Editing Talk:Homing Chomp

==Silver/Homing==
Before we decide to move this to Homing Chomp, I do want to point out that (capitalized) Silver Chomp is used consistently throughout the original Prima guide, and it also pairs better with the ''Galaxy'' games' other recolor variant, Gold Chomp. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:20, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
:Prima also has a habit of taking title capitalizations at face value <small>coughFieryDinoPiranhacough</small> without so much as a cursory glance at the Lang-of-Origin name. In the stage title, "Silver Chomp" matches "Silver WanWan" as a generic descriptor. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:54, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
::I suppose (though Prima is not [[Dorrie|the]] [[Klepto|only]] [[Big Fire Piranha|one]] to have done that). In that case, should we nix "Pink Boo" in favor of "Block Boo" in ''Super Mario Sunshine''? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:59, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
:::That wasn't in-game for Sunshine, so unless it's lowercase in the guide, seems a bit apples-to-oranges. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:20, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
::::I mean, it's lowercase "pink Boo" in the three other guides, so just like Silver Chomp, it's literally only Prima using "Pink Boo" as a name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:48, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
:::::Seems sound to me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:08, August 21, 2022 (EDT)
Look at the name of the mission "[[Silver Chomp Grudge Match]]". Seems that it is "Silver Chomp" as there's no more official source than in-game. [[Special:Contributions/106.69.169.213|106.69.169.213]] 08:07, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

== Move back to Silver Chomp ==

{{TPP}}
The current name of this article comes solely from Mario Portal, which was from about a year ago, whereas the name "Silver Chomp" was used in-game (albeit for a mission title) which is even its onky appearance. I want to point out that a recent proposal to move Pianta Thrower back to [[Chuckster]] passed with overwhelming support for a similar reason to this one, a name that has been used in a game still taking priority over a newer name that hasn't.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Swallow}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 21, 2023, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal zura
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per proposal.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} This is more clear-cut than Stompin' Chomp to me since there are other types of Chomp in that level as well that the title could easily refer to and that title leaves out the "rompin'" element. On top of that, I don't think there is strong reason to believe that Silver Chomp is meant to be a generic descriptor as Doc von Schmeltwick describes — it is a very direct descriptor compared to something like Stompin' Chomp that seems more colloquial I guess.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I'd say this is more comparable to [[Giant Wiggler]]. Per proposal, and all.

===Oppose===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per the original <s>proposal</s> discussion, "silver Chomp" may be in-game, but it's not treating it as an actual name, just a description (ie, a Chomp that is silver). Like how we no longer claim "stompin' Chomp" is a name when it was clumsily pulled from a stage title.
#{{user|Blinker}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick. Also, other languages add some context here. First and foremost, the enemy is also referred by two names in Japanese. The name "Silver Wanwan" is used in the mission name, while "Search Wanwan" is used in the official guide, which makes the former seem, as mentioned, like just a description, as with Klepto's "Big Bird" name. So it may make sense to look at the English "Silver Chomp" and "Homing Chomp" names similarly. Secondly, there's the German name for the "Silver Chomp Grudge Match" mission, "Ramm den silbernen Kettenhund", which is not in title case, and as such the word for silver is lowercase. This shows the German translators also interpreted the word "silver" as a simple descriptor.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} The [[Chuckster]] proposal was mentioned, so we'd like to bring something up in specific with that example that isn't the case here--without a [=3DAS=] to set the record straight that Nintendo still calls them Silver Chomp instead of their later name, this is a ''lot'' less clear-cut than the Chucksters. The combination of the vague syntax of the original name (the capitalization leaves it unclear if it's the name or just an adjective for "Chomp") leaves us with a very, very strange edge case for Silver Chomp literally only ''possibly'' being the "official" name because of grammar, and unless more concretely spelled-out information comes out, we might as well defer to the lower-priority but way more concretely stated name in the meantime. THAT BEING SAID: if someone were to pull a hail-mary, email Nintendo, asked "Is it Silver Chomp?", and if Nintendo said "Yes, it is, we just capitalized that wrong.", we'd be inclined to support this whole-heartedly; the main hurdle here, after all, is the ambiguity, and that'd clear it up.

===Comments===
Maybe this could be treated similarly to [[Plurp]] / Plirp / Coo Coo, as in the title remains "Homing Chomp", the first sentence says "originally known as Silver Chomp", and then most of the rest of the article, being in the context of Galaxy 2, calls it a Silver Chomp as well? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:36, October 7, 2023 (EDT)
:I'm afraid I'd still rather do what the proposal intends. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:39, October 7, 2023 (EDT)
::Fair enough, I guess they're not quite the same kind of situation, with the "Plurp" name having been around since more or less the game's release. In that case, if the rename happens, the Japanese "Silver Wanwan" name should return to the NIOL section, for consistency. It was apparently removed "because it's been concluded that it was meant to be generic descriptor" (probably the game's official guide using a name more similar to the "Homing Chomp" name). [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:48, October 7, 2023 (EDT)

@Doc What original proposal? {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:57, October 7, 2023 (EDT)
:I misremembered, I could have sworn there was one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:18, October 7, 2023 (EDT)


Question: How much weight does the Prima Guide hold here? {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:That question does not have a definitive answer. Prima did clearly take "Silver Chomp" straight from the mission title, but as LTL mentioned, they're not the only ones guilty of doing that. The usage of "Silver Chomp" in the mission title does not clearly evoke "generic descriptor" the way "Big Bird" or "Swimming Beast" obviously do, especially since the Japanese mission name largely gives off the same impression. It's only because of the Japanese guide and internal name that the "generic descriptor" argument is plausible at all. It's worth noting that the similar name "[[Gold Chomp]]" is derived from the same guide, with us previously using "Golden Chomp" from another [[The Golden Chomp|mission title]]. (Unlike "Silver Chomp", Mario Portal actually backs "Gold Chomp" up.) {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 01:22, October 11, 2023 (EDT)
::Like I said in my vote, there's also the mission's German title. It's the only language where the title both mentions the enemy and isn't in title case, and the word for "silver" happens to be in lowercase, which doesn't happen, for instance, with purple coins. This means at least the German translators interpreted it as "a Chomp that is silver" rather than "the enemy called Silver Chomp". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:45, October 11, 2023 (EDT)
@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 == Move back to Silver Chomp ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|4-8|do not move back}}
+{{TPP}}
 The current name of this article comes solely from Mario Portal, which was from about a year ago, whereas the name "Silver Chomp" was used in-game (albeit for a mission title) which is even its onky appearance. I want to point out that a recent proposal to move Pianta Thrower back to [[Chuckster]] passed with overwhelming support for a similar reason to this one, a name that has been used in a game still taking priority over a newer name that hasn't.
@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per proposal.
 #{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per proposal.
+#{{User|Pseudo}} This is more clear-cut than Stompin' Chomp to me since there are other types of Chomp in that level as well that the title could easily refer to and that title leaves out the "rompin'" element. On top of that, I don't think there is strong reason to believe that Silver Chomp is meant to be a generic descriptor as Doc von Schmeltwick describes — it is a very direct descriptor compared to something like Stompin' Chomp that seems more colloquial I guess.
 #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I'd say this is more comparable to [[Giant Wiggler]]. Per proposal, and all.
-<s>{{User|Pseudo}} This is more clear-cut than Stompin' Chomp to me since there are other types of Chomp in that level as well that the title could easily refer to and that title leaves out the "rompin'" element. On top of that, I don't think there is strong reason to believe that Silver Chomp is meant to be a generic descriptor as Doc von Schmeltwick describes — it is a very direct descriptor compared to something like Stompin' Chomp that seems more colloquial I guess.</s><br>
-<s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} Games over whatever mario portal is. Per all.</s>
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 29: / Line 28: @@
 #{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
 #{{User|Camwoodstock}} The [[Chuckster]] proposal was mentioned, so we'd like to bring something up in specific with that example that isn't the case here--without a [=3DAS=] to set the record straight that Nintendo still calls them Silver Chomp instead of their later name, this is a ''lot'' less clear-cut than the Chucksters. The combination of the vague syntax of the original name (the capitalization leaves it unclear if it's the name or just an adjective for "Chomp") leaves us with a very, very strange edge case for Silver Chomp literally only ''possibly'' being the "official" name because of grammar, and unless more concretely spelled-out information comes out, we might as well defer to the lower-priority but way more concretely stated name in the meantime. THAT BEING SAID: if someone were to pull a hail-mary, email Nintendo, asked "Is it Silver Chomp?", and if Nintendo said "Yes, it is, we just capitalized that wrong.", we'd be inclined to support this whole-heartedly; the main hurdle here, after all, is the ambiguity, and that'd clear it up.
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Everyone's touched on most talking points by now, but to me, this proposal comes down to "the name from the time" and "the name that was intended". I know that we generally go with the former, but there's reasons to suspect that the name at the time was not the name that was intended, which puts this in a very peculiar spot. Among those reasons, there's also [[Homing Chomp#Internal names|internal]] [[Gold Chomp#Internal names|names]]. If it matched Gold Chomp's in its mention of color, I'd say that Silver Chomp was intended. Instead, it aligns with the Search/Homing name, treating the color as incidental. So, I conclude that this is a misrepresentation.
-#{{User|Pseudo}} After reading LinkTheLefty's argument and re-reading Camwoodstock's argument, I'm inclined to think that this was a misrepresentation, despite all appearances.
-#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Never mind, Homing Chomp is more descriptive anyways. Per all.
-#{{User|SmokedChili}} In this case, the in-game name is ignored in favor of the supplemental material name, which I'm pretty sure was originally the Shogakukan guide since ESMB is as far I've gotten to check, and the English Portal name was based on that.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 46: / Line 41: @@
 :That question does not have a definitive answer. Prima did clearly take "Silver Chomp" straight from the mission title, but as LTL mentioned, they're not the only ones guilty of doing that. The usage of "Silver Chomp" in the mission title does not clearly evoke "generic descriptor" the way "Big Bird" or "Swimming Beast" obviously do, especially since the Japanese mission name largely gives off the same impression. It's only because of the Japanese guide and internal name that the "generic descriptor" argument is plausible at all. It's worth noting that the similar name "[[Gold Chomp]]" is derived from the same guide, with us previously using "Golden Chomp" from another [[The Golden Chomp|mission title]]. (Unlike "Silver Chomp", Mario Portal actually backs "Gold Chomp" up.) {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 01:22, October 11, 2023 (EDT)
 ::Like I said in my vote, there's also the mission's German title. It's the only language where the title both mentions the enemy and isn't in title case, and the word for "silver" happens to be in lowercase, which doesn't happen, for instance, with purple coins. This means at least the German translators interpreted it as "a Chomp that is silver" rather than "the enemy called Silver Chomp". [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:45, October 11, 2023 (EDT)
-:::@7feetunder: I ask mostly cause the Prima guide is consistent with capitalizing the S in Silver; at every point Silver Chomps are mentioned, the capitalizing is consistent. I know this could already be known information, but I was hoping I could just provide any further info that could be helpful. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
-::::Additionally, Mario Portal was written by Nintendo of America themselves, while PRIMA stayed third-party. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:05, October 12, 2023 (EDT)
-:::::Even NoA doesn't always get their facts right, and it seems like with this specific instance the name Silver Chomp was actually intended as a name. Disregarding precedent, there is no reason to believe that Silver Chomp was meant as a descriptor. --[[User:MegaBowser64|BOWSER...]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) 20:46, October 13, 2023 (EDT)
-::::::Except NoJ's inconsistent referencing to it (where indeed, "silver" is a generic description for the mission title and "homing" is the proper name, like what NoA was trying to properly reflect on Mario Portal), and the German translation's mission title using "silver" as a non-proper adjective (when in German ALL nouns are capitalized by default). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:25, October 14, 2023 (EDT)