Editing Talk:Hyrule Circuit

==(First topic)==
Pages for Deku Baba and Rupee should be created, image help requested. [[User:Toadbrigade5|Toadbrigade5]] ([[User talk:Toadbrigade5|talk]]) 19:05, 6 November 2014 (EST)

==Create Pages for Deku Baba and Rupee==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|red|don't create 5-12}}
Okay, I know this is Zelda stuff, but it appears in a mario game, and is not a minor cameo, they are ITEMS and obstacles. Under Mariowiki guidlines the things says crossovers get full coverage. I believe the Mario Kart 8 dlc is by FAR a cross over, and therefor these pages should be created. And that they're important. But Mario Wiki guidlines first.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Toadbrigade5}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 20 2014, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Regardless of what they're based on as whether or not they're simple model swaps of other things, they are still something that appears with an individual appearance in the Mario series. By all means, they deserve articles.
#{{User|WiiURob}} It's The Legend of Zelda  >> CROSSOVER SIGN << Mario Kart 8. Crossovers need full coverage, that is that.
#{{User|Paper Jorge}} Unsure about Deku Baba article. Importance is low. But Rupees are an actual item you get from Item Boxes, they have an actual purpose; an actual use.
#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} Per proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Mario}}
##The premise of the proposal is seriously flawed, that the DLC pack for ''Mario Kart 8'' is deemed a crossover and therefore should get full coverage according to policy. The problem is, the amount of non-Mario content is comparable to the Mario content in ''[[NBA Street V3]]'' (three Mario playable characters and a Mario-themed court), which editors agreed to consider them as guest appearances rather than an actual crossover. For ''Mario Kart 8'' to be a crossover, there has to be maybe four more entire cups composed of ''only'' Link tracks and maybe 16 Link characters. It's a stretch to call this a crossover, but I'm opposing mainly because of the next two reasons.
##Rupees are most likely coin reskins; at best they're just a nice touch and detail added to a Link course and that's it. They can easily go in the track article, since otherwise, the Rupee article itself is redundant. There may be an argument for additional Rupee appearances, but those are mostly covered in [[List of references in the Mario series]], which is probably a far better place to cover Rupees and stuff there.
##Deku Babas are skinned Piranha Plant clones, and again, are included for the Link feel. Their information fits as easily within the track article, and a standalone article would be redundant.
#{{User|BabyLuigi64}} Per Mario.
#{{User|Boo4761}} Per Mario.
#{{User|3D Player 2004}} Per Mario.
#{{User|Madz the Penguin}} Mario has the best evidence by far on this one. We should mention it in an article or two, but they should not have a standalone article. That's like having a [[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team]] article on a Big Bang Theory Wiki because there's a poster seen in one episode, or a [[Toadette]] article on House M.D. Wiki because House mentioned her once. It's referenced, but it's minor, so why have an article?
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per Mario.
#{{User|Glitchy Bowser Jr.}} Per Mario.
#{{User|TNM}} Per all.
#{{User|Magikrazy}} At the risk of sounding like a broken record, "per all".
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} Per Mario.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Mario. Full pages would be overkill; better to just mention the reskins on the Coin and Piranha Plant pages (and the applicable MK8-related page(s), of course).
#{{User|Peteyking64}}- There is a reason we have pages with Smash Bros. characters non- canon to Mario, because they're major characters. Rupees and Deku Babas only appear once in a single race course. They don't need a page because there is hardly any use for a page.

===Comments===

I'm a little iffy on this. Should we really create articles on enemies that suddenly are appearing in one course? From what I've seen, Deku Babas are probably like Piranha Plants, and Rupees (definitely) work exactly like a coin. They're acting like Mario objects as they would appear in other courses. {{User:BabyLuigi64/sig}}
:Yeah, but isn't Mario wiki rules that Crossovers get full coverage? And yeah Deku Babas are Piranha Plant clones. {{unsigned|Toadbrigade5}}
::I'm quite undecised too, but I'm thinking I'll oppose. Since they work exactly like Coins and Piranha Plants, they may just be modified models. And I'm not sure potential model "hacks" get an article. We may just link to ZeldaWiki. Depends what the policy says about this. {{User:Tsunami/sig}}
:::Yes, [[MarioWiki:Coverage|it's policy that crossovers get full coverage]], but this isn't a crossover. It's guest appearances. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:32, 7 November 2014 (EST)

How about redirecting “Rupee” to “Coin”? Rupees seem to be a variant of Coins, so it could be listed in the same page as Coins. Likewise, Deku Babas may also be considered as a variant of Piranha Plants. [[User:Hippopo|Hippopo]] ([[User talk:Hippopo|talk]]) 09:11, 7 November 2014 (EST)
:I'd suggest redirecting Rupee and Deku Babas to the main track article because that's their only appearance. Meanwhile, the Coin article and the Piranha Plant article can get a mention or two about the track that contains those entities. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:32, 7 November 2014 (EST)
::Four link cups? Is Mario Sports Mix considered a cross over when it barely has any Fianl Fantasy? Should we delete [[Malboro]]? [[User:Toadbrigade5|Toadbrigade5]] ([[User talk:Toadbrigade5|talk]]) 17:07, 7 November 2014 (EST)
:::''Mario Sports Mix'' verges almost into cross-over, with the Behemoth boss and the Chocobo song as well as a few Final Fantasy playable characters. The line isn't definite sometimes, but I don't think the content in ''Mario Hoops 3-on-3'' and ''Mario Sports Mix'' is quite enough to make it a crossover. The title of the game is still ''Mario Sports Mix'', and ''Mario'' still takes up the vast majority of the game. Finally, I'd argue for a merge of [[Malboro]] and [[Malboro Garden]] in the similar way the [http://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:King_Bulblin_and_Lord_Bullbo King Bulbin and Lord Bullbo pages] were unanimously agreed to be merged in to their stage article. Actually, that proposal is probably my cited precedent for this proposal, and I'm staying consistent with that precedent. {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:31, 7 November 2014 (EST)
::::Regardless of what you'd argue, it is seperate and that way it stays, so this should be seperate too. {{unsigned|Toadbrigade5}}
:::::So... you're just dismissing my argument? Okay... well... {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:49, 7 November 2014 (EST)
::::::Just to let you know, just because those articles are separate doesn't make it a case that these article should be created. The wiki is always under construction. There may be some pages avoiding our radar that need to be addressed via talk page comments and maybe talk page proposal. {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:29, 8 November 2014 (EST)

Okay, I reread the coverage. 1, wiki only doesn't cover if mario guest appears in a different game. If a guest appears in a Mario game, that is to be covered. Therefor, I believe this is no longer necessary, and I can just go ahead right? [[User:Toadbrigade5|Toadbrigade5]] ([[User talk:Toadbrigade5|talk]]) 18:33, 7 November 2014 (EST)
:#Mario guest appears in ''[[SSX on Tour]]'', ''[[NBA Street V3]]'', and a [[Birdo]] appears in ''[[Captain Rainbow]]'', which has "forgotten" characters from various Nintendo games). Those games are covered as far as I know.
:#If a guest appears in a Mario game, that guest should get an article regarding solely to that game. Major entities such as guest-related items and tracks also get pages. Stage hazards, however, should not get pages, especially if they appear only in the guest-related track.
:I don't know what you mean by "going ahead with it". But my arguments either way.<br>{{User:Mario/sig}} 18:49, 7 November 2014 (EST)
::Okay you proved my point, the rupee is an item. And stage hazards aren't minor, we have red-bulborb, malboro, and many others. {{unsigned|Toadbrigade5}}
:::No, I didn't. The [[Red Bulborb]] article wasn't created as a standalone article until it happened to be a Smash Run enemy from ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS''; the article began as a [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Red_Bulborb&diff=1754395&oldid=311323 simple redirect] to [[Distant Planet]] and remained like that until somewhat after the release of ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS''. The information as a stage hazard in its article is just an afterthought. {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:24, 8 November 2014 (EST)

@Madz the penguin, that makes no sense. A) Those were referenced and B) these aren't minor. Stage hazards and items are a huge part of dlc, I say nothing on the bat enemy and hylian gaurd cuz those are cameos.[[User:Toadbrigade5|Toadbrigade5]] ([[User talk:Toadbrigade5|talk]]) 22:58, 7 November 2014 (EST)

Okay, so maybe I mentioned Toadette being mentioned in House because I wanted to make a House reference. However, people say that these are just reskins. We could mention them in articles, but making articles about them is just going to waste space and time. It's DLC, not a Mario and Link: Mario Kart version. [[User:Madz the Penguin|Madz the Penguin]] ([[User talk:Madz the Penguin|talk]]) 01:07, 8 November 2014 (EST)
:But what you're mentioning are a hazard and item that are replacing another Mario series one function wise, and on one course too. That doesn't really sound huge. {{User:BabyLuigi64/sig}}
::Yeah, Baby Luigi has a good point there. We could replace rupees with other things and it wouldn't change the gameplay a bit. We could also replace them with coins, stars, ocarinas, etc. and it wouldn't change the gameplay. It's not like switching [[Dr. Toadley]] with [[Dr. Mario]]. This is very minor, it appears on one course, and we shouldn't make an article on it. [[User:Madz the Penguin|Madz the Penguin]] ([[User talk:Madz the Penguin|talk]]) 11:13, 8 November 2014 (EST)

@Madz the Penguin: Actually, those are even more minor cameos, so I don't think your analogy is the best. Instead, refer to my argument about what happened to King Bulbin and Lord Bullbo, minor Link stage hazards from the Bridge of Eldin that were merged to the Bridge of Eldin unanimously. Yeah, I guess stuff like [[F-Zero Racer]] and [[Malboro]] exist, but I don't consider them strong points against my argument. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:10, 8 November 2014 (EST)

@Mario Ignore the Big Bang Theory and House analogy. I think I just did that because I love the Mario and Luigi series and House (I haven't seen House before, but I can compare it to the Mario and Luigi series very well. Toadley M.D, anyone?). However, I still agree with you, and I think Rubees...I mean Rupees (unless it's Zelda CD-i or [[Super Paper Mario]], then it's Rubees) have the exact same function as a regular coin. Having two more useless stubs isn't going to make Mario Wiki look good. [[User:Madz the Penguin|Madz the Penguin]] ([[User talk:Madz the Penguin|talk]]) 16:29, 8 November 2014 (EST)
:They won't necessarily be stubs (stubs are short articles WITH insufficient information), but they'll be redundant, and that's my main point. {{User:Mario/sig}} 16:40, 8 November 2014 (EST)

::But they ''are'' more than just coin reskins. They activate a shortcut in the course, and you get them from Item Boxes. {{User:Paper Jorge/sig}}
:::Judging by gameplay footage, the things that activate the shortcut are just normal gems, and you can get Coins from items boxes, and the Rupees perform the function as the Coin does when it is received. {{User|Yoshi876}}
::::Played the game, can confirm that Deku Babas and Rupees have the same function. Also, this proposal misses out on one more clone: Keese, which act like Swoopers. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:14, 15 November 2014 (EST)
:::::I Thought Keese was too minor. It doesn't effect gameplay. Also Hylian Gaurd, which acts like Toads, where left out for same reason.[[User:Toadbrigade5|Toadbrigade5]] ([[User talk:Toadbrigade5|talk]]) 19:43, 15 November 2014 (EST)
::::::I can confirm by playing both Wario's Gold Mine and Hyrule Circuit that despite getting in your way in Wii, they couldn't even touch you because they fly too high; the same would go for the Keese as well. So they are reskins but that anyways do nothing to affect the racers. {{User:BabyLuigi64/sig}}
:::::::Actually, both on Wario's Gold Mine and Hyrule Circuit can you run into them.--[[User:Weebbby|Weebbby]] ([[User talk:Weebbby|talk]]) 17:14, 11 April 2015 (EDT)

== Create pages for the Zelda elements, take II ==

{{TPP}}
Most ''Legend of Zelda''-specific elements appearing on this course fall in the same register as [[Link]] and other non-''Mario'' subjects we have pages for: they appear in a ''Mario'' game and serve a clear-cut gameplay function. Them being virtually identical gameplay-wise to other concepts from the same title, like Piranha Plants, Swoops, and Coins, doesn't pose as a setback; a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Merge Game Boy Donkey Kong enemy variations / Split Wario World enemy variations|passed proposal]] already endorses their separation on the basis of distinct appearances and names. Need I also remind of [[Raving Piranha Plant]]s?

To address a prominent counterpoint brought about in the previous discussion, I don't think these elements are comparable to what the wiki outlines as guest appearances. ''[[NBA Street V3]]'', ''[[SSX on Tour]]'' and ''[[Punch Out!!]]'' are non-''Mario'' games featuring ''Mario'' characters, and we only cover these games to the extent of said ''Mario'' content; the Hyrule Circuit situation is a complete turnaround of that, where a full-on ''Mario'' game features non-''Mario'' concepts. The argument that the game needs to have at least "4 more exclusively Link cups" to be considered a crossover and make its Zelda concepts worth covering is arbitrary and irrelevant: Hyrule Circuit being covered here already pushes back on that notion.

With all of the above said, the proposal's primary aim is to allow creation of articles for [[Deku Baba]], [[Keese]], and [[Rupee]]. The proposal was set up here to directly reappraise the points in the above discussion, but if it passes, similar subjects from the [[Animal Crossing]] course such as [[Snowboy]] and Bell will also be affected by it.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 5, 2021, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Appears in a Mario game, has a unique appearance and a unique name. Yeah they behave identically to things in the base game but it wouldn't be the first time we had separate articles for subjects that behaved the same but were clearly different.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Rupees, Keese, and Deku Babas are all named interactive elements in a ''Mario''-labeled and -centric game. What more could we ask for? This has always bothered me.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. This is inconsistent with our other crossover coverage and why it wasn't already this way is confusing to me.
#{{User|Tails777}} I agree with this completely. Per proposal!
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all. I say enemies that appear in Mario titles are more relevant to Mario than Smash characters and items generally are, so they do deserve a page. We also have an article on [[Malboro]] from Mario Hoops and [[Behemoth]] from Mario Sports Mix anyway.

====Oppose====

====Comments====
@@ Line 3: / Line 3: @@
 ==Create Pages for Deku Baba and Rupee==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|red|don't create 5-12}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|red|don't create 5-12}}
 Okay, I know this is Zelda stuff, but it appears in a mario game, and is not a minor cameo, they are ITEMS and obstacles. Under Mariowiki guidlines the things says crossovers get full coverage. I believe the Mario Kart 8 dlc is by FAR a cross over, and therefor these pages should be created. And that they're important. But Mario Wiki guidlines first.
@@ Line 75: / Line 75: @@
 == Create pages for the Zelda elements, take II ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|9-2|create articles}}
+{{TPP}}
-Most ''Legend of Zelda''-specific elements appearing on this course fall in the same register as [[Link]] and other non-''Mario'' subjects we have pages for: they appear in a ''Mario'' game and serve a clear-cut gameplay function. Them being virtually identical gameplay-wise to other concepts from the same title, like Piranha Plants, Swoops, and Coins, doesn't pose as a setback; a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Merge Game Boy Donkey Kong enemy variations / Split Wario World enemy variations|passed proposal]] already endorses their separation on the basis of distinct appearances and names. Need I also remind of [[Raving Piranha Plant]]s?
+Most ''Legend of Zelda''-specific elements appearing on this course fall in the same register as [[Link]] and other non-''Mario'' subjects we have pages for: they appear in a ''Mario'' game and serve a clear-cut gameplay function. Them being virtually identical gameplay-wise to other concepts from the same title, like Piranha Plants, Swoops, and Coins, doesn't pose as a setback; a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Merge Game Boy Donkey Kong enemy variations / Split Wario World enemy variations|passed proposal]] already endorses their separation on the basis of distinct appearances and names. Need I also remind of [[Raving Piranha Plant]]s?
 To address a prominent counterpoint brought about in the previous discussion, I don't think these elements are comparable to what the wiki outlines as guest appearances. ''[[NBA Street V3]]'', ''[[SSX on Tour]]'' and ''[[Punch Out!!]]'' are non-''Mario'' games featuring ''Mario'' characters, and we only cover these games to the extent of said ''Mario'' content; the Hyrule Circuit situation is a complete turnaround of that, where a full-on ''Mario'' game features non-''Mario'' concepts. The argument that the game needs to have at least "4 more exclusively Link cups" to be considered a crossover and make its Zelda concepts worth covering is arbitrary and irrelevant: Hyrule Circuit being covered here already pushes back on that notion.
@@ Line 93: / Line 93: @@
 #{{User|Tails777}} I agree with this completely. Per proposal!
 #{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all. I say enemies that appear in Mario titles are more relevant to Mario than Smash characters and items generally are, so they do deserve a page. We also have an article on [[Malboro]] from Mario Hoops and [[Behemoth]] from Mario Sports Mix anyway.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Even if they are reskins, they still make an appearance in a Mario crossover and therefore warrant articles of their own. Per all.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
 ====Oppose====
-#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I still stand by my oppose years ago. Due to their relationship being wholly dependent on the courses they're on as well as being glorified reskins that don't offer differences from their source assets, I see little utility in splitting articles that'll result in duplicate content, redundant with at least two pages (e.g. Deku Baba, on top of not even being a Mario character, won't have anything more than duplicate content from Piranha Plant and Hyrule Circuit). I also don't support a separate article for the likes of Raving Piranha Plant and Bouncing Note (as well as examples that Ray Trace provided) for similar reasons. If these assets do appear in later Mario games (and not ''Smash Bros.'' but I mean ''Mario'' games as discussions revolving Smash Bros. coverage is recently quite contentious here), then an article should be made. If this proposal passes, we'll get a lot of useless tiny articles like Bell (I mean a short statement: "Coins are replaced by Bells." is completely fine, why make an article on Bells that just reiterates that), Fruit, Snowboy, and so on, which have zero relevance to the Mario games. I don't think we're required to cover every single interactable in a guest series course just by being distinct.
-#{{User|Keyblade Master}} I'm not sure if there is any other Mario-related media these things appear in, but in this case they are basically just reskins to adapt to this course being based off Zelda.
 ====Comments====
-@Bazooka Mario: The problem with that is we do already give individual course obstacles their own pages, so opposing more on the basis of "I don't want these specifically" is inconsistent and doesn't really hold up unless you plan on creating a proposal to get rid of all of them later. Also, why should a subject have to appear in multiple games before getting an article? And saying that they have "zero relevance to the Mario games" is completely false when the only reason we're considering making these articles is because they ''do'' appear in a Mario game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:23, July 23, 2021 (EDT)
-:Hence I noted in my oppose, I don't support Bouncing Note or Raving Piranha Plants having their own pages, and have opposed them years ago. And if they do appear in multiple games, then that means you can actually have an article that notes more appearances, so the content wouldn't be entirely redundant. "Bell appears in Mario Kart 8 as a coin item, subsequently appears in a follow-up Animal Crossing course also as a coin item." It's only barely justifiable but still is useful to encompass several appearances like that. But self-contained in exactly one course where one line of text "this replaces coins" suffices? Not really. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:44, July 23, 2021 (EDT)
-I'm torn on this one. While splitting these things based on the fact that they are interactive items and species in a legit ''Mario'' game (as opposed to ''Smash'' or something) is sound logic, the fact that they are reskins of regular ''Mario'' elements that appear in the game exclusive to a crossover stage makes me a bit reluctant to throw my hat in the ring. For the record, merging reskins even outside of crossovers isn't unprecedented. See, for instance, the post-[[Special Zone]] enemy reskins in ''SMW'' such as Mask Koopas and Pidgit Bills. Should we split those too? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:35, July 23, 2021 (EDT)
-:Pidgit Bills make a cameo in Super Princess Peach's endings, I think they at least ought to. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:50, July 24, 2021 (EDT)