Editing Talk:Hurricane (move)

does this give star points if enemies are defeated by it?
{{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:Only defeating enemies yields Star Points, not removing them. {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}}

If you use [[Gale Force]] on TTYD,you get star points.
{{unsigned|Yoshiyoshiyoshi}}

== Merge to Gale Force? ==
This should probably be merged to Gale Force, shouldn't it? Not only do they have the same name in Japanese, French and German, but also the concept is the same of the cloud-themed partner with strong winds blowing away the enemies. The likely reason this wasn't caught in translation like the other returning partner moves is that, while Goombella is a Goomba like Goombario, same with Kooper and Koops, and Bombette and Bobbery, Flurrie isn't a Lakitu like Lakilester. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:43, June 30, 2024 (EDT)
: Nope. They have completely different button commands, Gale Force allows you to get Star Points while Hurricane doesn't. There's also the fact that the English remake still calls Gale Force by its name instead of Hurricane. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:52, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
:: Tons of moves have different action commands between the two games, the differences between these two aren't more than the differences between the two iterations of Bomb (went from requiring 3 FP to requiring none, got a completely different action command, deals one less point of damage, and is used by a much more late-game partner), and... yes, the remake didn't change the name for this move. Why would it, though? It's not like the name's wrong, and it's one of this game's partners' signature abilities, so it makes a lot of sense to keep the name. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:34, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

==Merge with Gale Force==
{{TPP}}
Let's sort the above dilemma out, to clear out unresolved discussions. '''Are Gale Force and Hurricane the same move?''' Let's run the facts down, for easier reading:

*Both moves share a name in Japanese (important), French and German (less important, but still worth considering).
**...but the remake didn't rename Gale Force to Hurricane in English.
*Both are used by a cloud-themed partner (Lakilester and Flurrie).
**...but they're way different from eachother, unlike [[Goombario]] and [[Goombella]], [[Bombette]] and [[Bobbery]], and the rest.
*Both consist of blowing a gust of wind to instantly defeat enemies, with different enemies having different vulnerabilities.
**...but Gale Force gives Star Points, while Hurricane doesn't. They also have different Action Commands, and Gale Force can also be used as a field move.
***...but Bombette and Bobbery's respective [[Bomb (Paper Mario series)|Bomb]]s also have different Action Commands, and they are way more different from eachother than Gale Force and Hurricane while still being considered the same move.
***Additionally, ''TTYD'' rebalances Star Points in several ways, including all battles always giving at least one. Gale Force's change might have  more to do with that than anything intristic to the move itself.

'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 30, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Support: Merge Hurricane into Gale Force===
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} personally i'm pretty convinced, they definitely FEEL like the same move. ELABORATION EDIT: specifically, Gale Force feels like an attempt at rebalancing how Hurricane worked, since it's a bit of a paltry move in the original. all of its changes are less to do with the essence of the move, and more with the specific minutia. i can easily see a world where Hurricane functions like Gale Force.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Given the fact we merge Bobbery's and Bombette's Bomb attacks, this seems only fair.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal and the above discussion.

===Oppose: Do not merge===
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} No.
#{{User|Mario}} The anticipated rebuttals actually do make a stronger case for leaving split. These are considered two different moves in the English version, further reinforced by the remake leaving it as a separate name. This is the sort of case where I'm like "when in doubt, leave split". The Bombs were merged for sharing a name, though if consistency is very important, I rather these were split than merged.

===Hurricomments===
I'm gonna have to oppose on the grounds that all the reasons were given were how the moves are different. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:09, January 17, 2025 (EST)
:i've noticed you doing this several times, and i want to ask: wouldn't it be easier to put your argument for why you're not voting on the vote itself, instead of just having a flat "no" and having to comment under to explain it? {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 10:36, January 17, 2025 (EST)
::I'm going to agree with Evie on this one, it's very discourteous to split your justifications out like this. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:42, January 17, 2025 (EST)
:::Because if I just said No, then someone would have asked why I was opposing. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:38, January 18, 2025 (EST)
::::You see how people write their arguments as part of their votes? Maybe do that instead of just a blunt (and redundant) "No". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:33, January 18, 2025 (EST)
{{@|Mario}} Is there "doubt", though? I mean, they have the same name, pretty much the same role, the same animation. That's the kind of thing is a move's identity, not the specifics of how exactly it does the thing it does. And the point about the remake keeping the original name is a little odd because this isn't the only move that happened with. Spin Smash from the original Paper Mario returned in TTYD, with a (kinda inexplicable) different English name, a different method of unlocking and a field equivalent, and that one got merged some time ago. See [[Talk:Spin Smash]]. The point being, the remake didn't change names of moves for consistency with the original Paper Mario, so why would we expect it to here? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:39, January 22, 2025 (EST)

I really don't understand how the remake not changing the name means anything. If TTYD changed the English name of the move, why would they feel the need to unnecessarily change it back in the remake? The name could've just changed between games. The idea that the remake kept the name "Gale Force" specifically to differentiate it from "Hurricane" is baseless speculation because there's been no new appearances of "Hurricane" for us to compare the name to. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:43, January 22, 2025 (EST)
:I have doubts due to the differences between the moves. Why was it differently named in the first place? These two moves function quite differently, with different QTEs and different effects and performed by two different species. If the name was a localization quirk, why didn't the remake rectify it? They made several changes to localization, why leave this one? I don't even agree with the merge with the hammer moves; it creates this page with two awkward infobox templates, a conglomeration in the "names in other languages section", and then there's information on how the moves have different unlock requirements and uses (one is a badge, the other is more akin to a field move like Mario's ground pound but for his hammer). I'd rather these moves were split, and Bomb were split. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:25, January 22, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 ==Merge with Gale Force==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|6-4|Merge}}
 Let's sort the above dilemma out, to clear out unresolved discussions. '''Are Gale Force and Hurricane the same move?''' Let's run the facts down, for easier reading:
@@ Line 33: / Line 32: @@
 #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
 #{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal and the above discussion.
-#{{User|Pseudo}} This seems fairly clear cut to me. Per proposal.
-#{{User|Qyzxf}} Per above
 ===Oppose: Do not merge===
 #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} No.
 #{{User|Mario}} The anticipated rebuttals actually do make a stronger case for leaving split. These are considered two different moves in the English version, further reinforced by the remake leaving it as a separate name. This is the sort of case where I'm like "when in doubt, leave split". The Bombs were merged for sharing a name, though if consistency is very important, I rather these were split than merged.
-#{{User|SComic}} Per Mario. I also think that moves with different stats and different names should stay split. The bomb moves that Bombette and Bobbery share the same name and in that case, have a lot more similarities and perks to being merged. I say keep them separate, it would end up causing more confusion I believe.
-#{{User|Tails777}} Per all
 ===Hurricomments===
@@ Line 52: / Line 47: @@
 I really don't understand how the remake not changing the name means anything. If TTYD changed the English name of the move, why would they feel the need to unnecessarily change it back in the remake? The name could've just changed between games. The idea that the remake kept the name "Gale Force" specifically to differentiate it from "Hurricane" is baseless speculation because there's been no new appearances of "Hurricane" for us to compare the name to. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:43, January 22, 2025 (EST)
 :I have doubts due to the differences between the moves. Why was it differently named in the first place? These two moves function quite differently, with different QTEs and different effects and performed by two different species. If the name was a localization quirk, why didn't the remake rectify it? They made several changes to localization, why leave this one? I don't even agree with the merge with the hammer moves; it creates this page with two awkward infobox templates, a conglomeration in the "names in other languages section", and then there's information on how the moves have different unlock requirements and uses (one is a badge, the other is more akin to a field move like Mario's ground pound but for his hammer). I'd rather these moves were split, and Bomb were split. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:25, January 22, 2025 (EST)
-::my guess is that they got different names because the translators didn't pick up on the moves sharing a name (as they did with [[Li'l_Oink#Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door|Bubu]], [[Crystal Palace|Goomstar Temple]], [[Toad_Town#Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door|Mushville and Mushroom Town]]). when the (notably very faithful) remake came by, it wasn't deemed a change necessary (and without the context, it'd be pretty weird to have just ONE move from ONE partner randomly have a different name for reasons unexplainable unless you played PM64). not every localization quirk is a mistake to be fixed, sometimes this stuff just happens. as for the different action commands and functionality quirks, those feel more like balance changes. [[Shell Toss]] got a different action command too, and we're not splitting it on that alone. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 22:40, January 22, 2025 (EST)
-::The translators could've just preferred the name "Gale Force" over "Hurricane". For all we know, if we had gotten a PM64 remake, they could've changed the name of "Hurricane" to "Gale Force". The first translation for something doesn't always have to be the only correct one, name changes happen sometimes. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:40, January 24, 2025 (EST)
-{{@|SComic}} Hurricane and Gale Force share the same name too! ...in japanese, at least. Bomb (Bombette) and Bomb (Bobbery) also have different stats as well {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 19:28, January 26, 2025 (EST)
-:Fair enough. I figured that the bomb move made sense since it has the same name in English, and well, "English always comes first". It at least made sense. Honestly, I wouldn't be mad if we re-split the bomb moves.--{{User:SComic/sig}} 09:15, February 2, 2025 (EST)