Editing Talk:Hefty Goombrat

==Rename to Big Goombrat==

I thought Policy allows for this name now, how come it was changed back? --[[User:Sgt. Sarge|Sgt. Sarge]] ([[User talk:Sgt. Sarge|talk]]) 22:17, February 9, 2024 (EST)
:Consider: Kodeka Kuribo isn't Big Goomba, it is ''Hefty'' Goomba. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:12, February 9, 2024 (EST)
::"BigKakibo" is the internal name for it in Mario Wonder, but if that is the same conventions used for "Hefty Goombas" internal name then lets call it "Hefty Goombrat"--[[User:Sgt. Sarge|Sgt. Sarge]] ([[User talk:Sgt. Sarge|talk]]) 09:34, February 10, 2024 (EST)
:::There has been some confusion in the page's move history on where to move it to. For the time being and per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Derived_names]] (where we know the source enemy's English name, Hefty Goomba, we know this enemy's Japanese name, and the qualities of this enemy are similar to Hefty Goomba's qualities), I've moved it to Hefty Goombrat. This edit in MarioWiki:Naming[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Naming&diff=4066252&oldid=4036865], I believe, is the change in policy RHG cited[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Hefty_Goombrat&diff=4113168&oldid=4113083] when moving the page. {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:11, February 10, 2024 (EST)
::::That section is non-sense and seems to have been stealth-edited into the policy. Why use a fanmade name when there's an official name for this thing?! {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:24, February 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::I don't believe it's a "fan-made name", we're piecing it from official sources and relying on relatively predictable name. Note our policy also says that English names take precedence over the Japanese ones. We decided to change the policy over issues naming the Wonder-variants of the enemies: it's all over the place with English and Japanese names despite a very predictable naming scheme. I don't see how it's beneficial to be overly cautious and rely on using "Deka Hoppin" or "Wonder Hoppin" rather than "Big Hoppycat" or "Wonder Hoppycat". {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:41, February 10, 2024 (EST)
::::::"Piecing [names] from official sources and relying on relatively predictable name" is make-believe game localizer stuff and the very definition of fan-made. The policy even straight up dictates using the "conjecture" template in such cases. Never mind that I'm already iffy on the policy especially since it was apparently only discussed among sysops (a red flag from me there, this stuff should be collaborative), but what makes this case even more disagreeable is that instead of resorting to a plain, "relatively predictable" descriptor to refer to a big variation of an enemy, the wiki uses "hefty", which is flowery and goes against the conjectural naming policy. Using it isn't fine just because it's derived from the Japanese name and reflects [[Hefty Goomba]]'s name--at the end of the day, you're prioritizing a conjectural name over something official and that is not even remotely what this site is about. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:50, February 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::::In general, I agree with the policy change, but I think going with Hefty (which requires jumping through a few hoops) over Big (which was actually used by Nintendo in internal data) may have been a step too far here. Changing Kakibo to Goombrat is reasonable since it's just that subject's name, but I'm cautious about going much further than that. With our current information, Big Goombrat is the ideal name for this, in my opinion (I'm still not sure why it was moved away multiple times). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:58, February 10, 2024 (EST)
::::::::It was moved because "Kodeka Kakibō" is official while "Big Goombrat" is not, and I wasn't aware of that policy when I performed the move. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:02, February 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Waluigi Time: Hefty Goomba's internal name is also "Big Goomba". {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:55, February 10, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::I'll repeat what I've said [[Talk:Mame-san#Name source|here]]: this is analogous to Big Goomba in ''Super Mario Maker 2'' (and almost certainly ''Super Mario Run'') and as such there is no obvious name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:51, February 11, 2024 (EST)

From what I understand, the newer policy's ''intent'' is to make judgement calls in cases where the only valid sources are incomplete file names or vague descriptions (like the infamous "vehicle with surfboard" being too clunky for an article name), meaning this is an abuse of it (and regardless of whether this ''does'' follow the intent or not, it's a good illustration of how bad an idea it is). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:12, March 15, 2024 (EDT)
: Well then, let's switch it back to the Japanese name instead of making up an English name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:12, March 15, 2024 (EDT)
::I'm also going to add, for the record, that I don't think "[[Special:Diff/4155052|Wonder Hoppycat]]" was a good move either, based on conclusions so far raised [[User talk:Jdtendo#Re:Hoppin≠Hoppycat|here]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:56, March 15, 2024 (EDT)

Pardon me for cutting in, but I wonder why the enemy is named "Hefty Goombrat" instead of "Big Goombrat"? It's just a bigger version of a Goombrat. Maybe there's a reason why it's named that that I'm unaware of? {{User:Sparks/sig}} 11:02, March 15, 2024 (EDT)
:I think it was because a Japanese ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' source uses the same term for these enemies used for Hefty Goomba. Why this and not the giant Swirlypod, I don't follow. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:07, March 15, 2024 (EDT)
::Oh. It seems inconsistent, but if that's what the source says, then I understand now. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 11:09, March 15, 2024 (EDT)

== Rename to it's English name ==

Not to sound racist or anything but English names suit most characters better. So we should keep it as big goombrat. [[Special:Contributions/109.150.62.3|109.150.62.3]] 11:59, December 15, 2024 (EST)

== Kodeka Conversation ==
As per the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#A reconsidering of "derived names"|recently passed proposal]], articles can use derived names when their components are easy to infer from official localizations. This subject fits the criteria, but is clearly controversial during and even before the proposal. So, discussion! I've noticed some significant positions to be taken, and prepared some arguments for each. Note that this is '''NOT''' a formal proposal (yet), but a casual talk page discussion. I want all possible perspectives on the issue without the urgency of a timer or the need to vote from a given list of options.

'''Arguments for "Big Goombrat"'''
* There is no larger Goombrat variant, so the specificity of "Hefty" is unnecessary.
* Its filename is <code>EnemyBigKakibo</code>.

'''Arguments for "Hefty Goombrat"'''
* It uses the specific word ''kodeka'', just like the Kokeka Kuribō, aka Hefty Goomba. The decision to do this despite the lack of a larger variety may suggest intentional relation.
* Its behavior matches with the Hefty Goomba very closely, as it is 2 tiles tall and splits into regular Goombrats.

'''Arguments for "Kodeka Kakibō"'''
* A translation for ''kodeka'' is only provided by the [[Hefty Goomba]], which is not an overwhelming amount of support.

Important note, all of these points are also relevant to [[Hefty Swirlypod|Kodeka Maimai]]. Discussion is simply here instead because of the Goombrat's apparent infamy.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:53, December 19, 2024 (EST)
:Based on the physiological and behavioral similarities between Goombas and Goombrats, the notably high quality of the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' Prima guidebook (where "Hefty Goomba" was first introduced), the retention of "Hefty Goomba" on Mario Portal, and the specifically shared behaviors between Hefty Goomba and Kodeka Kakibo, I think "Hefty Goombrat" is a perfectly reasonable extrapolation. I do not know if I can say that for the other Kodeka enemies since they have little similarities for us to compare with Goombas or Goombrats. But "Hefty Goombrat" itself is fine. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:53, December 19, 2024 (EST)
::Considering Hefty Goomba is already an official name, and a current [[Hefty Goomba|page name]] too, I would support Hefty Goombrat. I think we should keep the naming as close to other officially name enemies for ease of finding and access, which would be why I'm throwing my support behind Hefty Goombrat.--{{User:Ninja Squid/sig}} 00:04, December 20, 2024 (EST) 
Let's just wait for the localizers to lend a definitive English name for the enemy and avoid counterproductive speculation and dot-connecting. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 23:33, December 19, 2024 (EST)
:Derived names were agreed to be acceptable by proposal, so we will discuss derived names. Please don't clog these discussions with snark about the concept itself irrelevant to the topic, that being how best to deal with each individual subject under the wiki's guidelines.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 23:48, December 19, 2024 (EST)
::You'd have a point if I waved the same comment across all talk pages where you raised similar issues, but here, I was directly addressing Kodeka Kakibo. Your accusation that I'm "clogging" the discussion with a point of view that you deem "irrelevant" is risible.<br>The proposal conditioned that names would only be derived if the original names are straightforward enough to lend one obvious English adaptation according to pre-existent naming criteria. "Kodeka Kakibo" can veer in more than one way, based on some loose parallels that you even signalled above ("A translation for kodeka is only provided by the Hefty Goomba, which is not an overwhelming amount of support"). Neither of these speculative naming choices are particularly optimal over the other and may boil down to taste. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 01:30, December 20, 2024 (EST)
:::I'm sorry for making a snap judgment about your intent. I was worrying a lot that discussion of these names would be overrun with concept-disapproving replies that don't help anyone, and your comment was upsetting to see mere hours after the proposal's passing. The elaboration you give in your reply is very reasonable.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 10:25, December 20, 2024 (EST)
::::It's fine. If we ought to go one way or another, I prefer "Big Goombrat" per your supporting arguments. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:11, December 22, 2024 (EST)

I would like to remind folks to assume good faith. Part of the derived names proposal was to have these types of discussions for edge cases, which the Kodeka Goombrat certainly qualifies for. I don't think anyone here has said or done anything uncouth in voicing their perspective. We all want the wiki to succeed and to make the best decisions we can with the material we've been dealt. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 04:22, December 20, 2024 (EST)

:I say we move. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, December 20, 2024 (EST)

:I think moving this and other "Kodeka" enemies using the term "Hefty" isn't too much of a stretch. Lately, the translations for resized enemies and the like have been fairly consistent (with exceptions like "Sledge Bro" predating the standardization of these names). "Deka" is translated as "Big", "Kyodai" as "Mega", "Chibi" as "Small", "Mame" as "Mini", "Mega" as "Heavy"... I'd say it's safe to assume the use of "Hefty" for "Kodeka" will be similarly consistent. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:01, December 20, 2024 (EST)

New note about this kodeka agenda: [[Hefty Smogrin|Kodeka Mokumokumo]] is actually a fourth entity to use the "kodeka" prefix, and its use is much like that of the Hefty Goomba: It's a middle size between the normal [[Smogrin]] and the [[Big Smogrin|Deka Mokumokumo]]. Just something else to keep in mind now.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 02:51, December 21, 2024 (EST)
:The wiki previously regarded Kodeka Mokumokumo and Deka Mokumokumo as "Big Mokomokumo" and "Giant Mokumokumo" respectively, which I assume originates from Wonder's internal files, with the latter being stated as such [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Bros._Wonder&diff=4036034&oldid=4036006 through prior revisions]. This also follows the naming schemes for [[Hefty Goomba]] and [[Mega Goomba|Big Goomba]], which internal files call them Big Kuribo and Giant Kuribo respectively.<br>I would've initially liked to say that maybe we should check the internal filename for Hefty Goomba in ''Wonder'' and see if it's any different from that of Kodeka Kakibo, Kodeka Maimai and Kodeka Mokumokumo, but as I just said, it uses the adjective "Big" like the aforementioned Kodeka enemies. So, I suppose this would mean that Big (internal) = Kodeka, which in turn = Hefty. Unless Nintendo changed it here and renames Hefty Goombas to Big Goombas, and Big Goombas to Giant Goombas. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:39, December 21, 2024 (EST)
::I am still opposed to the new policy... But if i'm going with a name, i'd choose to refer to them as Hefty. They ''do'' function like a hefty Goomba after all --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:35, December 26, 2024 (EST)
:::The ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' internal names should also be cross-checked against ''Super Mario Run'''s for good measure. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:02, December 28, 2024 (EST)

== Kodeka Confirmation ==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|vetoed|Mario Portal updated to give official English names to ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' enemies}}
[[Hefty Goombrat|Kodeka Kakibō]] is applicable for a derived name, but it is rather controversial. The previous discussion has definitely shown as such, so a proper proposal it gets. '''Should Kodeka Kakibō be moved to a derived name, or stay where it is?'''

This proposal only has two options rather than the discussion's 3, as "Big Goombrat" doesn't actually follow derived name policy. <code>EnemyBigKakibo</code> is its internal name in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'', yes, but [[Hefty Goomba]]'s is also <code>EnemyBigKuribo</code>. It would be dishonest to follow it out of context, and it's still a lower priority name than "Kodeka Kakibō". "Kodeka" only officially translates to "hefty", so it's that or nothing.

With that, I believe that moving to [[Hefty Goombrat]] is a fine idea, as everything about the the Kodeka Kakibō points to it being a direct parallel to the Hefty Goomba: Function, size, Japanese name, and internal ''SMBW'' name. "Hefty Goomba" itself is a consistently used translation in the Mario Portal for the Kodeka Kuribō, and really doesn't seem to just some one-off guidebook name.

When voting, keep in mind the other subjects referred to with "kodeka": [[Hefty Swirlypod|Kodeka Maimai]], a slightly larger [[Swirlypod]] comparable to the Kodeka Kakibō; and the [[Hefty Smogrin|Kodeka Mokumokumo]], an enemy in-between the sizes of the regular [[Smogrin]] and [[Big Smogrin|Deka Mokumokumo]], much like the Hefty Goomba's place between the standard Goomba and the [[Big Goomba]]. This proposal does formally only pertain to moving Kodeka Kakibō and not these other two, but it would be appreciated if you mentioned your thoughts on these other subjects in your vote as well.

'''Proposer''': {{User|PopitTart}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 29, 2025, 23:59 GMT

====Support: Move to Hefty Goombrat====
#{{User|PopitTart}} Per proposal. I would also support Hefty Swirlypod and Hefty Smogrin.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per proposal, this seems a reasonable application of the derived name policy. I would also support renaming the other enemies.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I cautiously support this, at least for the time being. I feel like most of the reservations with this derived name are more so tied to Goombas and their overlapping behaviors in a few mainline games, and less about the Goombrat itself. The earliest use of the prefix "Hefty" from the name of [[Hefty Goomba]] in the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' Prima Games guidebook, one of the best guidebooks by Prima Games as they have proper names for many subjects traditionally recognized in Japan, and with formal capitalized casing. I see no reason to think the name "Hefty Goomba" was a creation from Prima's authors, and it sees supported on Mario Portal on the pages for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', ''New Super Mario Bros. U'', and ''New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe''. The equivalent Japanese name for the moderately large Goomba in these specific games has always been "Kodeka Kuribo," and that remains true even if what is called Big Goombas in the ''Super Mario Maker'' games (called "Deka Kuribo" in Japan, I believe) is of equivalent size to Hefty Goombas and similarly splits into two normal Goombas when stomped. That remains contradictory and confusing regardless of the name we support here. For this Goombrat, the "Big Goombrat" in ''Super Mario Maker 2'' similarly behaves like Hefty Goombas in NSMBW and NSMBU, but for ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' specifically, which is largely informing this choice, it is occurring in a game that has reinstated the normal Goomba, Hefty Goomba, and Big Goomba trifecta, and the Japanese names for these subjects reflects the same naming conventions from ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' and ''New Super Mario Bros U''. Based on this knowledge, and the close relatedness between Goombas and Goombrats in behavior, appearance, and names, I think "Hefty Goombrat" is a conservative enough derived name for this subject with the information we have. How this relates to their appearances in the ''Super Mario Maker'' games is a matter for another day. I have more reservations about the other two enemies with "Kodeka" in their name, a little less for the Smogrin than for the Swirlypod, as the Smogrin is at least part of a three-scaled trifecta of enemies with similar naming conventions to Goombas. I do not think they have used "Hefty" enough for me to think it is a carte blanche equivalency for "Kodeka" in English, especially since the larger Swirlypod is the only large Swirlypod. I can see them naming it "Big Swirlypod" because the Hefty does not convey as much useful info.I do feel like I would comfortably support "Big Smogrin" over "Deka Mokumokumo" though.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per N101, basically. i do see Maker 2 as holding a bit less water, considering how everything in that game can become large. for the needs of that game, simply calling every 2x2 enemy "Deka X" or "Big X" is perfectly understandable, and so is having embiggened Goombas and Galoombas split into two regular ones. from this point in time and looking back, i interpret Big Goomba/Goombrat as a temporary break in naming convention to allow for internal consistency within the game itself, and i expect to be proven right in the future. if it's wrong, we can just move the article again, no biggie
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Hefty, Hefty, Hefty!
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all
#{{User|Shoey}} Eliminate all Japanese names!
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all
#{{User|Reese Rivers}} Per all, Nintendo101 especially.
#{{User|Mario}} This is a reasonable rename IMO.
#{{User|Qyzxf}} I have been waiting for this day to come. Also I would like to weigh in on the Smogrin / Swirlypod case wherein I think the Smogrin is a lot more reasonable to use a derived name for due to its three-tier size whereas Swirlypod is a bit more ambiguous with only two sizes (one has to wonder why they even named it Kodeka)

====Oppose: Keep at Kodeka Kakibō====
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne's comments in the above discussion. I don't doubt that "Hefty Goomba" is a valid name for that enemy, but I was under the impression in the derived names proposal that having only one prior case of a particular translation would be insufficient precedent to make a derived name based on it.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I agree with Hewer. Even if you disregard the ''[[Mega Goomba#Super Mario Maker / Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS / Super Mario Maker 2|Deka]]''/''[[Hefty Goomba#Super Mario Bros. Wonder|Kodeka]]'' divide, once cannot be enough to derive names.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per, there's not enough consistency to count this as derivable.
<s>#{{User|Weegie baby}} Official names have priority.</s>

====Little-Big Comments====
{{@|Weegie baby}} Per the derived name policy, [[MarioWiki:Naming#Derived names|derived names can take priority over the official names they are derived from]]. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 16:21, January 16, 2025 (EST)