Editing Talk:Grab Block
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==Merge ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' Ice Block with ''Super Mario World'' Grab Block (proposal)== | ==Merge ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' Ice Block with ''Super Mario World'' Grab Block (proposal)== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|3-1-0-6-1|Split White Block}} | ||
See "rebooted" section for details. In essence, the White Block from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' is identical in every way with the Grab Block from ''Super Mario World'', with both being suggested as icy blocks that seemingly melt in Mario's hands and lacking the slippery platform traction of ordinary Ice Blocks, with which they're distinguished. As such, I think it would be a mistake to keep the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' version merged with the Ice Block article when the ''Super Mario World'' version is much more appropriate. Two main options are presented in this proposal. The first will simply merge White Block with Grab Block, which is a more self-explanatory name. The second will still merge, but make White Block the current name, which would be closer to policy due to being the most recent in-game name as of ''Super Mario Advance 4''. A third option merges Grab Block with the Ice Block article, although I'm not sure I particularly recommend this since that article could probably stand to have a thing or two split already. A fourth option fully splits White Block as its own article. In any case, an <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> will be added to note the "White Block" Semisolid Platform. | See "rebooted" section for details. In essence, the White Block from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' is identical in every way with the Grab Block from ''Super Mario World'', with both being suggested as icy blocks that seemingly melt in Mario's hands and lacking the slippery platform traction of ordinary Ice Blocks, with which they're distinguished. As such, I think it would be a mistake to keep the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' version merged with the Ice Block article when the ''Super Mario World'' version is much more appropriate. Two main options are presented in this proposal. The first will simply merge White Block with Grab Block, which is a more self-explanatory name. The second will still merge, but make White Block the current name, which would be closer to policy due to being the most recent in-game name as of ''Super Mario Advance 4''. A third option merges Grab Block with the Ice Block article, although I'm not sure I particularly recommend this since that article could probably stand to have a thing or two split already. A fourth option fully splits White Block as its own article. In any case, an <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> will be added to note the "White Block" Semisolid Platform. | ||
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==Merge White Block with Grab Block== | ==Merge White Block with Grab Block== | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
As WilliamFrog points out above, while there is technically no proof that the [[White Block]] and Grab Block are the same, they behave almost identically and differences in appearance can be chalked up to the standard blocks that they share graphics with in both games being different, would be unintuitive to the average wiki reader, and results in articles that largely contain the same information. The two blocks also appeared in back-to-back games in the main Mario series that were developed by many of the same individuals, so it is certainly no coincidence. Merging the two pages would almost certainly result in a more streamlined wiki experience for editors and readers alike, and will not result in the loss of any ease of understanding or important information. | As WilliamFrog points out above, while there is technically no proof that the [[White Block]] and Grab Block are the same, they behave almost identically and differences in appearance can be chalked up to the standard blocks that they share graphics with in both games being different, would be unintuitive to the average wiki reader, and results in articles that largely contain the same information. The two blocks also appeared in back-to-back games in the main Mario series that were developed by many of the same individuals, so it is certainly no coincidence. Merging the two pages would almost certainly result in a more streamlined wiki experience for editors and readers alike, and will not result in the loss of any ease of understanding or important information. | ||
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#{{User|WilliamFrog}} Their functions are not just similar, they are identical in every measurable way. Both of them have also been referred to as "blue block" at a point in time. However, neither iteration has a clear and definitive name, as they are minor items in old games, and Nintendo did not try very hard with naming back then. It is worth noting that in SMB3, there is no sprite palette that resembles the color the blocks use while static, so it flashes probably to make the inevitable color change look intentional. SMW in on the more powerful SNES and is able to match the color when held, yet they chose to make it flash anyway, most likely for parity with the SMB3 appearance. Rotten mushrooms and poison mushrooms are more different, as they have substantial differences in behavior, and have appeared in new enough games to have unambiguous names. There are many occasions of similar items sharing the same page, even ones more different than the two block types. [[Hammer]] documents every type of hammer in any game, from the swung mallets in Donkey Kong to the thrown claw hammers from Hammer Bros, which are undoubtedly different items. [[Lift]] features various types of moving platforms, even visually distinct ones, and ones with completely different names or no names. This includes the scaffold-like lifts traditional to Mario games, but also the differently named "elevators" in Mario 64, and the barely named "moving platforms" in Mario Odyssey, which look different in every kingdom. [[Mini Goomba]] documents several different types of small Goomba, from the teeny harmless type that climbs on you, to the slightly shorter regular Goombas in the Mario Galaxies, to the bright yellow ones in Mario Odyssey. If these pages are able to have multiple clearly distinct objects within them, then surely the much more similar carryable blocks can share a page too. | #{{User|WilliamFrog}} Their functions are not just similar, they are identical in every measurable way. Both of them have also been referred to as "blue block" at a point in time. However, neither iteration has a clear and definitive name, as they are minor items in old games, and Nintendo did not try very hard with naming back then. It is worth noting that in SMB3, there is no sprite palette that resembles the color the blocks use while static, so it flashes probably to make the inevitable color change look intentional. SMW in on the more powerful SNES and is able to match the color when held, yet they chose to make it flash anyway, most likely for parity with the SMB3 appearance. Rotten mushrooms and poison mushrooms are more different, as they have substantial differences in behavior, and have appeared in new enough games to have unambiguous names. There are many occasions of similar items sharing the same page, even ones more different than the two block types. [[Hammer]] documents every type of hammer in any game, from the swung mallets in Donkey Kong to the thrown claw hammers from Hammer Bros, which are undoubtedly different items. [[Lift]] features various types of moving platforms, even visually distinct ones, and ones with completely different names or no names. This includes the scaffold-like lifts traditional to Mario games, but also the differently named "elevators" in Mario 64, and the barely named "moving platforms" in Mario Odyssey, which look different in every kingdom. [[Mini Goomba]] documents several different types of small Goomba, from the teeny harmless type that climbs on you, to the slightly shorter regular Goombas in the Mario Galaxies, to the bright yellow ones in Mario Odyssey. If these pages are able to have multiple clearly distinct objects within them, then surely the much more similar carryable blocks can share a page too. | ||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} This is clearly a carryover from when ''Super Mario Bros. 4'' had more ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' elements, and I still lean towards the line of thought that they are not transformative enough. Also, I want to point out: the Big Boo boss from the Donut Secret House in ''Super Mario World'' returns in World-e's Doors o' Plenty and Vexing Doors levels, and outside of the slightly different arrangement of the floor blocks and two Boos, it's set up as close to the original battle as possible - only with Grab Blocks swapped for White Blocks. Mind, e-Reader content brings back a lot of elements from other ''Mario'' games (even things like a different form of Flimsy Lift), so it would have been a total no-brainer to make a graphical swap for the blocks here to be even closer, but they chose not to go that far. If they're treating the blocks as game aesthetic like the design of the Boo enemies, I think this has to count for something. | #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} This is clearly a carryover from when ''Super Mario Bros. 4'' had more ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' elements, and I still lean towards the line of thought that they are not transformative enough. Also, I want to point out: the Big Boo boss from the Donut Secret House in ''Super Mario World'' returns in World-e's Doors o' Plenty and Vexing Doors levels, and outside of the slightly different arrangement of the floor blocks and two Boos, it's set up as close to the original battle as possible - only with Grab Blocks swapped for White Blocks. Mind, e-Reader content brings back a lot of elements from other ''Mario'' games (even things like a different form of Flimsy Lift), so it would have been a total no-brainer to make a graphical swap for the blocks here to be even closer, but they chose not to go that far. If they're treating the blocks as game aesthetic like the design of the Boo enemies, I think this has to count for something. | ||
====Oppose==== | ====Oppose==== | ||
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#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, but especially Arend's point here--unless we get some new game that directly conflates the two as being one in the same, we should probably err on the side of caution and operate under the assumption Grab Blocks are to Rotating Blocks what White Blocks are to Brick Blocks. Seeing as we don't merge any of the other grabbable blocks at the moment (with the marked exception of those weird grabbable Ice Blocks from NSMBW, which are just part of the Ice Block article), this is also generally more consistent/easily understood. | #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, but especially Arend's point here--unless we get some new game that directly conflates the two as being one in the same, we should probably err on the side of caution and operate under the assumption Grab Blocks are to Rotating Blocks what White Blocks are to Brick Blocks. Seeing as we don't merge any of the other grabbable blocks at the moment (with the marked exception of those weird grabbable Ice Blocks from NSMBW, which are just part of the Ice Block article), this is also generally more consistent/easily understood. | ||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all, especially regarding the examples of similar situations, such as the Poison and Rotten Mushrooms, that have already been brought up. | #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all, especially regarding the examples of similar situations, such as the Poison and Rotten Mushrooms, that have already been brought up. | ||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
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:Regardless of whether or not this passes: why not? We generally minimize conjecture when we can, and if ''Super Mario Advance 4'''s Gray Brick Blocks are in line with the newer, ''Super Mario'' incarnation of Rock Blocks, I don't think there's any harm in knocking down a conjectural article. Besides, there are arguably two or three different entities within the Rock Block article: the cracked ones mostly seen in ''Mario & Wario'' and the ''Yoshi'' franchise, the cracked ones with bandages in ''Wario World'', and gray Brick Blocks. Each with somewhat different functionality, and certainly more diverse than the differences between White Block and Grab Block, I'd say. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:53, July 9, 2023 (EDT) | :Regardless of whether or not this passes: why not? We generally minimize conjecture when we can, and if ''Super Mario Advance 4'''s Gray Brick Blocks are in line with the newer, ''Super Mario'' incarnation of Rock Blocks, I don't think there's any harm in knocking down a conjectural article. Besides, there are arguably two or three different entities within the Rock Block article: the cracked ones mostly seen in ''Mario & Wario'' and the ''Yoshi'' franchise, the cracked ones with bandages in ''Wario World'', and gray Brick Blocks. Each with somewhat different functionality, and certainly more diverse than the differences between White Block and Grab Block, I'd say. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:53, July 9, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::Wouldn't that just be swapping a conjecture template for a part conjecture template? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:33, July 10, 2023 (EDT) | ::Wouldn't that just be swapping a conjecture template for a part conjecture template? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:33, July 10, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:The color changing from light blue to dark blue is not any stranger than mini goombas turning from brown to yellow, and that happened within a single species. Neither is really that transformative as redesigns go. Some sources claim white blocks are ice because they slide, even though Mario does not slip on them, they are not destroyed by fire, and they can be found in places it would be very unusual to see ice (such as deserts). A valid reason for changing the color to dark blue would be to prevent misleading people into thinking they are ice or otherwise ice-like.<br>As for the name argument, you refuted my claim that there is no clear and definitive name by providing multiple official sources with conflicting names. It looks to me like the names from the sources are conjectural, invented by the writers on the fly in absence of an official consensus. Notice how every name describes an aspect of the block, but it's a different aspect each time. If you need evidence they were just lazy with names back then, you hardly need to look farther than [[Fire Nipper Plant]].<br>Also notable is that in SMAS SMB3, white blocks no longer even have white in their palette and are fully blue, but Peach's letter still says "white". It casts some doubt on whether they are even the subject of the letter. It would be strange to name an object after a characteristic so unimportant that a remake changed it and the devs didn't notice. It would also be strange for official sources to disagree on the name of an object whose name is stated in the game itself. On top of that, Peach is not reputable for using proper names; she calls boos "ghosts", fire bros "thieves", and every item she gives you a "jewel". It would not be out of line for "white block" to just be expressing the fact that it is white, and not implying that it's the official name. On that account, she could just as well be talking about note blocks or even white semisolids. Note blocks in particular do contain magic powers sometimes.<br>Compare the carryable ice blocks from NSMBWII: They serve a similar purpose, being grabbable terrain that can be used as projectiles. However, they are slippery, are only found in ice levels, are breakable by normal means, and do not spectacularly expire when held. This is what an homage looks like. They are inspired by the old blocks, but they do not try to be the same thing, instead opting to take inspiration from them while behaving closer to empty Ice Flower blocks.<br>Gray bricks have been on my mind recently too, I wasn't going to say anything until after this was over but I do also support merging them with rock block. Also yeah, the rock blocks on that page are much more different than the blocks we're debating on. We're here talking about shades of blue, and they're not even in the same series, much less look similar or act the same. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 08:53, July 11, 2023 (EDT) | :The color changing from light blue to dark blue is not any stranger than mini goombas turning from brown to yellow, and that happened within a single species. Neither is really that transformative as redesigns go. Some sources claim white blocks are ice because they slide, even though Mario does not slip on them, they are not destroyed by fire, and they can be found in places it would be very unusual to see ice (such as deserts). A valid reason for changing the color to dark blue would be to prevent misleading people into thinking they are ice or otherwise ice-like.<br>As for the name argument, you refuted my claim that there is no clear and definitive name by providing multiple official sources with conflicting names. It looks to me like the names from the sources are conjectural, invented by the writers on the fly in absence of an official consensus. Notice how every name describes an aspect of the block, but it's a different aspect each time. If you need evidence they were just lazy with names back then, you hardly need to look farther than [[Fire Nipper Plant]].<br>Also notable is that in SMAS SMB3, white blocks no longer even have white in their palette and are fully blue, but Peach's letter still says "white". It casts some doubt on whether they are even the subject of the letter. It would be strange to name an object after a characteristic so unimportant that a remake changed it and the devs didn't notice. It would also be strange for official sources to disagree on the name of an object whose name is stated in the game itself. On top of that, Peach is not reputable for using proper names; she calls boos "ghosts", fire bros "thieves", and every item she gives you a "jewel". It would not be out of line for "white block" to just be expressing the fact that it is white, and not implying that it's the official name. On that account, she could just as well be talking about note blocks or even white semisolids. Note blocks in particular do contain magic powers sometimes.<br>Compare the carryable ice blocks from NSMBWII: They serve a similar purpose, being grabbable terrain that can be used as projectiles. However, they are slippery, are only found in ice levels, are breakable by normal means, and do not spectacularly expire when held. This is what an homage looks like. They are inspired by the old blocks, but they do not try to be the same thing, instead opting to take inspiration from them while behaving closer to empty Ice Flower blocks.<br>Gray bricks have been on my mind recently too, I wasn't going to say anything until after this was over but I do also support merging them with rock block. Also yeah, the rock blocks on that page are much more different than the blocks we're debating on. We're here talking about shades of blue, and they're not even in the same series, much less look similar or act the same. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 08:53, July 11, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::You can talk all day about the similarities between the two blocks and how the Grab Block was derived from the White Block, but it doesn't change the fact that merging them would be speculation without an official source backing it up. I always prefer to merge if an actual official source proves they're the same rather than based on our own unsupported observations of similarity. In this case, we instead seem to have an official source telling us that they're different (the Perfect Ban Mario Character Dajiten as Arend mentioned). I'm confused how the English names being untrustworthy has any relevance to merging the articles, and I genuinely don't understand what you're getting at with NSMBW ice blocks (if anything, doesn't one White Block derivative being split support a split for the other one as well)? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:43, July 11, 2023 (EDT) | ::You can talk all day about the similarities between the two blocks and how the Grab Block was derived from the White Block, but it doesn't change the fact that merging them would be speculation without an official source backing it up. I always prefer to merge if an actual official source proves they're the same rather than based on our own unsupported observations of similarity. In this case, we instead seem to have an official source telling us that they're different (the Perfect Ban Mario Character Dajiten as Arend mentioned). I'm confused how the English names being untrustworthy has any relevance to merging the articles, and I genuinely don't understand what you're getting at with NSMBW ice blocks (if anything, doesn't one White Block derivative being split support a split for the other one as well)? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:43, July 11, 2023 (EDT) | ||
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:::::@Pseudo that is fair yeah. Admittedly I needed to find a lot of examples to make the gag work so they probably aren't all of equal quality.<br>@Hewer I said ''more'' egregious, not absolutely egregious. I honestly have no opinion on whether most of the examples are ok, but they've been allowed here for a long time, so that should mean this article is not a problem. Shared graphics in a game this old does not actually count for much. The only reason white blocks look like bricks is to save space on the cartridge. Really it is very misleading due to the lack of shared properties with bricks, and they probably would have made it more distinct if they had the resources available. SMW does not have bricks, as they were replaced by rotating blocks, which consequently also changed how white blocks looked. This is not an intentional decision where the developers thought the rotating block appearance was better and changed it on purpose, nor is it a case where they could have kept the brick appearance without defeating the point of reusing graphics in the first place. If the designers of SMW had decided to keep bricks, I guarantee you grab blocks would look like bricks, and we would not be having this debate as it would be very clear they are the same. That said, the only intentional design difference is the color changing from light blue to dark blue, which is very insignificant as redesigns go. There is more difference between the koopa troopas in both games.<br>I should like to mention, the reason they chose bricks and rotating blocks in particular is that the graphics for those exist as both a block and a sprite. Since carryable blocks function as blocks while fixed and sprites when moved, their graphics need to exist in both places. This would cost even more space if they used distinct graphics. Bricks and rotating blocks already have sprites as they use them while bumped, making it a very efficient decision to reuse them. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 15:11, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | :::::@Pseudo that is fair yeah. Admittedly I needed to find a lot of examples to make the gag work so they probably aren't all of equal quality.<br>@Hewer I said ''more'' egregious, not absolutely egregious. I honestly have no opinion on whether most of the examples are ok, but they've been allowed here for a long time, so that should mean this article is not a problem. Shared graphics in a game this old does not actually count for much. The only reason white blocks look like bricks is to save space on the cartridge. Really it is very misleading due to the lack of shared properties with bricks, and they probably would have made it more distinct if they had the resources available. SMW does not have bricks, as they were replaced by rotating blocks, which consequently also changed how white blocks looked. This is not an intentional decision where the developers thought the rotating block appearance was better and changed it on purpose, nor is it a case where they could have kept the brick appearance without defeating the point of reusing graphics in the first place. If the designers of SMW had decided to keep bricks, I guarantee you grab blocks would look like bricks, and we would not be having this debate as it would be very clear they are the same. That said, the only intentional design difference is the color changing from light blue to dark blue, which is very insignificant as redesigns go. There is more difference between the koopa troopas in both games.<br>I should like to mention, the reason they chose bricks and rotating blocks in particular is that the graphics for those exist as both a block and a sprite. Since carryable blocks function as blocks while fixed and sprites when moved, their graphics need to exist in both places. This would cost even more space if they used distinct graphics. Bricks and rotating blocks already have sprites as they use them while bumped, making it a very efficient decision to reuse them. [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 15:11, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | ||
::::::A different appearance is a different appearance, regardless of the intent behind it. While they likely did choose to reuse graphics to save space, that by no means makes their differences some kind of unintentional accident - if they really wanted to, they could have changed the Grab Block design in SMW to match the White Block, I don't think resources were ''that'' limited by the time of the Super NES. And your argument that we would've merged them if they brought back bricks, while likely true, is irrelevant - if they had made them explicitly the same item as the White Block, we also would've merged them, but they didn't, so we didn't. In your particular scenario, we also wouldn't have any such thing as Rotating Blocks, but I can guarantee you we won't be merging those to bricks any time soon. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:39, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | ::::::A different appearance is a different appearance, regardless of the intent behind it. While they likely did choose to reuse graphics to save space, that by no means makes their differences some kind of unintentional accident - if they really wanted to, they could have changed the Grab Block design in SMW to match the White Block, I don't think resources were ''that'' limited by the time of the Super NES. And your argument that we would've merged them if they brought back bricks, while likely true, is irrelevant - if they had made them explicitly the same item as the White Block, we also would've merged them, but they didn't, so we didn't. In your particular scenario, we also wouldn't have any such thing as Rotating Blocks, but I can guarantee you we won't be merging those to bricks any time soon. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:39, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:::::::I think you're missing the point. The convenience of the graphics aligning is the ONLY reason it looks like a brick or rotating block in either game. It has nothing to do with the actual design of the carryable block. The SMB3 devs did not say "it should look like bricks because it is a type of brick", and the | :::::::I think you're missing the point. The convenience of the graphics aligning is the ONLY reason it looks like a brick or rotating block in either game. It has nothing to do with the actual design of the carryable block. The SMB3 devs did not say "it should look like bricks because it is a type of brick", and the SMBW devs did not say "we should change grab blocks to look like rotating blocks because it makes more sense". [[User:WilliamFrog|WilliamFrog]] ([[User talk:WilliamFrog|talk]]) 19:11, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | ||
I am abstaining here, but I feel [[Blue Coin]] should be brought up, as it originally used an off-white cyan color before becoming a deeper blue down the line - exactly like the grabbable blocks (especially when one considers the unused blue coin in SMW, meaning both objects share a palette across both games). Main issue I have, though, is it doesn't factor in the ice blocks in NSMBW in any way despite the SMB3 blocks sometimes being described as ice blocks themselves. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:44, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | I am abstaining here, but I feel [[Blue Coin]] should be brought up, as it originally used an off-white cyan color before becoming a deeper blue down the line - exactly like the grabbable blocks (especially when one considers the unused blue coin in SMW, meaning both objects share a palette across both games). Main issue I have, though, is it doesn't factor in the ice blocks in NSMBW in any way despite the SMB3 blocks sometimes being described as ice blocks themselves. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:44, July 13, 2023 (EDT) | ||
