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| == Merging? == | | == Merging? == |
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| We can merge only if the Japanese name is the same. What about checking the Japanese name if it's the same name, or considered separate too? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:05, 14 September 2018 (EDT) | | We can merge only if the Japanese name is the same. What about checking the Japanese name if it's the same name, or considered separate too? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:05, 14 September 2018 (EDT) |
| :I know this is a late reply, but they'll be the same in SS, like in English, just different in CS. Note CS also gave named color differences to various Shy Guys we have merged. Since SS considered these to simply be Pokeys, and they're clearly the original Pokeys from SMB2 and Mario Clash, having them split from the SMB2 ones seems wrong to me. Additionally, splitting the SMB2 ones from the main page would just be silly. Therefore, I believe we should merge these like the Shy Guy colors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:48, September 27, 2020 (EDT) | | :I know this is a late reply, but they'll be the same in SS, like in English, just different in CS. Note CS also gave named color differences to various Shy Guys we have merged. Since SS considered these to simply be Pokeys, and they're clearly the original Pokeys from SMB2 and Mario Clash, having them split from the SMB2 ones seems wrong to me. Additionally, splitting the SMB2 ones from the main page would just be silly. Therefore, I believe we should merge these like the Shy Guy colors. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:48, September 27, 2020 (EDT) |
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| ::::Alright, thanks for taking the time for finding and showing the video. That was all I needed to know, so I agree that this article should absolutely be merged within the Pokey article considering they are based on their classic design too and like you said it would be odd to have this article be it's own while the classic pokey design is on the actual Pokey's article. I forgot to say in my last post that all of your other points are great points. --[[User:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|KingGeoshiKoopshi64]] ([[User talk:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|talk]]) 04:18, September 30, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::Alright, thanks for taking the time for finding and showing the video. That was all I needed to know, so I agree that this article should absolutely be merged within the Pokey article considering they are based on their classic design too and like you said it would be odd to have this article be it's own while the classic pokey design is on the actual Pokey's article. I forgot to say in my last post that all of your other points are great points. --[[User:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|KingGeoshiKoopshi64]] ([[User talk:KingGeoshiKoopshi64|talk]]) 04:18, September 30, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::These were previously split by a talk page proposal in 2015, so if you want to re-merge them, you'll have to start a new one. Personally, I would oppose for consistency with how we usually handle enemies in RPGs since they are functionally different enemies. Also, "they are clearly the SMB2 Pokeys" point doesn't really sit well with me because the SMB2 Pokeys are the same species as modern day Pokeys, just after going through design evolution. They were never considered separate until Sticker Star brought back the green ones as a fun reference, but keep in mind that [[Gloomba|this isn't the only time that the Paper Mario devs brought back an old enemy design as a variant]], and I think we should handle these the same way. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:27, September 30, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::These were previously split by a talk page proposal in 2015, so if you want to re-merge them, you'll have to start a new one. Personally, I would oppose for consistency with how we usually handle enemies in RPGs since they are functionally different enemies. Also, "they are clearly the SMB2 Pokeys" point doesn't really sit well with me because the SMB2 Pokeys are the same species as modern day Pokeys, just after going through design evolution. They were never considered separate until Sticker Star brought back the green ones as a fun reference, but keep in mind that [[Gloomba|this isn't the only time that the Paper Mario devs brought back an old enemy design as a variant]], and I think we should handle these the same way. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:27, September 30, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::As long as the Green Pokey article sticks to Sticker Star and Color Splash coverage, I think it works fine being in its own article. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}}
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| :::::::@Waluigi Time It would be consistent with how we handle "(color) (enemy name)" subjects in CS. Also, nothing in SS indicates that ''they'' are not intended as the "base" Pokey in that game. As for your rebuttal on the "same species as modern-day Pokeys" thing, that ''completely'' hinges on the assumption that these are ''not'' the same species as normal Pokeys, which doesn't work as a rebuttal since my argument is that they ''are''. As for Gloomba, the stage-based palette differences in SMB did not indicate an actual variation, and Gloomba's name isn't just a color appendation, meaning they consider it to be more different. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:56, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::Ah, okay, I think I understand where you were going with this now. <s>Regarding Color Splash, do any other color variants in that game have any different stats or function in battle? If not, then these Pokeys can't fit in that mold at all and there's nothing we can do for them based on consistency alone.</s> (Nevermind, checked and the colored Shy Guys and Snifits are all identical to each other - consistency isn't a factor here.) Frankly though, I wouldn't consider these purely color variants anyway, one's spiky and one's not. Regarding Gloombas, yes, they aren't the same as the underground SMB Goombas (officially, anyway) but were clearly a reference to that design. I think the fact that both Pokeys are present and co-exist in the newer Paper Mario games shows that they were intended to be separate here, I'm not really sure how you can argue that they're the same thing. As for your point that "they consider it to be more different", it's been obvious for years but we now know from Origami King interviews that the team's ability to add "new" things to the Mario universe has been essentially halted, so I doubt they could've differentiated them more if they wanted to. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:09, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::The Whistle Snifits at least have different battle effects in that their summons are different, and all of the color variations have different quotes and paint drops. The problem with the Gloomba argument is that in SS, they are equally considered to simply be "Pokey," so much like my question on the Big Boo boss page, what criteria for the context of SS (not CS) is used to decide which one is the "main" one (particularly given the green design predates and is functionally more basic than the yellow one)? It's possible that at some point in development it was intended as a separate thing, but in the context of the finished product, that isn't the case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:18, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::[[Whistle Snifit|And we split the Whistle Snifits.]] Battle quotes probably wouldn't be relevant in splits or merges since that's just flavor text as far as I'm aware. Not sure about paint drops, I don't think we have any precedent on that. The closest comparison would be items, I guess? I think it's obvious which Pokey should be the main one, and that's the design that's been consistently used by Nintendo in every appearance since NSMBWii, and don't forget that the modern Paper Mario series (and honestly, the Mario franchise as a whole) is very stuck to consistent depictions of basically everything, unlike the early Wii era and earlier. It makes more sense to split off the one based on a design that hadn't been used in in almost 2 decades by Sticker Star outside of remakes than what is clearly Nintendo's current and consistent depiction of what a Pokey is. I still find the Gloomba situation comparable regardless of them not getting names originally, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:28, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::Take away the flower and SMG/2's Pokey Heads (and in production, normal Pokeys, which are ''red'' in the final) have that design.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:30, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::Huh, I honestly forgot about the Pokey Head. However, it's still important to note that SMG predates NSMBWii which is where the design standardization began. Note that this was the same game to decide to bring back Koopas walking on all fours and had the weird Mini Goombas and Spiny Cheep Cheep that acts more like a Porcupuffer. Other than SMG2, where they didn't change any of the design oddities because who knows, we haven't really gotten any games with bizarre or off-model designs since then, including for Pokeys (correct me if I'm wrong). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:42, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::Also what did you mean "we split the Whistle Snifits?" They're all there on that page. I'm not saying to merge the ''statboxes'', just the pages. Like we do with other pure color variations, stat-variations-at-different-points-in-the-game (like Goombas in PiT), and recurring bosses. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:40, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::Oh, I misunderstood what you were trying to say there, my bad. I thought you were suggesting Whistle Snifits would/should also be merged with Snifits based on our coverage, not that all of the color variants of Whistle Snifits were merged to their own page. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:08, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| Statistics in both games between Pokey and Green Pokey are different, so that's a no for me. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:59, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Not really any more different than the Shy Guy/Snifit colors... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:07, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::Except every colored Shy Guy and Snifit has the exact same HP, exact same attacks, exact same attack power, and reacts exactly the same to all of Mario's attacks. Pokeys actually have differentiation in most of those depending on the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:13, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Why should we merge Green Pokey? [[User:Benjaminkirsc|Benjaminkirsc]] ([[User talk:Benjaminkirsc|talk]]) 16:24, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::As explained above, they're both just called Pokey in Sticker Star, these are obviously based on the original Pokeys in SMB2, and the other colored enemies in Color Splash are merged. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:29, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::However, it should be noted that in Sticker Star Green Pokeys have higher HP than normal Pokeys, in Color Splash Green Pokeys have a higher attack power than normal Pokeys for all but one attack, and in both games, they're functionally different in battle - the normal Pokeys act as spiked enemies, the green ones do not. Meanwhile, the color variants of Shy Guys and Snifits in Color Splash are 100% identical in combat, only differing in the amount of paint dropped and battle quotes, and Whistle Snifits are the same, with the additional difference that the blue and red ones summon Boomerang or Fire Bros. respectively rather than the standard Hammer Bro. that the green and yellow ones summon. "Consistency" with them is impossible since it's not actually the same situation. Furthermore, [[Gloomba|this isn't the first time a Paper Mario enemy is obviously based on a design that wasn't initially its own species]]. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:57, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::Thing with Gloomba is it was never identified simply as Goomba in the PM series nor is its name a simple color identifier, making it not a full analogue either. I also question why [[Red Spike Top]] was voted to stay split when it ''is'' functionally identical to normal Spike Top, much like the CS Shies. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:46, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::True, but your statement simplified it down to "clearly based on design = merge with design". For Red Spike Top... Yeah, I got nothing. Only thing I can think of is that it's left split for consistency since every other TTYD enemy is actually a creative variant with stat differentiation and not affected by variant mergers. As far as I'm aware, the only merged TTYD enemies are the Iron Clefts, which the game differentiates even less than Spike Top and Red Spike Top - the only difference is that the green one has a single extra line in its Tattle Log entry (not to be confused with the Tattle itself). Either way, that's a discussion for another time and place. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:16, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::KP Koopa too, though that has some plot relevance (already covered on KP Pete's page) and a different variable name than a color. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:39, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| The main thing you should take into account is that Green Pokeys have actual differences from Pokeys which are retained in both of their appearances (can be jumped on without iron jump and different stats). Shy Guy colors meanwhile often behave the same in most of their appearances, even outside of RPGs. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}}
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| :I think the fact that "Green Pokey" only applies to CS should be taken into account as well, though. It was treated on equal terms as yellow Pokey in SS, regardless of stat differences. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:23, October 17, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::It's pretty obvious that the green Pokey in Sticker Star and the Green Pokey in Color Splash are meant to be the same thing, though... --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:21, October 18, 2020 (EDT)
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| Bumping this with another piece of evidence supporting a merge. In ''Sticker Star'', once all the battle stickers are placed in the Sticker Museum, the player gains access to a viewfinder/pay-binoculars thing where they can watch enemies' animations (with a few exceptions, such as shiny and folded variations, Paint and Clip Guys, the Boo subtypes, the Murals, and Fire Piranha) as they fight a cutout of Mario. Thing is, the Pokeys share a scene, with the only other view to feature more than one enemy at a time being the Sombrero Guys, who have the whole band together likely due to being functionally identical anyways, and Scuttlebugs, where for whatever reason there's two. Things like the Spikes and the Hammer Bro types show a different slide for each. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:55, July 18, 2021 (EDT)
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| :They do both share the exact same attacks unlike the examples you listed (and name - not sure if that's relevant for how the Sticker Museum organizes itself or not), so, makes sense I guess. I don't think it's that important or outweighs the reasons for keeping them split, personally. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:57, November 21, 2021 (EST)
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| What about [[SMM2]] in ''Super Mario Bros'' style and SMB3 it is just a pokey. {{User:Bubbasour11/sig}}
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| :This discussion, and page for that matter, is specifically about the green Pokey in Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Color Splash. Super Mario Maker is irrelevant here. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 04:32, July 18, 2021 (EDT)
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| Ok new point: if we do not have a page for this [[File:NSMBW Fruit Pokey.png|20px]] than we do not need one for this [[File:PMCS_Green_Pokey.png|20px]] {{User:Bubbasour11/sig}}
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| :One's a form of an enemy that happens during the "bah"s of the music in NSMBW, and the other is a separate named entity. Don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison. [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 12:43, November 21, 2021 (EST)
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| ::Yeah, that's not really a good comparison. It's not a separate type of Pokey, just two forms that regular Pokeys switch through. Splitting those would be more comparable to splitting, say, Rex's squished form. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:12, November 21, 2021 (EST)
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| :::I want to bring up that no one responded to my (actually valid) point about the Sticker Museum. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:41, November 21, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::Color Splash (which I should point out is the more recent one) does seperate them in that regard however. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:48, November 21, 2021 (EST)
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| ::::Uh um, green pokeys were called pokeys too, so yes, Sir.[[User:Arthur2|Arthur2]] ([[User talk:Arthur2|talk]]) 14:27, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
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