to as in-game, with "Iron Cleft" only appearing in battle if I'm not mistaken. If [[Rawk Hawk]]'s species was said to be, say, "Birdman", I think it's fairly unlikely that we'd have a Birdman article separate from Rawk Hawk's, let alone having "Birdman" as the primary article title. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 17:16, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
:EDIT: That said, I'll add this as an option for the proposal. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 17:18, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
::They are still listed as Iron Clefts in the Tattle Log as well, hence why I prefer the idea of keeping Iron Cleft as the main article name, as that's the enemy name, rather than the title given to both of them as a group. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

Haven't decided on a vote on this proposal but there is something important I should bring up. In the remake, "Iron Adonis Twins" is their main name and I haven't caught a glimpse of the "Armored Harriers" name. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 19:41, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
:May as well update, "Armored Harriers" is the name they're introduced as in the remake, which in the original "Iron Adonis Twins" was. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 11:32, May 24, 2024 (EDT)
::Updated. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:38, May 24, 2024 (EDT)

I think it should be noted in this proposal, that considering the massive instant success this game has achieved, it's not unlikely that Intelligent Systems will roll back many of the decisions that resulted in ''Sticker Star''-through-''The Origami King'' (after all, it's money that matters, not stymieing creative control)... and as such, there's a real possibility that Iron Clefts could reappear in the future independently. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:27, May 23, 2024 (EDT)
:I definitely hear this, but I'd rather cross that bridge when we come to it, personally. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:38, May 24, 2024 (EDT)
::Personally, I'd be more comfortable merging Craw-Daddy with Dark Craw and Koopinator to Dark Koopatrol, since they're treated interchangeably in the language-of-origin (plus several others) here. But still, to keep the Glitz ranking thing, we probably shouldn't unless we change the format a bit. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:01, May 24, 2024 (EDT)

{{@|Waluigi Time}}: I definitely hear you regarding removing enemy stats from the Glitz Pit team pages. I will probably make a proposal for that after this one ends. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:38, May 24, 2024 (EDT)

{{@|DrippingYellow}} I'm not sure what you mean by comparing this to the Goomba Bros. "Red Goomba" and "Blue Goomba" aren't species. They're the characters' actual (if not very creative) names. As for the KP Koopas, that doesn't make much sense, considering only two of three members of the team are normal KP Koopas in the first place, the third being a [[KP Paratroopa]] instead. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:03, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
:It's not that Red and Blue Goombas are species, it's that the Iron Cleft "species" consists of only two members, neither of which are treated as the exact same entity. They both have the same generic name, but so do other character pairs such as the "[[Hammer Bro#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|L33T HAMM3R BROZ.]]" We also don't, for instance, split the [[Smorg]]s that comprise the large conglomerate of the same name simply because they are referred to as a species, whereas ''the'' Smorg is a boss. The [[KP Koopa]]s are an extremely similar situation, only they don't even have unique attributes other than being part of the KP Koopas; they are explicitly referred to in-game as regular Koopas that have dyed their shell. They are even identical to Koopa Troopas stat-wise (seemingly aside from interactions with certain items). The KP Koopas and [[KP Paratroopa]] ''are'' the [[KP Koopas]]. The Iron Clefts ''are'' the Iron Adonis Twins. It doesn't get much closer to pointlessly repeating/splitting information than this. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 17:35, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Merge with The Iron Adonis Twins==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|4-3-11|Don't merge}}
+Per [[SMW:Once and only once]], this article is quite redundant with the text of [[Armored Harriers]], which contains essentially the same information at the moment, even including the two Iron Clefts' stats. While the Armored Harriers aren't unique in being enemies exclusive to the [[Glitz Pit]] (the [[Tiny Spinies]], [[KP Koopas]], and [[Punk Rocks]] are other examples), they are uniquely story-relevant unlike those teams, are treated as mini-bosses and unique characters by the game (including separate Tattle Log entries for the two members owing to their slightly different designs), and frankly this article has little unique to offer as a result. I do think that there is an argument for merging the other aforementioned teams containing unique enemies as well, but there are more pitfalls there, such as the [[Magikoopa Masters]] containing unique enemies who previously appeared in ''[[Paper Mario]]'' on the N64, for example, or several of the later teams containing enemies that otherwise only appear in the [[Pit of 100 Trials (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|Pit of 100 Trials]], so I will restrict this proposal to the Iron Clefts, at least for the time being.
-Per [[SMW:Once and only once]], this article is quite redundant with the text of [[The Iron Adonis Twins]], which contains essentially the same information at the moment, even including the two Iron Clefts' stats. While the Armored Harriers aren't unique in being enemies exclusive to the [[Glitz Pit]] (the [[Tiny Spinies]], [[KP Koopas]], and [[Punk Rocks]] are other examples), they are uniquely story-relevant unlike those teams, are treated as mini-bosses and unique characters by the game (including separate Tattle Log entries for the two members owing to their slightly different designs), and frankly this article has little unique to offer as a result. I do think that there is an argument for merging the other aforementioned teams containing unique enemies as well, but there are more pitfalls there, such as the [[Magikoopa Masters]] containing unique enemies who previously appeared in ''[[Paper Mario]]'' on the N64, for example, or several of the later teams containing enemies that otherwise only appear in the [[Pit of 100 Trials (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|Pit of 100 Trials]], so I will restrict this proposal to the Iron Clefts, at least for the time being.
-EDIT: I created a draft for the merged page. I think it demonstrates that nothing of value is lost by these pages being merged: [[User:Pseudo/The Iron Adonis Twins draft]]
 '''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br>
@@ Line 13: / Line 10: @@
 #{{User|EvieMaybe}} permored proposier
 #{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per how we treat enemies such as the [[Red & Blue Goomba Bros.]] Though a species, it's a species that consists of only two individuals that are ''technically'' considered separate characters in the tattle log (specifically, the green-shoed one is additionally speculated to be the younger brother). We haven't split any other enemy articles into one covering story role and one covering battle mechanics, so I don't see what the difference is here. I would even go as far as to merge the [[KP Koopa]]s with... the [[KP Koopas]] for similar reasons.<br><small>And before anyone brings up "searchability", redirects do show up in the search bar. We can merge these articles into a more convenient form, and still link to the species when necessary as a redirect, so nothing should change for the worse in practice.</small>
-#{{User|Dorsal Axe}} This option makes most sense to me. The game treats these characters as a mini-boss (with the event battle theme), so are distinct from other Glitz Pit opponents. More importantly, outside of battle these characters are never referred to as Iron Clefts. I think in this instance, we should treat them as unique boss-like/story relevant characters rather than as regular enemies. We also have something of a precedent with the Goomba Bros. Finally, I also feel like more readers will search for these characters here by their team name, rather than by "Iron Cleft".
 ===Merge The Iron Adonis Twins with Iron Cleft===
@@ Line 30: / Line 26: @@
 #{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
 #{{User|Arend}} Per all.
-#{{User|Rewind}} Per all.
-#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 51: / Line 45: @@
 {{@|DrippingYellow}} I'm not sure what you mean by comparing this to the Goomba Bros. "Red Goomba" and "Blue Goomba" aren't species. They're the characters' actual (if not very creative) names. As for the KP Koopas, that doesn't make much sense, considering only two of three members of the team are normal KP Koopas in the first place, the third being a [[KP Paratroopa]] instead. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:03, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
 :It's not that Red and Blue Goombas are species, it's that the Iron Cleft "species" consists of only two members, neither of which are treated as the exact same entity. They both have the same generic name, but so do other character pairs such as the "[[Hammer Bro#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|L33T HAMM3R BROZ.]]" We also don't, for instance, split the [[Smorg]]s that comprise the large conglomerate of the same name simply because they are referred to as a species, whereas ''the'' Smorg is a boss. The [[KP Koopa]]s are an extremely similar situation, only they don't even have unique attributes other than being part of the KP Koopas; they are explicitly referred to in-game as regular Koopas that have dyed their shell. They are even identical to Koopa Troopas stat-wise (seemingly aside from interactions with certain items). The KP Koopas and [[KP Paratroopa]] ''are'' the [[KP Koopas]]. The Iron Clefts ''are'' the Iron Adonis Twins. It doesn't get much closer to pointlessly repeating/splitting information than this. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 17:35, May 25, 2024 (EDT)
-::Highly agreed on all counts, you said it better than I could. The two Iron Adonis Twins having distinct designs from one another (recognized as separate enemies by the game), making them distinct characters in their own right, makes the distinction between species and character seem meaningless. The green Iron Cleft is even referred to as the younger brother in the Tattle Log, making it clear that the Tattle Log entries each refer to distinct characters, not a species. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:17, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
-::Also, I am generally in favor of merging KP Koopa and KP Paratroopa with KP Koopas. I think that their status as a "species" is dubious, especially since at least the [[KP Paratroopa]] is said to have dyed its shell in its Tattle Log entry, and the same is implicitly the case for the other KP Koopas. This really makes them seem like a group of characters rather than a species, regardless of how the game treats them on a technical level (their species is presumably Koopa Troopa, since they look like Koopa Troopas, have the same stats as Koopa Troopas, and so forth). I left them out of this proposal to limit the scope, and because I think the Iron Clefts have an even better argument for being merged. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:23, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
-:::I mean, I agree that all the info currently covered on [[KP Koopa]] and [[KP Paratroopa]] could easily be covered between [[KP Koopas]], [[Koopa Troopa]] and [[Koopa Paratroopa]], it's just not as straightforward as a simple merge. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:14, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
-::::How so? Not trying to sound condescending, I'm just struggling to think of any reasons given to keep them separate beyond the species/characters division that I've personally found dubious. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 20:39, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
-Honestly, I think it makes more sense if we merged [[Craw-Daddy]] and [[The Koopinator]] with [[Dark Craw]] and [[Dark Koopatrol]] respectively (or vice versa), given that they're both single-person Glitz Pit entries, represent species that aren't seen anywhere else, and have the ''exact same Japanese name each'', something not even the Iron Adonis Twins have. That's as if to say they're supposed to be specific characters like [[Rawk Hawk]], which is not the case with the multi-person teams (for example, when fighting the [[KP Koopas]], the game identifies both of the regular [[KP Koopa]]s as a "KP Koopa" instead of identifying one of them as [[King K]] like how the one Craw guy you fight is still identified as [[Gus]]). {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:51, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
-:It’s not true that Dark Koopatrol and Dark Craw don’t appear elsewhere, though—you can also fight them in the Pit of 100 Trials en masse, which makes them a significantly different case in my eyes, same Japanese name as their “team” name or no, because their Glitz Pit appearances are more like a single character representative of a species, similar to [[Yoshi]] vs. [[Yoshi (species)]] (a controversial distinction in its own right to be sure, but one that the wiki currently recognizes). {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:22, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
-:What makes The Iron Adonis Twins, as well as the [[KP Koopas]] and the [[Tiny Spinies]] to a lesser extent, distinct in my eyes is that they are a species that truly appears nowhere else in the game nor in the rest of the Mario franchise whatsoever, Pit of 100 Trials and all, which they have in common with Rawk Hawk but not the Dark Koopatrol and Dark Craw. I do think that the Dark Koopatrol and Dark Craw have a solid case to be merged as well, but it's apples and oranges, really. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:29, May 29, 2024 (EDT)
-A point I'd like to add by way of comparison with how the wiki handles a somewhat similar case in another, related game: The [[Koopa Bros.]] in ''[[Paper Mario]]''. These guys seem to be a unique kind of [[Koopa Troopa]] with unique behavior, which even has its own name, "Ninjakoopa". You could say that these guys are just Koopa Troopas, which is supported by [[Goombario]]'s [[Tattle]] dialogue regarding them, but the same could be said for the [[KP Koopas]]. Since these guys are basically just Koopas and there are no other examples of their "species" outside this particular group of characters, we don't have a separate article for Ninjakoopa and Koopa Bros. In my view, this is basically the situation that the Iron Adonis Twins and Iron Cleft articles are in right now. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 18:35, May 29, 2024 (EDT)