Editing Talk:Grab Block

==Merge ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' Ice Block with ''Super Mario World'' Grab Block (proposal)==

See "rebooted" section for details. In essence, the White Block from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' is identical in every way with the Grab Block from ''Super Mario World'', with both being suggested as icy blocks that seemingly melt in Mario's hands and lacking the slippery platform traction of ordinary Ice Blocks, with which they're distinguished. As such, I think it would be a mistake to keep the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' version merged with the Ice Block article when the ''Super Mario World'' version is much more appropriate. Two main options are presented in this proposal. The first will simply merge White Block with Grab Block, which is a more self-explanatory name. The second will still merge, but make White Block the current name, which would be closer to policy due to being the most recent in-game name as of ''Super Mario Advance 4''. A third option merges Grab Block with the Ice Block article, although I'm not sure I particularly recommend this since that article could probably stand to have a thing or two split already. A fourth option fully splits White Block as its own article. In any case, an <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> will be added to note the "White Block" Semisolid Platform.

==Merge White Block with Grab Block==

As WilliamFrog points out above, while there is technically no proof that the [[White Block]] and Grab Block are the same, they behave almost identically and differences in appearance can be chalked up to the standard blocks that they share graphics with in both games being different, would be unintuitive to the average wiki reader, and results in articles that largely contain the same information. The two blocks also appeared in back-to-back games in the main Mario series that were developed by many of the same individuals, so it is certainly no coincidence. Merging the two pages would almost certainly result in a more streamlined wiki experience for editors and readers alike, and will not result in the loss of any ease of understanding or important information.

#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all in this and the previous proposal.

#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} This is slip-sliding into a notion I can't agree with. ''Super Mario World'' starting development with a plurality of assets and concepts from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' is the only "evidence" of these two types of blocks being one and the same, and that does not override the age-old principle that "conceptually identical =/= identical overall". There are a significant number of subjects across the franchise that are the exact same thing on a functional level, some even appearing together in the same game ([[Aqua Man]]/[[Golem]], [[Sour Dodo]]/[[Cheesy Chester]] etc.), yet are kept split for a good number of reasons.

====Comments====

::Wouldn't that just be swapping a conjecture template for a part conjecture template? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:33, July 10, 2023 (EDT)

::I'd agree that the Gray Brick Block could be merged with Rock Block due to similar appearance and functionality; I was merely pointing out that it'd be weird if we merged White Block to Grab Block but kept Gray Brick Block split. That said, there's a possibility to split Cracked blocks from Rock Blocks, or at least do a major clean-up, because at the moment, Rock Block appears to be an umbrella article for hard blocks that aren't necessarily [[Hard Block]]s. {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:22, July 15, 2023 (EDT)

:The color changing from light blue to dark blue is not any stranger than mini goombas turning from brown to yellow, and that happened within a single species. Neither is really that transformative as redesigns go. Some sources claim white blocks are ice because they slide, even though Mario does not slip on them, they are not destroyed by fire, and they can be found in places it would be very unusual to see ice (such as deserts). A valid reason for changing the color to dark blue would be to prevent misleading people into thinking they are ice or otherwise ice-like.<br>As for the name argument, you refuted my claim that there is no clear and definitive name by providing multiple official sources with conflicting names. It looks to me like the names from the sources are conjectural, invented by the writers on the fly in absence of an official consensus. Notice how every name describes an aspect of the block, but it's a different aspect each time. If you need evidence they were just lazy with names back then, you hardly need to look farther than [[Fire Nipper Plant]].<br>Also notable is that in SMAS SMB3, white blocks no longer even have white in their palette and are fully blue, but Peach's letter still says "white". It casts some doubt on whether they are even the subject of the letter. It would be strange to name an object after a characteristic so unimportant that a remake changed it and the devs didn't notice. It would also be strange for official sources to disagree on the name of an object whose name is stated in the game itself. On top of that, Peach is not reputable for using proper names; she calls boos "ghosts", fire bros "thieves", and every item she gives you a "jewel". It would not be out of line for "white block" to just be expressing the fact that it is white, and not implying that it's the official name. On that account, she could just as well be talking about note blocks or even white semisolids. Note blocks in particular do contain magic powers sometimes.<br>Compare the carryable ice blocks from NSMBWII: They serve a similar purpose, being grabbable terrain that can be used as projectiles. However, they are slippery, are only found in ice levels, are breakable by normal means, and do not spectacularly expire when held. This is what an homage looks like. They are inspired by the old blocks, but they do not try to be the same thing, instead opting to take inspiration from them while behaving closer to empty Ice Flower blocks.<br>Gray bricks have been on my mind recently too, I wasn't going to say anything until after this was over but I do also support merging them with rock block. Also yeah, the rock blocks on that page are much more different than the blocks we're debating on. We're here talking about shades of blue, and they're not even in the same series, much less look similar or act the same. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 08:53, July 11, 2023 (EDT)

::You can talk all day about the similarities between the two blocks and how the Grab Block was derived from the White Block, but it doesn't change the fact that merging them would be speculation without an official source backing it up. I always prefer to merge if an actual official source proves they're the same rather than based on our own unsupported observations of similarity. In this case, we instead seem to have an official source telling us that they're different (the Perfect Ban Mario Character Dajiten as Arend mentioned). I'm confused how the English names being untrustworthy has any relevance to merging the articles, and I genuinely don't understand what you're getting at with NSMBW ice blocks (if anything, doesn't one White Block derivative being split support a split for the other one as well)? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:43, July 11, 2023 (EDT)

:::::::::But a simple change of spritework is very usual to happen between games. Look at hard blocks for instance, which went from unidentified brown material to wood to grey stone to brown material again to grey stone again. Frankly the "same thing" is an arbitrary qualification. Are the grey stone blocks in SMW and the wood blocks in SMB3 really the "same thing"? Probably not. They're made of entirely different material, there's no way they're legitimately instances of the same object. They share an article largely because they've both been called "hard blocks", because they are blocks and they are hard, even though they're obviously different flavors of block. Now the names for the carryable blocks are pretty disorganized. You could argue they have different names in each game, but they also have different names in the same game and I'd expect them to get that straight first before you can honestly expect to compare between them. In addition, the names we are working with range from "unsophisticated" to "so blatantly inaccurate we can't tell if they're even talking about what we think they are". Even the artwork is confusing, with [[:File:MariokickSMB3.jpg|this]] seemingly depicting a white block as both a grey brick block and a smooth blue ice block in the same image. It looks to me like they just don't quite have their act together. Beyond that, they aren't any more different than the hard blocks are, spritework included. Since the official materials are so all over the place, I'd argue in this case it's based on whether the developers consider them to be distinct objects, and it doesn't seem like they do. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 07:51, July 16, 2023 (EDT)

::::::::::"The same thing" is not an arbitrary distinction, it's what splits and merges are based on. Things that are the same should share a page, things that are different should be on different pages, things where we're not sure should default to being on different pages to avoid speculation. You keep bringing up naming inconsistencies to suggest we should default to merging them, but that's absolutely the wrong approach in my opinion - it's far more speculative and assumptive than splitting them is. "I'd argue in this case it's based on whether the developers consider them to be distinct objects" - and so would I, that's what I mean when I say "different" and "the same". In this sense, those different Hard Blocks are the same thing, as Mario Maker tells us (and also in the context of Mario it's not too outlandish for blocks of different materials between games to be the same blocks, suspension of disbelief and all that), while there's nothing telling us that the White Block and Grab Block are the same thing beyond speculation. That is the reason they should be split, and it is what sets this situation apart from Hard Blocks and the other examples. The problem with how you keep saying "there's other merged things that are more different" is that you keep ignoring how there is often still official proof of those things being the same, which doesn't exist here. The reason I'm so opposed to this isn't really because I think these blocks are wildly dissimilar to each other - if there was a more direct official confirmation that they're the same (a Mario Maker game, a guidebook, anything), I'd probably support this, but there's not, and the wiki's established precedent is to merge only if we know they're the same, not because they're similar (see the links in my earlier comments). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:35, July 17, 2023 (EDT)

I am abstaining here, but I feel [[Blue Coin]] should be brought up, as it originally used an off-white cyan color before becoming a deeper blue down the line - exactly like the grabbable blocks (especially when one considers the unused blue coin in SMW, meaning both objects share a palette across both games). Main issue I have, though, is it doesn't factor in the ice blocks in NSMBW in any way despite the SMB3 blocks sometimes being described as ice blocks themselves. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:44, July 13, 2023 (EDT)

:I think the NSMBW ice blocks would at least deserve a mention on the merged article, as they currently do on both the white block and grab block articles. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 20:12, July 13, 2023 (EDT)