Editing Talk:Hammer Bro

{{FATALK}}
==Boss?==
If Hammer Bro. was a boss, wouldn't it say Super Mario Bros. '''3''' on the boss page?

{{User:Mariofan132/sig}}

They aren't bosses, just enemies. They walk about the Map Screen at times, and if Mario touches one, he'll battle it. [[User:3dejong|3D]]

Hammer Bro. was a boss in [[Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix]] but it the [[boss]] page it mentions their first apperance not their first apperance as bosses. Understand? <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''[[User talk:Paper Jorge|aper]] '''[[User:Paper Jorge/sig|Jorge]]'''</font></span>

I wouldn't call it a boss in DDR. It was the first stage in the world. [[User:Hisak|Hisak]] 18:12, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Hammer Bros. are bosses in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars though. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

==Name==
Is Hammer Brother the official name? I've only seen it reffered to as "Hammer Bro." {{USER:Super Luigi Sunshine/sig}}

In addition to being mention in a couple of Mario Party mini-game descriptions, Hammer Brother is the longer version of a Hammer Bro..{{User:Knife/sig}} 15:43, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

I've read a few manuals (SMB3, etc.) they called them Hammer Brothers, same with the Fire Brothers, Boomerang Brothers, Sledge Brothers. -- [[User: Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

==I Have A Hammer Brother Map Icon Picture from SMB3 (GBA version)==
I took a couple pictures of the Hammer Brother Map Icon from SMA4 (Super Mario Advance 4) with my camera phone. as soon as i learn how to upload them to the computer, i could submit them. is the map icon neccessary or useful?
From,
Ninja Lucario

If it is extremely bad quality, it may be removed (which is the case with most camera phones :P. While it isn't necessary, it would be useful.{{User:Knife/sig}} 15:42, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

I have 2 different ones. as i've said, as soon as i figure out how to upload them to the computer i will submit them. Ninja_Lucario

change of plans: i will take new pictures with a digital camera and my Game Boy Player (it turns out i dont have the cable for my phone). i'll take the pictures and upload them sometime this week

sorry for the inconvenience,Knife

Ninja_Lucario

==No dot.==
In ''Mario Party DS'', "Hammer Bro" is spelled without the period.
Change the title, spelling, et ceterah? {{User:Dodoman/sig}}
:Nope. Mario Party DS is the ''only'' game to call them '''Hammer Bros''' without the period. Now if another game calls it that...[[User:Pseudo-dino|Then maybe it'll]] [[User talk:Pseudo-dino|be valid.]]

==Why does He like Music?==
Why did he choose to take over Toadette's Music room? Is he a musician? [[User: Mecha-Boss Unit]]

=="Sub-Species"==
Can I ask why Boomerang Bro, Fire Bro., Sumo Bro., etc are considered "sub-species" of Hammer Bro.? If they were hammer-wielding, boomerang throwing/fire-spitting, sumo-wrestling enemies then, yes, I suppose they would be. The only connection between the two are they have "Bro." in their name and they specialize in some weapon or technique. I would think they'd be sub-species directly from [[Koopa]s rather than Hammer Bro. The only true sub-species of Hammer Bro. would be Amazing Flyin' Hammer Bro., Calm Amazing Flyin' Hammer Bro., Calm Hammer Bro., Dark Hammer Bro. and ''maybe'' Sledge Bro.. Is my reasoning right, or...? [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 10:18, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:The Boomerang Bro. and Fire Bro. have the same shell, same helmet, overall same physical appearance as the Hammer Bros. except for their colour, and they have a similar movement/attack pattern aside from the weapon they use and are found guarding treasure chests in SMB3 just like the Hammer Bros. - and they are, in fact, listed as Hammer Bro. variations on Japanese Wikipedia. I've never thought of the Sumo Bro. as being related to the Hammer Brothers in any way though personally , since they look and act very different, their German name is simply "Sumo-Koopa" (so it doesn't even have the Bruder (brother) part) and their Japanese name (listed as K.K. in Super Mario World's credits) doesn't seem to indicate any relation either. The "Hammer Bro. sub-species" thing only seems to be hinted at in the English version of the game for some reason.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 11:24, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::Well if they have the same appearance and everything is the same but their choice of weapon, shouldn't that meant that they are ''also'' sub-species of Koopa Troopas? It makes no sense to assume that they're all somehow descended from Hammer Bros. A far likelier thought would be that, in-universe, some Koopa Troopas train with hammers, some with boomerangs, some with fire, etc. and that "Weapon/Technique" is a job-title and "Bros." is a title/position. The species infobox already has a section for "Related Enemies", so it wouldn't take so much to move some stuff around. For example, for Hammer Bros., Amazing Flyin' Hammer Bro., Calm Amazing Flyin' Hammer Bro., Calm Hammer Bro., Dark Hammer Bro. and Sledge Bro would stay under Sub-species (because they all still use hammers, and are apparently only of differing temperament/personality) while the others would be moved to Related Enemies, because they fill a similar role, just in a different way. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 11:56, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::Hammer Bros. types aren't only characterised by the fact they carry a hammer; both the games and official artwork portrait Hammer Bros. as a different species of turtle than the regular Koopa Troopa (look at their beaks for instance). Since Boomerang and Fire Bros. share the appearance of the Hammer Bro. and not the appearance of a Koopa Troopa, they'd be related to the Hammer Bro. and not the KT. There's of course no way to clearly determine whether the Boomerang Bro. for example would have descended from the Hammer Bro. or vice-versa (in-universe, that is), but fact is that they're the same species (which is different species than the Koopa Troopa) and Hammer Bros. were the first to appear in games, so it's probably safe to assume they existed before the others (and at least from a game development perspective they quite clearly served as the base for the other types).--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 12:14, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::Yeah, I was curious about the differing appearance. While they were originally bipedal and Troopas quadrupedal, Troopas have been "updated" to also be bipedal in recent years. The physical differences between them also very, where-in some media there's very little, if any difference. When there is a difference, the only things appear to be a smaller beak and more-visibly segmented shells. In any case, the article still links to the [[Koopa Troopa]] (species) article rather than the [[Koopa]] (general "turtle" "race") article, so that should be changed. I'm still wary of classifying any of the other Bro. enemies under the Hammer Bro. mantle, since even if they are a different Koopa species outside of Koopa Troopas, they would all be divisions of that species, not Hammer Bros. I was considering making a general article listing all the different Bros., much like the Koopa article lists the different Koopas, but the only name I could come up with was "Koopa Bros.". Obviously it fits well as a species' name or title, it still calls to mind the Paper Mario enemies. "Koopa Bros. (species/class/group)" could work, but I really don't know. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 12:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::Since their species is never named in the games, an article like that would be mostly speculation (the name in particular), so in my opinion (since this is a Wiki) it might be better to keep it the way it is, using only information that can actually be obtained from canonical sources, and the only thing we can obtain from those is that Boomerang Bros. etc. are similar to Hammer Bros. and were invented (by the creators of the games) after them (and their designs based on them; they are no more than palette swaps, in fact). Just my two cents, other people may have a different opinion on this.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 12:41, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::Well, that's why we have the {conjecture} tag. Easily notifies readers that the title of the article is made-up, while the information therein is factual. It's been used often enough that it isn't exactly a "last-ditch resolution" tag, but something acceptable. Besides, an article as basic as the [[Koopa]] article that groups together the various Bros. and speaks of their related history based only on factual evidence isn't the worst article to be proposed. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 12:46, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::Thing is that the only information about their "related history" that could be acquired from canonical sources is the fact that the Hammer Bro.-like enemies were based on (and named after) the Hammer Bros. by the developers, so we might as well leave it the way it is (listing them in the Hammer Bro. article). Making a seperate article trying to show the relation of them would only over-complicate things. Besides, I don't think the tag about the title being made up has ever been used for anything else than articles on elements/creatures actually directly being referenced (or appearing) in the games which had just never received an official name. All the Bro. enemies have official names already.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 13:14, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::Though they were based on (though more ''inspired'' by, rather) the Hammer Bros., saying they were named after them is probably a bit too far. It seems far likely that "Bro." is intended to be a title of sorts. The proposed article gathering them together wouldn't be an attempt to relate them in any way, it would simply put the class-type in one place. No one seems to be complaining about the [[Koopa]] article, which does much the same thing with far more controversial enemies. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 13:19, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::I'm saying "named after them" by game development terms. It is highly unlikely the game developers intended "Bro." as any sort of title, but rather simply named them Boomerang Bros. and Fire Bros. because they already had Hammer Bros. and the new enemies they based on them were similar.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 13:24, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::The tag has also been used for similar circumstances. It's not specifically for subjects that don't have a name, but for general groupings that don't have an official name. I'm not entirely sure if "Koopa" as a general name for all the turtle-like species in the series is entirely official either. As to your latest posting, whether or not "Bro." was originally a title or not seems to be retconned or whatever due to how the term has extended from "Weapon Bros." to actual positions and techniques, which is far more suggestive of a title. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 13:28, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::::"Koopa" as the name for the turtles is in fact established as early as the English-language Super Mario Bros. instruction manual: "[...]the Koopa, a tribe of turtles[...]" And I still think speculation like that should be avoided if possible, and it is entirely possible to avoid it here by simply grouping them all under Hammer Bro. sub-species, which makes the most sense from official information. There's a lot of other sites and forums on the internet where people can speculate about the origin and/or relation of Hammer Bro. types, but a Wiki should not be the place to do that. A single person's barely supported theory about something can hardly be considered information that should be in an encyclopaedia.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 13:46, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::::That isn't specific. Is it referring to the Koopa enemy (as it was known at the time, "Troopa" being added later), or the supposed "Koopa" tribe of various turtle-like enemies. It can go any way, and is just as speculatory as you suggest what I'm saying is. And how exactly is an article grouping together the Bros. enemies a theory, when they all clearly have the word "Bro." in their name? You suggesting they're all sub-species of Hammer Bros. is far more speculation than simply grouping them together in an article and not saying anything at all. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 13:50, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::::::Their being derived from Hammer Bros. is less of a theory since it's hard to believe they would have been designed independently.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 13:54, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::::::Being a "theory" is speculation, and I'm not making a theory. Whether or not the various Bros. were inspired as "pallet" swaps of the original Hammer Bros. is fairly obvious, but applying it to in-universe material and labeling them "sub-species" is speculation. My alternative, moving the ones that came later to "Related Enemies" and only keeping the variations in "Sub-species" is a fair compromise that does away with the speculation. Making an article grouping them together is no speculation at all because it's essentially a list of the various "Bros." enemies, which you've basically said yourself are sub-species of each other anyways, so, by your own logic, would be perfectly fine on such a page. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 13:58, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::::::::I agree that "sub-species" seems rather in-universe, but it appears to be the standard definition on the Wiki for groups of enemies derived from another enemy.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 14:03, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::::::::Then why don't we change it? The most specific and non-speculation changes would be "Derived Enemies" and "Source Enemy". But in the end, while more clear, they still carry the same connotations and moving some enemies into the largely-unused "Related Enemies" section would be in order. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 14:09, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::It's probably not being changed because it's already being used on a whole lot of articles, and would have to be changed for every single one. I like the uniformness of how is currently is. "Related enemies" seems to be more for similar enemies making their first appearance in the same game as the base enemy, like the recolours of enemies in the Super Mario RPG (cmiiw).--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 14:14, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::Actually, they wouldn't. Just go into the template and change the title for the corresponding areas in the table. The coding remains the same, so people can continue to type "|sub_species=", but it will result in different text. All previous articles will be effected without need for changing. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 14:19, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::The sub-species section in the article isn't part of a template.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 14:29, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::::This is the only page to have such a Sub-species section. It would take me less than a minute to revise it. What's the problem? [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 14:35, 3 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::::The problem is that it's NOT the only page to have a sub-species section. (The Shy Guy article, for instance, has one as well.)--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 14:38, 3 December 2009 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::::::I already did a search on this. Less than five pages have such sections, and after personally reviewing each, only the Hammer Bros. section needs revision in my opinion. The others are consistent with what the terms Origin Species and Sub-species mean/should mean. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 14:42, 3 December 2009 (EST)

==Align==
I can't seem to align the Paper Mario enemy box to the right, even though I'm filling in the correct code. Any suggestions? [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 11:32, 8 December 2009 (EST)
:Look at the code, it had 2 aligns:
:'''''|align=right'''''
:|image=blablabla.png
:|bla=50px
:|blab=lablablablablablablablablabla…
:'''''|align=left'''''
:Always look at those. {{User:SWFlash/Sig}}

==Super Mario RPG Hammer Brothers==
I'm just wondering how we have a psychopath thought when Mallow isn't accessible at the time? Or is the psychopath from a hack? 

~Darkfawful2~

Beta elements {{User:Mario Bros.!/sig}}

==Mario Party==
Unless there are any ways to expand most of his Mario Party appearances... Would it be smarter to merge the earlier Mario Party sections into a whole? {{User:Master Crash/sig}} Or maybe the entire Mario Party into a whole.

I agree. A lot of the other species articles do the same thing. Even the [[Mario]] article lumps all of his Mario Party information into one paragraph.--{{User|Knife}} 18:34, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

Alright, so unless anyone has any objections, i'll merge the Mario Parties together. {{User:Master Crash/sig}}
==Mario kart==
Well if we want to expand it why don't we put it makes camoes in MK games, and was cut from MK Wii.
{{unsigned|1=D*=?}}
:You can put a scrapped appearance in the Trivia section if you want it to be consistent with other articles, and if you make a complete, well-written section on cameos in the Mario Kart games, it should stand. {{User:Bop1996/sig}}

== FA ==

This is a FA, so why isn't it on the main FA page. {{User|Koopa K}}
:<s>Because it's not it's turn on the rotation</s> I now see what you are saying but it is on the page it's just up much further because it was previously featured. {{User|Raven Effect}}

== Abbreviation ==
This has bugged me for a while. Why is the "Bro" in the name abbreviated incorrectly? Grammatically, abbreviations are supposed to be followed by a period, like Dr., Mr., Mrs., and Abbr. Heck, [[Mario Bros. (game)|''Mario Bros.'']] and ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'' is spelled this way. Why are the Hammer Bros., [[Boomerang Bro]]s., and [[Fire Bro]]s. special cases here? "Bro." is short for "Brother". Is there something I'm missing? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:47, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
:Because that's the way the games spell them. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 17:49, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
:They are named that way because that's their official name, ''Hammer BRO'', not ''Hammer BROTHER''. This isn't a case of ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'', where it is called both ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'' and ''[[New Super Mario Brothers]]''. {{User:Skuchi037/sig}} 17:50, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
::Seems inconsistent then. Looking at ''[[Mario Sports Superstars]]'', they are abbreviated correctly. EDIT: Check that, it's "Bros." Is just Bros. abbreviated correctly but not "Bro"? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:55, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
:::It's one of those things that isn't consistent between games (example: [https://youtu.be/UW3-OA7tluw?t=308 ''Partners in Time''], ''[[Sticker_(Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl)#H|Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]''). {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 18:48, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

==Heart Bro==
According to Supper Mario Broth as seen [https://twitter.com/MarioBrothBlog/status/1085711049695916033 here], the Hammer Bros that appear in ''[[Mario the Juggler]]'' are called ''Heart Bros'' that have several unique pieces of unique artwork and as they have a unique name they would warrant a page, however while I do not doubt that Supper Mario Broth has found an official source of the enemy's name, I could not find where the name came from outside that post, as the post's sources are for the images itself, not the enemies name, and the American instruction booklet for ''Mario The Juggler'' named these enemies generic Hammer Bros., although a unique name may be in a instruction booklet from another region, however I have not found other manuals regarding Mario the Juggler. If the source for the name ''Heart Bro'' is not  found it may still warrant a page as a conjectural name as it would make sense along the lines of Boomerang Bro and Fire Bro, although this should be discussed first. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 18:29, 17 January 2019 (EST)
:Not if the Lakitu doesn't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:37, 17 January 2019 (EST)
:I have contacted Supper Mario Broth concerning this matter and he responded saying he deleted that very post specifically because he mistook an unofficial source for the name Heart Bro. As far as he knows that name is entirely unofficial, so no new page or even mention of it on the wiki is necessary. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 10:32, June 25, 2023 (EDT)

== Pan Bros ==

I added Pan Bros from Mario Odyssey as a variant, but then someone removed it. What is the reason that Pan Bros don't count as a variant? --{{user|SuperGarfieldWorld}} 10:22, March 16, 2020 (EDT)
:The reason was explained in the [[Special:Diff/2907860|edit summary]], but to elaborate a bit more, they are literally considered the same thing by the game itself, with the difference merely aesthetic. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:36, March 16, 2020 (EDT)
::Oh, I always though they were considered separate within the game. Thanks for explaining, though. I probably should've checked the in-game Capture List before I put that, now that I think about it -{{user:SuperGarfieldWorld/sig}} 11:22, March 17, 2020 (EDT)

== Super Mario RPG shell color  ==

Here's something I noticed. In the remake, the Hammer Bros have black shells and helmets, and this seems to be based on the original game's depiction. However, neither the sprite nor the render in the original game make the color of the shell particularly clear, due to the harsh lighting on the model, which makes even parts of the arms and chest appear black. But the Hammer Bros in the parade clearly have black helmets and ''green'' shells, like in All Stars, which is probably the intended color scheme. So my question is: does the black shell in the remake count as a character design change? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:05, December 7, 2023 (EST)
:Probably just an inconsistency on the credits' part. I've used the dropper tool to check the art color and it's not even tinted green - unlike the similarly black-looking shells on [[Terrapin]]s' and [[Torte]]s' artwork, which do show a green tint on the dropper. Also note the inconsistent color of Mushroom Castle's roof. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:05, December 7, 2023 (EST)

== Shova ==

Shouldn't shova be a hammer bro/sledge bro variant? [[Special:Contributions/31.104.129.126|31.104.129.126]] 17:19, January 1, 2025 (EST)
:Functionally, it seems more similar to Boom-Boom in how it's one of those strong, big-handed ones that takes three hits. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:42, January 1, 2025 (EST)

How about we can make them relatives of [[Sledge Bro]]s? [[Special:Contributions/148.252.144.160|148.252.144.160]] 01:54, January 18, 2025 (EST)

What's a shova? [[Special:Contributions/98.235.155.81|98.235.155.81]] 12:36, January 19, 2025 (EST)
:Use the search bar. It's ''right'' there. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:37, January 19, 2025 (EST)

Ok. [[Special:Contributions/98.235.155.81|98.235.155.81]] 12:37, January 19, 2025 (EST)
:(Edit conflict) Please stop posting "What is a (insert enemy name here)?" comments. Just search them up like Ray Trace said. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 12:38, January 19, 2025 (EST)

Ok, I'll stop and I did use the search bar like he asked and it appears that Shovas are new to the franchise as they debuted in 2023. [[Special:Contributions/98.235.155.81|98.235.155.81]] 12:40, January 19, 2025 (EST)

==Split the 1337 HAMM3R BROZ.==
{{TPP}}
This is, of course, about the duo that appear in ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'', in case you weren't already aware of them. Simply put, we think there are a good few reasons to split these guys off:
* In case you aren't aware for one reason or another, these guys have a very unique role in Partners in Time, being effectively the analogues to the [[Hammerhead Bros.]] from ''Superstar Saga''. They're a duo that introduce hammer mechanics, and are given a unique name.
* More specifically to these guys, while they're rather lacking in unique physical appearance beyond their mind-control helmets, their dialogue is ''anything'' but that, and they are very much treated as unique characters. You almost definitely don't need us to tell you that, in the English version, they speak in 1337SP34K while under the Shroobs' control. What might be a bit more obscure is how other localizations handled this; Japanese uses strictly katakana, Korean has intentional spacing and spelling errors, French uses texting lingo of the era, Spanish just has them speak in all-caps... no matter which way you slice it, though, the 1337 HAMM3R BROZ. are ''very'' unique as far as both the narrative and literal script of the game is concerned.
* In addition, they're the only Hammer Bros. in the game; they aren't just ''some'' Hammer Bros. that appear, but '''the''' Hammer Bros., and are treated uniquely; kind of like how we already split, say, [[Mole (presenter)|the presenter Monty Moles of Superstar Saga]].

The main conundrum is what to split ''to'', since both "Hammer Bros. (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)" and "1337 H4MMER BR0Z" are valid names for the duo; while the latter is more unique, it's also only used by them while they are under the Shroobs' mind control. Whatever the case, if we go for a split, we would like it if the other split option becomes a redirect (e.g. if 1337 HAMM3R BROZ. wins, Hammer Bros. (M&L:PiT) becomes a redirect). (As an aside, we're also, admittedly, unsure if BROZ has a zero or a capital O in it? we've been using a capital O for this proposal, but if someone can confirm one or the other, that'd be appreciated; the actual section body is a bit unclear.)

'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Split to "1337 HAMM3R BROZ." (1337 3D171N6 5K1LLZ!!)===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option; while it doesn't seem to be their "actual" name, it is a title they refer to themselves by, and it is far more unique, and we feel strongly about making this split thanks to their very, well, ''unique'' character writing, both in the metaphorical sense of "they're treated like unique characters by the story, since they're the only Hammer Bros. in the game" and in the literal sense of "you can't get more mid-2000s than using 1337speak to convey all-katakana dialogue."
#{{User|Rykitu}} P3R PR0P0S4L
#{{User|Salmancer}}, uh, talked to myself in the comments a bit. But yeah, I believe more in the principles of my pros here.

===Split to "Hammer Bros. (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')" (M04R F0RM4L PLZ!!)===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; while we're less gung-ho about a name like this, we think that this ''should'' still be split one way or another.
#{{User|Salmancer}} the precise name isn't that important.

===Keep merged (xXx_5747UZ_QU0_xXx)===

===Comments (Type normally, please!)===
You don't seem to be aware that these were split before and were merged as a result of [[Talk:Hammer Bro (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)#Merge to Hammer Bros. (mach deux)|this proposal]]. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 12:58, February 7, 2025 (EST)
:We'll be honest, we didn't know of this, but we don't particularly agree with the merge reasons--admittedly, this is mostly because of personal taste of what counts as being "unique enough", but if [[Hammer Bro captain]] can be split (which we ''swear'' must exist due to proposal, but can't figure out which one caused it?), we can't think of many reasons to not split the ''PiT'' Hammer Bros. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:04, February 7, 2025 (EST)

They're just "Hammer Bros." in the battle labels and it's clear that that is not their "normal" state. The game considers them to be just "Hammer Bros." even in the altered state. Worth noting in the original Japanese script, the only oddity of their speech is just speaking in a stilted, robotic manner while under control, not the wacky thing the English localization did. Also, the "narrative role" thing can also be said of the ones from SMRPG. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:00, February 7, 2025 (EST)
:We're ''very'' aware of the Japanese script handling things differently, and in fact, the absolute smorgasbord of different ways different localizations handled these guys is part of why we think a split could be necessary. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:04, February 7, 2025 (EST)

Pros: The speech should carry the article. Mario & Luigi cutscenes live on funny character voices, the cutscenes are mechanically the reward for playing the game and go hard on the wacky to justify it. Which means how they are being interpreted in localization matters. This is a video game, the characters granting the player an entire mechanic should have their own article. The helmets do count as a unique appearance, even though they get smashed and even if they have more appearances without said helmets. (Like, they have to have been part of the concept art.) It is easier to use Super Mario Wiki as a reference while playing a game if boss fights have separate pages, an opinion already taken with regards to locations across games.

Cons: Proposals floating around says being an individual version of an enemy does not get you a page ([[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Merge M&L (Dream Team and Paper Jam) and PM (Sticker Star) Wigglers with Wiggler|1]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|2]]), a factoid extending as far as a named group of enemies if the [[Chargin' Chuck#Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam|Chargin' Chuck Corps]] is any indication. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:30, February 7, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 125: / Line 125: @@
 == Shova ==
-{{closed|title=Repetitive questions; please revert any similar follow up questions rather than respond|
 Shouldn't shova be a hammer bro/sledge bro variant? [[Special:Contributions/31.104.129.126|31.104.129.126]] 17:19, January 1, 2025 (EST)
 :Functionally, it seems more similar to Boom-Boom in how it's one of those strong, big-handed ones that takes three hits. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:42, January 1, 2025 (EST)
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 Ok, I'll stop and I did use the search bar like he asked and it appears that Shovas are new to the franchise as they debuted in 2023. [[Special:Contributions/98.235.155.81|98.235.155.81]] 12:40, January 19, 2025 (EST)
-Let's stay on topic, should we make them relatives of Sledge bros? {{Unsigned|90.216.251.105}}
-:[[Shova]]s don't resemble Sledge Bros. enough in appearance and have a completely different behavior from them so they aren't really related beyond just being [[Koopa (species)|Koopas]]. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 14:20, February 25, 2025 (EST)
-::I see. [[Special:Contributions/90.216.251.105|90.216.251.105]] 14:27, February 25, 2025 (EST)
-}}
 ==Split the 1337 HAMM3R BROZ.==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-4-9|do not split}}
 This is, of course, about the duo that appear in ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'', in case you weren't already aware of them. Simply put, we think there are a good few reasons to split these guys off:
 * In case you aren't aware for one reason or another, these guys have a very unique role in Partners in Time, being effectively the analogues to the [[Hammerhead Bros.]] from ''Superstar Saga''. They're a duo that introduce hammer mechanics, and are given a unique name.
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 #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option; while it doesn't seem to be their "actual" name, it is a title they refer to themselves by, and it is far more unique, and we feel strongly about making this split thanks to their very, well, ''unique'' character writing, both in the metaphorical sense of "they're treated like unique characters by the story, since they're the only Hammer Bros. in the game" and in the literal sense of "you can't get more mid-2000s than using 1337speak to convey all-katakana dialogue."
 #{{User|Rykitu}} P3R PR0P0S4L
-<s>#{{User|Salmancer}}, uh, talked to myself in the comments a bit. But yeah, I believe more in the principles of my pros here.</s>
+#{{User|Salmancer}}, uh, talked to myself in the comments a bit. But yeah, I believe more in the principles of my pros here.
 ===Split to "Hammer Bros. (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')" (M04R F0RM4L PLZ!!)===
 #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; while we're less gung-ho about a name like this, we think that this ''should'' still be split one way or another.
-#{{User|Salmancer}} the precise name isn't that important. EDIT: per the second and last sentence from Super Mario RPG
+#{{User|Salmancer}} the precise name isn't that important.
-#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I strongly believe that we should do this option. They are not always leet, only while mind-controlled. Added atop the fact is that this is only something in English localization, which I believe we should not be giving precedence if we're to consider Japanese, the language under which the game was developed. They're just Hammer Bros., and when taking all of the languages into account, the fact of the matter is that they're Hammer Bros. with different dialogue while mind controlled, not exclusively leet.
-#{{User|Cadrega86}} per Super Mario RPG.
 ===Keep merged (xXx_5747UZ_QU0_xXx)===
-#{{User|Blinker}} I don't think having a unique role is a good enough reason to split. Subjects have varying roles between games, that's a thing that happens. If having a different role and manner of speech than usual is enough for a split, let's bring back [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Hootenanny|Hootenanny]] (okay, I'm exaggerating, but still). And these two only have a unique manner of speech while brainwashed, which, as memorable as it is, is just a thing that happens TO them. After the fight, they're just...normal Hammer Bros. At the end of the day, that's what they are. <small>Also, consistency with the Super Mario Advance characters.</small>
-#{{User|Mario}} The game still refers to these as plain Hammer Bros.. They're just mind-controlled to remind players they're playing a mid 2000's game. The article for [[Hammer Bro. captain]] doesn't make a strong case for leaving split either. At least those Mole presenters have a different appearance.
-#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
-#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per Blinker and partially Super Mario RPG. The leetspeak is memorable and all, but it's purely an English localization quirk at the end of the day. I'll add that most likely, the primary reason other localizations handled them differently is because they were seemingly translated ''from'' the English version that added the leetspeak in and there's no direct equivalent in most other languages, so they had to get creative in their own ways. The exception is the Korean version which I believe follows the Japanese script for the most part, but as far as I'm aware, modern Korean only has one writing system while Japanese has three, so it's not like they could have directly replicated that approach either.
-#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all. These are just Hammer Bros. without anything especially noteworthy about them to warrant a split.
-#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all and the proposal that merged them.
-#{{User|YoYo}} per all.
-#{{User|SComic}} Per All.
-#{{User|Sdman213}} P3r 4ll.
 ===Comments (Type normally, please!)===
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 Cons: Proposals floating around says being an individual version of an enemy does not get you a page ([[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Merge M&L (Dream Team and Paper Jam) and PM (Sticker Star) Wigglers with Wiggler|1]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|2]]), a factoid extending as far as a named group of enemies if the [[Chargin' Chuck#Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam|Chargin' Chuck Corps]] is any indication. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:30, February 7, 2025 (EST)
-:You argue as though they don't already have an article covering them. Why can them talking funny not be adequately covered on the [[Hammer Bro]] article? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:46, February 7, 2025 (EST)
-Alternatively, we could have an article on the antennas since that's the piece of Shroob technology that causes the offending scene. [[RC Shroober]]s have a similar thing going on. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:12, February 7, 2025 (EST)